This might be a silly question, but I was looking at the misconceptions page of the wiki and was wondering about this statement:

This is part of the Pre-Third Impact Instrumentality. Right before the kitchen fight, Shinji and Asuka witness a scene from Misato's college days, where she is having sex with Kaji. Shinji clearly has never seen this before asking "This is Misato? She does... this?" in which she replies "Yes, this is also me... The melting into one another's hearts... The me that Shinji doesn't know." If this entire sequence was all "in Shinji's head", there is no way he'd know these things. Instead, because he is already in Instrumentality, he has access to Misato's memories. This also applies to the preceding Hell Train scene.

I don't really understand what 'Pre-Third Impact Instrumentality' means. I don't picture how Shinji could interact with Misato and Asuka prior to Third Impact, specifically the lowering of AT fields and the mingling of consciousness. The entry for Instrumentality seems to agree that Instrumentality occurs as a result of Third Impact, so it is not existing prior to Third Impact:

Human Instrumentality would arise as a result of the Third Impact, resulting in all Lilin souls being gathered into Lilith's Egg and united as a single existance. This would create a state of being for humanity where no individual existed; even identifying this being as a conglomerate would be incorrect, since there would be no such concept as an individual. To achieve this extreme homogenization, the flaws in every living being would be complemented by the strengths in others, thus filling the gaps and erasing the insecurities in people's hearts.

So I am not sure I understand how there could gave been an authentic interaction between them unless the scenes preceding the Komm Susser Tod sequence are nonlinear and occurred during Third Impact somehow. That doesn't quite make sense though, since the culmination of the kitchen scene and the following dialogue with Rei seem to be what pushes Shinji to wish for Third Impact to occur.

I just don't really see how Shinji could access the real Misato and Asuka at that time unless the scenes are nonlinear to what we see occurring in real time. Shinji is in a unique position of being in Unit 01 at the time, so his AT field would be lowered sooner based on what is said, but I still don't expect he could interact with others until the souls are gathered together during Third Impact. I do agree the dialogue sounds like it is between the real characters, but I'm trying to get how that works. My best guess is that it has something to do with the fact that both Misato and Asuka are dead at that time - I certainly don't think everyone was experiencing Instrumentality prior to Rei/Lilith lowering the AT fields of the living.

Solarwind wrote:I don't really understand what 'Pre-Third Impact Instrumentality' means. I don't picture how Shinji could interact with Misato and Asuka prior to Third Impact, specifically the lowering of AT fields and the mingling of consciousness.

We see the various Rei apparitions "collecting" the various ppl's souls immediately preceding TI - An apparition of her appears just before Misato blows up, Ritsuko briefly sees one as she falls etc.

As you correctly observed, everyone that Shinji 'interacts' with at this point is dead. Note also that at this point EVA 01 is already interacting with Lillith/GNR

The sense can't be 100% symbolic/ In Shinji's head because he sees stuff he wouldn't know about (like Misato's college memories)

So I suppose the process of gathering the souls into the moon is not a requirement for Shinji to be interacting with the others, at least those who died and were collected by Rei? That part admittedly did always confuse me a bit - Rei is able to be seen by Shinji at the beginning of the series, so that opens up the possibility that anyone who died during the series' duration could have been collected by Rei. Probably even prior to that, as we have no reason to assume she is limited to just that timeframe.

Makes me wonder if Kaji might have made it in. I don't really have any theories as to what rules Rei would follow in collecting souls, 'everyone who died within the last day' seems like a subjective concept for an entity that exists in a quantum state.

(Also yes, I fully agree that the scenes contain info Shinji isn't privy to. Mostly just trying to understand the mechanics behind what he experiences).

Solarwind wrote:Makes me wonder if Kaji might have made it in. I don't really have any theories as to what rules Rei would follow in collecting souls, 'everyone who died within the last day' seems like a subjective concept for an entity that exists in a quantum state.

The manga seems to imply he did (he sees a vision of his former street kid friends before he dies) though that's it's own continuity. (indeed in EoE proper the people who died saw Rei simply as herself.). You might speculate that maybe Sadamoto believes in an actual afterlife more than Anno does, but i cant recall certain statements from either.

