Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only.

Moderator: Board Staff

Marfil
Embryo
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Marfil » Wed May 06, 2020 12:18 pm

Reading old threads in the forum I was reminded of End of Evangelion’s alleged alternative endings, referred as Last A and Last B.

In short. Does anyone know what is the original source for the alleged alternative endings and how reliable the source is? I know this is not new, but reevaluating the evidence today in 2020, has it become any clearer whether these alternative endings are legitimate or not? Are there any pictures circulating?

If you know what I am talking about, you can skip to the end. For those who do not know what I am talking about, or who like me vaguely remember what this is about but now wonder the basis for it, here is an explanation:

✂————You can skip to the end ———— ✂

The alternative endings (more precisely, alternatives to the last scene One More Final – I need you) are mentioned in the Evageek’s EvaWiki entries for Episode 26' and Theory and Analysis:Final Scene in End of Evangelion. The references in both entries point to Olivier Hagué, who introduced them for the first time to English speaking forums about Evangelion, according to someone called Mdwigs. In some places it is stated that Olivier Hagué himself had direct access to a physical copy of a draft to the script/storyboard of the End of Evangelion in Japanese. In other places the insinuation is that Olivier only had indirect access and that the original source leaked them first to a Japanese website or forum.

I believe there is no working link to the first website or forum where it was leaked, but there is a copy of the text in Japanese on Evageeks for episode 25’ and episode 26’. It is my understanding that the only additional information of these scripts is the alternative endings Last A and Last B. Or at least I have not seen any other tidbit from them being discussed elsewhere.

My question is, is there any solid evidence for these scripts (and the alternative endings Last A and Last B mentioned in them) being authentic? If so, does someone know which is the alleged source? Does anyone have a photo of the alleged scripts/storyboards? Has Anno or anyone else involved commented about its veracity?

I am familiar with several types/tiers of Evangelion canon outside the series and movies themselves: reference material officially published (designs and drawings like Groundworks still on circulation, or storyboards like the storyboard compilation/絵コンテ集 out of circulation but available second-hand), official material that has been presented in exhibitions but has not been printed (such as the Evangelion proposal before production, for which pictures can be found online or in magazines), official or at least sanctioned background material provided for video games and other media (the alien race theories of Evangelion are based on some canon for a video game), and interviews to Anno and the people involved (like when Anno weighted on Misato definitely not killing Kaji). I mention this because in the past a lot of fan speculation, if not downright fan fiction, was mixed with these second tier but nonetheless canonical sources. As the Internet and Evangelion community evolved, and also as more people started helping with Japanese translations, it became possible to track the original sources. Yet, none of these categories seem to include or at least backup indirectly the alleged scripts describing the alternative endings to Evangelion.

After reviewing this topic now I’m skeptical about these alternative endings. A physical copy of the script/storyboard could certainly be auctioned for some decent money. And while the ‘I don’t have a scanner’ excuse was fine for the Internet in the early 2000s — seriously, that was the excuse of why Olivier did not upload any pictures in the past —, I find it hard to believe nobody has upload a cellphone picture of the scripts today. It’s not like a picture or a printed document could not be faked, but the fact that there isn’t even a picture circulating adds to my suspicions.

The same author (Mdwigs) of the website cited as source on Evageek’s EvaWiki, corrected later on Animeboards — but not on the article linked by Evageek’s EvaWiki — that “actually it turns out that Olivier didn't have the originals, the scans were in references to scenes from the storyboard book.” It is not clear to me when did Mdwings make that edit, and whether by that correction Mdwigs meant Olivier made it all up, or only made up/there was a mix up about there being a hard copy or scans somewhere.

Incidentally, having access to the Groundworks and looking at some pictures online of the storyboard compilation/絵コンテ集, my impression is that, the two alternative endings aside, some of the information of the alleged leaked draft script/storyboard is included in the official and final scripts. But the information is very general and could be taken from watching the movies themselves, or the official scripts which were published as books shortly after in the form of storyboard compilation/絵コンテ集 in 1998 and Groundworks in 2002.

Looking for the name used on the Evageeks page (裏台詞補完計画), or randomly for parts of the text on Google (1, 2, 3, 4), the only results are Evageeks itself, and a handful of Japanese blogs and forum posts. No first sources nor even a considerable number of places where the information is repeated to at least give it the status of an urban legend in Japan.

So far, I present the information as is. But you can probably see where I am going, I suspect the information was made up by a Japanese person in Japanese imitating an animation script, and Olivier naively or intentionally passed it along. Not a big deal, but I wonder why is this up on the EvaWiki? The EvaWiki has plenty of good information in other areas, in fact the only reason I went into this rabbit hole was because I saw the information being repeated on the EvaWiki and in Evageek’s forum — otherwise I would have dismissed it —.

✂——————Welcome back——————— ✂

For what is worth, I am not trying to uncover any conspiracy. I also know this does not change the interpretation of the End of Evangelion. I do not even consider for my personal canon anything outside the series and the movies themselves. I just want to know if there is some evidence for the alternative endings as having this information in your brain and not compensating for it can start coloring my/your memories of the show.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 24044
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed May 06, 2020 12:41 pm

The drafts are so completely convincing that I've never once questioned their authenticity. They mimic Anno's writing style down to terms he overuses; Anno's fixations are flawlessly channeled; they contain asides about production that AFAIK check out; point out very obscure details in the film (including ones that would have been near impossible to discern before the remastered version of EoE was available); include cut lines that actually provide context to some of the most arcane elements in the final movie; and so on. So many things add up that I don't see how they could have been faked.

It would be nice to get verification and all -- that bit of uncertainty is never fun to deal with -- but this would have certainly been an illicit leak. That sort of thing is a huge no-no in Japan; nobody now is going to fess up to something like that. The current state of the Internet is also an extremely poor reflection of what the Internet was like in the late 90s and early 00s -- an unimaginable amount of content is gone -- which makes searches very limited in their usefulness. I would have reached out to the Japanese fandom for any possible answers long ago if I had any ability in that area, but alas...

Incidentally, having parts in common with the storyboard version is no comment on authenticity. Grab copies of the Evangelion Original books. The screenplays in there, which are absolutely official, can be anything from "line by line identical to final version" to "completely unrecognizable". A brief survey of production materials doesn't cut it. There's no way you're going to know what is or isn't probably a fake unless you have an intimate knowledge of what's verifiably real.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

Marfil
Embryo
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Marfil » Wed May 06, 2020 1:30 pm

Reichu, thank you for the reply.

