Handling of DSS Choker Reveal(s) [split]

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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby Settie » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:11 pm

@Freaky

Umm the whole reason Shinji was told not to pilot and the choker placed on him as a contigency in case he did, was because of the risk of an awakening and an impact. That kinda goes out the window and does make Misato a hypocrite if she was constantly sorting 2 pilots that could cause the same scenario a choker is meant to stop.

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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby Melkor » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:17 pm

If the goal is to not spoil the fans with instant gratification by giving them all the answers they want before the next film comes out, isn't that basically what they did by revealing the chokers in artwork from outside the film? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose if they just tell them anyway through some other means? If it's supposed to be a big secret, then it kind of ruins the surprise, don't you think? Which is why I ask, if Anno is willing to just casually reveal this information outside of the film like it's no big deal, then what was stopping if from just including it in the film if it was just going to be revealed anyway long before 3.0+1.0 through outside sources?

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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:31 pm

You are comparing acts of publicity that only a small minority will ever see, one of which could be blown off as "unused concept art" and the other of which was released years and years after the release of Q (and is difficult to notice, and on account of being a loose sketch could STILL be blown off), to altering the emotional arc of the movies themselves -- the things that will be remembered, that will last, that will get watched by people decades down the road who will have no idea what the publicity was like and have no reason to care -- in order to satisfy needy and entitled fans who think they can tell the story better than the person who came up with the story in the first place. This is disingenuous to the extreme. You can do better.

Beyond that, you are not paying attention to the actual content of what people are saying, and are inviting an endless cycle of others repeating the same things to you until you finally do acknowledge them. So have fun with that, I guess.
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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:50 pm

Melkor wrote:If the goal is to not spoil the fans with instant gratification by giving them all the answers they want before the next film comes out, isn't that basically what they did by revealing the chokers in artwork from outside the film?


Well the artwork of Asuka was out there in the world for like well over a week before a fan on a forum dedicated to nerds who obsess over this series said "Hey, is that a choker Asuka's wearing?". So it's not like they blatantly threw it out there and said LOOK AT THIS.

Frankly this is just empty complaining at this point. Your upset they didn't show a close up of Asuka'a choker in 3.0 and that's a perfectly valid opinion to share but that has little to do with this reveal because the story probably had a reason to withhold this reveal and should be paid off in the final film. Maybe it won't and then that's the start of a whole new discussion. But right now talks of "they're spoiling the movie etc etc etc" seems counterintuitive. Especially when all the credit in the world has to be given to the Khara team for so successfully (and at times frustratingly) being the best studio out there at keeping secrets. I don't like the analogy but if Evangelion is the Star Wars of the Japanese film industry Khara has always done an incredible job keeping the films plot points, character arches and overall story under lock and key. In 2012, 3.0 hit theaters without anyone knowing of the 14 year time which was the core component and drive of the film and at this point literally all we know of Thrice Upon A Time is there's a big opening action scene with Mari and Unit 08 in Paris that we saw last year, there's going to be a new Evangelion in Mark 10, they've salvaged Unit 02, there's a Final Impact of some sort and .... uh... um... Rei did pick up that SDAT player at the end of 3.0 because Shinji has it. That's it. It's really impressive they've kept everything secret considering it was the most anticipated film of the year in Japan.

AND OF COURSE IT NEEDS TO BE SAID, up until just a few months ago at this point in time Thrice Upon A Time would have been in theaters for about six weeks now. That release date was probably set in stone by Khara, Toho and Toei well over a year ago and had things gone as planned this forum would be having vastly different conversations about the movie with a few people here having had the pleasure of seeing it - like myself probably because I had some epic summer travel plans set including a trip to Japan before it all cancelled due to Covid - or at the very least there would be either a camrip or several leaked scenes online and a very detailed breakdown of the story beat by beat. The team is having to rebuild their marketing strategy since the film likely ain't coming out this until either the end of this year OR next summer and they have to plan for that. Showing a few certain pieces of artwork aren't really spoiling things.

Honestly I don't see how this became a such a big discussion. The other pilots wearing chokers is a nice detail to learn that makes logical sense considering what has happened in the story up to that point, will probably play into what Shinji learns in the next film about how Misato doesn't hate him - and what the audience will experience learning through his eyes - helps keeps anticipation fresh and is a reveal that again is handled pretty sneakily since the only people who have noticed it were a bunch of DIEHARD GEEKS ON AN EVANGELION FORUM WHO HAVE BEEN EXTENSIVELY TALKING ABOUT THIS FILM FOR YEARS.