Rei I having a vision of Kaworu right before her demise in 'Death' might also be a relevant data point.

Still, there's probably some limit imposed by the impact ritual, Sachiel's arrival perhaps, or second impact.

Maybe the reason that the birth rate plummeted after second impact is that souls were being collected rather than reincarnated.

Well, at that point of the story, Unit 01 already had both the fruits of life and knowledge in it and, thus, was basically God (as said by Fuyutsuki himself). Therefore, the future of humanity and, more specifically, human individuality was in Shinji's hands. He had to make a choice.
In this context, the "kitchen" and "sex" scenes can be seen as scenarios that Lilith herself devised to help him out with that hard decision, for better or for worse.
Now, if the people in those segments were actually Misato and Asuka, I don't know. They could very well be just mere representations of how Shinji perceives their presence. You know, the idea that what we see from others isn't their real self, but rather an imperfect copy, shaped by our own point of view. I think Misato said something in regard to this during episode 25 or 26 (I can't remember which exactly).
Anyway, in that segment, Misato and Asuka could be just that. Human representations of what Shinji sees as the invisible barrier that separates us all. The painful nature of not being able to fully understand each other, encapsulated in the bodies of these two important figures in his life.
But if that's so, how can Shinji know that Misato has sex? Well, that's not that much of a mystery to begin with. The question here is not how he knows, but rather what he feels about it.
The same can be said for the notorious kitchen scene. I've always interpreted this segment as Shinji's point of view on what human relationships really are. Pain, frustration and something that is simply not worth keeping around.
It was in this segment that he realized that Asuka would not serve as an "emotional crutch" to his problems. She wouldn't act like a doll that doesn't have her own feelings. She wouldn't love him unconditionally, just so that he could feel less bad about himself. Rejection, that's what Shinji didn't want to deal with. That is what he thought others represented.

The kitchen and sex scenes feature the real characters, not just Shinji and apparitions or something. Not only would the impact and meaning of those scenes and therefore, in a sense, EoE in general be lessened by them not being real, you can't expect me to believe that Shinji could have in his mind a perfect reconstruction of Misato and Kaji having sex, which he could never have known about. It's one thing for him to deduce Misato has had sex with Kaji and another to have in his mind a reconstruction of what one of their "nice times" was like.

I don't see how the impact of EoE would be diminished by these characters being representations of how Shinji perceives the other. The scene in which he initiated the Third Impact is a very personal one and I like to believe that he had no third party input while making his decision (just as Rei suggested). That wasn't a choice he simply did out of frustration with others. It was more a culmination of what afflicted him the most, including himself. Specially himself. For me, this approach gives the scene and Shinji's actions more weight.
About him being able to reproduce the sex between Misato and Kaji with such precision, we must remember that he was not completely alone at that moment. Lilith was also there and she is quite literally a God. The same can be said to Unit 01, that had both the fruits of knowledge and life within its body. I don't think it is that much of a stretch to believe that these powerful entities could simply be helping Shinji to materialize his thoughts.
From a narrative standpoint, Asuka returning at that moment would also make no sense. She had just been murdered in a very brutal and shocking way (not only for the viewer, but also for Shinji). Bringing her back just after it (and with no clear explanation as to why) would take the weight off her death.
I prefer to see the kitchen segment as an encapsulation of Shinji and Asuka's entire relationship materialized as a scene, rather than a simple event that occurred on the middle of the story.

I always figured there was a mini Instrumentality before Lilith decided to extend it to the entire world upon Shinji's wish. It'd make sense since you see visions of Rei going around collecting people as Kendrix said.

If everything we see in the hell train and the kitchen was just how he perceived others, why would he intentionally push himself over the edge? Shinji wants everything to revolve around him and he wouldn't imagine Asuka rejecting him in such a cruel manner.

