Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:49 pm

View Original PostMelkor wrote:I think it's more likely they'll go for the angle of Asuka and Mari being half-sisters rather than lovers.


I really really hope that this is NOT the case, let Mari have her own background & mythology rather than being tied to a popular canon character.
"The fan faves secret sister" is bad OCs 101.
Like it can be done but with no buildup? They look nothing alike, & aren't they wildly different nationalities anyways? So how would that work, one Japanese woman boinked one British dude and a german one, but then wouldn't the Japanese surname at least be the same....

I've always assumed the "strict catholic highschool & lots of pets" backstory 'cause it explains Mari well enough (she's all eccentric cause she had to suppress her inner weirdo, & that's also why she dislikes authority & likes to work on her own etc., though being in a boarding school might also have led her to be relatively independent & cool-headed) & I hope something likes it gets made canon, though it's fully possible at this point that we won't get much backstory because there is just so much to wrap up & mari's ultimately a supporting character.

I mean they considered that whole "Mari steals Asuka's job" premise in the CR & then rightly decided to scrap it, though the rivalry still made it into Q in a way that doesn't rob Asuka of all her cool moments. "relatives" or "lovers" arent the only possible relationships out there why is comrades or rivals not good enough?


As for Kaworu: Personally I'm really critical of the whole "EVA is all traps and ifucks your and ndex finger wagging fingers and cautionary tales" interpretation, from the show itself and the interviews the impression I get is that it's a very personal meditation of the human condition, a record of how someone perceives the experience of & truth about life, a depiction of feelings, & yes, realizations, too, but not from the PoV of the teacher wagging the index finger but someone reflecting their own shortcomings from experience. It's not so much "if you do this you will fail" as it is the experience of parting & failure

Like this is something that got started when EoE first came out & ppl were very much wanting a more "physical"; and then the perception of it was that it was bleak & unsatisfying & incomprehensible,& so the idea crystallized that it was a "fuck you to teach you a lesson".
What really happened is that the "public perception" solidified before ppl had enough processing time, as you can tell by the fact that we've more or less completely decoded it by now (so much for "incomprehensible") and that when you get it what happens is that instrumentality was undone (so not 100% bleak either); Satisfaction, of course, will always remain a subjective quality

Like this line from shizo/parano for example:
"Right. To those on the outside, it looks like an illusion, but when it comes down to it I believe that happiness itself is an illusion. Human beings cannot escape from their solitude. All they can do is forget it. At that moment [of forgetfulness], they will be happy. That’s my recent conclusion. In order [to forget], you can watch anime, or sleep with a girl, and if you can escape from your loneliness while doing it, then perhaps you will be happy. If, when I get totally drunk, I feel like I am not alone, that’s an illusion, but it’s happiness."

That sounds less to me like "get off your butt leave behind your illusions & go find your ~real~ happiness" as it is a melancholy meditation on the fundamental human experience, ones own experience. Much of what ppl point at as "teaching ppl a lesson" is really a reflection of self doubt; I don't think the critical voice in the heads of the characters has to be taken for the truth, it's just a depiction of a feeling.
Where does meaning come from? If you put away cultural connections and the like you can arrive at the conclusion that it's just what ppl themselves attach meaning to. Yu can use the self knowledge to not be ruled by things you can't have or make you unhappy, but you'll still be assigning meaning to thinks yourself cause that is the only way to feel meaning.

So I don't see it as a story of "growth" as it is one of self-awareness/self-knowledge and Nietzschean Amor Fati. It's not linear; It's very, very circular.

We have yet to see how Rebuild ends but I don't think either of the existing two endings ended in "change".
The breakthrough realization in EoTV was more like a) You also have good & neutral traits & life experiences (that's what the Au sequence is; Shinji's life isn't all pleasant slice of life stuff, but pleasant slice of life experiences are a part of it, it's not all horror either) and b) you don't have to judge yourself

EoE if anything goes further like it explicitly ends with that scene where Shinji floats towards the surface after his parting from Yui & reflects on how he will probably continue to ask himself all these questions & have the same ponderings & even the same conclusions over and over again, fear & pAin included, and the moment the first other person demands that's exactly what happens.