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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby Melkor » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:29 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:I don't like the analogy but if Evangelion is the Star Wars of the Japanese film industry Khara has always done an incredible job keeping the films plot points, character arches and overall story under lock and key.


It's interesting that you mention that, because Star Wars is actually the perfect analogy in this situation. Shifting topics to something else, I've been thinking for a while now how 3.0 and the Last Jedi's situations are remarkably similar, especially in how they were received by their respective fandoms. 3.0 is basically to the Eva fandom what the Last Jedi was to the Star Wars fandom. What do they share in common? With both movies, the director wanted to try something different and subvert our expectations by going in a different direction. Both movies greatly divided and polarized their respective fandoms due to some of the story decisions made. Some absolutely loved 3.0 and Last Jedi and the new direction they took, while others absolutely hated them and what they did with the old characters. Some are excited to see where the story would go next, while others lost all interest and no longer care about seeing what happens next.

All this talk about how 3.0+1.0 might involve some sort of time loop has me worried. If Anno does do a time loop, part of me is afraid that it's because he caved into the fans that didn't like 3.0. 3.0 had some pretty permanent changes that would be really hard to undo, like the 14 year time skip for example, so the only conceivable way to reverse those changes would be with something like a time loop. If that does happen, then we might end up having a similar situation to the Rise of Skywalker as well, where most of the final movie is spent undoing what the previous movie did in order to try to win back the fans. Would Anno be the type to cave into fan pressure like that? Is the story even 100% under his control, or do khara and Toho have some corporate influnce over it as well? Like what if they made him reverse certain plot points from 3.0 in the hopes of winning back the fans that were lost with 3.0 in order to ensure that they would make the most money possible, similar to how Lucasfilm told J.J Abrams to make changes to the Rise of Skywalker?

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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:49 am

I used to be puzzled that Kaworu said the choker was made for him; but it makes sense if Wille had all their pilots wear one, and had at least one ready in the cupboard in case they were able to recruit Kaworu (or a Rei for that matter). When Shinji - another pilot - returned to them unexpectedly they used the choker they had to hand - it wasn't made for him (they didn't have time for that).
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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:52 am

View Original PostSettie wrote:@Freaky

Umm the whole reason Shinji was told not to pilot and the choker placed on him as a contigency in case he did, was because of the risk of an awakening and an impact. That kinda goes out the window and does make Misato a hypocrite if she was constantly sorting 2 pilots that could cause the same scenario a choker is meant to stop.

The reason Shinji is barred piloting Unit 01 isn't because of Impact issues; Shinji can't pilot Unit 01 because it's being used as the Wunder AAA's engine. Shinji can't pilot a vehicle that's entirely being used as an engine for a completely different vehicle. I don't know why Unit 01 specifically has to be used as the engine (the films that preceded Eva Q seem to suggest that something's significantly different about Unit 01 when compared to other Eva Units...), but that's the reason why Shinji can't pilot it. If you go back and rewatch the movie, you'll note that Ritsuko first states that Unit 01 is being used as the Wunder AAA's engine, and then as a completely separate thought says the Choker represents their mistrust in him. These two thoughts are presented as inherently being mutually exclusive to one another within the film itself. Their mistrust in Shinji isn't represented in barring him from piloting anything, but is explicitly stated by Ritsuko herself that it is represented solely in the usage of the Choker itself. Misato says nothing on the issue. (Also, it's pretty silly to call Misato a hypocrite for things that Ritsuko told Shinji.)

As for Asuka and Mari piloting their respective Eva Units, well, those Units aren't being used as Wunder AAA engines, so they're free to do whatever is necessary. Also, based on Misato's actions throughout the film, she seems to believe that Eva piloting is a necessary risk, and mitigates that risk with DSS Chokers that she makes all of the other pilots wear. Again, the mistrust of the pilots isn't represented in the Evas themselves or the piloting thereof, but is solely represented by the Choker that all the pilots must wear, as was clearly stated by Ritsuko herself in her debriefing of Shinji. If we are to believe everything that Ritsuko says, the risk seems to be seen as coming from the weapon's handler, and not from the weapon itself, so there are very strict and very real restraints placed on the pilots, who are the weapons' handlers, in order to mitigate that risk. After all, it's shown throughout the film series (and the franchise as a whole) that the Evangelion Units can be used for good and for ill. It's in the the handler's use of the Evangelion Units that determines if the Eva Units will be used constructively or destructively, so it makes sense to mitigate the pilots' usage of the Eva Units, and not try to mitigate the presence of the Eva Units. Especially since in the newer film series, unlike the original TV series, the Eva Units aren't shown to be operational or activated without some sort of pilot in the unit itself, whether it be a real pilot or a dummy pilot.