That's a very good point, but I don't think that he was actually thinking about what he wished during this segment. It was simply how he perceived reality itself. During the beginning of the movie, Shinji is putting all of his hopes into Asuka. He is objectifying her and expecting her to love him unconditionally (you know, that whole thing I'm always talking about hahaha). So, what came out of that? Well, nothing but him seeing her dead body lying around, without being able to do anything about it. That's how reality was. That's what Shinji was trying to escape from and failed. The world sucks and it's not worth keeping around (at least in his eyes).
I rather interpret this scene as a metaphysical representation of their relationship, than a literal clash between the two. It's all about how their bound represents the invisible barriers that exist between us and how those barriers torture Shinji.
I could be wrong, but that's just how I feel about it.

Remember there are no wrong answers .

The issue of chronological time and whether it matters here is somewhat of a problem in regards to where Asuka and Misato are at the time when Shinji interacts with Rei/Lilith prior to Instrumentality proper beginning. While we see her collect them prior to the event beginning, the origin point of the manifesting Rei clones takes place after Shinji already commences Instrumentality. Ostensibly it is a time paradox and their souls are collected by Rei in the future but can still interact with Shinji in the past, as if the events happened simultaneously. Rei collected them as a part of Instrumentality, but Asuka's interaction with him helped spur on the event itself, so there's some quantum fuckery going on there to have a future event caused by a past event. Not out of line with the series in any case.

However, the scene with Shinji in the playground almost certainly is not a representation of real people he is interacting with. So that begs the question of how that scene manifested. It would either have to be something he projected, or was influenced by Rei/Lilith. That somewhat calls into question the reality of other things he experienced, but yes I agree that I don't see how he would know of Misato and Kaji's sexual relationship. His interaction with Asuka in the kitchen fits with how he imagines her though, so that one is less obviously her in my opinion. Though both scenes are probably real if one is.

BernardoCairo wrote:That's a very good point, but I don't think that he was actually thinking about what he wished during this segment. It was simply how he perceived reality itself. During the beginning of the movie, Shinji is putting all of his hopes into Asuka. He is objectifying her and expecting her to love him unconditionally (you know, that whole thing I'm always talking about hahaha). So, what came out of that? Well, nothing but him seeing her dead body lying around, without being able to do anything about it. That's how reality was. That's what Shinji was trying to escape from and failed. The world sucks and it's not worth keeping around (at least in his eyes).
I rather interpret this scene as a metaphysical representation of their relationship, than a literal clash between the two. It's all about how their bound represents the invisible barriers that exist between us and how those barriers torture Shinji.
I could be wrong, but that's just how I feel about it.

I actually agree that the kitchen scene being real or not doesn't change what I take away from it. I think the culmination of the scene was Shinji confronting his own self-hatred and the terminus of him being able to use others to seek approval or receive direction on what to do. A big part of his character in my opinion is selfishness (which is a feature and contributor toward depression) and the state of Instrumentality ended his ability to tune out and avoid others. Especially Asuka and Misato, who he never made much effort to empathize with. So the scene whether real or not still represents him confronting a reality he avoided.

Only matters to Shinji's development though. If you want the scene to matter to Asuka's development, she would need to be real. But that scene was largely about Shinji and his attitude, not Asuka.

I actually agree with everything you said about Shinji.
One of the core themes found within The End of Evangelion, at least in my opinion, is how he wanted to escape from reality by using Asuka as a means to achieve that. When he confronts her in this scene, he states that he wants to help and stay with her forever. But she can see through his lies and doesn't want to just be used as his mere "doll".
He doesn't want to consider her as a human being with her own needs. He just wants someone to fill the void in his heart, even if superficially. Shinji is quite literally objectifying Asuka throughout the entire story (as we can clearly see in the hospital scene, for example). He wants her to love him unconditionally, in a very unrealistic fashion.
In the end, I can understand why he acts like that, even though I find it to be completely disgusting. He is an emotionally destroyed 14 year old boy. Trying to find an easy solution to all his problems is the natural thing I would expect from someone his age. He is also right about Asuka not opening herself up for him, even though he is not considering that maybe she is simply not capable of doing that, just like himself.
The thing with these scenes we are discussing is that it doesn't matter if they were literal clashes that happened or not. As you said, those were Shinji's moments. It was all about the decision he was about to make and the reasons behind it. It was a very personal experience to his character.
This does not mean that the figure of Asuka did not play a role here. But the scene clearly focused on Shinji's perspective of the relationship and, eventually, his breakdown. It's different from the "train sequence", for example. In that one, I believe that both sides were equally explored.

