Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Re: Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

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Postby Shun » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:25 pm

In my opinion one of the most interesting statements made at the time of the birth of the NTE project is this: https://forum.evageeks.org/post/558496/Otsuki-Interview-November-2006/

We know for sure that the Anno's fixed point from the beginning of the NTE project is "to make Evangelion a pillar of animation like Gundam", and NTE had to be a sort of G-Evangelion, as in the Gundam franchise there is G -Gundam.
In my opinion the best way to make NTE as a story in its own right, but at the same time make it "connected" to the original NGE, is to legitimize an omniverse in which exist NGE, NTE and all the works that in the future could be part of the franchise (under the constraints imposed by Anno). Which is similar to the Gundam omniverse where there are various timelines (Universal Century, Future Century, After War, etc).
Instead, as regards what will happen in Shin Evangelion, in my opinion it would be interesting to integrate the multiple possibilities (karma-loop, time-loop, ancient) see here: https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20250/What-do-you-think-about-time-loop-karma-loop-and-multiverse/
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Re: Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

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Postby Blockio » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:34 pm

Here's the thing. Gundam doesn't have an omniverse. Everything is contained to itself, and different timelines do not have any narrative links to each other, it's all self-contained.
Turn A things  SPOILER: Show
Even Turn A that so many people into Gundam lore pretentious idiots claiming to be "the true Gundam fans" love to rave on about has no actual nnarrative connection, all that matters is that there was something else there, and beyond two clipshows what exactly it was is never brought up in the series

So yes, your comparison is on point, much like Gundam, Eva does not have a time loop multiverse; that part of the interview you linked has been discredited a lot of times to be a complete asspull, and has been outright contradicted by other staff later
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ Joseki
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

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Postby Shun » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:20 pm

Can you link a source that discredits this interview? If you mean that from 2006 to today Khara has changed/expanded the path, then I agree, but if you mean that in 2006 these statements were nonsense then you should explain yourself better. Burden of proof.
However I linked it for these considerations:

We're not going to confuse people with a metafictional ending along the lines of the TV version, or do an absurd, end-of-the-world type ending along the lines of the movie version. Oriented towards entertainment, the ending will be close to the idea from the beginning of planning. I wanted to do it all along, and the director finally came around to it.

Right. If I say too much it will be a spoiler (laughing). With the situation of society at that time, Anno-san's internal problems, and so on, and especially because the film version ended ruinously, with the world destroyed and Shinji and Asuka the only survivors, continuing the Eva of twelve years ago is not possible .

However, with the passing of twelve years, and the turn of a [new] age, Anno-san has settled things within himself. The new films should be, in a sense, Eva with a happy end, or if I had to express it in a single phrase, a story which leads to hope.


In 2006 they didn't intend to do an ending like NGETV, nor an ending like EoE, nor a sequel directed by EoE, their intention was to make a new story with a new ending that leads to hope. It doesn't seem a nonsense to me. As we know in 3.0 there is also talk of "hope", and since Shin Eva is Anno's big farewell to Evangelion, well, I think the ending will definitely be something new and show hope to Shinji. Obviously.

As for the Gundam / Eva comparison, I explained myself hastily . I wrote "[Eva omniverse] which is similar to the Gundam omniverse", meaning that Eva may have various alternative timelines / universes, each with its own story (NGE, NTE, etc), as Gundam has various alternate timelines/universes (UC, FC, etc), making the Eva franchise *similar* to Gundam's. But that doesn't mean Anno can't go one step further, and make explicitly these alternate timelines/universes parts of the same shared omniverse in a narrative sense. In Gundam the link is meta-narrative, i.e. what I call the "Gundam omniverse" is a set of works that are together at the level of the franchise, while Eva, perhaps, could admit explicitly a little link also on the narrative level, and in this case admit a multiverse. I mean "multiverse" as a narrative level of a set of alternate timelines/universes of the franchise omniverse.
What I mean is that Anno could use many sci-fi elements together. That is, If the Eva franchise will admit a common/shared narrative level in the omniverse, then NGE and NTE would be part of the same narrative multiverse, and alternate timelines don't need to mutually influence each other to achieve this. The time-loop could take place internally in NTE, for example connecting the Final Impact to the Second Impact or something else. The karma-loop on the other hand would be something similar to Reichu's theory, in which a series of events extends from ancient times to the present day. All these elements could coexist together, and in my opinion they would make Shin very interesting.
The only problem, in my opinion, is that Anno is enigmatic and implicit, so it is not certain that the narrative multiverse will be canonized in an explicit and clear way. If so, then I already imagine the discussions between who will say that a certain scene is a clue in favor of the multiverse, and who will oppose this idea, saying that Anno had to be more explicit. And the same thing could happen for the time-loop and for the karma-loop, if Shin Eva stays on an implicit and enigmatic level. But we'll see, maybe Shin Eva will be more explicit than we think. Until Shin Eva comes out, this is a possibility, none of us are sure what will happen.
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Re: Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

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Postby Blockio » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:30 am

View Original PostShun wrote:Can you link a source that discredits this interview? If you mean that from 2006 to today Khara has changed/expanded the path, then I agree, but if you mean that in 2006 these statements were nonsense then you should explain yourself better. Burden of proof.