(Note the absence of any evidence of Unit 01 awakening before Shinji entered the Unit in the new film series when compared to the original TV series. This suggests that the DSS Choker logic was planned by the filmmakers from the very start of the new series way back in 2007, as it would not have worked in there was evidence of the Units moving free of any pilot as they did in the original TV series.)

In the climax of the film, we see that this logic actually works in this exact way. At some point in the film the Choker when from Shinji to Kaworu, and they both simultaneously piloted an Eva Unit that needed two pilots in order to properly function. When one of the pilots, Kaworu, was "deactivated" by the DSS Choker, the Eva Unit stopped functioning all together, and Misato and her crew could start mitigating another Impact. To argue against anything that happened to Shinji is to argue against the entire logic upon which the film is built; logic that actually hold up astoundingly well to scrutiny when closely examined despite how few evidences are presented in the film itself.

Now, could Ritsuko be lying to Misato and Shinji when she says all of this stuff? Could she be secretly working for Nerv as a double agent? Has she become Kaji's darker professional doppelgänger? Well, even if she is working as a double agent for Nerv, I doubt she's lying about how and why the technology she and her crew developed actually works. She states that it works a certain way for very specific reasons, and we see that the technology works exactly as stated for the reasons that she specified. Everything checks out here.
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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:24 am

Melkor wrote:It's interesting that you mention that, because Star Wars is actually the perfect analogy in this situation. Long rambling worry about Hideaki Anno pulling a JJ Abrams.


Hideaki Anno ain’t JJ Abrams. One understands story structure, character motivation, makes strong decisions as an artist and sticks with those decisions. The other has the villain reveal he’s Khan even though the heroes have no clue what the fuck that means. When given the keys to do whatever he wanted with Godzilla Anno chose to make a political satire.

Nerds always do this. They treat all art and artists the same. What happened in one scenario for one production has to be the case in the other. And if 3.0 “lost fans” it’s a pretty impressive that it do and was the most financially successful film in the series to date and choices made in the film led to more fan art and pages dedicated to Asuka now more than ever before.

There are too many “what if” logic jumps in your ramble to deal with.

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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:13 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:And if 3.0 “lost fans” it’s a pretty impressive that it do and was the most financially successful film in the series to date

To be fair, a lot of those theater ticket sales could be chalked up to A. hype train left behind by 2.0 & B. IIRC people were going back in and paying to watch it again because they didn't understand what they had watched the first time.
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Postby chee » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:20 am

View Original PostReichu wrote: Can the Eva fandom please get away from this bad "Anno and friends actually care about my baka gaijin opinion so much they will bend over backward to acknowledge it every chance they get, especially if it makes the movies shittier" meme?


HIDEAKI ANNO PERSONALLY HACKED THE FOUR CHANNEL TO FIND MY IP ADDRESS AND SAID "THIS WAIFU PILLOW-FUCKER IN BRANSON, MISSOURI MUST PAY" AS SADAMOTO SIMPERINGLY LIMPED TO ANNO'S THRONE OF BONE, BLOOD AND FROZEN FAN TEARS WITH A STEAMING PLATE OF TOTINOS, CLAD IN NOUGHT BUT RAGS

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Postby ShinjiStranglesAsuka » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:40 am

Melkor really insinuating that Anno is a hack who panders to fans? :|

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:51 am

For as much fan backlash as Anno gets (from his non-Japanese fans, anyway), you'd think you wouldn't see so much people online insinuating that he panders to them. :bigeyes: I mean, do you remember the sheer volume of English-speaking anime nerds that took to YouTube with their Eva Q takedown videos back in 2013? If Anno is pandering to fans, then he's utterly failing and instead ended up telling his own unique story.