Yeah, I am on the side of thinking that while Shinji did not really consider the feelings of others, it was largely due to his own issues. Considering that the series focuses on the influence of parents on their children, it stands to reason that much of Shinji's problems originate in parental abandonment. He did not receive much care or empathy from others and thus he does not give it in turn when he is transitioning into an adult. It doesn't give him an excuse to never better himself, but it explains his lack of trust and overall dysfunctional approach to relationships.

Virtually every main character has a conflict that can be traced back to a parent, Misato is no different in that she buries herself in her work despite having a grudge against her father for doing the same. Asuka is arguably the only character that comes to a positive resolution with the parent she had a conflict with. I guess you can say Misato does since she sacrifices her life for Shinji in much the same way her father did for her, so she implicitly understood the significance of the gesture.

BernardoCairo wrote:
About him being able to reproduce the sex between Misato and Kaji with such precision, we must remember that he was not completely alone at that moment. Lilith was also there and she is quite literally a God. The same can be said to Unit 01, that had both the fruits of knowledge and life within its body. I don't think it is that much of a stretch to believe that these powerful entities could simply be helping Shinji to materialize his thoughts.

What? How? Why? When is this ever hinted at in EoE in any way? Because I don't see any hints towards that. And in any case, why would Shinji's thoughts feature Misato and Kaji having sex? Why would he want to go there? To me it seems far more sensible that due to being in Unit-01 and Instrumentality starting, souls were already starting to converge, which would explain how Shinji and Asuka could communicate in the kitchen scene and how Shinji can see Misato and Kaji having sex with comments from Misato, Asuka and Ritsuko.

While whether or not the Pre-Instrumentality sequences featuring the actual characters themselves changes the film's quality and if, how so, is admittedly a matter of personal opinion, for me the effect of the film would very much be lessened, because instead of Shinji communicating with others who show their faces and ideas and opinions at that time, they would be apparitions made up by Shinji's mind, therefore making it more of an internal self-quest than the final straw in his communication with others that it would be.

From a narrative standpoint, Asuka returning at that moment would also make no sense.

Asuka just died, her soul is now free, Instrumentality is starting, she and Shinji happen to meet. I don't understand why this would take the weight off her death-I would argue she reacts to Shinji as she does largely because of her death and the events leading up to that, thereby making the kitchen scene have more weight, while taking none off her death.


Talking about the kitchen scene, I would further say that if Asuka wasn't real, we wouldn't get the endpoint of Asuka's development and slide downhill and we wouldn't get extra thematic issues as they're related to her character. EoE isn't just a film about Shinji-yes, he's unarguably the main character of NGE and EoE both, but seeing as the one overarching theme of the original Eva canon is human relationships, then it makes sense that other characters and their importance and relationships with each other were also discussed, wouldn't it? And they very much are in EoE, which also shows quite a lot of other interesting things pertaining other characters and their interpersonal relationships.

Also, I still don't see how EoE is about Shinji trying to use Asuka for escapism. At the start, he goes to Asuka and jerks off, partially to prove to himself he really is "the lowest of the low", partially because he's so emotionally devastated at this point that he's just starting to refer to his primal instincts (as proven by his entire demeanor during the JSSDF invasion of Nerv HQ . He couldn't help Asuka during her fight with the MP Evas, and the kitchen scene is about Shinji trying to use Asuka as a way of finding some meaning. That's the only part where escapism comes in, but nowhere else do I see it. Neither do I see the kitchen scene as an encapsulation of Asuka's and Shinji's relationship, since that would require a Shinji who would be constantly seeking confirmation from Asuka, but denied because she sees that he wants simply some sort of love-all of which was true during the kitchen scene, but in no way do I see it as representative of their relationship overall.