I am more interested about the possibility of the script being real than it being fake. I rarely post on forums these days, so my motivation for posting was to actually find if someone had evidence of the contrary of my hypothesis that the script might be fake, something that I could not find myself. I say this to assure you that I am genuinely interested in whatever evidence or argument you can give and that I am not wasting your time.

Could you please elaborate in more detail why you believe the script is real? And what is your process for having that conclusion? From your reply, it seems you base your conclusion on the contents of the script itself, regardless of where did it originate. Is that right? I could also be convinced by the content itself if it was so special as to put in second place the problem of origin (although I do not think it can be completely put away).

I have so many questions, I have tried to divide them in categories.

1. What is special about the content of the script?
I really would appreciate if you could elaborate more about what makes the script seem authentic? Are there other drafts or scripts of Anno available from its other works or even better Evangelion? Compared to what can we determine Anno’s writing style? Would it be really not possible to write the script based on the movie and the storyboard compilation/絵コンテ集? My Japanese is not so good, but you could explain about common terms or style in Japanese or English.

2. Can the script and the alternative endings be separated?
Do you think is possible that the script is legitimate, but the alternative endings were added by someone else?

3. What is your theory about the origin of the script?
Do you think Olivier Hagué has anything to do with the first leak? And when do you think the script first leaked?
Why is the script so central to Evageeks, relatively speaking, yet not so extensively quoted in Japanese sites? Is this a mistake in how I’m looking for Japanese websites? Can you give examples of Japanese sites or magazines talking about the script?
With the renewed interest in Evangelion because of the Rebuild why has there not been any additional information leaked about the script? People would pay for the script itself, and media would pay for just pictures. Nobody needs pictures of the whole script, just a partial photo would be enough if the leaker is worried it could be traced back to it.

4. Do you know if there is direct or indirect confirmation somewhere? Like information that was only in the script but then appeared on some of the content they use on Evangelion exhibitions?

5. Last. I see that the script is mostly being quoted because of the alternative endings. But leaving those aside, what do you think is the most interesting thing about the script?

Let me reiterate. I’m not trying to wast your time or move the goalpost. I genuinely want to learn more about this. I know these are many questions, and I do not expect you to answer to every single point I bring up. Whichever point you would like to expand more on it would be greatly appreciated.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 24044
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed May 06, 2020 3:01 pm

At the moment, I don't have the ability to answer your questions to anywhere near the level of detail you would like. Doing a full dissertation on the matter would probably require that the drafts be fully translated; the storyboard-vs-final film changes get thoroughly documented for comparison purposes; comparing the production-related comments in the script to verified production information; going through all of the bits of genuine insight in the drafts and weighing those against the possibility that a fan made it all up; checking a variety of non-Eva production scripts to make absolutely sure I'm not imagining things to be Anno-isms that actually aren't; etc. etc. etc. It would be a significant undertaking.

I can address some things, though.

The endings are simply part of the episode 26' draft. They were transcribed from the same document (check out the archived script and look for the 2-digit number that represents the page number). Near the end of the script, it offers two possibilities for an ending instead of just one, and labels them "A" and "B" accordingly. ("Last" in this context is waseigo -- a word borrowed from English that's used in a distinctly Japanese manner -- for "Ending".) The reason why fans mostly just talk about the endings is probably for a similar reason as why most of the useful lore content from Evangelion 2 is never mentioned and one just hears "Classified Information" this, "Classified Information" that. In both cases, a small part of a much greater whole gets translated long before anything else, and thus becomes "primary" in the imagination of the fandom.

Anno's screenplays for the TV series have been published in the books Evangelion Original I through III. The storyboards utilize a more revised version of the screenplay that is combined with technical notes (i.e. stuff only the animators are going to care about). The DVDs and Blu-Rays include a version of the scripts that is slightly more finalized than the storyboards (except for episodes 21' through 24', where the scripts are very obviously incomplete; the production materials for the revisions have not been made available outside of selections in the DEATH storyboards and Groundworks Vol.3).

Probably my favorite thing about the draft is that it includes more hints about what Eva-01 becoming an "Ark" actually means, and it is pretty consistent with the Seed mythology that would later appear in Evangelion 2. (Eva-01 becoming a "second-generation Seed" by the movie's end was an idea I had long before I saw the lines in the script draft that further hinted at the concept.)

EDIT: 裏台詞補完計画 is a webpage header from the now-defunct fan site that had originally hosted the scripts. The parts of interest are the actual script headers, which are:

第25話 「夏への扉」 (第2稿・社内検討用)
#26『まごころを、君に』新脚本(第6 稿改・社内検討用)

Searching by the episode title plus draft number (e.g. 第2稿) should produce results. Probably not any good ones, but... I honestly have no idea how to "break into" the fan scene over there.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

Marfil
Embryo
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Marfil » Thu May 07, 2020 11:10 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:At the moment, I don't have the ability to answer your questions to anywhere near the level of detail you would like. Doing a full dissertation on the matter would probably require that the drafts be fully translated; the storyboard-vs-final film changes get thoroughly documented for comparison purposes; comparing the production-related comments in the script to verified production information; going through all of the bits of genuine insight in the drafts and weighing those against the possibility that a fan made it all up; checking a variety of non-Eva production scripts to make absolutely sure I'm not imagining things to be Anno-isms that actually aren't; etc. etc. etc. It would be a significant undertaking.


Reichu, thank you very much for your explanation. You are right, textual analysis of the script would be overkill. In all seriousness it could be thesis material and take years to do so.

I am still curious, just as an anecdote, and not related to this specific thread about the Anno-isms you mention. If they are interesting they might deserve their own thread. If they are boring I understand you mentioning that they exist and can be picked upon, but do not deserve to be expanded.

I am not able to pick on Anno-isms. But for what I can get from reading the script in Japanese, it does seem legit at least in the sense that it resembles a true anime script. If it is fake, it would have taken a huge amount of work. I am naive and can’t think why would anyone fake it, but then again that happens a lot in the world, even if there is no economic reward.

It is precisely because something like textual analysis would be so difficult and time consuming that I was wondering if other evidence had popped during these 20 years, like Anno commenting on an interview, or a a Sadamoto drawing that happens to show something that did not make it to the movie but was on those scripts, or one of those video games randomly having a quote from the scripts, or one page of the script showing up at an Evangelion exhibition. Since you have not mention any tidbit about this and you know extensively about it, I assume there has not been anything like that. Perhaps someone else has found one example. Maybe I am overthinking it, does Sadamoto manga perhaps have any reference shared with the script?