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Postby chee » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:54 am

The way parts of the fandom react sometimes kinda makes me wish that Anno were as much of a petty troll as he's sometimes made out to be. I know I've said this ad infinitum on here but god damn there are some incel freaks who take their identification with Shinji so far as to just willfully ignore the whole damn point of the franchise (kinda ironic given how their behavior kinda validates the point Anno and Co. (TM) were trying to make to begin with)

Like yes, continue to bitch about how a cartoon's rhetorical harshness towards people who shut themselves off from the world is unfair while you spend your life spamming Joker Pepes doing the Fortnite dance on fucking 69chan screaming "BASED" 1,000 times a day before you do your nightly ritual of reenacting the hospital scene with your Sakura body pillow

that is an incredibly normal and healthy way to relate to art, no problems here very cool and well-adjusted
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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:56 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The reason Shinji is barred piloting Unit 01 isn't because of Impact issues; Shinji can't pilot Unit 01 because it's being used as the Wunder AAA's engine. Shinji can't pilot a vehicle that's entirely being used as an engine for a completely different vehicle. I don't know why Unit 01 specifically has to be used as the engine (the films that preceded Eva Q seem to suggest that something's significantly different about Unit 01 when compared to other Eva Units...), but that's the reason why Shinji can't pilot it. If you go back and rewatch the movie, you'll note that Ritsuko first states that Unit 01 is being used as the Wunder AAA's engine, and then as a completely separate thought says the Choker represents their mistrust in him. These two thoughts are presented as inherently being mutually exclusive to one another within the film itself. Their mistrust in Shinji isn't represented in barring him from piloting anything, but is explicitly stated by Ritsuko herself that it is represented solely in the usage of the Choker itself. Misato says nothing on the issue. (Also, it's pretty silly to call Misato a hypocrite for things that Ritsuko told Shinji.)


Shinji couldn't pilot Eva-01 even she weren't being used as Wunder's engine. Wille ran a synchronization test with him while he was unconscious and the results came back 0.0%. Eva-01 won't activate for him anymore period, but because of the awakening during Operation US they had to account for the possibility that he might pilot another Eva.
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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:12 am

^ Dang, that's right, I forgot about that. It's amazing how many layers of story Anno put there to logistically separate Misato from being seen a someone who would't let Shinji do things. Like, all of the pieces are already there to justify Wille's actions in the beginning of Eva Q, and yet the fans still point out Misato as the meanie despite both Kaworu (and Gendo) actually exploiting and lying to Shinji in order to get everything out of him that was needed to fulfill some devious goal.

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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:19 am

chee wrote:The way parts of the fandom react sometimes kinda makes me wish that Anno were as much of a petty troll as he's sometimes made out to be.


The Galaxy Brain take that Hideaki Anno went through the very difficult process of creating his own studio removed from Gainax, hired and pays dozens if not hundreds of artists he respects to spend countless hours carefully and delicately animating the world he and his team came up with and that he himself goes into the studio to work an 8 to 10 or even 12 hour day 5 to 6 times a week for years at a time not because he cares about the films he's making but just because it's all an elaborate & somehow hilarious scheme to "troll Hentai Harold the Angry Anime Youtuber from Gary, Indiana" always felt a little farfetched to me.

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Postby chee » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:34 am

View Original PostMelkor wrote:How do we know this isn't just them backtracking and adding in the choker after the fact because enough people complained that Asuka didn't have one in 3.0? If Asuka truly was wearing one in 3.0, I feel like we would have at least seen it glowing through her suit during the events of 4th Impact. Not exploded like Kaworu's did, but maybe entered a pre-reactivation stage where those floaty things appeared


I mean, why? With all the information we're given as an audience, there's not much of a reason to assume she was doing anything to make it go off.

Either way, no matter what they do with the chokers to try to show us that Shinji wasn't the only one who had to wear one, it's probably going to feel like too little too late to a lot of people, to especially after 8 years of fans raging over it.


Again, why? Given the creative team's track record, I really don't see why they would feel that much pressure to kowtow to angry otaku, let alone random people who live across the Pacific Ocean where their franchise has a cult following at best. Like, the whole ocean, the whole thing.

This is something that should have been shown in 3.0. It would have been so easy to just have a scene where we get a shot that shows Asuka wearing one, that way we as the audience would know, but Shinji wouldn't, making for some dramatic irony. The fact that they didn't even do that leads me to believe that they just didn't think of it, and only decided to give Asuka one now after realizing what a mistake it was to not do so in 3.0.


You can criticize or laud 3.0's "we're mostly in Shinji's headspace" approach from a structural standpoint all you like, but taking that as a given, why would it be relevant in the slightest? Shinji doesn't know about it, for all he knows she could be a Terminator wearing an Asuka suit. It's his story primarily. The movie makes a similar move as to the final chunk of the series, in which we're given the perspective of a manipulated pawn in a massive conspiracy that is so unfathomably huge in nature that there's no possible way the character whose perspective the story adopts could even begin to access any meaningful knowledge of it.