Of course, you're free to think what you want and these are more matters of personal interpretation (with the exception of the question of whether or not the pre-Instrumentality sequence showed real people other than Shinji) than anything else, but to me, they just feel strange opinions to hold.

Well, there is a lot of things for me to answer here. So, I'm gonna go in parts.
Firstly, about the pre-instrumentality stuff. I think that, sometimes, people go too far to explain the logic behind more "abstract" scenes. But, we know that Lilith was emanating an "Anti AT Field" before Shinji even made his decision. So, I got you.
About the sex and kitchen scenes? Why would Shinji's thoughts contain these sequences? Well, because these are nothing more than what Shinji was perceiving human relationships to be. In the case of Misato and Kaji, it was all about two people filling their internal void superficially, by making sex and depending on each other (at least in Shinji's eyes). In the case of himself and Asuka, it was all about the inability of doing even that.
Misato, Kaji and, specially, Asuka are serving as representations of what the main character belives human interactions to be. Just look at what happened during the kitchen sequence. Shinji wanted to be validated, begged for attention to another person (completely disregarding her own situation) and was eventually rejected. When he starts to choke Asuka, he already made his decision and Koom, Süsser Tod is already playing in the background. He is not only giving up on her, he is not only doing that because of that particular situation. He is giving up on humanity as a whole. He is hurting all of us at the same time.
About Asuka's death not being diminished because of her supposed quick return, I disagree. We had just saw her body being ripped apart in the most horrific way I can possibly imagine. Shinji had also just saw her mutilated Evangelion laying around, lifeless. What would make more sense? Something about her soul being free, or Shinji starting to freak out because the one person he putted all of his hopes in is now dead and he can't do anything about it?
About Asuka's development being hurt if that wasn't really her, I actually thought about this yesterday, while writing my first post. But, in the end, I don't think so. Much of her personal growth was done even before the Third Impact had even started. After that, the "train sequence", for example, offers much more depth to her point of view on what's going on between her and Shinji. During the kitchen scene, her figure was an important one. But, as I wrote before, she was more like playing the role of humanity in Shinji's eyes. It was not only about their relationship. It was about all relationships.
Finally, about the whole escapism situation, I believe that Shinji was engaging in it because he was not dealing with what was actually torturing him, his self hatred. During the beginning of the movie, we see him going to visit Asuka, but it was not for her. He is in that hospital for himself. He wanted Asuka to wake up, so he could feel better about himself. He was objectifying her to the point of masturbating to her comatose body. She was nothing more than a means for him to escape his pain for a while (even though he was consumed by it afterwards). But, of course, she wasn't the only thing he used to get away from his problems. There was also that "I want to die" attitude that Misato criticized during the entire first half of the movie.


EDIT: I was wrong. Like, completely wrong hahahahaha. I actually came with some of these ideas on the spot. Thus, I didn't put enough thought into what I was actually writing. But, after thinking about it and reading about Shinji and Asuka's relationship (on evageeks itself), I'm 100% sure that it was indeed Asuka's realself clashing with Shinji. It had to be her, otherwise much of the meaning behind the scene (and even some of the stuff I've been writing here on the forum) would be astonishing diminished! Hack, that being actually her doesn't even take anything away from what I said about the segment being a representation of how Shinji saw human interactions! In conclusion, you were right, I was wrong. Sorry for wasting everyone's time hahahahahaha

I just still find it confusing for souls to be in contact with each other prior to Third Impact. It seemed to be the case that souls were not interacting with each other until the stage of being drawn together into the moon. I'm not sure where Rei is 'keeping' these souls in such a way that they are not being united by the process of Instrumentality yet.

Then again, I am still not certain what order events take place in. I suppose the scene with Shinji interacting with Rei and Kaworu above the Earth takes place during Komm Susser Tod. In that sequence, we see her rise out of the Geofront and pretty much immediately begin Instrumentality. However, as of the prior scene with Shinji she was already up in the clouds with him and spent a few minutes where Kaworu shows himself to Shinji. So it's hard to say what point in time Shinji is interacting with Asuka and Misato. I just figured it would have to be prior to him expressing that everyone should die, because I assumed that was him expressing his will that Instrumentality occur.