Unsaid in all this is, off course, that I was wondering if the Rebuild would do any nod to ideas from this script. As discussed here at Evageeks, the interpretation of the last scene of End of Evangelion does change a little if you consider the leaked script or not.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Anno's screenplays for the TV series have been published in the books Evangelion Original I through III. The storyboards utilize a more revised version of the screenplay that is combined with technical notes (i.e. stuff only the animators are going to care about). The DVDs and Blu-Rays include a version of the scripts that is slightly more finalized than the storyboards (except for episodes 21' through 24', where the scripts are very obviously incomplete; the production materials for the revisions have not been made available outside of selections in the DEATH storyboards and Groundworks Vol.3).


It is my understanding that storyboards are done after the script and are more elaborated. Is that right? I assume there is some chance for the script to be more detailed than the storyboard if some particular scene is being rewritten. I got confused because you mention sometimes a storyboard being more detailed than a script, and sometimes a script being more detailed than a storyboard.

From the media you mentioned here, which is the closest to the leaked script in form? Evangelion Original, or perhaps the scripts on the DVDs and Blu-Rays? You mentioned here and before that storyboards are different from the script. After checking them myself I am also getting convinced that it would be too difficult to start from a storyboard and make a fake script. I also believe what you say, that if you read both, it would be easy to pick on Anno-isms, even if nobody had the time to do textual analysis of it, it would not be objective proof, but at least for me it would be subjective and good enough proof.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Probably my favorite thing about the draft is that it includes more hints about what Eva-01 becoming an "Ark" actually means, and it is pretty consistent with the Seed mythology that would later appear in Evangelion 2. (Eva-01 becoming a "second-generation Seed" by the movie's end was an idea I had long before I saw the lines in the script draft that further hinted at the concept.)


What is a second-generation Seed? Is this some term from that additional cannon or an expression you thought yourself? Second-generation as in one seed creating another? (Lilith is a seed, then lilim a tree, then Eva 01 with S2 —and Longinus?— a seed again). Or in the sense of the second-generation being more powerful or more in some way because it combines two seeds (Adam and Lilith combined into Eva 01)?

View Original PostReichu wrote:EDIT: 裏台詞補完計画 is a webpage header from the now-defunct fan site that had originally hosted the scripts. The parts of interest are the actual script headers, which are:

第25話 「夏への扉」 (第2稿・社内検討用)
#26『まごころを、君に』新脚本(第6 稿改・社内検討用)

Searching by the episode title plus draft number (e.g. 第2稿) should produce results. Probably not any good ones, but... I honestly have no idea how to "break into" the fan scene over there.


Here is where the debate turns frustrating, because I myself will admit that what I am going to say sounds like a conspiracy. I will not insist in this point unless someone besides Reichu is interested on it. I would also rather ask many other questions to Reichu. But I will summarize what I have found so far (all that is written below is not addressed at Reichu particularly, it is for everyone):

✂————You can skip to the end ———— ✂

No matter in how many ways you look for the scripts (episode plus title 第2稿, 第6 稿改, variations of these, just a few lines of dialogue, etc.) on Google or Yahoo Japan, the only result is in most cases only Evageeks and a few foreigner sites all citing each other or Olivier Hagué as source. I am talking about 1 or two pages at most of results in Google, and often only 1 page of results with Evageeks and another site at most. There is practical no reference to the scripts in Japanese websites or forums. Only a few fragments sometimes emerge in forums, but nothing like the full reproduction of the text — and there is also no take down notices —. You have to actually click on the results, not just see the titles as they seem to be at least some, but in reality most pages just appear in the results because of automated links in some part of their code or widgets, but have no related content at all (nothing nefarious, this happens a lot on Google).

I only could find two Japanese sites (1, 2). The first one has Evageeks as source. The second one by “kiratei” is as old as June, 1999, and it also includes the two alternative endings Last A and Last B. Could this be the original source?!

The website age.ne.jp that is cited as source by Mdwigs and EvaOtaku (and by Evageeks/Evawiki indirectly, since it uses Mdwinds as source) is not accessible anymore, but you can find it on the Wayback Machine. The oldest page including the script is as old as October, 1999. However there is no mention to the alternative endings Last A and Last B, nor is there any mention of the director comments about camera or cuts. There are descriptions of the visuals, nonetheless. In other words it is just a transcript of the audio from the movie. The page includes a mention of “Members of the Script Instrumentality Committee” (a pun on Human Instrumentality Committee), and it was the work of 7 people, with Taro Toukai (apparently the nickname of Taro Igarashi 五十嵐 太郎) being the main one and owner of the page. There is no explanation about where they got the script — I assume no explanation is needed as it is presented as/assumed to be a transcript rather than a leaked script —.

I do not think it is likely, but I wonder if the transcript from age.ne.jp/Taro Toukai got at some point turned into the “leaked script” as seen in Kiratei (or some other Japanese site where Kiratei got it from).

I also found the original Google Groups discussion/ Japan.anime.evangelion newsgroup where Olivier discussed the scripts for the first time in October, 2000.

What I still find the most intriguing is why this does not feature more in the Japanese web. To get an idea, as of today “evangelion” has 35,300,000 results on Google. The same term in Japanese, "エヴァンゲリオン" has 29,000,000 results in Google. The precise numbers do not matter, what is important is that both are equiparable, and Japanese is the original source for almost all original content about Evangelion. Yet, the results for this leaked script are mostly only found in English or other foreign websites. I am not saying it proves anything, but it is extremely unusual.

It’s like if after the Earth, Moon and Sun were lost you found a robot floating through space and could not explain where did it come from.

✂——————Welcome back——————— ✂

My working theory (without dismissing Reichu’s belief that the script is real), is that if the script is false it originated in the Japanese web but it was dismissed, perhaps because of subtle things that gave it away to a native Japanese reader, or for more familiarity with how an anime script would look like. While on the other hand the English community picked it as it was, with Olivier Hagué being the first or one of the first ones, and focussed immediately on translating parts of it. One last piece is that Mdwigs and others confused the transcript from age.ne.jp/Taro Toukai, which is only a transcript, with the alleged leaked script, and since the site was not accessible anymore people did not try to look anymore where the leaked screen originated.

If the script is real, looking at Kiratei’s site there is perhaps a clue of where dit it come from. As far as I have found, that is the oldest source existing (still up or in Wayback Machine form), and seems to be older than Olivier’s posts.

