Wasn't Anno openly asking someone "Which girl should Shinji end up with" for 3.0+1.0?

That kind of dampens the idea that he had a pro-Asuka ending from the start. Or Pro anyone really.

Alaska Slim wrote:Wasn't Anno openly asking someone "Which girl should Shinji end up with" for 3.0+1.0?

That kind of dampens the idea that he had a pro-Asuka ending from the start. Or Pro anyone really.

Did he really ask that? If he did, then you're pretty much asking for the ultimate monkey's paw from Anno by allowing the fans to tell him which girl Shinji should end up with, because I can guarantee he will do the exact opposite or an option that nobody picked so as to troll the audience as much as possible. I know I probably would.

Alaska Slim wrote:Wasn't Anno openly asking someone "Which girl should Shinji end up with" for 3.0+1.0?

Was he? These sorts of claims need a source to avoid the kinds of fan conspiracy theories that threads like this emerge to debunk.

Alaska Slim wrote:Wasn't Anno openly asking someone "Which girl should Shinji end up with" for 3.0+1.0?

No, what happened is that Anno asked Megumi Ogata which ending Shinji should have. Someone mistranslated "ending" as "girl". I corrected that misconception in this post: https://forum.evageeks.org/post/888286/EVANGELION3010-AVANT-1-from-beginning-to-1040-Version-0706-discussion-and-prediction-thread/#888286

Alaska Slim wrote:Wasn't Anno openly asking someone "Which girl should Shinji end up with" for 3.0+1.0?

I want to clarify this, as this "fake news" actually spread because of me either here or on Discord I think.

Last year I went to Japan Expo in Paris for the AVANT1 event featuring Yoko Takahashi and Megumi Ogata (Shinji's VA). The event featured a concert, a interview to Ogata and the screening of AVANT1 at the end.
While I studied some french for 3 years when I was very young, I have now forgot almost everything. My girlfriend, who was there with me, is however a C1-level french speaker and she helped me understanding what people on stage were saying.
My memory is now a bit hazy, but from what I remember what actually Ogata said on stage in Japanese was that one day Anno asked her how the series (or Shinji in particular) should conclude. The translator on stage translated to roughly "how should Shinji end". The mic quality wasn't great and my girlfriend confused "fin" (end/ending) with "fille" (girl) and translated it to me as "which girls should Shinji end with". For added context, she basically has no idea of what Ogata was saying most of the time not having watched Eva.
Later in the day I posted online my experience and I think I mentioned that specific mistranslation. I was later corrected on it, but I suppose that's how this myth started.

This has nothing to do with the thread but I feel responsible for creating this confusion that persisted this long.

Literary Eagle wrote:No, what happened is that Anno asked Megumi Ogata which ending Shinji should have. Someone mistranslated "ending" as "girl". I corrected that misconception in this post: https://forum.evageeks.org/post/888286/EVANGELION3010-AVANT-1-from-beginning-to-1040-Version-0706-discussion-and-prediction-thread/#888286

Yep. It was an unfortunate chinese whispers game that went from me casually sharing something on Discord to the wild internet.

Oh dear, one of our very own spreading rumors?

What I find funny about the topic in conversation is the idea that non canon materials like popularity polls would be taken seriously by Anno in any way. If anything I feel like he'd use them to troll the target audience.

Reichu wrote:Was he? These sorts of claims need a source to avoid the kinds of fan conspiracy theories that threads like this emerge to debunk.

You are absolutely right, a 1,000 apologies Reichu-san.

My language was also vague, I did not mean to imply that Anno had taken a poll but had rather been asking someone within the Eva staff.

On that, Ms. Ogata sounds right to me so I'm certain Literary Eagle and I are speaking to the same event.

I don't get this.
In the rebuild series, Rei was more likeable than ever.
She got some fresh character building, some great relationship building and she seemed so much more human than in NGE.
I don't feel like Asuka advanced as much as Rei in this version (which I'm fine with, I don't have a bias).
Just seems weird that anyone thinks these movies favoured Asuka over Rei.

