Kawoshin Symbolism

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Kawoshin Symbolism

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Postby KurisuNimii » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:50 pm

A lot of people who totally distort the relationship between Kaworu and Shinji, (being discreetly homophobic or trying to put Kaworu as a manipulator villain or Shinji as “””"emotionally dependent"”” or some other non sense thing) never stopped to analyze the symbolism and complexity that this beautiful couple has, they think people like these two together for superficial reasons, but the true is:

they are soulmates, that were not meant to be.

Lovers from different backgrounds but at the same time Star-Crossed Lovers

Star-crossed lovers

Most of you knowledgeable about loop theory and Kawoshin fans, should know that Shinji and Kaworu are part of the "Star crossed lovers" trope, which is one of the most depressing couples tropes that has

Star-crossed lovers are soulmates but unfortunate lovers, who love each other but cannot be together by external forces, something bad always happens in this trope...

and the Rebuild 3.33 poster itself proves that Kawoshin is part of that trope, because in the poster of 3.33, we have the stars “altair and vega” behind Shinji and Kaworu, but for those who don't know, the stars altair and vega are one of the most famous stories about star-crossed lovers in asia, I will talk about it now:

The tanabata legend is a tale that originated in china, it is about two people who love each other, the princess and the shepherd
The princess was the star Vega and the shepherd was the star Altair, both lived in two opposite corners of the Milky Way. Although they were many differences and light years away, the love between the two broke all these barriers

the Princess's father forbade this romance and spilled stellar water in the Milky Way. Until then, its bed had a shallow current that could be traversed on foot, but as it poured out so much stellar water, the Milky Way ended up becoming a deep and dark river.
Sad with the fate she would have to take, Orihime locks herself in her room in tears, stopping to weave the clouds for the starry sky. What would cause great problems on Earth, such as lack of rain, climate warming etc.
Fearing the worst, Rei ends up allowing her daughter to see the pastor once a year. That day would be the seventh day of the seventh month of the Lunar calendar, also known as the 7th of July, the Tanabata.

And on the day that Shinji and Kaworu went to see the stars, after playing piano ... they were seeing Altair and Vega
In the poster for 3.33, behind them was Altair and Vega
Shinji under Altair and Kaworu under Vega

Image

this 3.33 poster and this "star-crossed lovers" thing also can be seen as proof for the loop theory, how the loop can be the external force that tries to stop their love
but this is already a topic for another post


This information is not new in the kawoshin fandom, but I needed to talk about it again

Kaworu and Shinji are soulmates but unfortunate lovers, they love each other, they were made for each other, but always something bad happens, Kaworu always ends up dying for humanity... (but will it be broken in 3.0 + 1.0?)

