Since we are on the topic, I guess we can be glad that this didn't happen (probably NSFW but canon material:

Derantor wrote:Since we are on the topic, I guess we can be glad that this didn't happen (probably NSFW but canon material:

SPOILER: Show

Behold! A testsuit-design where you can see Asuka's labia.

That’s probably the design for Asuka’s plugsuit in 2.22.

Wonder why some people would find that attractive on a freaking 14 year old!

My memory of this is vague, but I remember that the man who designed the 2.0 Test Suit was famous (infamous?) for designing and drawing more-than-scandalous clothing for anime women. Fans of this particular designer were actually disappointed by Asuka's Test Suit, saying that it doesn't reveal nearly as much as the designer's more typical clothing sensibilities for his female characters revealed. This isn't to off-set blame from Anno, Khara, Gainax, whoever, during the production of Eva Ha. (After all, they sought him out to begin with.) One could argue that hiring this man to design said suit was evidence that Anno was being a pervert as well. Another could argue that Anno pushing for and ultimately selecting the least lewd design given the designer's previous work is actually a good sign that Anno is being more protective of his characters. And if your barometer of measure is how disappointed the perverts in the audience were when seeing Asuka's Test Suit, I would say that they were pretty disappointed. They were actually expecting more of what the rejected designs were showing, and less of Asuka's whole legs being completely covered (or whatever that artist usually does; I've never kept up with him).

Honestly, even the used Test Plug Suit design is a little off-putting for me. But, like I said, I'm a 33-year-old man. My male gaze has become a lot more "You're not going out dressed like that, are you?" and way less "Hey, that teenager looks hot." But Evangelion is a franchise that is primarily targeted towards teenagers. Teenagers thinking that other teenagers look "hot," "sexy," or "kinda cute," is completely normal and natural. Whether or not adults should help facilitate imagery that caters to that thought pattern depends entirely on the adults' sensibilities, intentions, and motivations for presenting that imagery in the first place. I truly think that Anno is acting in mostly good faith in helping teens find meaning in a part of their life that is bombarded with new sexual urges. There might be some missteps here and there in Anno's official series, but I think his overall goal is mostly admirable. Shinji being asked to look past the sexually tantalizing, to go out and "learn how the world works," is, I think, an aspect in their lives in which many teens need encouragement. Think about it; he started this whole mess by his relation to Rei. In Eva Jo, Shinji saw this attractive young girl who seemed pretty helpless, unable to pilot Eva Unit 01, and only then decided to help out. In Eva Ha, Shinji then goes out of his way to show special considerations for this girl, making food that she would be more interested in eating, catching her alone at the aquarium to talk to her, etc. And then finally he almost ends the entire world just to save her from an inevitable and (for the girl) an accepted fate. He suffers the consequences for these actions in Eva Q, waking up from a 14-year "coma" only to discover that he may not have actually saved the girl after all. So he tried to take the extra step to reset the entire world, which will, in part, give him the girl back. (He just didn't expect to also be forming feeling off Kaworu while doing that.) But in doing so he only screwed the world over even more, and now has to stew in that fact over and over again. Mari telling him to "learn how the world works" is what all of this (mostly, but not always, tame) sexual imagery has been leading to. Shinji needs to learn how to work through his complex emotions and figure out how to best help those around him.

Admittedly, having a 4-part film series targeted to teenagers being released over the course of 13+ years means that no teen alive when any of these films came out would have been a teen throughout the series' entire production. So, while the series narrative messaging seems to be very on point about these things, their individual releases cannot be fully appreciated by that age-determined demographic at the time all of these movies were being released to theaters. This is, in part, why Young Adult Fiction film series to come out a year a part from one another in the US; producers know that they only have about 7 years to finish their story, or they're gonna lose that audience for Hunger Games as soon as they hit some point in their 20's and most of them start having real jobs. After 13-ish years of NTE specifically, we as the audience are kinda losing sight of what the original intent and demographic for these movies are. (I'm not bashing Anno for taking his sweet, sweet time making these movies, but it is still a thing that must be considered when it comes to the relationship Anno intended these movies to have with his claimed targeted audience.)

TL;DR: I'm not against the use of sexuality in Anno's Eva on the principle of its misguided interest from the main character being shown to constantly lead to world devastation and depression. It's fundamentally difficult to argue that something is "pro" something when that thing it's depicting is always leads to devastation and depression. That's not a "pro" anything message. So far, it's an "anti" message. However, some of the other artists involved with other parts of the Eva franchise tend to keep the sexuality divorced from the "sad stuff," and come out with a message that is very unnerving in more than a few ways.

