Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:15 am

I mean, my theories are based in the spoken words in AVANT1. It's not fiction I'm producing, is all I'm. saying. It's Anno's fiction. (Clearly. He's the head writer. :wink: ) It's not extra-textual to quote the dialogue in the test itself. Instead, that's direct textual evidence.

Here's the thing: I'm not saying there isn't any time shenanigans going on in Shin Eva either. I'm just saying there isn't any textual evidences for it yet. What's going on in AVANT1 is clearly explain by the character in AVANT1, and time travel was nowhere to be found in that explanation. The rest of the film will drop in late January, and it may reveal all sorts of Avengers: End Game-style time travel plot lines. It could be as closely guarded of a reveal in Shin Eva as the 14-year time jump was in Eva Q. It would be the first time Anno has done time travel (therefore, arguably uncharacteristic of Anno to do something like that) but, if it happens in Shin Eva, then it happens. We just don't have the direct textual evidences for that yet. The rest of the film needs to provide that for us.

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:18 am

Well you had the time dilation stuff in GunBuster but that was notably only ever going forward in time, never backward, never looping around etc.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:24 am

^ That actually came to mind, but I consider that to be different forms of natural time travel. We are all time travelers, technically. We just move in only one direction, at the same basic speed depending on our relation to gravity. (Unless someone does something really whacky like the FTL space travel in GunBuster.) Backwards time travel is an unnatural form of time travel, which is why I would consider is uncharacteristic of Anno to use that as a story telling device.

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:27 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I mean, my theories are based in the spoken words in AVANT1. It's not fiction I'm producing, is all I'm. saying. It's Anno's fiction. (Clearly. He's the head writer. :wink: ) It's not extra-textual to quote the dialogue in the test itself. Instead, that's direct textual evidence.

Here's the thing: I'm not saying there isn't any time shenanigans going on in Shin Eva either. I'm just saying there isn't any textual evidences for it yet. What's going on in AVANT1 is clearly explain by the character in AVANT1, and time travel was nowhere to be found in that explanation. The rest of the film will drop in late January, and it may reveal all sorts of Avengers: End Game-style time travel plot lines. It could be as closely guarded of a reveal in Shin Eva as the 14-year time jump was in Eva Q. It would be the first time Anno has done time travel (therefore, arguably uncharacteristic of Anno to do something like that) but, if it happens in Shin Eva, then it happens. We just don't have the direct textual evidences for that yet. The rest of the film needs to provide that for us.
If Gendo is the King of the Lilin Anno he is practically the King of the Trolls...I remember seeing a meme where there was all the evidence that Rebuild and the old series were connected with Anno's smiling face saying Greatest Troll Ever ... Without getting too involved with the loop theory is the fact that Hideaki Anno enjoys driving fans crazy is well known ... Just look at the preview of 3.0 which was pretty much what maybe happened in the 14 years between 2.0 and 3.0 and yet in You Can (Not) Redo Shinji and viewers immediately found themselves wondering what the hell was going on ..... Let's face it for sure if in the film we were really shown a time travel or a time loop it wouldn't be verbally confirmed neither by the characters nor by the cast in real life because for sure Anno would do it sound like a vision of Shinji and just as many fans complain about both the series finale and End of Evangelion we'll keep wondering what the fuck happened ...

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Postby ShinjiStranglesAsuka » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:48 am

View Original PostThe Killer of Heroes wrote:Well you had the time dilation stuff in GunBuster but that was notably only ever going forward in time, never backward, never looping around etc.


Now that I think about it Shinji and Rei being trapped in Unit-01 and waking up in some unknown future mirrors what happened with Noriko and Kazumi. :|

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:04 am

Fuyutsuki shoots down the idea of moving backward through time when he's giving his info dump to Shinji:
Fuyutsuki: Breaking apart the world is a trivial matter. Rebuilding it, however, is not so easy. As with time itself, the course of the world cannot be reversed.


Kaworu shares a similar sentiment when he shows Shinji the world outside of Nerv HQ:
Shinji: It's all too much! I can't do anything about this!

Kaworu: True, it's a horrific past that you can't do anything about.