^ Anno “killed” Reifans fave waifu at the end of Eva 2.22, and didn’t bring her back for Q, so I guess they think that means NTE is anti-Rei. And ever since the Great Waifu Wars started, if something is “anti-Rei,” then it must be “Pro-Asuka.” (Mari’s existence be damned.)

Losing that version of Rei at the end of 2.22 wasn't the worst thing. I loved the connection she was making with Shinji and they ended up gaining such a connection that he risked his life for her, which was a hell of a moment and in 3.33 we were so fond of how Rei had grown that we felt Shinji's angst that she was gone when he was awoken. All he wanted to do was find her and after everything - I get it.
I think that played out beautifully.
The new version of Rei even had a bit of character building like she was starting over. Whenever someone would make comments about her not being the 'real' Rei, she questioned it, looking sad and concerned, she began to question who and what she was. There's still more to her as a person than in the original series.
I think that this series was very favourable to Rei and I love all the work that's been put into her this time around.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:And ever since the Great Waifu Wars started, if something is “anti-Rei,” then it must be “Pro-Asuka.” (Mari’s existence be damned.)

I see this same logic show up all the time in the shipping wars where Asushin shippers try to claim that it means their ship is the one endorsed by Anno. "If Rei is supposed to represent escapism, then that must mean that Asuka represents something good, right?" Has anyone ever considered the possibly that Asuka might also represent something negative, just like Rei does? While Rei is supposed to represent escapist relationships, Asuka could represent the exact opposite, toxic relationships. Shinji is someone who is so desperate for love and affection that he would settle for being with anyone, even someone like Asuka who treats him badly and emotionally abuses him. It's like Asuka said in End of Evangelion, he doesn't care who it's with. People who are lonely and desperate for affection are the ones who are most likely to end up in toxic and abusive relationships.

Those who say that Asuka is the "answer" because Rei represents escapism I feel are missing half the message. I think the full message Anno was trying to convey was probably more along the lines of: "Don't settle for escapism, but don't be so desperate for affection that you end up with someone who won't treat you right, because you deserve better than that." I think the answer to whether the Rebuilds are pro-Asuka or pro-Rei is that they're neither. They're both unhealthy, and I think part of the reason for Mari's existence might be to help highlight that. By introducing this seemingly normal girl who is somewhere in the middle between Rei and Asuka, it creates a contrast, thereby making Asuka's unhealthy traits more noticeable.

Mari certainly is nothing like Rei or Asuka so I don't know about your last point there.

Anyway we know the new best girl is Sakura.

ShinjiStranglesAsuka wrote:Mari certainly is nothing like Rei or Asuka so I don't know about your last point there.

That is the point. Mari is a representation of a normal person that's in the middle, while Rei and Asuka represent two unhealthy extremes. Someone like Mari being present in the story helps to highlight how different Rei and Asuka are, and that they are both unhealthy. I might have made the wording a little confusing in my previous post.

The original post was a tad bit long but I agree that overall the theory does not hold. Rei is more open in expressing her emotions, especially when Rei goes out of her way to help Shinji with his dad or stops Asuka from slapping her in the elevator. Asuka's brashness was considerably toned down and she remains aloof towards the others. I thought the movies had a focus on the Shinji and Rei trying to 'save' each other, either literally or metaphorically, but in the anime series Asuka stands out as a central foil to Shinji and having a significant role in EoE. However, we are left with an interesting similarity in the ending of 3.33 and EoE, where Shinji and Asuka are left in a barren wasteland (with Rei at this point a clone or a ghost of some sort) and both having to start a new chapter in the story. It seems inevitable that Rei is sidelined to the metaphysical realm.

With regards to Mari, she seems like an interesting addition to the Eva pilots, somehow being immune to mental problems or social angst.

The idea that Anno "hates Rei" (& the general portrayal as this cynical index finger wagging person) was always based on quotes taken out of context by ppl who probably don't read many think pieces or journals by artists; Artists kind of talk like that and it's common to feel ambiguity towards one's work (particularly if you picture a creator with Shinji-esque levels of self doubt);
At most he describes having a sort of disconnect towards her which is sort of a big part of her demeanor etc.