I don't know, man. Teenagers viewed through a teenage lens still sounds fishy to me. Like if you want to make the kind of film where you treat teenagers in a manner where you don't shy away from the sexual part of their lives, it's usually logical to do that in a way where you don't create Fan Service: The Character and give another the kind of attire that I believe was rightly called a ''slutsuit'' in this forum once. I'm still all for the meta angle since I think that's a far better explanation for these decisions and why Anno decided to hire a designer specifically known for porno-edged designs.

The idea of sex as a theme is interesting, though. I'm not that certain that this is something intended by Anno in exactly the way you proposed, but it may have some role. The role of sex and sexuality in human relationships is a theme of the original NGE, so it shouldn't be that big of a leap to include something along those lines in NTE. The idea of Shinji learning to overcome his immediate desires/needs/wants works well with the general idea of becoming a better human person by trying and I guess this whole ''desire'' thing could also work with the audience, who Anno probably thinks are also stuck in a cycle of feeding themselves their petty desires without attempting to break the cycle and become better people throughout-which the part of the audience he is intent on criticizing/lecturing is.

And there's some rather perverse sexual imagery in 3.33, too, only further cementing this theory...

So anyway, thank you for this since you've just added even more richness to NTE for me.

I mean, sex is a theme of Evangelion. It’s not the theme, though. It plays some role in the series; maybe not even second fiddle, but it plays a distinctive a role nonetheless. Either way, there’s lot to be gleaned from it, and I’m happy I was able to help you find something more rich in the series through it. But I am also right there with anyone who says the “Slutsuit” or that weird panty shot went too far. I find those to be somewhat distracting from what the rest of the series seems to be trying to do.

Or, on the other hand, Shin Eva might finally come out and just reveal itself to be two solid hours of Mari and Asuka bikini booty shaking, and I was just wasting my time thinking that there was anything important in the sexual themes this whole time. Who knows? (Something similar happened with Oreimo, and it could happen again.)

I hope you were joking with the booty shaking since there's literally nothing pointing to that besides from maybe Eva merch which Anno seems to use as some kind of money maker to then use for creating actually good artworks which at times showcase Anno's rather high personal standards re: art.

I don't think the ''slutsuit'' or the panty shot really went too far. They were disgusting, yes, but they were meant to be disgusting. A normal human being should be disgusted and distracted by near-pornographic sexualization of 14-year-olds and I think that's partially Anno's aim.

Now, I'm not up-to-date on anime and know hilariously little about the larger state of it, but if the ''slutsuit'' designer is actually famous for these lewd designs then that means he is popular to a certain extent (you even mentioned him having fans) and there have been anime where his designs have been used. If they're less disgusting than what we saw in 2.22, then that's probably just because we're talking of-age women here, not some teenagers. So it's entirely possible, it seems to me, that there is a market for blatant perverted sexualization in anime, so I wouldn't be surprised if 2.22 was actually more tame in some regards than other things, like Rent a Girlfriend, one of the few generic anime I've seen and which I was properly disgusted by. It's worth pointing out that 2.22 has still more psychological complexity and artistic integrity than, say, Naruto. 2.22 is basically what most people would like Eva and anime to be, but I think Anno didn't want to go the full round and in terms of NGE itself, the idea was probably to make a film that took Eva and made it more generic and commercial, not to make something that was truly all that generic and commercial. That's just my two cents.

Gendo's Papa has also spoken about how there's a certain dose of misogyny in 2.22 that is then upended by the more feministic 3.33, which may be something of a theme too-I'm not too sure myself. But Anno does love deep complexity. (And there is some misogynism in over-sexualization even if it is unintentional.)

C.T.1290 wrote:The prime example of that would be the Shinji Ikari Raising Project manga.

That's not an example of the sexualization of the characters in EVA. That's an example of the sexualization of the characters in Shinji Ikari Raising Project manga, which has nothing to do with the main series and films.