There are quite a few that do on the statements by staff site, but this one by Kazuya Tsurumaki in a 2007 edition of Newtype magazine is a rather good example, particularily the last line
Kazuya Tsurumaki, one of the directors for the new Evangelion films, has strong words for naysayers who dismiss the project as a mere remake. "Nothing could be further from the truth!", he says. "This isn't about putting the same old story with slightly better animation techniques or touched-up footage. When we use the word "rebuild", we mean an honest-to-goodness rebuild, from the ground up. It's a fact that there were things we wanted to do in the original TV series that just weren't feasible at the time, and one of our goals in doing this is to find a way to put some of the ideas back in. Operation Yashima is a perfect example. It's something we really wanted to do right this time, and getting the chance to do that was one of my main reasons for accepting the role of director. But rehashing past efforts isn't the whole story--not by a long shot. There are plenty of sides to this story which I want to bring out that are very different from what you saw in the TV version."
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ Joseki
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:36 am

So, you know all of the Evangelion spin off mangas? Like, there's Angel's Days, there's Shinji Ikari Rising Project, and there's that one where Kaowru and Shinji are detectives that run around and solve cases together? Imagine TV anime adaptations of every one of those. I think that's what a "Gundam"-like animated Eva franchise will looks like; a bunch of different spin-offs and alternatives and stuff. (Maybe not those manga adaptations specifically, but stories that are as canonically tied to each other as those are, which is to say almost not at all.) When Anno said he wanted Eva to be the new "Gundam," he was probably thinking more industrial longevity and recognizability, and was probably not thinking of continuous narrative persistence. I mean, can you imagine an Evangelion-branded anything without Shinji, Asuka, and Rei? It almost wouldn't matter if it were Evangelion anymore. The franchise is too tied to its characters in order to do something as multiple-generation-spanning as Gundam. Spin-offs, reboots, and re-imaginings are what would probably work best for Evangelion. (Anime detective Kaworu+Shinji FTW!)

But this is getting off-topic. I do like how just the existence of 2.xx and 3.xx dispel any erroneous notions that NTE were simply shot-for-shot remakes on NGE. There were signs of that being trues all along in 1.xx that were mistakenly dismissed, and it'a great to see the series blossom into something else entirely.

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Re: Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

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Postby Shun » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:38 am

@Blockio
This interview doesn't contradict Otsuki's statements, but reinforces them. In both interviews, NTE is not referred to as a remake or direct sequel to NGE, but rather as a new work.

Interviewer: I think what many fans expect from you and Director Anno is a "second Eva" and not an "Eva remake."
Otsuki: This is often misunderstood, but it's true that I have never once said to Anno-san, "let's do a sequel to Eva," all these past twelve years. However, at last I recieved the following words from Anno-san: "I want to first of all create the 'foundation' for creating the 'next Eva'."

The interviewer understands the meaning of what Otsuki says and summarizes: this new movie version is really for the purpose of clearing the ground for the "next Eva".

The speech seems clear to me. NTE is the next Eva, a new story that will also have a new ending.

So I don't see any problems or contradictions. Did I write that NTE is the sequel to EoE, and did Shinji create a loop to recreate the world after Third Impact? No. Do you read well what others write?

Anno in CRC 2.0 says he got help to destroy the old NGE, to create a new thing. So the question is clear.
What I mean when I say about narratively linking the various Evangelion stories is just something like this: When Shinji enters the vortex and final impact happens he may find that every choice he makes during his life leads to different paths. Imagine a fanciful place with lots of soap bubbles, each bubble is an alternate reality, what Shinji's life could have been by changing some choice? Now increase the number of bubbles considering all the possibilities of the universe and the choices of all sentient beings. Endless possibilities. Among these there could be not only alternative versions of NTE, but also past (NGE, EoE, manga, etc) and future works. That is "all Evangelion".

Bye bye all of Evangelion.

But, it is simply a hypothesis.

_ _ _

When Anno said he wanted Eva to be the new "Gundam," he was probably thinking more industrial longevity and recognizability, and was probably not thinking of continuous narrative persistence.


Yes, I totally agree with this longevity thing, what I'm saying is to avoid imposing limits on what could happen in Shin Eva.
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Re: Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

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Postby Blockio » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:37 am

@Shun
When I wrote my initial response, I had a very different interview open that I though was the one you linked, but in retrospect must have been one linked in a different thread; my apologies for that, we do, in fact, talk to the same point

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:When Anno said he wanted Eva to be the new "Gundam," he was probably thinking more industrial longevity and recognizability, and was probably not thinking of continuous narrative persistence. I mean, can you imagine an Evangelion-branded anything without Shinji, Asuka, and Rei? It almost wouldn't matter if it were Evangelion anymore.

I firmly disagree. Anno was most definitely thinking about narrative consistence over reusing the same assets for stories that thrive entirely on fanservice and callbacks to the original. Eva without its original cast of characters can very much be Eva as long as the themes are present; if just the characters and nothing else is present, it'S not Eva anymore, but simply an empty shell, glorified fanfiction wearing the name of something that it is never going to reach.
Anime in general and mecha in particular is already is overly self-referrential and downright circular at times, Anno's whole work is to go against this trend, not create yet another facade of it.

anyway, back on topic
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ Joseki
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Theories Disproven By Outside Evidence

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:01 am

Blockio wrote:
Anno was most definitely thinking about narrative consistence over reusing the same assets for stories that thrive entirely on fanservice and callbacks to the original.

Well, there is the slight problem that while Gundam's main commercial draw is the main robots, then Eva's main commercial draw is the main characters. The only Eva Unit that probably has some fairly big market value by its own is Unit-01 and that has probably more to do with it having a fairly large presence in the story, not to mention having the soul of Yui. I would like Anno to allow others to create their own stories in another Eva Universe that only has some small mythological/technological connections to the previous works (just enough that it could still be called a part of the Evangelion franchise, but not so much as to not allow it its own separate identity), but commercially speaking there's no way that kind of approach is going to be explicitly viable, unless Anno intends to use Eva sparingly and/or gradually mold Eva's identity as a franchise towards this more separate idea, both of which could potentially work.

The main problem is that everything Anno's said is quite vague when one wants to make larger assumptions, so as of now we have nothing to do besides theorize and patiently wait for confirmation of what his plans are.


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