He has also said that her story is about communication, that she practically writes herself and that she comes from the "most unconscious, most core" part of him.

I mean, when the last movie came out, ppl were saying the exact opposite. Obviously they couldn't both get exactly 50/50 screentime in each movie.
I don't thing anything in 2.0 went that far beyond the original series except that it was more planned out & structured and not split out in tidbits over many episodes (the rooftop exchange with Touji basically IS the pokapoka scene except for phrasing)

Many ppl were panning the cooking subplot as cutesy but here's a character who's been disconnected from pleasure & her physicality & starts looking into this as more than just life support but as pleasurable & a social activity. - in a sense it's a "life experience" thing like Shinji smelling the earth in the Gardening scene.

It's not like Asuka is a) the image of stability & having your shoot together, b) realistic (super badass prodigy foreign fanservice?) c) doesn't have wish fulfillment aspects (the idea that this chick who says she hates you & tells you to get lost secretly wants you)... but i mean, no one would watch a TV show about completely unnappealing boring characters, and conversely, in the end they're both in the EoE train scene montage about how the people you care about may have difficult to deal with sides to them or parts you don't really understand. Her strength is a facade and underneath she's got it no more together than Shinji except that she's meaner.
One could likewise arguing that being attracted to the fake loud mean "weakling bashing" character is indicative of some uniquely American pathology;
(Though that would almost certainly be an oversimplification at best )

What Q is, is a sed ending. Or sad second to last fourth; Par for the course for the franchise. A sad ending does not make all the beautiful things that came before meaningless.

Writers generally don't approach their characters as a popularity contest, but as concepts, tools or parts of their psyche. What we see in Q is fully milking the horror out of the "replaceable artificial soldier" thing as a sci fi concept- also the "uncontrollable apocalypse machine" thing - everyone in the classic series acted super terrifiedwhen EVA 01 went beserk, but it usually helped our heroes. Not so here. They lost control of the apocalypse machine.

The "so much fuss about one person" line again, is concept. World building. It shows how much Misato has changed, who always had qualms with sacrificing people; It shows that she & Asuka spent the last 14 years living in a much harder;


In a way Q is actually very validating - there's the subplot with the books (it's probably relevant to note that one of the things Anno does as writing practice for female characters is to read books written by women - he'd have some connection between interest in what someone reads & interest to understand them), that he absolutely notices the difference; ReiQ is set up as a contrast figure. There's all these sad scenes where he tries & fails to strike up the usual conversation, like how he would normally ask Rei for advice to understand the situation - unlike what some detractors would have us believe, he doesn't care about the clone thing (Rei Q is still that), he doesn't want her to like read the books because he orders it or anything, he wants his friend in a world where he's found himself awfully short of those - As last time she's the last support to drop away, the second-to-last straw

And as previous posters pointed out, Shinji kind of needs to be in the "Belly of the whale" stage for Kaworu to come in - and then he dies too.


Like obviously this is a sad story that will make you feel negative feelings; Maybe it's that this certain type of personality overrepresented on reddit & imageboards & the like who*'d be drawn to a character with a hard time having their complex inner life show on the surface which also tends to have a tendency to rationalize their feelings when upset - (I'm trying to hard keep the personality test nerdery under wraps here) - "I have a negative feeling, therefore it must be a conspiracy" when really it's just a feeling.

Melkor wrote:I think part of the reason for Mari's existence might be to help highlight that. By introducing this seemingly normal girl who is somewhere in the middle between Rei and Asuka

I wouldn't call Mari "a normal girl" - Yes, she is noble and heroic, also chill & focussedbut she's also very eccentric, has no sense of personal space, has this line about how she prefers to act on her own/ not rely on others (see the big establishing moment where she cuts the comms - "Whoever it is wants to do it alone"), and then there's how she has no settings between battle range and dissonant serenity... etc. like she would probably stand out in a normal school setting. She never entered one cause she was basically doing what she wants.

In a sense it's like how Rebuild answered the common "why didn't Shinji just try prying off Bardiel's arms" question (Bardiel promptly sprouts 2 more arms), like all these stories where one halfway together badass OC solves everything... Mari helped a lot, but she can't solve the whole plot on her own.