Personally, I do think it's problematic at times. I think that most of the sexuality exists to enrich the work in some meaningful way, but it inevitably falls into the typical anime traps of being a little excessive and distasteful. Stuff like the silhouettes in the opening seems to exaggerate certain sexual qualities beyond what I would consider justifiable decent. I know it makes sense for his character, but Kaji is a borderline rapist. I also consider the first scene of End of Evangelion one of my favorites in any film, though, because it's an unflinching and pretty believable portrayal of the nasty aspects of sexuality. The extended media isn't something I would even consider as it's largely irrelevant, pandering trash in my opinion. No offense if you like the sorts of things it does, but it's very different from the primary media of the franchise and does not appeal to me. The Rebuilds are weird, and I honestly couldn't tell you whether or not even like them. They definitely lean more into the typical anime garbage, which I find off-putting. It seems to me though like a lot of it is supposed to be some sort of insane metacommentary on the reception of the franchise by the public and the way it's found financial success. It seems like a parody of itself so often. I have to wonder if that suit design was an intentional choice as part of pointing out how absurd fetishizing these characters who are very young and subject to all sorts trauma is. I've only seen the Rebuilds once several years ago, so I'd have to get back to you on that one after a rewatch with more mature and discerning eyes.

Zusuchan wrote:I hope you were joking with the booty shaking since there's literally nothing pointing to that besides from maybe Eva merch which Anno seems to use as some kind of money maker to then use for creating actually good artworks which at times showcase Anno's rather high personal standards re: art.

I'm 100% joking, but also saying that I've been astronomically wrong before. Anno is much, much better than most other Japanese creators, so I'm pretty sure he's not gonna pull a stupid stunt like that.

FreakyFilmFan4ever: Oh, good.

gibbdude: I strongly urge you to watch the Rebuilds again. I think you'll find plenty of new things and quite a degree of proof for the meta angle.

I’ll make a confession when I say that I came across some doujin works by Saigado, two of which features a grown up Asuka and a grown up Rei. And it might be disturbing because of how they featured some grown ups having sex with an underage kid.

C.T.1290 wrote
grown up Asuka and a grown up Rei.

A grown up Asuka and Rei having sex with children?
That sounds weird?

Do you mean that theirs a timejump in the story and they are now adults that have sex? That seems pretty okay.

Doujins are where a lot of gross perverts collect to be gross perverts. I’ve never really considered them part of an official IP or a true reflection on the fanbase as a whole. They’re just examples of horny people being such.

Yeah, taking porn parodies as example for the problems with anything is as good an idea as using graffiti on the side of a train car as a primary source in your thesis, that is to say not at all

C.T.1290 wrote:I’ll make a confession when I say that I came across some doujin works by Saigado, two of which features a grown up Asuka and a grown up Rei. And it might be disturbing because of how they featured some grown ups having sex with an underage kid.

I wish we'd get more stuff of the kids as happily married, fully consenting adults.

Who knows, they might even be holding hands.

FelipeFritschF wrote:I wish we'd get more stuff of the kids as happily married, fully consenting adults.

Who knows, they might even be holding hands.

Hand holding is the lewdest of them all!

orcot wrote:A grown up Asuka and Rei having sex with children?
That sounds weird?

Do you mean that theirs a timejump in the story and they are now adults that have sex? That seems pretty okay.

In those doujin works I mentioned, Shinji is still 14 while Asuka and Rei are like 28 in those ones.

I’ll just let that sink in.

C.T.1290 wrote:Hand holding is the lewdest of them all!


In those doujin works I mentioned, Shinji is still 14 while Asuka and Rei are like 28 in those ones.

I’ll just let that sink in.

So does that mean it's set in the same continuity as the Rebuilds, where they still look 14 but are actually 28, or is it some kind of AU where they actually look physically like adults while Shinji still looks 14 physically?

Melkor wrote:So does that mean it's set in the same continuity as the Rebuilds, where they still look 14 but are actually 28, or is it some kind of AU where they actually look physically like adults while Shinji still looks 14 physically?

A different au. A non canon type, as expected of most doujin works.

Melkor wrote:So does that mean it's set in the same continuity as the Rebuilds, where they still look 14 but are actually 28, or is it some kind of AU where they actually look physically like adults while Shinji still looks 14 physically?

A different au. A non canon type, as expected of most doujin works.

funny things abouth those dojins.
I did some quick searches yesterday (for research)
I used a popular site the term evangelion had 4554 result
Rei had:2278
Asuka had:2645
Shinji had:1873
Toji had: 105
kaworu had:320
Misato had:612
Ritsuko had:371
Gendo had: 179
Kaji had: 135

That is a interesting distribution. Asuka and Rei are the most popular by far. I also espected to have more women then men however the revers seem to be true I was tempted to put maya in the line to get a even number but then you had to add the 2 men aswel.