Do the other Angels know they're going towards Lilith, or do they think it's Adam like Kaworu did?

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Re: Do the other Angels know they're going towards Lilith, or do they think it's Adam like Kaworu did?

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Postby dzzthink » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:54 am

I think Rei and Kaworu were created or processed but they are not 'DNA' clones since they are also made up of the same particle-wave matter as the Evangelion and Lillith. This cloning method is not the standard somatic cell nuclear transfer that would produce biological clones. My personal thinking is that Rei was organically created from Eva-01's core, which contains Yui's data (not DNA) or they took a part of Lillith out and infused that with Eva-01 (much like they did for creating Evangelion). Therefore she looks like Yui and has her imprint, but not necessarily her DNA. In the absence of using actual DNA, this derivation process' is why Rei seems to have qualities of Yui such as her 'smell' and 'instincts', much like how EVa-01 has her smell and program.

I agree with you that there is no clear explanation for how Lillith's soul was transported into Rei, although since Rei could have been part of Lillith beforehand and this means she naturally has its soul (she was made how Evangelions were made from Lillith by being torn off from its bottom half).

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Re: Do the other Angels know they're going towards Lilith, or do they think it's Adam like Kaworu did?

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Postby Zusuchan » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:36 am

BusterMachine4 wrote:
You think there were no hints that Kaworu had conflict between his Adam and Lilin sides (if you insist that Angels and humans aren’t accurate terms),

I didn't say that. You seemed to use your own definition of Angels and humans to say there's a clear divide between the two, which is the reason Kaworu could be argued to have an Angelic/Adam and a human/Lilin side. What I pointed out was that an Angel is already a human, while a human is already an Angel-i.e. there's no clear divide between an Angel and a human.
About the fact that Kaworu never says it outright though, Anno is no stranger to implying things instead of outright saying them.

And I don't see implications towards that.
I always assumed that there were just some extra members we hadn’t seen until them.

How much sense would it make for there to be three extra Seele members who literally only appear once during the entire series, and that's to talk with Kaworu? Where are they the rest of the time? The argument that Kaworu's not talking to Seele creates a lot of questions, but makes more sense than the idea that three Seele members just didn't consider anything else but talking with Kaworu important-unless you want to argue Kaworu's replaying a past conversation in his head, in which case we have to assume Anno added three monoliths...because and gave no other hints as to their meaning.

I'm not saying your general thesis is wrong per se and certainly there's a lot to be had from differing viewpoints in Eva, but personally it just doesn't make sense, relies way too much on illogical assumptions and ignoring the intricacies of the show and has a few holes in it. I'm willing to stop this discussion, though.

Berserk EVA-02: While ep.16 was instead named after Kierkegaard's book and the idea that his works in general might have held some influence over Eva makes perfect sense, I'm not that sure that the title of ep.16 can be used to argue that Kaworu had a conflict between his Angel and human side (not that I believe he had such clear-cut distinctions). While he had a Lilin body coupled with Adam's partial soul, that's not indicative of a conflict per se and anyway, the association you make seems a bit far-reaching.

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Re: Do the other Angels know they're going towards Lilith, or do they think it's Adam like Kaworu did?

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Postby Berserk EVA-02 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:14 pm

View Original Postdzzthink#905842 wrote:^
I think this philosophy provides a lot of context for the episode. The dualism for Kaworu is hinted at very indirectly but I think there is a larger theme at play regarding his development. It seems the episode focuses not only on his relationship with Shinji but on humanity itself. Kaworu often makes remarks about humans in the third person, almost as though he were analyzing them himself.

I absolutely agree. I must note that it is not just Kaworu that makes such analysis of the Lilim, as Leliel and Armisael do have direct dialogue with the pilots regarding the nature of man and the self which are mesmerizing and very eloquent (though also quite abstract). Arael does act somewhat similarly except that it moreso offers Asuka a mirror of her own psyche's shadow rather than to make any statements or analysis of her psyche.

View Original Postdzzthink#905842 wrote:Interestingly, though episode 16 itself may have some similar scenes, although I can't really say as I have not read this book.

Regarding Episode 16, the Kierkegaardian themes are far more tricky to pinpoint and quite implicit. Kierkegaard's The Sickness unto Death has always been amongst the hardest of philosophical books to understand, and thus often serves as a literary blank slate, which various thinkers can gather their own interpretations of based upon their own thought systems. It seems that this is what happened to Anno in Episode 16. He read Kierkegaard's passages about the nature of the self, and of despair, and this inspired him to reflect on the nature of the self and make his own conclusions. Hence the end result, becomes Leliel's interrogation of Shinji and its fascinating monologue about the nature of the self, where it divises the self between the noumenal self and the phenomenological self, but goes an extra step further by claiming that the phenomenological self is just as real as the noumenal self, thus making both of them things-in-themselves. The dichotomy between the self as it is and the self as it is perceived is very Kantian in its nature, though the conclusion that the self as perceived by others exists within them as things-in-themselves no less real than the noumenal self, certainly goes an extra step further than Kant, into the realm of subjective idealism.