Shinji winds up in the place that he started; what he gained is awareness, deliberateness. He's here now because he chose it, not because he is a helpless plaything of outside forces, as he used to view it earlier.

So that things end tragically with Kaworu that doesn't mean it was "wrong" to be with him in the first place (I mean just look at the post Q Ogata interview where she interprets his presence as "even if all goes wrong you can still form new bonds"); It just means that tragic endings to nice things happen & must be dealt with; & Shinji as someone with a rather preoccupied attachment style is of course overly concerned with good things ending to the point of avoiding or fearing them, but there is no ultimate permanence to them that you can grasp.
We are told explicitly directly 100% to your face that Kaworu (& Rei) represent hope, communication & words of affirmation & for years ppl have just ignored it despite how unambiguous & blatant it is. Ppl sometimes liking you & wanting to be your friend is not unrealistic or coddling, believe me it happens, sometimes, for a while.
Like Shinji says, it's a prayer, a hope, something that won't last forever - but so is all happiness. There is no happiness out there that is "realler" or less impermanent. But it's happiness; It's the reason he goes back.
Last edited by Kendrix on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:55 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Did you mean this one?

Yep, that one. I was looking through the back catalog of forum posts, and I thought that one was completely ridiculous and biased.

And Kendrix, once again you knock it out of the park with your interpretations. Kaworu is supposed to show that unconditional love is unrealistic, but not necessarily that it’s bad. Kaworu’s death may have pushed Shinji further off the deep end in both continuities, but Kaworu was still shown as a downright positive force in EoE. That alone should completely destroy the arguments of the “Kaworu is evil and manipulative” people.

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:21 pm

It's more that the point of him is supposed to be that he's someone Shinji "would instantly get an inferiority complex toward" (Anno's words I believe) because he's so good & likeable.
But he's not just good he's specifically Shinji's idea of admirable - hence why he's musical & philosophic for example, like Shinji in his better moments.

So he kind of needs to be admirable for the plot to work; And then the situation where only one of them can survive (or, In Rebuild, the situation where Shinji makes a critical mistake that gets him killed) is there to exacerbate Shinji's feelings of unworthiness (because those are something Anno thematically wanted to explore), not as a "punishment consequence"

I don't think there's anything particularly unrealistic about having an inferiority complex towards a friend or partner who you feel is cooler than you (especially if you have preexisting worries about not measuring up to people), it doesn't require unrealistic perfection; It just requires being (perceived as) cooler than you or having a trait you admire or wish you had.

The answer here isn't "You shouldn't desire that people say they like/love you or are interested in you" (again that is not all that unrealistic or rare, even if it can be impermanent); It's the feelings of inferiority that are the problem & get in the way. It's a pretty common relationship pitfall irl, even if it's typically less likely to end with dramatic death & more with the partner (or friend) with the inferiority complex leaving preemptively (cf. Misato leaving precisely because Kaji made her feel good) or being irrationally afraid of cheating / being replaced by cooler friends

Shinji views Kaworu as so much better that he can't conceive of a reason why he would like him & take his side, ( hence the ppl calling it "unrealistic" because they feel that Kaworu likes him for no reason, often they tend to have very negative views of Shinji like no one could possibly like him) but the reason is right there:
    -Kaworu has sympathy/interest in humans in general & thinks that Shinji particularly exemplifies those traits that interest him
    -Kaworu sees Shinji as similar to himself; It goes both ways. He#d probably be like "Oh, he is gentle & artsy and philosophic..."
    -Kaworu also relates to the whole "feeling like a playball of fate" thing (He introduces himself as "one of those whose fates were predetermined"); So Shinji is, apart from Rei, perhaps the only person who can understand what that's like, & he's more receptive to chatting than Rei, whom Kaworu also seeks out. If Shinji had told him to get lost but Rei was eager to hang out, he would've gotten close to her instead
    -Kaworu wants freedom & allying with the humans is one way to defy his fate/be free. Of course succeeding in that to a degree is yet another thing for Shinji to envy
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Derantor » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:41 pm