Their love love goes beyond everything but... did you know that they were not meant to be soulmates? because ... Kaworu is an angel and Shinji a human.

~~~~~~~~~~

Lovers From Diffent Backgrounds or Opposite Attraction


Humans and Angels are enemies, they try to kill each other, these two beings try to see which of the two will really have the right to live on earth, they are two opposite beings, made to fight and hate each other.

Angels are the mortal enemies of humans, however ... the impossible happened a human fell in love with an angel

I find it so curious that in the anime, angels and humans are enemies but an angel and a human fell in love
no hate, no fear, just love
an angel with human feelings, human body
he is not like other angels or like other humans, he is special
a fragile and sensitive human who saw more humanity in an angel than many people he has ever met
this angel and this human are not enemies, they are friends, they are lovers
this angel is not an enemy, is the love of your life

I find this very curious and intelligent, it is as if destiny had contradicted everything in the world of EVA making an angel and a human being soulmates and loving each other

they are soulmates that were not meant to be, they were supposed to be enemies, to fight each other, but that didn't happen at all, this symbolism of angel and human falling in love and unfortunate lovers is so deep and beautiful

that's one of the reasons why i love Kawoshin, they are born to meet each other

Image
Kaworu, pls come back in the 3.0 + 1.0

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Re: Kawoshin Symbolism

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Postby Derantor » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:57 pm

View Original PostKurisuNimii wrote:(being discreetly homophobic or trying to put Kaworu as a manipulator villain or Shinji as “””"emotionally dependent"”” or some other non sense thing)

Oh, nice, questioning the intent of people having a certain opinion and insinuating that they must be some kind of -phobe or -ist is always the best way to have a discussion! So I stopped reading your post there. ^_^

Kaworu is apparently manipulating Shinji, but you could maybe argue that he gets manipulated himself and does it without knowing he's doing it, so I won't argue that point further. Shinji being emotionally dependent is pretty obvious, though. That's kinda one of the pillars of his whole character, so I'm not sure why you put it in scare-quotes. I mean, see how he latches onto Kaworu despite not knowing him and having absolutely no reason to trust him? (The guy can breath the apparently toxic athmosphere which is forcing Shinji to wear a protective suit, but Shinji doesn't care.)

Anyway, if you want to ship them, have fun. The only reason I am answering at all is because of the line I quoted above. If you want to be taken seriously, it would definitely help to not come off as a disgruntled fan angry at all those other people who don't like your personal favorite pairing.

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Re: Kawoshin Symbolism

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Postby KurisuNimii » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:11 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:Oh, nice, questioning the intent of people having a certain opinion and insinuating that they must be some kind of -phobe or -ist is always the best way to have a discussion! So I stopped reading your post there. ^_^

Kaworu is apparently manipulating Shinji, but











"Kaworu is apparently manipulating Shinji" I stopped reading there
Kaworu, pls come back in the 3.0 + 1.0

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Re: Kawoshin Symbolism

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Postby Blockio » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:49 pm

View Original PostKurisuNimii wrote:"Kaworu is apparently manipulating Shinji" I stopped reading there

And that's your whole fucking problem. You are so dead-set in your perfect yaoi savior ways that you refuse to consider that he is a nuanced, flawed character like LITERALLY ANYONE ELSE IN THE SHOW
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ sadly not Mari in Q (Joseki)
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
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Re: Kawoshin Symbolism

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:00 pm

I'm with OP on this one.
I don't see "evil Kaworu". It would also be less interesting to me than the story being told "at face value".
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Re: Kawoshin Symbolism

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:52 pm

kuribo-04 wrote:I'm with OP on this one.


Ditto.
"Evil Kaworu" has never held any ground in my opinion for a lot of reasons but a key one, and this is just me speaking, but from a purely emotional and storytelling standpoint, Kaworu sneakily manipulating Shinji in some grand chess game for larger plot purposes is so boring. It's much more effective, interesting, worthwhile and plain engaging if it's a genuine connection.

Now Kaworu absolutely was created for malicious intents by SEELE and while I personally found him in NGE to be too much of an enigma for me to appreciate as a character (I loved his effect and what he meant to Shinji, but as an individual character I still feel he appears and dies off too suddenly to be an intersting character, obviously I'm in the minority since he's been like Top 3 on Fan polls since forever) I really feel the extra time afforded in 3.0 has certainly sold me more on their union.

Ultimately the key appeal and power of Kaworu's presence in the story is he's the one person who reaches out to Shinji at a time when he needs a person most. In NGE that came about because every character was taken out of Shinji's one episode at a time and in Rebuild it's because he wakes up in a hellish world he knows nothing about. In both cases he's alone and someone offers a helping hand. That's powerful emotional stuff.

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:50 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Ditto.
"Evil Kaworu" has never held any ground in my opinion for a lot of reasons but a key one, and this is just me speaking, but from a purely emotional and storytelling standpoint, Kaworu sneakily manipulating Shinji in some grand chess game for larger plot purposes is so boring. It's much more effective, interesting, worthwhile and plain engaging if it's a genuine connection.