I will take a look at one of the other scripts officially available that Reichu mentioned and see if the similarities/Anno-isms are evident enough for me to accept the script as real, regardless of where it came from.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 24044
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Thu May 07, 2020 1:16 pm

Use this archived version. The scripts are under the "裏?".

I would assume that the "original source" is completely gone from the Internet and has been for some time. The Internet Archive isn't searchable, and the Internet is also much, MUCH bigger than search engines would lead one to believe. If something were genuinely leaked, it would probably pass between hands in relative secrecy, only getting posted anywhere once there was no way to trace it back to its source.

The number of hits in Japanese or otherwise is fairly non-indicative. Evangelion is a major commercial property, and a cultural phenomenon. How many of those hits are actually geek-tier? How many of them pertain to just the original production, and not the latest thing (the new movies)? (In my limited attempts to search for actually relevant "extreme geek" sites in Japanese, I've been pretty disappointed by how little has survived to the present day.) Consider that even with something as new and hot as the 3+1 Avant1, I was (last time I tried, anyway) only able to find a single site that transcribed the dialogue.

The script stuff gets confusing. Let me try to explain again. Here's what's available to us; the numbers go from "earlier" (less revised) to "newer" (more revised).

1. Evangelion Original I~III: These contain the earliest available versions of the scripts. The leaked drafts follow this format. At this stage, nothing has been done yet to formally prepare the script for filming.
2. Storyboards: Dialogue and descriptions are significantly revised from (1). The script has been split up into cut numbers and storyboarded. Sound effects and technical notes are present. Many differences from the finalized episode may be present.
3. DVD/BD Script: Resemble the storyboards, but have the images and technical notes omitted. Dialogue, cut breakdowns, etc., generally matches the final episode.

The "Anno-isms" may be all in my head, since I'm not exactly well-read in Japanese scripts outside of Eva... It's mostly just down to a gut feeling, developed over many years of looking at Eva scripts, studying Eva in general, getting a feel for Anno's personality via interviews, and so on. Nothing authoritative, but... There's certainly enough non-Anno Eva stuff floating around to know what "Eva without Anno" feels like.

As for possible references in the new movies: The scripts do describe Eva-01 laying on the Moon's surface at the end; and in the new movies, Mark.06 is first seen laying on the Moon's surface. (This isn't as random as it looks, either, since Mark.06 is identified with Lilith rather strongly. Eva-01 was a Lilith clone in NGE, but this no longer seems true in the new movies; Mark.06 might have taken over that role, or the closest thing to that role.) I'll have to keep an eye open for possible others. (EDIT: Fixed the description to account for lapse in my memory.)

Getting in contact with holdouts of the original NGE Japanese fandom would probably be the easiest way to clear up a lot of the mystery around these "alleged EoE drafts". That's far beyond my skill level, though.

Re: "Second-Generation Seed", that refers to the idea of humanity being a self-perpetuating cycle. So, for example:

me geeking out over sci-fi stuff  SPOILER: Show
First Ancestral Race -> Seed of Life (Lilith) -> Lilin -> Seed of Life (Eva) -> ???

According to this, Eva-01 is a second-generation Seed of Life, since the FAR and Lilith are the "first generation". (Once Eva-01 has generated offspring, the Lilin could retroactively be considered the "Second Ancestral Race".) The hints that this is what's going on in EoE are certainly there, as part of the "sci-fi upgrade" that the revised 21' through 24' and EoE confer to NGE's final act. But they are extremely arcane, as if Anno was going out of his way to include near-subliminal elements.

The (alleged) leaked drafts elaborate upon this particular mystery. There are additional lines that bluntly make it clear that "the Ark" refers to using the Eva as an interstellar transport; human souls are implied to have originated from space; and so on. This is creatively consistent with NGE's decision to make Adam and Lilith progenitor aliens who arrived on Earth inside "Moons". The draft is saying, without actually spelling it out, that Eva-01 will continue this cycle.

Evangelion 2 would come out years after the leaked scripts and spell out the "alien colonizers" backstory in plain words. Based solely on analogies between Eva2's Seed of Life information and EoE, I arrived upon the (rather unpopular at the time) idea that Eva-01 became a new Seed of Life by the end of the film. So imagine my surprise when the EoE drafts -- which pre-date Evangelion 2 -- further substantiated this idea.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

Marfil
Embryo
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Marfil » Fri May 08, 2020 11:14 am

View Original PostReichu#894044 wrote:Use this archived version. The scripts are under the "裏?”.


Thank you so much for finding the correct link. I did took a good look at the website before posting, but it did not occur to me to click on “裏?”.

I can confirm that the leaked script with the alternative endings was indeed uploaded to Age.ne.jp, and that the oldest accessible version on Wayback Machine is from January, 2000. That is not to say that it was not uploaded earlier, just that that is the oldest version backed up by the Wayback Machine. The entries on Kiratei’s blog are from 1999, but I would assume he copied the content from Age.ne.jp.

View Original PostReichu#894044 wrote:I would assume that the "original source" is completely gone from the Internet and has been for some time. The Internet Archive isn't searchable, and the Internet is also much, MUCH bigger than search engines would lead one to believe. If something were genuinely leaked, it would probably pass between hands in relative secrecy, only getting posted anywhere once there was no way to trace it back to its source.


In addition to what Reichu says, I would assume as well that the original leak was already in digital form. The story surrounding Olivier at points hinted to the script existing in physical form, but now I believe it was a miss-understanding or embellishment of the story.

That would also solve the problem of why the script has not been auctioned or similar.

View Original PostReichu#894044 wrote:The number of hits in Japanese or otherwise is fairly non-indicative. Evangelion is a major commercial property, and a cultural phenomenon. How many of those hits are actually geek-tier? How many of them pertain to just the original production, and not the latest thing (the new movies)? (In my limited attempts to search for actually relevant "extreme geek" sites in Japanese, I've been pretty disappointed by how little has survived to the present day.) Consider that even with something as new and hot as the 3+1 Avant1, I was (last time I tried, anyway) only able to find a single site that transcribed the dialogue.


I agree in spirit with what you say. Although I would not say the number of hits in Japanese is “fairly non-indicative.” Precisely, my point is that nothing extra can’t be inferred, except that they are that, somewhat “indicative.” I would choose another word, but I agree with the substance of what you say.

I did not want to come across as a groveller in my previous post (I have been a long time lurker of the forum, but rarely post) so I omitted another extra theory of why the leaked scripts only remain in Evageeks: Perhaps nobody cares as much about Evangelion as Evageeks does, including even the Japanese fandom. I mean it seriously and as compliment.