Here is the script as to make my writings less confusing:
Shinji B (OFF):“I am you. People have another self within themselves. The self is always composed of two people.”
Shinji A (OFF):“Two people?”
Shinji B (OFF):“The self which is actually seen, and the self observing that. There are many entities called Shinji Ikari. The other Shinji Ikari that exists in your mind. The Shinji Ikari in Misato Katsuragi's mind, the Shinji in Asuka Sohryu, the Shinji in Rei Ayanami, and the Shinji in Gendo Ikari. All are different Shinji Ikaris, but each of them is a true Shinji Ikari. You are afraid of those Shinji Ikaris in other people's minds.”

This does not relate to Kierkegaard's concept of the self whatsoever, though it does somewhat relate to the former's concept of despair. The sequence makes it clear that Shinji relates his self-image to the way he thinks he is perceived by others. This fallable self-image leads to him experiencing despair, or as Kierkegaard would put it, despair of not being a self.

View Original Postdzzthink#905842 wrote:It's interesting that Kaworu wanted to reside in Eva 2 forever, just like how Yui resides in Eva 1 so that she can preserve humanity's remnants. Both seem to have opposing agendas where Kaworus represents angels and Yui represents humans. This may explain why Kaworu wanted to merge with Adam rather than Lillith since we know that Adam is the progenitor of Angels, whilst Lillith is the progenitor of humans. This is why he feels he was tricked at that moment, although it is unknown what would have happened if he had merged with either Adam or Lillith. He ultimately sides with humans as well since, as previous posts have stated, he had begun to develop human feelings and emotions whilst he took on the human form.

This dichotomy between Yui and Kaworu is quite interesting, I had never considered it. From a simple observatory standpoint Kaworu parallels Rei most closely as both are in a Lilim body and have the spirit of a Seed of Life. But in terms of interests, Kaworu does indeed parallel Yui more, with both interested in the survival of their own Seed's lineage, Kaworu as well as Yui seeking to incorporate their souls into Evangelion units, and both having an affectionate affinity to Shinji which led them to converge their interests into the survival of Lilim.

Merged double post - Blockio

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:Berserk EVA-02: While ep.16 was instead named after Kierkegaard's book and the idea that his works in general might have held some influence over Eva makes perfect sense, I'm not that sure that the title of ep.16 can be used to argue that Kaworu had a conflict between his Angel and human side (not that I believe he had such clear-cut distinctions). While he had a Lilin body coupled with Adam's partial soul, that's not indicative of a conflict per se and anyway, the association you make seems a bit far-reaching.

I do not see how such a conclusion is far-reaching. With Hideaki Anno quoting Kierkegaard's The Sickness unto Death and portraying certain themes in relation to Kierkegaard's notion of despair within the show, it is most likely that he has read the book. Kaworu Nagisa is the embodiment of the self as described by Kierkegaard in The Sickness unto Death, as he as a character is the relation between his finite Lilim body and his infinite soul of Adam, and he is in an internal conflict, affectionately gravitating towards Lilim as well as seeking their annihilation. I do not understand how you can claim that a character possessing the body of a Lilim and the soul of Adam is not indicative of a conflict, considering that the primary subject of the series is Lilith's lineage vs Adam's lineage, and Kaworu explicitly showing that he is conflicted between his love for Lilim and his fate of annihilating them during his scenes when descending into and entering the Terminal Dogma.

With the presupposition that Hideaki Anno has read the book in mind, and Kaworu Nagisa as a character being very congruent with the concept of the self as described in The Sickness unto Death, I think if anything, what is far-reaching is to conclude that a character being the embodiment of a concept discussed in a book mentioned already mentioned in the show which the character features in, is just a coincidence with no meaningful causality between the two.

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Re: Do the other Angels know they're going towards Lilith, or do they think it's Adam like Kaworu did?

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:21 pm

I got a better idea, "Lilith" and "Adam" were originally one being and somewhere down the line there was a division between them, the reason the angels confuse Lilith and Adam is because they are two sides of the same coin. Whatever is emitted that draws their attention is the same.
Last edited by ChaddyManPrime on Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do the other Angels know they're going towards Lilith, or do they think it's Adam like Kaworu did?

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Postby Zusuchan » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:26 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if that was something originally intended.

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Re: Do the other Angels know they're going towards Lilith, or do they think it's Adam like Kaworu did?

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Postby Berserker » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:58 am

As a matter of fact, it was originally intended like so. But then it got scrapped in the end. thread/20361/An-Older-Version-of-Evas-Lore/

Please ignore my idiotic posts back then. Those were some weird times I was going through, and I totally regret everything I'd posted back then.
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Re: Do the other Angels know they're going towards Lilith, or do they think it's Adam like Kaworu did?

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Postby Zusuchan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:05 pm

Damn, man, I forgot all about that thread! October seems like such a long time ago...

Berserker: Your posts back then never seemed bad for me and we've all been through hard times, so I personally think you have no reason to be so self-deprecating. You're one of the best contributors on this forum as far as I'm concerned!


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