The plan he's pitching to Shinji isn't turning back the clock to undo his mistake. What he's proposing is that they use Eva 13 to restore the damage caused to the world caused by 2nd and 3rd Impacts, and in doing so restore hope to the Lilin and help Shinji find redemption for the transgressions he's told he committed. "Change brought about by an Eva can be changed again by an Eva." But, like Fuyutsuki says, it's not that easy.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:06 am

View Original PostShinjiStranglesAsuka wrote:
View Original PostThe Killer of Heroes#904299 wrote:Well you had the time dilation stuff in GunBuster but that was notably only ever going forward in time, never backward, never looping around etc.


Now that I think about it Shinji and Rei being trapped in Unit-01 and waking up in some unknown future mirrors what happened with Noriko and Kazumi. :|
Do you think Rei trapped inside Eva 01 will perhaps have a fundamental role in the last 15 minutes or more of the film?

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Postby writer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:57 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:The plan he's pitching to Shinji isn't turning back the clock to undo his mistake. What he's proposing is that they use Eva 13 to restore the damage caused to the world caused by 2nd and 3rd Impacts, and in doing so restore hope to the Lilin and help Shinji find redemption for the transgressions he's told he committed. "Change brought about by an Eva can be changed again by an Eva." But, like Fuyutsuki says, it's not that easy.


People telling Shinji what he is and is not allowed to do. People trying to lead Shinji to some finality and again controlling his destiny.

Let's say there is no time travel, that instead we get some alternative explanation for "Reset" mechanics that do not modify time, they only change the characters who are present; everyone is converted into LCL, comes out of the ocean because they retain their sense of self (or are brought out of the LCL in the same way as Rei), and Shinji attempts another round in Instrumentality to see if it matches his desired result.

I think we don't know enough the mechanics of Instrumentality or Reverse-Instrumentality/Anti-L Barrier tech to discount the idea that there may be a pre-Instrumentality world underneath the red stained landscape. This does not have to be time travel, it could be something otherwise related to Instrumentality that we all will get to argue about after the science behind it is explained in Thrice.

Moving this here, since it's off-topic to the Trailer thread:

View Original PostShinjiStranglesAsuka wrote:I wanna pose two questions to the sequel/loop theory people:


1) What do you think a sequel or loop would add to series, thematically?
Simply put, making NTE a sequel to EvaTV/EoE places the entire series of events in one continuity. It's a pleasure to watch and rewatch Eva attempting to put the pieces together and make sense of it. If we only get an NTE final it will still be amazing and I won't be upset, but the possibility that we may be able to link all of Evangelion together into one master study and have even more to connect than we've done so far with NTE makes it desirable for me, whether or not it's a loop or explained otherwise.

NTE may have begun as a way to get new viewers into Eva, but if Q is any example, the franchise morphed into something for fans of the original series more than just a retelling. To link those together as the final bow on the package for all Eva fans would be incredible, and would give everyone another huge task to complete in Anno's absence; to make sense of Eva as a whole.

2) Do you think Anno is a shit writer?
Far from it. I think Anno is an amazing writer and the only one I would trust to even attempt to combine this series into a whole. All of my theories end in question marks, because at the end of the day I trust Anno to lead us to where we need to be. But if there's a way to combine everything into one package that can be scrutinized and analyzed as one product I can spend the rest of my time here on earth digging into those details.
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Postby Blockio » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:39 pm

writer, which part of the thing that BleBasilisk just quoted do you not understand? Kaworu, one of the lynchpins of your entire argument, outright tells Shinji that he can't change the past. That alone completely rules out loop "theory"
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ Joseki
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The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Postby writer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:45 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Kaworu, one of the lynchpins of your entire argument, outright tells Shinji that he can't change the past. That alone completely rules out loop "theory"


When you hear Loop you think time-loop reset. To me there is no "take back," or time reset, but rather the world and the characters within it are reset and the continuity continues on. This is a rebuild, not a redo. Everything is being built back up after tumbling down, and Shinji is still in the process of finding that true ending, which he has never found in any instance of the series.

Ergo, Shinji is not changing the past, he is creating a new future. Also, if you're going to fall on a character to be telling the truth, Kaworu's not a great one. His intentions are very up for debate, and it's possible we'll see those intentions/goals exposed in Thrice as a final understanding of his character and what it means to the series, and more importantly to Shinji. Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true, and especially so in this case. The same could be said for Fuyutski; each has intentions that are not known, and therefore everything they say to our boy may not be meant to be taken at face value, but could be part of an agenda.