Now Kaworu absolutely was created for malicious intents by SEELE and while I personally found him in NGE to be too much of an enigma for me to appreciate as a character (I loved his effect and what he meant to Shinji, but as an individual character I still feel he appears and dies off too suddenly to be an intersting character, obviously I'm in the minority since he's been like Top 3 on Fan polls since forever) I really feel the extra time afforded in 3.0 has certainly sold me more on their union.

Ultimately the key appeal and power of Kaworu's presence in the story is he's the one person who reaches out to Shinji at a time when he needs a person most. In NGE that came about because every character was taken out of Shinji's one episode at a time and in Rebuild it's because he wakes up in a hellish world he knows nothing about. In both cases he's alone and someone offers a helping hand. That's powerful emotional stuff.


My opinion on Qaworu has softened a lot over the years with the realization that Seele was plotting to kill him in Q. I feel that his affection for Shinji is genuine as well as what he intended to do. It's his methods of getting there that cast him in a dubious light. He does tell Shinji some things that appear to be quite contradictory to the facts at hand, and omits some key things like his partnership with Seele (and the entire existence of Seele for that matter) and that he stopped what happened at the end of 2.0 before it inflicted the damage that he saw.

Those two things need to be addressed and I trust Shin Eva will do so since Shinji still doesn't know wtf Seele is. For the rest of it, I increasingly feel that most of the misleading Kaworu did was a result of his own ignorance and naivety than any ill intent. It seems like he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. In particular he really seems to be in the dark about Seele's plans for Human Instrumentality and the True Evangelion which makes me wonder if his plan to restore the world is what they told him they were planning to do all long. :???:

The NGE and NTE versions of Kaworu are practically polar opposites, and it's one of the reasons I've warmed up to NTE Kaworu but not so much the NGE Kaworu. Whatever else he did or how he planned to get there, Qaworu didn't intend to cause Shinji pain or to become his enemy. He wanted them to be on the same side so he could bring Shinji happiness and redemption (and maybe some redemption for himself?). NGE Kaworu struggles with a lot of issues Qaworu doesn't, like the burden of being both Tabris and Adam and the conflict over which species will ultimately be the inheritors of the Earth. Indeed, if we take Qaworu's words purely at face value, he has no desire or intention to wipe out the Lilin. He wants to restore the Earth for them and give them back a sense of hope. Him being well intentioned with some questionable methods makes him...just like Shinji. ^_^

That's the core of my beef with NGE Kaworu. He befriends Shinji knowing that one of them is going to have to kill the other and seal the extinction of their species and doesn't even do anything to prepare Shinji for that inevitable conflict. And episode 24 treats it like there is no alternative. I don't know if Anno intended for it to be viewed that way and EoE tries to mitigate the fallout of 24 a bit by revealing that Kaworu is actually still kicking around and by having him acts as Shinji's spiritual guide, but that aspect of their relationship is something I personally can't get past. Realizing Qaworu wasn't doing this made it a lot easier to like him. :kaworusparkle:
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:12 am

Maybe Kaworu is really aware that his in a movie lol, and knows giving Shinji exposition on all things Seele might have been boring. Because IMO one of the more boring and unnatural scenes in the entire NGE manga is the one in which Kaji explains all these things to Shinji. It is really obvious that it's being told to us, and Shinji doesn't seem like he can do much with that info.

So maybe Kaworu really just told Shinji what he needed to know to get the gist of it. Add to this that there might be even more things happening that we don't see or don't understand. Maybe Shin reveals Kaworu was hiding things that would have been even more painful for Shinji.

And I agree with Gendo's Papa that NGE Kaworu comes across as a little more mysterious, even a little creepy maybe, while also being charming. I think Anno has even commented on how the character just came out like that.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:00 am

Okay okay okay okay.

Let me explain where I'm coming from with this whole "Kaworu is evil/manipulative" subject. Maybe after that we can untangle some weeds as to what Kaworu actually might be doing here in a way that makes sense to me. (I tend to think as I type, so this is a necessary process for my own discovery.)

Evidences that Kaworu is misinforming Shinji:

1. What Kaworu presents to Shinji doesn't quite line up with what we saw at the end of Eva Ha. Kaworu seems to have stopped N3I prior to stuff getting as bad as we saw they had gotten in Eva Q. For exam please, mass-produced Evas weren't littering the landscape, and the moon wasn't dangerously close to Earth's surface. Also, Anno did cut to Lilith during N3I, and she was still intact on the cross. Clearly, we're missing some stuff between the last time Shinji was involved in an Impact, and what had happened to cause the mess we see in Eva Q.

2. A bit of non-diegetic evidences here, but Sagisu's score in the scene where Kaworu exposition dumps on Shinji does have some lyrics backed by ominous-sounding music chanting "Learn to trust if you must..." It doesn't appear to be a good sign when it comes to the validity of Kaworu's claims.

However, this doesn't necessarily means that Kaworu is intentionally lying. He could simply be misinformed himself.

Evidences that Kaworu might be intentionally lying to Shinji:

1. Kaworu was there at the time N3I happened. He even helped shaped those events by stopping Unit 01 with some crazy spear of some kind. (I forget which one, really...) Given the information we have so far (which, admittedly, isn't much), it would seem rather suspicious for Kaworu to stop N3I from continuing at the hands of Shinji, only to tell him that everything was totally Shinji's fault in Eva Q. Unless Gendo tried to resume N3I by pulling the spear back out of Unit 01, it's unlikely Shinji was even unconsciously used to continue N3I any further than what we had seen occur in Eva Ha.

