[Split and moved from here. -Reichu]

Settie wrote:It wasn't just unit 1, he was barred from piloting anything. We got Sakura saying so, Shinji scared of the choker before Kaworu takes it off and If those instances aren't enough, the movie even gives a nice visual storytelling to drive the point home. As Shiji is about to leave with the mark9, the way Misato holds the chokers controller is exactly how you would hold a gun to someone, i don't think this was coincidental. Misato metaphorically holding a gun to his head should he pilot again. The choker was no mere symbol of distrust, it was an active threat should he pilot anything.
Now this is likely my american perspective that guides my bias but, Misato is the captain of the Wunder, if not the leader of Willie. The buck stops with her and only her. Now could her subordinates go behind her back? sure and i wouldn't blame her for that, but when it came to the Shinji situation, she was responsible for it as she was physically present.

Hopefully not dredging this up again but i wanted to give my 2c on it. It's not entirely unprecedented that Anno would do something based on the fandom. I mean isn't that one of the primary reasons EoE came about, due to TV ending backlash. Also from a non-cynical "for the moneyz" perspective, NTE was Anno making eva more easily "digestible" (if that makes sense) for the masses due to the fandoms reactions to OG NGE. Hell if you really wanted to stretch it the whole english redubbing of 3.0 was potetially due to the western fandom reaction. So Anno taking the Eva fandom reaction into account it's not that farfetched.

Settie, at this point you're reading things into the text, not extracting information out of the text. No doubt, the filmmakers use a lot of aesthetic choices and unfortunate circumstances in Eva Q to make Shinji (and the viewer) feel uncomfortable. The design of the DSS Choker trigger (or detonator, or whatever it's called) does indeed look somewhat gun-like. But, if all of the Eva pilots are wearing DSS Chokers, this isn't a feature that's exclusive to Shinji, now it is?

Again, none of this makes Misato out to be a hypocrite. She's certainly (intentionally, I think) giving off a rather cold demeanor around Shinji (and the other Eva pilots as well), and doesn't seem too warm around anyone. Whatever happened during that 14-year time skip seems to have turned a lot of people into hard-asses. Misato, Ritsuko, Asuka, and even Maya seem to come off as a lot more jaded than they do in Eva Ha. And Sakura does call out Shinji within terms of not piloting an Eva unit. (Misato, again, says nothing on the matter.) If anything, I'd expect a scene in Eva Q where Sakura has to reconcile with Shinji about the mean comments she made in Eva Q, not Misato. (Misato's got a lot of things to properly catch Shinji up on, and she might apologize for not being able to do so in Eva Q, but it's not like she has to apologize about being singling him out or anything.) There is definitely a lot at stake in Eva Q, and Shinji, being an Impact Trigger (and possibly not even the Shinji they remembered from 14 years back?), is certainly one of those high-stakes circumstances.

Does any of this make Misato out to be a hypocrite?

No.

As for fan-pandering, I think much of the point being made on this thread is simply that Anno doesn't (or has limited means in which to) care about what American fans think. While I'm sure he's hopeful that people in the US enjoy his films, his main focus is on appealing to Japanese audiences, and he seems to be doing a good job with that. So if American weebs blow up about disliking certain aspects of Eva, and Japanese fans aren't already showing similar grievances about the same aspects of his movies, then Anno is less likely to care (or even know) about those complaints and just do whatever he wants in a way he thinks will thrill Japanese audiences. You'll note that all of the fan letters Anno displayed in EoE (which, no doubt, will probably be used as evidence of fan-pandering of some sort) were all written in Japanese, by Japanese fans. Anno really doesn't think too much about what I, a snobby small indie filmmaker in North Carolina, think about his Evangelion movies.