@Kendrix & BusterMachine4: Well, good points. Regarding NGE Kaworu, at least. To which I can only say that Shinji straight up says "But I know that's just a self-serving delusion" (or something similar, after Rei and Kaworu say their lines about hope and love). So, nothing gets destroyed here, least of all any take on NTE!Kaworu. NTE more than once deliberately takes our expectations and twists things around, giving things an entirely different meaning. Again, I don't read Reichu's post as meaning that she thinks Kaworu is an evil rapist (which is loaded language in itself, BusterMachine); Kaworu is, kowingly or unkowingly, manipulating Shinji into "happiness" - in a way Kaworu thinks will fix everything, without even asking Shinji for his opinion or consent once (or even how he feels - Kaworu assumes he knows everything already), with disasterous consequences. That's deeply unhealthy behaviour. Whether or not they love each other or not has no bearing on that. Pointing out flaws in a character also doesn't mean that Reichu is in any way biased against Kaworu. That's a narrative that has been peddled on twitter and in other places, for less than kind reasons, but has no actual basis in reality. (Otherwise, I really don't see why she would make him a protagonist in her FanFiction ...)

Edit:
In Rebuild, the situation where Shinji makes a critical mistake that gets him killed

A mistake he only made because Kaworu convinced him to board the Eva once again. And Kaworu kills himself; he even absolves Shinji of all guilt shortly before he dies. Kaworu brought about that situation in the first place. Kaworu was the one who took the choker onto himself. Shinji, quite literally, did not even know what was going on.

Edit two: Anyway, all of that is best discussed in the appropriate thread (which Mr. Tines already linked), I think, and this one should focus on the trailer again.

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:53 pm

So... Kaworu takes full responsibility for his own plan failing, and that's a bad thing?
It's not like giving up and moping forever was a better option.

There's a big difference between the very weighted words "self serving delusion" and "illusion, wish, prayer" (the actual word); In the same scene we're told that ultimately all happiness is self-created; It's as real as anything else; He's talking of the concepts of hope and love in general, not their being examples of "false" hope. Like how do you even objectively determine "true" or "false" hope in subtle interpersonal interactions? There is no objective 100% indesputable "true hope" hope by definition is a "maybe"

Obviously since Rebuild is not yet finished we can't pass the final judgment on what anything means till we've seem the conclusion, but this interpretation requires a lot of reading into things & basically positing that everything we're told really means the opposite; it just doesn't hold up to occams razor, or as an emotional narrative, unless the sole goal was shock value/giving ppl the finger/ showing up how smart & better you are
The show just isn't written from that mindset; Shinji is the self insert

EDIT: Anyways, we were discussing Mari's and Asuka's room...

Edit: For those interested, discussion continues in this thread: Piano-Facilitated Homoeroticism at an Altitude of 10km: A Field Study
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Settie » Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:42 pm

So having recently watched the trailer again on my monitor this time ( watched it on a tablet the first time) and noticed something i didn't the first time.
SPOILER: Show
Image

Is there someone in that room? There's a suspicious black blob that i initially thought it might be the shadow of a railing but it looks too big to be that, so is it the head of a person. That "rooms" access point seems to be from the roof of it so if that is Shinjis prison then the blob might be his head.

Slightly unrelated but Reichu's talk of rainbows in impacts reminded me of this. It's a larger than a continent frozen impact that hasn't been mentioned in-universe since that brief appearance in 2.0. So there's a giant frozen impact over Antarctica that had been glossed over all this time and it got me thinking. What if the purpose for awakening Unit-13 was to power the 2nd Wunder and go to that Antarctica impact.