2. (This is tentative, as I don't remember if any of this was actually addressed in Eva Q.) I'm pretty sure the spear Kaworu used to pierce Unit 01 and halt N3I in Eva Ha is still stuck inside Unit 01 in the beginning of Eva Q. I mean, look at how weirdly shaped Unit 01's containment unit is in Eva Q's opening. It's cross-shaped to account for Unit 01's outstretched arms, as well as having an extra set of cross arms song the "Z" axis of the containment unit. This suggests the presence of that spear Kaworu used to stop N3I from going any further. (Also, I think that's the same spear Asuka used to help start the AAA Wunder after they retrieved Unit 01 and extracted Shinji. They probably got that spear from Unit 01.) This suggests that the spear Kaworu used to stop N3I hadn't been removed since he used it to stop N3I. If that spear hadn't been removed since Kaworu stopped N3I, then Shinji couldn't have even been unconsciously involved with any aspect of N3I after Kaworu himself halted Shinji's involvement at the end of Eva Ha. And if Shinji had nothing to do with any of the aspects of N3I we didn't see before Eva Q, then it seems rather dubious that Kaworu would outright tell Shinji that it was all his fault, especially when Kaworu was there the whole time, giving a hand in shaping these events himself. (EDIT: Please read TheFriskyIan's post regarding this point.)

In light of all of this context, it almost sounds like Kaowru (or somebody) did a bunch of things after Eva Ha, then blamed Shinji for it in Eva Q.

Rationalizing these Evidences:

Now, it could be that I'm conflating several different events with N3I that haven't been confirmed to have been a part of N3I. Sure, Shinji could have been responsible for the Moon coming that close to Earth (I would expect that to have transpired somewhat slowly after it's initiation anyway. Moon travel doesn't sound like a thing that happens over night, ya know?) But it could be that whatever happened to Lilith and Earth becoming all red had nothing to do with N3I. That actually looks like something else entirely, and might even be tied to the creation of the Mass Produced Evas we see in the background of Eva Q. And, as far as I remember, Kaowru doesn't outright say that Shinji was responsible for those Mass Produced Evas and the red planet and stuff, which is one of the key differences between how we see N3I portrayed in Eva Ha and the aftermath we see in Eva Q. The movie just keeps cutting to them during Kaowru's explanation of Shinji's "sins," which is kinda confusing. Maybe even if Kaworu didn't tell Shinji that these extra parts of the aftermath weren't his fault, Shinji (and, by extension, audiences) definitely seems to be assuming that they are a result of his N3I initiation. Either way, Kaworu did come from a "bad family" (Seele), as it were, so we don't know how helpful Kaworu ultimately is to a non-Seele conclusion. (that "Learn to trust if you must" scores is still rather ominous...) But, hey, Rei II seems to have broken away from the "Plan," Misato and Wille seem to have broken away from the "Plan," and, if we're being fair to everybody in Eva, Gendo also seems to be breaking away from Seele's Plan. Kaworu might also be capable of breaking away from Seele's Plan in the future. As far as I know, NTE is the Eva version of Anno's "Do what you want" message from Shin Godzilla, with 3 different factions (Wille, Nerv, and Rei II/Kaworu?) all trying to do what they want respective to Seele's initial plan.

In conclusion, this is clearly a bit more confusing than I had initially thought it to be (and confusion seems to be a running theme in Eva Q anyway), so maybe during my next rewatch I should go over some of these aspects of the films' narrative again and see what's what.

Honestly, we might not get a solid answer one way or the other until Shin Eva's release. But it's still fun to pick through what we have so far and speculate what the answers might be.

SPOILER: Show
Also, if NTE ends with Shinji having Asuka, Rei II, and Kaowru hanging off his arms, I'm gonna lose my fucking mind! (But, like, in a good way.)
Last edited by FreakyFilmFan4ever on Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kawoshin Symbolism

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:34 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:2. (This is tentative, as I don't remember if any of this was actually addressed in Eva Q.) I'm pretty sure the spear Kaworu used to pierce Unit 01 and halt N3I in Eva Ha is still stuck inside Unit 01 in the beginning of Eva Q. I mean, look at how weirdly shaped Unit 01's containment unit is in Eva Q's opening. It's cross-shaped to account for Unit 01's outstretched arms, as well as having an extra set of cross arms song the "Z" axis of the containment unit. This suggests the presence of that spear Kaworu used to stop N3I from going any further. (Also, I think that's the same spear Asuka used to help start the AAA Wunder after they retrieved Unit 01 and extracted Shinji. They probably got that spear from Unit 01.)

Keep in mind half of that Z axis was another Mark 04 hiding in the back, but the front end Asuka lands on with Unit 02 did have those weird symbols on them. The spear we see her use later looks similar to the one Kaworu had with the Mark 06 but isn't quite the same, as it had a flame system in the middle to help heat it up to penetrate metal whereas the spear that hit Unit 01 had a green gem instead.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:36 am

^ Thanks for clarifying! I wonder what happened with the spear that was stuck in Eva Unit 01, then. If Wille doesn't have it, then I wonder if it was pulled before Unit 01 was somehow launched into space. (Maybe Shinji and Unit 01 were still used for N3I business after Eva Ha had ended???)
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Re: Kawoshin Symbolism

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:41 am

Quick comment to address doubts:
The spear Kaworu uses is the spear of Cassius. This spear cannot be in the containment unit at the beginning of Q, since it is supposed to be piercing Lilith together with the spear of Longinus.

The barrier protecting Lilith's chamber hadn't been opened in 14 years. However, when Kaworu and Shinji arrive, it's two Longinus spears piercing Lilith. Kaworu's (weird) conclusion: he suggests Cassius might have transformed into a Longinus spear as well.

Source: You don't wanna know how often I've seen this film.

I would say your summary is on point though regarding what Kaworu should know.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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