@Freaky

It all goes back to what started this thread to begin with, if the other pilots also wear chokers and what that implies. My point was why the singling out of Shinji specifically? Chokers have one purpose only, to stop awakenings and prevent impacts, if Asuka and Mari wear one then Misato is at least willing to take the risk for the greater good. So why is Shinji told he'll do nothing and not to get into an eva? He's a pilot, they have a device designed for the worst case scenario, so why the hostility? Hence why i said if A&M are indeed wearing chokers, that would make Misato a hypocrite, she's willing to take the risk with some pilots but not the other.

If the purpose if the chokers is to prevent impacts, then that's all kind of made useless by the fact that the requirement for a pilot to be present in the Eva to initiate an impact could easily be circumvented by Seele or Gendo just equipping an Eva with a Dummy System and having it cause one that way. Mark. 06 seems to have played a huge part in initiating Third Impact, and it had a Dummy System in it (if we assume that's what Kaworu meant by it was modified to be fully autonomous).

Settie wrote:@Freaky

It all goes back to what started this thread to begin with, if the other pilots also wear chokers and what that implies. My point was why the singling out of Shinji specifically? Chokers have one purpose only, to stop awakenings and prevent impacts, if Asuka and Mari wear one then Misato is at least willing to take the risk for the greater good. So why is Shinji told he'll do nothing and not to get into an eva?

Shinji was told he couldn't pilot an Eva because

1. Eva Unit 01 could no longer sync with him,

2. Eva Unit 01 was being used as the Wunder AAA engine,

and

3. Wille didn't have another Eva Unit just laying around for him to pilot.

Melkor wrote:If the purpose if the chokers is to prevent impacts, then that's all kind of made useless by the fact that the requirement for a pilot to be present in the Eva to initiate an impact could easily be circumvented by Seele or Gendo just equipping an Eva with a Dummy System and having it cause one that way.

Given the information conveyed in the movies themselves, the Dummy System probably can't be used as an Impact Trigger.

Also, the purpose of the DSS Choker wasn't there to prevent Impacts. Ritsuko explicits states under no uncertain terms that the DSS Choker is there to prevent Awakenings, specifically pointing to the one that happened within the first 6 minutes of the movie we're discussing. (Awakenings also seems improbable when using the Dummy System. We see Eva Unit 01, Yui, straight up rejecting the Dummy System in Eva Ha.)

If you're so set on building your own narrative around Anno's work, perhaps it would be better for you to write your own wholly original work.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Shinji was told he couldn't pilot an Eva because

No, Shinji was, quite explicitely, told "From now on, you will not do anything." I'd assume that includes piloting, the only thing that actually makes him dangerous. Whether or not there actually was an Eva present for him to pilot is irrelevant - they equipped him with the choker anyways, so they thought there was a possibility that he would be put in a position where he could pilot something. If there existed no possibility that he could pilot an Eva anyway, the choker would not have been needed at all. If there exists no possibility that he can pilot right now, that possibility may still arise in the future. In either case, the line I quoted above is very hard to misinterpret. Sakura spells it out for the audience: "Whatever you do, do not pilot Eva."

Edit: Or to put it in other words: Shinji is completely irrelevant for the plot except for his ability to pilot - which entails Awakenings and Impacts. "You will not do anything" certainly won't mean "You will not walk on your own, you will not make coffee, you will not talk to people, you will not sit in your room and listen to your S-DAT."

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:that the DSS Choker is there to prevent Awakenings,

An awakened Eva is only a problem because it allows an Impact to happen. You prevent Impacts from happening by making it impossible for the necessary conditions to arise. So it is really just hairsplitting to say "It is there to prevent Awakenings/Impacts", because that is the endgoal in both cases: Don't start another Impact. Making a distinction there is like saying "No no no, the safety in a nuclear bomb is only there to prevent the fuse from exploding, not there to prevent the actual nuclear explosion."

specifically pointing to the one that happened within the first 6 minutes of the movie we're discussing.

If we are splitting hairs, a Unit "awaking", meaning, activating, is something different from a Unit having an "Awakening." Unit 01 was already in an awakened state at the end of Ha - Gendo at the end of Q says his plan is still on track, as he now has an awakened Unit under his control (No. 13). This implies that, once awoken, a Unit stays that way, or has at least an easier pathway to enter that awakened state again.