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:07 pm

That long thing attached to Eva 08's back is called the "Hakone Express." It's really difficult to see but the words "HAKONE 1 EXPRESS" are written around the large grey cylindrical sections on each section of the tail. I think it might be a multi-stage articulated booster rocket reminiscent of Eva 09's rocket tentacle cape. Eva 08 has thrusters attached directly to its back and each of the segments has a set of thrusters and small wings on the side.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Melkor » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:16 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:So how would that work, one Japanese woman boinked one British dude and a german one, but then wouldn't the Japanese surname at least be the same....


Who says that's how it had to have happened? They could do something like the manga did where Asuka was a test tube baby who was engineered to be perfect. It would create a deep contrast between Mari and Asuka. One is the imperfect undesirable child who was born through natural means, and the other is the perfect desirable child who was born through artificial means. I remember there was one scene in the manga where Kyoko was telling Asuka that she has to surpass some other woman's child, that child being one that her former husband had with another woman (the girl even kind of vaguely resembles Mari if she had her hair down and took off her glasses). A similar thing could have happened in the Rebuilds where Kyoko had Mari with some guy, but then Mari's father took her and left, so then Kyoko had Asuka created and wants her to be even better than her previous child that left with her former lover as a way of getting back at him. The idea of Mari being a Catholic schoolgirl could still work if after he left with her, Mari's father sent her to one of those schools. It all depends on execution. An idea that sounds stupid and fan-fictiony on paper can turn out really good if executed well.
Last edited by Melkor on Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:26 pm

That sort of thing tends to leave very specific kinds of trauma (either very angry & rebellious or very people pleasing) & Mari doesnt really act like that.
Besides she would have mentioned something like that when she jacked EVA 02 instead she just says that it "smells like someone else"



Also Sadamoto has stated often enough that the manga is its own thing & not intended to hint at anything with the rebuilds. I dont see why they would copy from the manga

I dont really get the idea that she looks like the half sister from the Manga she really doesnt. The sister has a characteristic little braid;
All they have in common is long dark hair which would describe most women on the planet
Besides shed be much older than Asuka.
A woman can only have 1 baby a year at most

I do agree that it would have been interesting to explore the half sister further or have her show up but she doesnt have anything to do with the rebuild continiuty

And again I really hope they let Mari stand for herself rather than tying her to another popular cannon character
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:35 pm

Dudes, like, Manga Mari is a wild different creature than NTE Mari. Manga Mari is subdued, quiet, and mostly closes everyone off. She isn't outgoing, and she seems very introverted. NTE Mari, on the other hand, is the crazy extrovert that would suddenly befriend Manga Mari, drag her out of the house, and force her to go bar hopping with her all night.

Now that I've typed that out, I think I've finally found the inspiration I need to write my own Evangelion fanfic....

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Melkor » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:42 pm

I'm not saying the Rebuilds are going to copy specific plot points from the manga exactly. Just that the writers could repurpose some of the general ideas or concepts in a way that fits with the lore of the Rebuilds. For example, the general concept or idea of Asuka being a test tube baby could ring true in some way, considering there is something called the Artificial Evolution Laboratory that the pilots were hinted to have been at as kids.

Even if something in the Rebuilds ends up resembling something from the manga, that doesn't necessarily mean that they got it from the manga. Two people can come up with the same thought independently of each other without one having been influenced by the other. At some point in the writing process, the writers could have arrived at a similar idea to something that was done in the manga without having been inspired by it or even having read it. With how much fiction there is in the world, chances are that at some point someone has already had the same idea as you, so it's inevitable that something that happens in a newer story will in some way end up resembling something that happened in an older story.

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:30 pm

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but doesn't it seem kinda obvious that the Mk.10 is piloted by the Rei from the first trailer (the one with creepy Fuyutsuki next to her)? Not that it has to be her necessarily.

I've thought it could that Rei Q is "retrieved" by Nerv and that's her, but it being a new clone seems like a logical development too.
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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:16 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I don't know if this has been mentioned, but doesn't it seem kinda obvious that the Mk.10 is piloted by the Rei from the first trailer (the one with creepy Fuyutsuki next to her)? Not that it has to be her necessarily.