She's more mature in the sense that her focus is on the big picture, but she's probably someone who sort of keeps her own company so she can be as eccentric as she wants to be.

Though I guess I always tend to interpret her assuming the "strict catholic highschool" backstory from that sadamoto interview since it's the only one we've gotten.

It's impressive that they managed to get someone who contrasts with both when they were already designed to for maximum contrast; She's even a contrast to Shinji and Kaworu - like Shinji she is a natural at piloting (it's implied the EVA 05 fight was her first proper sortie) but while he worried about everything she's very go with the flow ish, and while he has no idea of the greater plan, she seems to be very much in the know. She's also a wise, well-informed person like Kaworu but talks in a very earthy simple manner while he's all about the high philosophical terms

EDIT

Look at [url="https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20234/Yuko-Miyamura-wants-to-rape-Rei-Animage-1996-Anno-x-Miyamura-discussion/"]this[/url] snippet where Anno talks about Asuka as the "masochist's option" who would probably just insult your lovemaking & speculates that Misato is "probably appealing to ppl who fancy themselves mature but are inwardly childish" which ought to put to bed any notion that any of the three is supposed to be the certified sane person's option.

I must say that I did previously have that thought... you would at least fear that Asuka would make fun of your body.
The appeal is at least to some extent what Youtube philosopher Natalie Wynn has termed "masochistic ontology" - the truth hurts sometimes, but ppl sometimes make the reverse conclusion that if something hurts then it must be true. So there's some addictive, traumatic bonding with the disser because you feel they're being truthful to you. This can be a fun, harmless fetish like dirty talk, but for ppl who already have low self-esteem any bad thing said about themselves might ring true, & this can really contribute to crab bucket mentality where hostile dysfunctional ppl just egg each other on... wether it's certain sexist subreddits or some instagrams pushing what's basically anorexia, a group of ppl who already hate themselves egging each other on to diss each other etc.
It's not a coincidence that Asuka gets cast in the role of Shinji's negative inner voice in a lot of the introspection scenes.
This isn't just true for personal relationships but also society wide, like how ppl in the USA believe that social programs that work perfectly fine everywhere else in the world are "just unrealistic" - "get off your ass you lazy loser, I'm not in need because I am a WINNER" & all that hyper competitive mentality.

Not that this is always the same/ the only phenomenon at play, for example in what I've seen of south American fandom it seems a lot of ppl just dismiss Asuka for shallow reasons cause she's "loud & bitchy" like obviously there's a whole lot more going on.

...this is the point where to avoid the appearance of unreflected finger pointing I'd say something negative about my own country but while there is much I might complain about, at least before I more or less completely moved to anglophone websites (like nearly everyone else), there wasn't really any tendency to hate either of the girls nor really a tendency to pit them against each other. Rei was a tad more popular herself, mostly cause ppl found the philophical/conceptual parts interesting, shipwise Asuka was the slightly more popular option, but even then was fairly even three part split between the girls & Kaworu and there wasn't really any bashing. I think ppl acted more serious cause it was considered a "distinguished" anime.

The few bashy ones I remember came from the Kaworu faction as an outgrowth of that phenomenon where the yaoi fanbase would sometimes bash the designated female love interests that wasn't really EVa specific and even then I only remember like 2 or 3.


I can't say that doujins featuring either girl really go how he & Miyamura speculate here tho... Maybe some, but the majority is actually concerned with getting some genuine tenderness out of them - if anything, some fanworks maybe skip right to that part because they want to get right to the erotica (or the cute fluff! - that's as much of a primal drive as fighting or sex)

I could see how this theory might work for NGE, but NTE is far too different for it to hold any water. NTE is Shinjis story and there really isn't a "best" girl or any of that stuff in the movies. The sexual tensions and romantic undertones aren't nearly as prominent here and there isn't a main Shinji + "insert character" type relationship. It's just Shinji being a socially inept introvert attempting to socialize with equally socially inept introverts in his fellow pilots. Any idea that Anno prioritized any character not named Shinji in the rebuilds is just silly.