Edit two: I am also NOT objecting to the treatment of Shinji here - I do NOT want to start that discussion again.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:If you're so set on building your own narrative around Anno's work, perhaps it would be better for you to write your own wholly original work.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about my intentions. I was just making an observation. If it's a wrong observation, then simply point out the flaws with it, without the passive aggressiveness. So far it seems that every time I've asked a question in this thread, rather than answering it, everyone instead has just been dead set on twisting everything I say to make it seem like I have some sort of ulterior motive or agenda behind doing so, when I was just genuinely wondering what others thought of the question posed. The only narrative here is the one you're all trying to create about the type of fan or person you think I am.

Melkor: I agree that doing so isn't productive and things (here and in the thread this was split off) are a bit out of control. I tried to clarify the issue as best I could here. You didn't respond, but the way you talk about "you (...) all" suggests you disagree with it.

Even if you don't think you're one of the "types" I'm referring to, intentions are hard to get across much of the time. A lot of us have been trained by years upon years of fandom toxicity-induced fatigue to respond poorly to the kind of rhetoric you were using. In that sense, you were, however unintentionally, aligning yourself with a behavior and mindset many people are just sick of seeing. I can see that in some of your earlier posts, you attempted to retain clarity about your intentions, which is excellent -- but the things your replies focused on corroded a sense of good will very quickly, as I tried to indicate early in proceedings.

So far it seems that every time I've asked a question in this thread, rather than answering it, everyone instead has just been dead set on twisting everything I say to make it seem like I have some sort of ulterior motive or agenda behind doing so, when I was just genuinely wondering what others thought of the question posed.

If you've spent any time on the Internet at all, you probably know that the whole "I was just asking a question!" thing is a huge red flag. Becoming aware of these flags is important, and as obnoxious as it is that so much rhetoric has been commandeered in the name of disingenuous argumentation, there's no real getting away from the fact that the problem exists. It conditions the brains of those who have been sufficiently exposed to it, and extra steps must sometimes be taken to facilitate proper communication and prevent triggering undesired "immune responses".

Feeling misunderstood is extremely frustrating and I sympathize immensely. In the end, all anyone can really do is try to learn from experiences like this and move on to try to keep the same thing from happening again. Not saying that it will be easy, of course. The tenseness of the Internet as a whole does no favors for any of us and I don't think anybody really enjoys being so wound up. We all have to work to do better, and that includes me and everyone who participated in the circle-jerk you were subjected to as well.

Hope that makes sense.

Derantor, Misato telling Shinji "From now on, you will do nothing" was her answer to Shinji asking what role he would play in the upcoming Eva battle. This is before Ritsuko debriefed Shinji about anything, and there certainly wasn't time to discuss all that at the time Shinji initially inquired about aiding in the battle. "From now on, you will do nothing," is a great response to a 14-year-old boy who's begging to fight despite not having been debriefed on the current situation and hasn't yet been told he lacks the physical capability of syncing with the only Eva Unit he's piloted up until then.

Ritsuko's debriefing later on explains why Misato responded to Shinji's request to join the fight with "From now on you will do nothing." I mean, it's pretty tough for an Eva Pilot to do anything in battle with that 0% sync ratio, and with the Eva Unit being used as the e engine for a completely different vehicle. So, yes. Shinji was told be couldn't do anything in the battle, and then later on was told it was because of the reasons Ritsuko lays out to Shinji in the debriefing, as I mentioned in the previous post. I mean, imagine of Misato said "Sure kid, knock yourself out," Shinji enters Eva Unit 01 with a 0% sync ratio, and then just sits there and does nothing in an inactive Eva Unit while Asuka and the Wille bridge crew handle everything. It would ultimately be the same scenario as what had actually happened in Eva Q, but with extra steps. (But it would make for some comedic cut-aways of Shinji trying to "recreate the magic" the same way he did with the Eva Awakening at the end of Eva Ha, but to no avail.) Misato just cuts to the chase, and leaves it to Ritsuko to explain the technical aspects behind that decision later on the film's opening.