Aside from that, during Instrumentality Shinji becomes a God. There are no rules written to what he can do, and the barriers being placed on him by Wille and NeoNerv may just be symbolic of the barriers he places on himself.
Shinji did nothing wrong!

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Postby ErgoProxy » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:18 pm

Blockio wrote:Kaworu, one of the lynchpins of your entire argument, outright tells Shinji that he can't change the past. That alone completely rules out loop "theory"

Not so fast. If - if! - Kaworu meant time travel, he merely stated that traveller cannot change what already hapened to the world and will happen to traveller himself, in his future, when he will finally fill in the gaps in the schema of events, so to say. If this holds true, all we have in NTE is single timeline, which is loopy, but is also consistent; pretty much like in Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi. Thus there is no redo and there is no fork either, but some kind of destiny can pop out of the blue, for a time.

Personally I would opt for another solution, without time travel, but recalling the soundtrack for 2.22 makes me afraid my whishes won't be fulfilled.
In my spirit lies my faith
Stronger than love and with me it will be
For always

- Mike Wyzgowski & Sagisu Shiro

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Postby Zusuchan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:53 pm

I don't understand why NTE and NGE being part of the same canon are necessary in any way to make those works more meaningful. NTE is already heavily intertextual with NGE and it doesn't need to be part of the same continuity/multiverse/whatever in order for that intertextuality to have meaning.

I'm going to refrain from posting more in this thread unless it's due to moderating purposes, because seeing as how both "NGE and NTE are separate continuities" and "NTE most likely won't feature time travel of any kind" seem to just generally be ignored constantly despite the proof behind those statements, I really doubt that there's going to be any further point to this discussion until Shin comes out.

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:05 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:I'm going to refrain from posting more in this thread unless it's due to moderating purposes, because seeing as how both "NGE and NTE are separate continuities" and "NTE most likely won't feature time travel of any kind" seem to just generally be ignored constantly despite the proof behind those statements, I really doubt that there's going to be any further point to this discussion until Shin comes out.

How has the existence of time travel in the final movie been disproven? The only evidence you've managed to come up with is "Time travel in Eva would be a bad idea," which is a completely subjective thing that has no value in the discussion about whether it's going to happen in the first place. Meanwhile, there are already many pieces of evidence that suggest time travel will figure into the plot at some point. The Japanese title being a musical repeat sign, the English title referencing a book about time travel, the shenanigans going on in the Chamber of Guf, Gendo being able to predict everyone's actions exactly, and the Eva vs Eva battle seemingly taking place in an under-construction Tokyo-3, all seem to suggest at least some degree of time travel.

It doesn't even need to be a manga-style magic reset button: Maybe Gendo is the one using time travel to benefit his plans, and the main characters have to stop him. Showing travel to the past as being evil could allow time travel to happen while still respecting the franchise's themes.

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Postby Blockio » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:11 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:I'm going to refrain from posting more in this thread unless it's due to moderating purposes, because seeing as how both "NGE and NTE are separate continuities" and "NTE most likely won't feature time travel of any kind" seem to just generally be ignored constantly despite the proof behind those statements, I really doubt that there's going to be any further point to this discussion until Shin comes out.

I'm going to resort to the doing the same, I'm giving up on this debate
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ Joseki
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:28 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:
View Original PostZusuchan#904408 wrote:I"NGE and NTE are separate continuities" and "NTE most likely won't feature time travel of any kind" seem to just generally be ignored constantly despite the proof behind those statements,

How has the existence of time travel in the final movie been disproven?

He wasn't making that claim to begin with. Something being proven to be "less likely" isn't the same thing as being "disproven." Given what has been going on in the movies so far, it is natural to conclude that time travel is less likely, but that doesn't mean its likelihood of happening is zero.

Admittedly, there is a general tiredness of the Time Loop theory among longtime forum users. I remember when Eva 2.0 was "supposed to prove time loop/sequel theory" or whatever. Then that movie came out with less than a nod to that idea than the initial film (which was probably just re-establishing the world of Eva rather than going on about a sequel theory or loop theory or whatever), so the goal post was moved to Eva 3.0. Then that movie came out and was more interested in its own 14-year time jump than it was in proving any weird time shenanigans, so the goal post was again moved to the next film. If the pattern holds true, Shin Eva will drop and, most likely (though, admittedly, not 100% likely) not have a darn thing to do about Loop Theory or Sequel Theory or anything like that. (But, as I've said, that remains to be seen.)