View Original PostReichu#894044 wrote:The script stuff gets confusing. Let me try to explain again. Here's what's available to us; the numbers go from "earlier" (less revised) to "newer" (more revised).

1. Evangelion Original I~III: These contain the earliest available versions of the scripts. The leaked drafts follow this format. At this stage, nothing has been done yet to formally prepare the script for filming.
2. Storyboards: Dialogue and descriptions are significantly revised from (1). The script has been split up into cut numbers and storyboarded. Sound effects and technical notes are present. Many differences from the finalized episode may be present.
3. DVD/BD Script: Resemble the storyboards, but have the images and technical notes omitted. Dialogue, cut breakdowns, etc., generally matches the final episode.


Thanks for the explanation. I understand perfectly now and it all makes sense.

View Original PostReichu#894044 wrote:The "Anno-isms" may be all in my head, since I'm not exactly well-read in Japanese scripts outside of Eva... It's mostly just down to a gut feeling, developed over many years of looking at Eva scripts, studying Eva in general, getting a feel for Anno's personality via interviews, and so on. Nothing authoritative, but... There's certainly enough non-Anno Eva stuff floating around to know what "Eva without Anno" feels like.


I still have not made up my mind about the Rebuild, but I am glad that if someone is doing a retake of Evangelion it is Anno. I am a 100% sure that Evangelion is Anno’s mind and soul. I would not even entertain the idea of someone else trying to do Evangelion, even if it had access to all the intellectual property, animators, voices, and collaborators. I am sure the result would not be Evangelion.

It baffles me when “fans” choose a franchise and dismiss its creator. I will not give names, but it is more than one franchise.

View Original PostReichu#894044 wrote:As for possible references in the new movies: The scripts do describe Eva-01 on the Moon with the Spear of Longinus at the end. In the new movies, Mark.06 is on the Moon with the Spear of Cassius. (This isn't as random as it looks, either, since Mark.06 is identified with Lilith rather strongly. Eva-01 was a Lilith clone in NGE, but this no longer seems true in the new movies; Mark.06 might have taken over that role, or the closest thing to that role.) I'll have to keep an eye open for possible others.


Evangelion 3.0 was a very altered, but nonetheless retake of Episode 24. I would assume that the last Rebuild movie has to be in some way a retake of Episode 25 and 26, even if it diverges more than Evangelion 3.0 did.

The whole Rebuild has made several nods to not only End of Evangelion, but much more specifically to One More Final, such as the LCL/red sea, Asuka’s eyepatch, and all that you mention about the Moon. Perhaps the last movie will do some more nods to End of Evangelion, including things from the leaked script.

View Original PostReichu#894044 wrote:Getting in contact with holdouts of the original NGE Japanese fandom would probably be the easiest way to clear up a lot of the mystery around these "alleged EoE drafts". That's far beyond my skill level, though.


The best chance would be the owner of Age.ne.jp, Taro Toukai (the nickname of Taro Igarashi). There are some email addresses on Age.ne.jp from the other people who worked on the transcript (I am not assuming it is the same as the leaked script, I just mean that they were also active in the Evangelion fandom at that time). Perhaps one of them knows. I will think about sending one of them an email. Have to think carefully what to say.

View Original PostReichu#894044 wrote:Re: "Second-Generation Seed", that refers to the idea of humanity being a self-perpetuating cycle. So, for example:


Thanks for the explanation. I understand what you mean, indeed it would be a second-generation seed in that way.

In the past I have been very reticent to the First Ancestral Race, but it is undeniable that is something that Anno was thinking for Evangelion since the beginning, part of his internal lore of the world, not just something they slapped for a video game later. Anno also clearly likes science fiction for all the references he makes on Evangelion, I wonder why did he not choose to go that route in End of Evangelion — and fear that he will go that route for the Rebuild, as I believe it was a good type of restraint to not go for a science fiction ending.

SPOILER: Show
As you say, Reichu, the Eva-01 left floating at the End of Evangelion could complete the cycle of populating worlds as a seed. It is not a stretch at all, the anime and movies state clearly that lilim come from Lilith. End of Evangelion is also full of references to the three of life. It is clear by the end of End of Evangelion that Eva 01 could create life, and populate other worlds like Lilith or Adam. If just anyone were to mention it explicitly.

Yet, while Eva-01 is referred as an “ark” in End of Evangelion (the movie, not the leaked scripts), it is only meant as a medium to “navigate” through the third Impact. Yui’s last words to Shinji aren’t those of an explorer in an interstellar ark who is about to go into adventures, but rather of a Pharaoh trapped in an interstellar sarcophagus. She says it will be lonely, instead of hinting at the possibility of going to other worlds and creating new life and civilizations. Yui seems resigned to exist forever without having anyone to talk with, and says that it is a price worthwhile for conserving the “human heart”. It seems as she has given up on humans and life as we know it existing forever, choosing instead to preserve at least one human heart (herself) for as long as the universe exists. Populating other words would not bring humans/lilims back, and would only create the problem anew of how to preserve one of their hearts forever. Yui seems to understand better the implications of being trapped in an Evangelion for eternity better than Gendo did. What Yui has done is better understood as a sacrifice.

All that you say is true, Reichu, all the elements for Eva-01 being a true ark and a seed are there. Yet, I wonder why Anno did not go that route. It is not just that he did not went that way explicitly and only implied it, but rather that he explicitly denied it with Yui’s words. Anno could have chosen to give a more optimistic outlook to Yui in her ending speech, people on Earth are assured a second chance if they decide to take it and come back, yet it is not implied that anything but loneliness awaits for Yui. It is also implied that she will not be able to visit Shinji back, not “because reasons” that the plot requires to avoid Shinji having a best friend that is also god-like robot watching over him in life, but because it is physically impossible for Yui to get back to Shinji. She is literally left floating in space. She cannot go back to Earth, stay there until Shinji gets old or at least until he is an adult, and then go back into space. Remember, Yui is a mother that has only been able to be with his son for three years or so when Shinji was a baby, and has only seen him from inside the Eva 01 for a year, and unlike Gendo, she genuinely loves Shinji the most and above all. If Yui could do as she wishes she would stay in Earth, or at least promise to come back later before leaving definitely to see Shinji again, regardless of how awkward would it be that she is a good-like robot. The implicit explanation is that she cannot do it. In End of Evangelion the S2 engine only gives immortality to an Evangelion, not the powers displayed on the Rebuild which would make it feasible to will a rocket or wings into existence and have them generate from the Evangelion’s flesh or surroundings.