@FreakyFimFan4ever: I just don't agree that all the dialogue is so compartmentlized as to only carry one singular and very specific meaning. You are in essence assuming that everybody in WILLE acts as if their dialogue is a matter of formal logic, when the movie makes it abundantly clear that there is a long list of emotional conundrums which dictate their actions. Ritsuko already told him they have no need for him to pilot the Eva. He then asks "Then - what am I supposed to do to help?" (which is a statement clearly encompassing more than the current situation - he asks about his future role), to which Misato replies "From this moment on, you will do nothing." So clearly, this statement does not simply reduce to the fight at hand. It is open ended towards the future. As I said - it isnt bound to Shinji's inability to pilot (which is a dubious claim to begin with, as I have a hard time figuring out how they would test a synchrate on an unconscious person when synching involves active thought and concentration (so the exact opposite of having your brain shut off), and there is no indication which method they used to begin with - later in the movie, Shinji has no problem synching with Unit-13, and he had no problem activating Unit-01 for 12 seconds. So really, whatever Ritsuko thought she found out, it clearly isn't as clear cut as "Your synchrate is zero" - if that was the case, they would not have to worry about him piloting anything in the first place, which would make the choker pointless, so they don't even trust their own judgement on the matter 100%).

Shinji is clearly told that his role as a pilot is over - at least for the foreseeable future. Whether or not they plan to use him like Asuka and Mari later on is unclear - that they put the choker on him indicates they keep that possibility in mind, but arguing that anybody wants him to pilot or would be okay with it in the forseeable future seems impossible to me. Even if WILLE had a million Evas lying around, Shinji would NOT get to pilot any single one of them.

"FFF4ever, from now on, I will not say a single word to you" - how do you take this statement? To just mean this very thread, maybe even the very specific points we are talking about, or a general, categorical refusal to engage with you?

(Edit: Not sure why you bring up that hypothetical of Misato letting him pilot - I never said she should let him pilot. )

I truly don’t have time for this. If you wanna believe that Misato was doing something other than answering Shinji’s very specific question, well, I’m not here to kink shame your fanwank. Carry on, pal.

USER HAS BEEN WARNED FOR THIS POST.

Jesus, why do you get so aggressive? Shinji's very specific questions was what I quoted - I'm not trying to piss on your interpretation, I just see things differently, and explained why that is (namely, that things can have multiple meanings at the same time - I'm not sure what you assume I am arguing for besides that). If you disagree, fine, but please, there is no need to get so defensive. There's enough tension here as is.

Edit: That's why I asked you how you would take my statement ("From now on ...") - I just wanted to understand how you interpret these things. I wasn't trying to rile you up.

Melkor wrote:If the purpose if the chokers is to prevent impacts, then that's all kind of made useless by the fact that the requirement for a pilot to be present in the Eva to initiate an impact could easily be circumvented by Seele or Gendo just equipping an Eva with a Dummy System and having it cause one that way. Mark. 06 seems to have played a huge part in initiating Third Impact, and it had a Dummy System in it (if we assume that's what Kaworu meant by it was modified to be fully autonomous).

Kaworu surprisingly addresses this during 3.0. Seele needs the two Spears, and two souls are required to retrieve them. It's why they went through the trouble of kidnapping Shinji instead of sending Kaworu with Rei Q. Right after they have the Spears, some unknown force (quite possibly the Seele program housed in Mark.09) hijacks control of Eva 13 from Shinji and carries out Fourth Impact against his wishes.

Gendo does seem to believe that a dummy plug can be used to awaken an Eva and it was his intention to do just that when Shinji decided to leave following the Eva 03 incident. It was also discussed back in 1.0 near the end, iirc. Rei was their backup because the Dummy System wasn't ready yet. But when it was time for the rubber to meet the road, Yui wasn't having it.