I don't have a problem with the interaction being real or not. I never really thought much about it, honestly. But I watched again recently and just didn't really understand how things transpired in terms of the external events and internal/metaphysical scenes.

I agree with you 100%. It astonishes me, in 2021, the need of people of making up theories again and again and again.....when Evangelion is not as cryptic as someones want to believe. It's tiresome that search of "alternative interpretations.

Without Asuka being real, "I need you" has no fucking sense. The kitchen scene is her beginning of instrumentality, and what justifies being the first other for Shinji as a proof of her improvement (never forget it uses as a background a crucial memory for both children). But I supose people need to start topics again and again and again so the forums don't get stagnant.

By the way, Chronicle states that is not a dream, is Asuka who rejects Shinji. It's fucking common sense, what would be the point on the contrary? Lillith decieving Shinji to start 3rd impact? It has no sense at all. And we better don't talk about Misato's presence and memories.....which were present in the TV series (the exact same moment) and nobody argues about going through instrumentality.

BernardoCairo: It's very good that you've come to see the truth in some of my statements. The reality of the people besides Shinji in the Pre-Instrumentality sequence is pretty much objective, while my other quandaries with your sayings are a matter of personal preference and interpretation, so us having different opinions is fine by me. I understand why you would think Asuka being real in the kitchen scene is something that takes away from her death, but it's not like that for me, so...whatever. I still don't agree with your "escapist Shinji" thesis, because while there's some truth in it, I don't think that's what Shinji was doing for the majority of the time there. Yes, he wanted to get away from his problems, but by and large, he just wanted some sense of normalcy back, some sort of love. It must be understood that Shinji was so fucked up during that time that he had gone beyond rational thinking, for the worse. So while he might have acted escapist in certain times, by and large I don't see that as the main character flaw exhibited by Shinji in the film. Of course, he wanted something different, but I do feel like Shinji was so screwed at the time that accusing him of being escapist would be going far-though maybe I'm confusing the film's sympathy and understanding for Shinji with the film presenting him as not being that escapist.

I think it is worth questioning the the kitchen scene from time to time. I think the main confusion is why it serves as the gateway scene for instrumentality. Perhaps Instrumentality was already in the stages of occurring and there is a discordance in time as you say Solar wind, and it just so happens that Shinji and Asuka were arguing that whole time.

@Jäeger
Yes, you're 100% right. As I said, I just came up with some ideas for the sake of it. If that wasn't Asuka herself, the whole parallelism between that scene and I Need You would be completely lost. I was also wrong about this moment not being as important to her character as the "train sequence", for example. If you think about it, all of the four scenes that she shared with Shinji during Human Instrumentality were equally important, representing stages of her character development and facets of her relationship with him.
I came up with something out of nowhere, got excited for nothing and wasted my time defending it (as if it had substance behind it). It is actually embarrassing hahahahaha
But that's why I'm on the forum, I guess. So I can discuss this type of stuff with you guys and realize when I'm being completely stupid faster.

@Zusuchan
Now, about "escapist Shinji", that's actually something that thought about before writing. I agree with you that Shinji was in a fragile state during the beginning of The End of Evangelion. When I say that he was trying to escape from reality, I'm not judging him. As I said, this is what I would expect from a 14 year old in the first place. He had problems that he wasn't willing to look at (most importantly, his self hatred). The way he putted all of his hopes into Asuka, the way he wanted everything to go back to normal out of a blink, the way he kept saying that he wanted to die. None of this was addressing his own issues.
There is a scene in particular that I always remember when thinking about it. Misato was there, trying to put some sense into him, but all that Shinji could do was repeat "Help me Asuka, Help me Asuka, I want to die" (completely disregarding the situation he was in).
By the way, I think that this approach is really good for the movie, thematically. Think about it, it starts with Shinji denying himself and the nature of the situation he was in and it ends with him realizing that reality isn't perfect, but that's ok (as long as you face your problems, while having the will to live, everything will be alright).
But, that's just my take on it. As everyone can clearly see, I can always be wrong hahahahaha.