I've thought it could that Rei Q is "retrieved" by Nerv and that's her, but it being a new clone seems like a logical development too.


Can there be 2 at once tho? It might be possible, no reason same rules from the tv show need to apply.

There is of course that Theory that ReiQ will kick the bucket early in the movie & that's a brand new one next to Fuyutsuki, but I really hope that's not it, would be a waste to axe her after spending all of Q introducing her.



On the other hand, since Asuka referred to ReiQ as an "early" Ayanami type we might find out whatever body horror a "later" type is(which I consider the most likely)

I mean, I'd assume that all the nemesis series are controlled by some kind of dummy plug.
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:01 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Can there be 2 at once tho? It might be possible, no reason same rules from the tv show need to apply.

No reason why not. The original Q preview showed 4 of them active at the same time, and the older one's uniform being left in the pile of belongings outside of Rei Q's room indicates something of the sort did indeed happen. Rei Q's very existence and Kaworu's explanation for why she can't be used for the mission at the climax of Q casts heavy doubt on the old rules.

That Eva that lands on Wunder might not be Mark.10. Overall it's nearly identical, but the face design is different from the one Anno shared at the lantern festival. It has an additional marking on the right side of its face, and it's framed in a way that makes it impossible to tell whether it has the crest on its head or not. Could potentially be Mark.11 or Mark.12.
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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:32 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:That Eva that lands on Wunder might not be Mark.10. Overall it's nearly identical, but the face design is different from the one Anno shared at the lantern festival. It has an additional marking on the right side of its face, and it's framed in a way that makes it impossible to tell whether it has the crest on its head or not. Could potentially be Mark.11 or Mark.12.

I just figured that was one of the inevitable differences between concept art and the final product, especially when the concept art was such a rough sketch. The Roman numeral X on the face has me convinced it’s supposed to be Mark 10.

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:36 pm

Oh.
Somehow it never occurred to me that the X might be a roman numeral
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby The_Max » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:53 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:That Eva that lands on Wunder might not be Mark.10. Overall it's nearly identical, but the face design is different from the one Anno shared at the lantern festival. It has an additional marking on the right side of its face, and it's framed in a way that makes it impossible to tell whether it has the crest on its head or not. Could potentially be Mark.11 or Mark.12.


View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:I just figured that was one of the inevitable differences between concept art and the final product, especially when the concept art was such a rough sketch. The Roman numeral X on the face has me convinced it’s supposed to be Mark 10.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:Oh.
Somehow it never occurred to me that the X might be a roman numeral


Guys, in the previous page of this topic I gave the answer to the Mark.10 mask symbol. It's a train signal and it's not a surprise taking into account the symbolism of trains in Evangelion.

In the sketch of Anno has the signal "no barrier level crossing of ONE railway", the "X".
In the trailer 3 has the signal "no barrier level crossing of MORE THAN ONE railway", the "X<".

The obvious speculation in the last case is the point where the 4 railways (represented as the 4 Adams) come together. Of course, the way that mask evolve and in which way is a mistery.
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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:01 am

The railway barrier sign idea is suggestive, but it's a long stretch to call it "obvious speculation". Not to mention that speculation is not obvious, by definition.
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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:10 am

ReiQ doesn't contain Lilith's soul apparently, so she isn't the same person as Rei apparently. There can probably be unlimited Rei clones of that sort.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
~('.'~) (~'.')~ Dancin Kirby

Gen3
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Re: Evangelion:3.0+1.0 Trailer 3 Discussion

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Postby Gen3 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:33 pm

Anno expressed some pretty lofty ambitions back when this whole "I'm going to retell Eva" thing started over a decade ago. He said he wanted to fight stagnation in the industry and move an exhausted industry forward. Have the trailers for 3.0 + 1.0 given anyone hope he'll actually pull this goal off or was this project a bust in that regard?


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