NemZ wrote:[Split from Wunder thread. Struck-out text = not Germane to new thread.]

If I understand it correctly the collar was the reason for Shinji's zero synch rating, yes? So if he's on the ship without one and it is indeed powered by 01, might some wild shenanigans ensue?

I think it is pretty much accepted at this point that the reason why Shinji can’t sync with Unit-01 is that Rei, trapped inside, is preventing it, for Shinji’s sake.
Remember what she said just before thrusting the big-ass missile through Zeruel’s AT-Field, while we get a shot of the S-DAT at her hips:

Rei: I’ll make it so that Ikari-kun no longer needs to pilot the Eva!

(my own translation)

I've never thought about it in that way. That's one remarkable observation and analogy between such almost two different types of events.

I had a long response post to some of the discussion above, but deleted it when I realized the discussion is like 6 months old.

Anyway, here's something funny

https://imgur.com/yG74rsl

"I tried it because everyone said it wasn't explained enough
#Eva Q"

https://twitter.com/MemeShinonome/statu ... 78245?s=20

I love how, even though I don't understand almost any written Japanese, I still get the joke.

Shinji Ikari Expy wrote:I had a long response post to some of the discussion above, but deleted it when I realized the discussion is like 6 months old.

Anyway, here's something funny

https://imgur.com/yG74rsl

"I tried it because everyone said it wasn't explained enough
#Eva Q"

https://twitter.com/MemeShinonome/statu ... 78245?s=20

What cracks me up everytime I see people arguing that WILLE didn't explained anything to him (and by extension, us) is that they seem to conveniently forget that they were explaining everything to him, and even prepared a nice personalized briefing with slides and videos and everything, but then a slight setback forced them to stop midway:



Back to the DSS Choker itself, one thing that I always wondered, especially if it turns out that Asuka and Mari also wear one, is precisely why did they put one on him if they didn't intended to pilot ever again? And Ritsuko even explicitly mention that its function is to terminate him of he ever gets in an Eva and awake it, she also add that it's a symbol of their "mistrust on him"... but their mistrust of what exactly? Did they imagined that he would turn into Solid Snake and sneak into 02 or 08's cage to get inside and awake it or what? Or did they had EVA-07 lying in some base and they planned to train him and ultimately make him its pilot and DSS Choker was to get him used to it?

For the old timers, that was this question that started both theories that losing his humanity to the Eva might had given him superhuman capacities (especially after Asuka's megaton punch against the security glass) and that this Shinji is not the first thing to had crawled out of EVA-01 (two others in fact, hence BM-03), and that those were much less amiable than Shinji.

I hope that Shin will clarify this point.

I myself have always thought that Wille does not know all that much about what exactly could start an Impact and how, so Shinji is given a choker as a sort of insurance, in case he does end up being a potential Impact trigger still.

ElMariachi wrote:For the old timers, that was this question that started both theories that losing his humanity to the Eva might had given him superhuman capacities (especially after Asuka's megaton punch against the security glass) and that this Shinji is not the first thing to had crawled out of EVA-01 (two others in fact, hence BM-03), and that those were much less amiable than Shinji.

That's an interesting idea, but when Shinji asks if they found Ayanami in the entry plug it appears that the only other thing that materialized was that crazy SDAT player. And if two monstrosities had emerged from inside before Shinji, I think *someone* would've mentioned it in 3.0.

UrsusArctos wrote:That's an interesting idea, but when Shinji asks if they found Ayanami in the entry plug it appears that the only other thing that materialized was that crazy SDAT player. And if two monstrosities had emerged from inside before Shinji, I think *someone* would've mentioned it in 3.0.

The theory was that those hypothetical BM-01 and 02 spawned soon after N3I, if NERV tried to retrieve Shinji like they did in NGE, which could had played a part in why EVA-01 was ultimately entombed in orbit. IIRC, it's implied in Q that WILLE didn't attempted to extract him from EVA-01 (they would had mentioned it) but that he was spontaneously recreated by 01 itself when they got it back from space.