I've also seen this happen in other fandoms as well, where the fans will get so married to a pet theory that they'll insist that Sherlock's season 4 was supposed to have a secret 4th episode, and it was secretly produced as BBC's Apple Tree Yard. Once Apple Tree Yard was proven to be exactly what it said on the tin, Sherlock fans were disappointed but still held out hope that there would be a new installment after the cancelation of the show that would "fix" the issues they thought the show had. This episode hasn't been released yet. All that to say that if Shin Eva doesn't prove "Loop Theory," I am fully expecting to see a bunch off discussions on this forum about how Anno is "creating a secret 5th Evangelion movie that proves Loop Theory was right all along" or some nonsense like that. Trust me, I understand. If Shin Eva doesn't confirm my own pet theory that Mari is a miniaturized Evangelion Unit, I'll be beside myself. But I probably won't speculate on a secret 5th film to rectify that situation either, and hopefully, no matter what Shin Eva does with Loop Theory, no one here will do that either.

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Postby writer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:34 pm

The reality is, the proofs that are claimed to disprove Loop Theory are mostly the same proofs we'd use to prove it. There are elements that you are all aware of that you've been able to explain away one way or another, and yet we sit here at the precipice of the final film with trailers and data that still point toward some form of loop. BusterMachine4 gave some good examples, and there are many more.

The entire reason I wanted to revive this thread is because there are those of us who do think there is some sort of loop going on, and to discredit that by saying "We already proved it wrong" means that we won't have the conversations we could be having, even if they're just for fun and incorrect.

I don't put much weight into anything I predict, as I know that Anno and the rest of team Khara will do a much better job figuring out what the best ending is than I will. Still, I have been a fan of Eva for this long because of the questions that have gone unanswered, and if this is my last chance to post a theory before the final film is released, I think it's worthwhile to discuss it.

If you would take some time to think about the possibilities along with the proofs that have been posted it's possible you could see some possibilities, or even "This is impossible unless ____ occurs," which is as good of a thought experiment as any for an incomplete work. Otherwise, I appreciate that you'd come to at least try to save my from myself, and hope that you can rub it in my face once all is said and done.

Until then, Loop Theory lives on!
Shinji did nothing wrong!

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Postby Blockio » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:35 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I remember when Eva 2.0 was "supposed to prove time loop/sequel theory" or whatever. Then that movie came out with less than a nod to that idea than the initial film (which was probably just re-establishing the world of Eva rather than going on about a sequel theory or loop theory or whatever), so the goal post was moved to Eva 3.0. Then that movie came out and was more interested in its own 14-year time jump than it was in proving any weird time shenanigans, so the goal post was again moved to the next film. If the pattern holds true, Shin Eva will drop and, most likely (though, admittedly, not 100% likely) not have a darn thing to do about Loop Theory or Sequel Theory or anything like that. (But, as I've said, that remains to be seen.)

I've also seen this happen in other fandoms as well, where the fans will get so married to a pet theory that they'll insist that Sherlock's season 4 was supposed to have a secret 4th episode, and it was secretly produced as BBC's Apple Tree Yard. Once Apple Tree Yard was proven to be exactly what it said on the tin, Sherlock fans were disappointed but still held out hope that there would be a new installment after the cancelation of the show that would "fix" the issues they thought the show had. This episode hasn't been released yet. All that to say that if Shin Eva doesn't prove "Loop Theory," I am fully expecting to see a bunch off discussions on this forum about how Anno is "creating a secret 5th Evangelion movie that proves Loop Theory was right all along" or some nonsense like that.

One last contribution - I want that quote framed and put on a wall. Definitely going to keep the link to this message around.
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ Joseki
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Postby ShinjiStranglesAsuka » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:44 pm

@FFF4ever
Sherlock season 4 doesn't actually exist, not sure what you mean. :devil:

Maybe the real loop theory is the fact that we're in a loop talking about loop theories all along.

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Postby writer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:45 pm

View Original PostShinjiStranglesAsuka wrote:Maybe the real loop theory is the fact that we're in a loop talking about loop theories all along.


Now the deep meta is beginning to surface!
Shinji did nothing wrong!

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:07 pm

:lol: The real Loop Theories were the discussions we've had along the way.


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