The sadness of Yui’s ‘forever alone future’ is there to balance what would otherwise be a happy ending that is a complete reset of the world without consequences, much like the manga or the alternative world depicted in episode 26. That Yui has a bleak future ahead is next to how it is also rather explicitly stated that some beloved characters are definitely gone, like Rei and Kaworu, in comparison to others characters that are only a maybe, like Misato. Yui, Rei, Kaworu, they all are part of the consequences, part of the sacrifice. Much more so than the physical destruction of the world we see in One More Final.

I, personally, feel that populating Evangelion’s world with alien races and alien seeds sort of diminishes the importance of what happened on Earth. But that is only my feeling. Anno was clearly interested in the alien seeds, and I doubt anyone convinced him of not going that route using this argument. Perhaps he thought that End of Evangelion had already too much that needed to be wrapped up, and that there would be always a next chance to explore those ideas.
Last edited by Marfil on Fri May 08, 2020 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 24044
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri May 08, 2020 11:48 am

Marfil: A quick note on the "fate of Yui" thing. The dialogue between Yui and Fuyutsuki at the end is almost verbatim the same in the leaked script as it is in the final movie! I don't think the purpose of the "Ark" was actually changed -- Anno was just much more elusive about everything. This conversation recently came up over in this thread; I've linked specifically to a post about Yui's farewell. Skim through the thread if you have a chance, specifically everything involving Eva-01's ultimate role; let me know what you think. I don't want to throw your thread here any more off topic than I already have.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

Marfil
Embryo
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Marfil » Fri May 08, 2020 11:51 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Marfil: A quick note on the "fate of Yui" thing. The dialogue between Yui and Fuyutsuki at the end is almost verbatim the same in the leaked script as it is in the final movie! I don't think the purpose of the "Ark" was actually changed -- Anno was just much more elusive about everything. This conversation recently came up over in this thread; I've linked specifically to a post about Yui's farewell. Skim through the thread if you have a chance, specifically everything involving Eva-01's ultimate role; let me know what you think. I don't want to throw your thread here any more off topic than I already have.


Roger that. I will stay on topic too. If I have questions about the fate of Yui I will post them in that thread. (I will definitely read it, in case I do not post it does not mean that I was not interested, just that I did not have questions about it).

Shun
Adam
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 83
Joined: Jul 27, 2018
Location: Italy
Gender: Male

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shun » Sun May 10, 2020 9:32 am

Some years ago I had read the scripts on that Japanese site, and in addition to the line about ark and the "new lands" which provides a hint about Yui's plan, which is probably inspired by Nadia (the Atlanteans leave their planet aboard ark, the blue water is a container of souls) and in hindsight it is in agreement with the video game NGE2 in which FAR leaves their planet aboard seeds of life, there is another interesting line, this:

ミ サ ト (冷 た く, 無表情 に): 「そ う, こ の た め に エ ヴ ァ シ リ ー ズ が 体 13, 必要 だ っ た の ね」

13 Eva is mentioned in episode 22, and the line that I have paste was present in the movie trailer, but was later replaced with the Second Impact line. But I don't remember what the trailer is, it should be Death & Rebirth.

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1151095451

ミ サ ト 「こ の た め に エ ヴ ァ が 13 体 必要 だ っ た の ね」

The same line is used in Sadamoto's manga, Stage 76.

Also in my opinion it is a real script because it is in agreement with the film EoE and it seems close to Anno's fascinations, but I wouldn't know more than that. Sorry it's not a big help, but it's the best I can do.

Yui's loneliness is definitely one of the saddest things in EoE, at least Sadamoto gave her Gendo ... :sniffle:
What is essential is invisible to the eye.

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 22956
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: 私の中いる自分の心
Gender: Female

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue May 12, 2020 7:11 pm

I thought it's currently defunct, but I swear EML (Eva Mailing List) had either Olivier Hagué or "Wigsy" back in the day post about these alternate endings, with their sources. Now, obviously this makes it hard verify if the Mailing List is currently inaccessible, but...Hopefully this offers some leads with the discussion :)
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

Marfil
Embryo
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Marfil » Fri May 15, 2020 5:57 am

View Original PostShun wrote:There is another interesting line, this:

ミ サ ト (冷 た く, 無表情 に): 「そ う, こ の た め に エ ヴ ァ シ リ ー ズ が 体 13, 必要 だ っ た の ね」

13 Eva is mentioned in episode 22, and the line that I have paste was present in the movie trailer, but was later replaced with the Second Impact line. But I don't remember what the trailer is, it should be Death & Rebirth.

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1151095451

ミ サ ト 「こ の た め に エ ヴ ァ が 13 体 必要 だ っ た の ね」

The same line is used in Sadamoto's manga, Stage 76.


That line is interesting.

Reading the Japanese discussion about it, I can see why they changed it, though. It directs too much attention to a detail that at that moment in the movie it is not important, and can even be distracting given everything else that is happening on screen. Seele needed to make 13 Evangelions in practice, but that is just the development path that took them there and how things happened. For what I understand, the important number was 10 sefirot (9 mass production Evas, AKA Eva series + 1 ark, whether Eva 01 or Lilith), the additional units leading to that would not affect anything. To reminiscence that there would had been 13 Evangelions in total is a nice comment to make the audience think and talk about on a trailer, but on the middle of the movie it would have been very distracting.

By the way. I am still counting. But would it not had be 14 Evangelions if you count unit 00 as well? (Units 00, 01, 02, 03, 04 + 9 Eva mass production).
Or does Unit 00 not count?
Or would it mean, up to “Evangelion unit 13”, if they were to keep numbering using the same scheme up to then, in other words counting the first (prototype) unit as 00 instead of 01? (That being said, I believe the Japanese for that would be 13号機, not 13体, so I do not think this was the intended meaning).

Edited:
I just checked the draft script for End of Evangelion episode 25', there it says 「エヴァシリーズが13体」 (13 Eva Series units)
The trailer for Death & Rebirth says the same with a slight difference「エヴァが13体」 (13 Evangelion* units. *Any kind of Evangelion, not specified they are Eva Series.)
On the other hand, episode 22 from NGE, the scene between Aoba and Misato says 「エヴァ13号機まで」(Up to Evangelion* Unit-13. *Any kind of Evangelion, not specified they are Eva Series). So 14 units counting Evangelion unit-00.
Just to be sure, I checked End of Evangelion the movie, and in the scene where Misato is hacking Magi, the line about the number of Evangelions was removed/changed to the line about the truth of the Second Impact.