I know this is a cliche of a franchise comparison at this point, but really the best way to think about it would be as akin to something like Metal Gear Solid 2. Raiden, like Shinji, is a plaything of the setting's powers-that-be who starts off with the illusion of agency, getting to act like some big-dick I'm-a-big-boy-now power fantasy, only for it to rapidly go off the rails as the reality of the situation slaps him in the face. By the end, things have escalated so far out of his control as he is caught in wheels-within-wheels-within-wheels of different overlapping agendas pushing things to their logical endpoint. Bit by bit, his slow erosion of agency or even any kind of certainty is broken down, to the point where the fiction itself begins to break down and reconstitute itself in a manner that reframes the narrative focus of everything that's come before. In both cases, it was a pulpy sci-fi potboiler, now it's a meditation on more abstract themes: in MGS2 it's a comment on the nature of power and social control in an era where information overload and growing technological autonomy has paradoxically rendered the world both blindingly overexposed and impossibly opaque, in NGE it's about self-acceptance, communication, and how covering for a deficit in both of these things by overidentifying with interpersonal and social expectations will severely fuck you up (low-key especially in regards to gender roles, booooy howdy could you write a whole dissertation on the amount of times Shinji gets told "be a man" or when the adult cast talks about how much being a woman fucking sucks in the show's social environment). In the latter's case, it comes served with a side of realizing that part of growing up is coming to terms with the limits of your agency and your alienation from a world that is far bigger and more complex than you will ever truly be able to fathom. 3.0 is playing the same game. Whether it's as successful in doing so is a different matter altogether, but that's the gist of what's happening. So if we, the audience, are deliberately being placed in that kind of limited perspective out of basic thematic necessity, why would we be told that?
Last edited by chee on Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:42 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Shinji couldn't pilot Eva-01 even she weren't being used as Wunder's engine. Wille ran a synchronization test with him while he was unconscious and the results came back 0.0%. Eva-01 won't activate for him anymore period, but because of the awakening during Operation US they had to account for the possibility that he might pilot another Eva.

That could very well be the case only because of the situation in Unit 01's core. If Rei II (or Yui) were removed, his sync rate might tell a different story.
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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:07 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:That could very well be the case only because of the situation in Unit 01's core. If Rei II (or Yui) were removed, his sync rate might tell a different story.

I'm not sure how this is relevant. Are you suggesting that Wille had control over this part of the situation? I wouldn't be too sure about that......

We see an actual on-screen attempt to extract a soul from a core at the end of Eva 2.0, being conducted by an awakened Eva. This gives even her trouble.

Image

Eva-01 is initially unable to make Rei's soul budge. The most that happens is that distorted "quantum echoes" (for lack of a better term) start to materialize from the core, FoI-style. This isn't the desired outcome, and so... she steps efforts up.

Image

Leading to...

Image

...and everything else.

(Kudos to BlueBasilisk for making this connection between the Gates opening and Eva-01's ability to access the core's interior.)
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Re: DSS Choker Reveal [split]

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Postby chee » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:19 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:troll Hentai Harold the Angry Anime Youtuber from Gary, Indiana


I dislike the fact that this is probably an actual youtube channel, one that probably apes the style of Channel Awesome 10 years too late and has thumbnails like "SJWs TRIGGERED by BIBLE BLACK!?!??!" with an image of a smug anime girl laughing at a soyfacing wojack.

FreakyFilmFan4Ever wrote:Like, all of the pieces are already there to justify Wille's actions in the beginning of Eva Q, and yet the fans still point out Misato as the meanie despite both Kaworu (and Gendo) actually exploiting and lying to Shinji in order to get everything out of him that was needed to fulfill some devious goal.


This, seriously. The whole point of the opening act is that these people's lives no longer revolve around him. The world has changed so drastically that he's no longer a Special Boy with a Special Robot who gets Special Validation for doing The Special Thing. And because he's a scared, traumatized child who does not have the coping resources to deal with it, he gleefully leaps right back into Gendo Ikari's Happy Fun Conspiracy Hole without even knowing it, where he gets a shiny new eva that looks just like his old one but even more epic and metal and with two extra arms for more stabby power with a magical sparkly bishounen who openly drools over everything he does, but of course, Shinji being the psychologically cratered child of a 100% total bastard, finds that it's not enough and decides he needs validation from the people who used to give it to him but are now giving him the cold shoulder


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