I would assume the Eva count on the draft script and trailer for Death & Rebirth are mistaken, and perhaps the reason why the line was removed from the final movie. The coincidence in the number 13 makes me believe it was a counting mistake, but it is also possible that Anno thought at some point about increasing the total Eva Series count to 13 units (so 18 units total including the Non Series Eva units 00 - 04), but then later reverted back to only 9 units (14 units total including Non Series Eva units, with the latest unit in total named Unit-13). Unless there is something I am missing about Japanese?

This is actually pretty good, Shun! It is not perfect evidence, but it is exactly the kind of circumstantial evidence I was looking for. Something unique from the draft script referred in other part of Evangelion that we know is official (I assume the trailer is official but have not checked it out).

A nice detail from the draft script. It mentions that Seele's attack to Magi starts exactly at 6am (モニター内の時計が6:00AMになる。 と、同時にモニターが消え、赤の警告画面に変わる。). The draft script and the actual movie show that it is 5:59am in Misato’s computer, then the monitor changes to 6:00AM, and then immediately Misato cannot access Magi because it is being hacked by Seele.

Misato first thinks that she has been discovered and her access to Magi has been cut. Then she takes a few seconds and realizes it is something bigger, someone else is also hacking Magi. That’s all in the same scene. In the next scene it is explained that it is a coordinated hack/DoS attack by other 5 Magis in different countries.

In retrospect, the change in Misato’s computer clock from 5:59am to 6am is there to signal that the hack was coordinated to start exactly at 6am. Misato does not realize that since she is not looking at the clock but reading the actual info on the screen, she only thinks it is suspicious the loss of access and jumps to the conclusion of a hack because she knows that eventually Seele is going to attack Nerv one way or the other. But from the audience point of view it is much clear the connection between the clock in the computer changing to 6 o’clock and the access to Magi being lost. It is a computer-like type of precision, like a clock alarm.

You do not need the script to realize that. Someone watching the movie several times would notice the clock and the dialogue in the later scene emphasizing that it is a coordinated attack (I hadn’t noticed the clock change until now, or forgo about it, despite watching End of Evangelion many times). But the fact that is in the script also gives credibility to what Reichu said of there being small details that only make sense from the point of view of a director and production material that is not final yet. There are no visual details about animation, etc. that would be available on a storyboard or from someone trying to fake a script based on watching the movie. The important thing for a director is that the clock changes to 6:00 am. Which would be consistent with a draft script.

Are there perhaps other lines from the draft script that did not make it to the final movie, but that are also included in the Death & Rebirth trailer linked above?

View Original PostShun wrote:Yui's loneliness is definitely one of the saddest things in EoE

Agreed.

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I thought it's currently defunct, but I swear EML (Eva Mailing List) had either Olivier Hagué or "Wigsy" back in the day post about these alternate endings, with their sources. Now, obviously this makes it hard verify if the Mailing List is currently inaccessible, but...Hopefully this offers some leads with the discussion :)


Thanks for the information. I’m seriously thinking about mailing people from that era.

UrsusArctos
The Beginning and the End
The Beginning and the End
User avatar
Posts: 8753
Joined: Jun 28, 2007
Location: Visiting forum at random

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby UrsusArctos » Sat May 16, 2020 9:32 am

View Original PostMarfil wrote:By the way. I am still counting. But would it not had be 14 Evangelions if you count unit 00 as well? (Units 00, 01, 02, 03, 04 + 9 Eva mass production).


The only explanations I can come up with is that they're not counting Eva-00 because they consider it a prototype, or not counting Eva-01 because it is a substitute/alter ego for Lilith (Lilith no bunshin, whatever that means in context) while they consider Evangelions as those solely created from Adam.
[Became a moderator on December 31st, 2007. Became an administrator on September 7th, 2013.]
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

FelipeFritschF
Shamshel
Shamshel
Age: 23
Posts: 253
Joined: Sep 12, 2014
Location: Brazil
Gender: Male

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FelipeFritschF » Sun May 17, 2020 7:46 pm

I should mention I wrote most of the Final Scene article and am currently remaking the Tiers of Canon one. I do greatly appreciate your input here, it's very nice to see people go out of their way to examine supplemental sources. Wish more people would do that...

It is worth mentioning that, as Reichu said, a lot of material on the Japanese Internet is gone. Funnily enough, I have actually seen Japanese fans tell me or just say somewhere that EvaGeeks is the best place they can find for resources like this because so much is essentially gone from the Japanese side of things or simply not available in one big, centralized place, which makes finding the stuff that does exist much harder. On the analytical side of things they have plenty of material, sure, but even then a lot of it dissapears over time - and obviously so do we. Some of the references to more Western works (and I'm not talking about just the Bible!) go over a lot of people's heads, whereas here it's picked up upon much easier, whereas references that would be obvious to Japanese audiences are very obscure to Western ones. Of course, Eva is still a primarily Japanese work made for Japanese audiences, but it's interesting how it can take on, shall we say, multicultural dimensions.

Also, the old Mailing List posts, mostly collected in Onegeek, are unfortunately down. I actually asked about this once, here: thread/19805/Eva-Onegeek-is-down/

But you can still find pretty much all of it under Web Archive.

kuro hazama
Embryo
Age: 28
Posts: 42
Joined: May 25, 2010
Gender: Male

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby kuro hazama » Wed May 20, 2020 8:07 am

The line about the 13 mass produced evas resurfaced in the manga, which also incorporated the ancestral race stuff, so either this was just Sadamoto putting some stuff he thougt would be interesting that was decided to be undisclosed on the old days, or Anno told him(If anything like that ever happenned) to put that secret backstory inormation in.
The point is that in the (almost absolute canon) backstory seele needed 13 mass produced evas for reasons never clarified or even really apparent in the movie itself, but aside from Kiel´s remark that they have less units than expected, other references to this concept(pretty much Misato´s line that was in the trailer) were omitted. Either way, the line was no doubt a real deleted line and thus completely realistic for ir to appear in an earlier draft.

I think the only thing that tried to explain this was eva2, kind of.

In my ignorance, I kind of suspect that Sadaomto had someone providing input on how to handle the SF side of the story in the manga since he stated he really didnt care about it or understood it that much, when ironically the manga streamlines some obscureness by actively incorporating some of the explanations that surfaced in the following years after the series ended.
the eva team

gendo team brains/pimpface
ritsuko team cyborg
Misato team berserker
aoba team undead
hyuga team psycho
ibuki psycho stalker

fuyu team badass

felineki
Clockiel
Clockiel
User avatar
Posts: 406
Joined: Jul 29, 2006

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby felineki » Sun May 24, 2020 6:00 am

There are several lines from the screenplay in question that appear the Death and Rebirth trailer as flashing text:
(切り口はきれいではなく、無理やり引きちぎったように)
ただ、激昂するシンジ。
つまり、その世界の『終わり』である。
まるで、木が大地に根を降ろしているように。
LCL に落下する、ゼーレの仮面。
ただし、顔に眼は生まれていない。
長い影を落とし、地表に刺さっている、ロンギヌスの槍。
周囲が全て、光に変わり吹き飛ばされていく。

Most of these are describing things that are actually in the finished movie, though a few are things that differ. But they're all verbatim.

Although interestingly, some of the flashing text in the trailer is not in either the leaked script or the finished movie, such as Hyuga and Maya commenting on Eva-01's wings of light, or Shinji lamenting to Rei that Kaworu, Misato and Asuka have all died. They might have been from an even earlier draft.

Marfil
Embryo
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Marfil » Fri May 29, 2020 12:55 pm

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:I should mention I wrote most of the Final Scene article and am currently remaking the Tiers of Canon one. I do greatly appreciate your input here, it's very nice to see people go out of their way to examine supplemental sources. Wish more people would do that.


FelipeFritschF, thanks for your hard work on the article about the Final Scene. I recall reading the article many years ago and it left an impression.

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:It is worth mentioning that, as Reichu said, a lot of material on the Japanese Internet is gone. Funnily enough, I have actually seen Japanese fans tell me or just say somewhere that EvaGeeks is the best place they can find for resources like this because so much is essentially gone from the Japanese side of things or simply not available in one big, centralized place, which makes finding the stuff that does exist much harder.


I cannot emphasize how almost completely lost is the draft script from the Japanese web. I only found one website, linking to EvaGeeks, both quoting the text and at least giving some explanation about it. The rest of results on the Japanese web are usually just someone quoting a fragment in a forum, without much context. Leaving the draft script aside, it is also notorious the lack of a central forum, wiki, or equivalent about Evangelion’s analysis in the Japanese web.

View Original Postkuro hazama wrote:The line about the 13 mass produced evas resurfaced in the manga, which also incorporated the ancestral race stuff, so either this was just Sadamoto putting some stuff he thougt would be interesting that was decided to be undisclosed on the old days, or Anno told him(If anything like that ever happenned) to put that secret backstory inormation in.


Are there also 13 mass produced eva in the manga? (I read the manga, but never analyzed or cared much for it to remember all the differences). I thought the manga reference to the number 13 was in relation to the angels (apostles in Japanese), which makes more sense for that number: 12 apostles + Jesus.

Leaving the manga aside. I wonder if the movie originally planned for 13 mass produced eva, what was the symbolism that Anno intended to use? It must have been some judeo-christian symbol (the apostles + Jesus only makes sense with the angels, is there another reference to the number 13 in the Bible?).
If the symbolism was different, I doubt however that the dynamic of the third impact or the movie would have changed much. In the End of Evangelion the eva series produce a Kabbalah with the 10 sefirots, but they might as well have made a pentagram or any other form and it would have not changed much the dynamic of the Third Impact.

View Original Postfelineki wrote:There are several lines from the screenplay in question that appear the Death and Rebirth trailer as flashing text:
(切り口はきれいではなく、無理やり引きちぎったように)
ただ、激昂するシンジ。
つまり、その世界の『終わり』である。
まるで、木が大地に根を降ろしているように。
LCL に落下する、ゼーレの仮面。
ただし、顔に眼は生まれていない。
長い影を落とし、地表に刺さっている、ロンギヌスの槍。
周囲が全て、光に変わり吹き飛ばされていく。

Most of these are describing things that are actually in the finished movie, though a few are things that differ. But they're all verbatim.

Although interestingly, some of the flashing text in the trailer is not in either the leaked script or the finished movie, such as Hyuga and Maya commenting on Eva-01's wings of light, or Shinji lamenting to Rei that Kaworu, Misato and Asuka have all died. They might have been from an even earlier draft.


Felineki, thanks for the additional lines.

I am more than satisfied with the references to the draft script in the trailer of Death and Rebirth. I think it makes for solid enough evidence of the authenticity of the draft script.

Even thought I would like even more direct evidence, at least for me this settles the matter quite definitely.

I have read a considerable part of the translations and original script more than once in the past, but now I feel more confident about reading it all and appreciating the additional insights from it.

Berserkelion
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 22
Posts: 11
Joined: Feb 01, 2015
Location: Salerno, Italy
Gender: Male

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Berserkelion » Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:45 am

I just bought the original VHS edition of End of Eva. In the box, there was the Storyboard collection book. Neither Last A nor Last B is there.
"In order to make myself recognized by the Other, I must risk my own life. To risk one's life, in fact, is to reveal oneself as not-bound to the objective form or to any determined existence — as not-bound to life" (Jean-Paul Sartre, Being and Nothingness)
"Despair is a Sickness in the Spirit, in the Self, and So It May Assume a Triple Form: in Despair at Not Being Conscious of Having a Self (Despair Improperly So Called); in Despair at Not Willing to Be Oneself; in Despair at Willing to Be Oneself" (Kierkegaard, The Sickness Unto Death)
"As one's ignorance disappears when he gains knowledge, and as darkness disappears when light appears, so also incompleteness is eliminated by completeness" (The Gospel of Truth)

FelipeFritschF
Shamshel
Shamshel
Age: 23
Posts: 253
Joined: Sep 12, 2014
Location: Brazil
Gender: Male

Re: Source and authenticity of End of Evangelion’s alternative endings

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FelipeFritschF » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:34 pm

View Original PostBerserkelion wrote:I just bought the original VHS edition of End of Eva. In the box, there was the Storyboard collection book. Neither Last A nor Last B is there.


Nobody would find them there. This is effectively a leak, first encountered in a Japanese website. It's an internal production document, not a released supplemental material. This whole thread is discussing whether it's real and trustworthy and I think we have more than enough evidence to conclude it is.

Also, how come nobody mentioned that Asuka's final line in Last A, as recorded by Miyamura, is actually included as a bonus feature in the Eva Bluray box set? This line is even referenced elsewhere in interviews by Miyamura herself. Unless we are to suggest that the drafts were fabricated around this line known from these interviews? And presumably everything else mentioned in this thread? Either way, it's proof that Last A is at least partly real.


Return to “Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests