Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby chee » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:24 pm

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:Maybe, but the movie and the related media constantly portrays Kaworu as being such a selfless and loving figure to Shinji that I have a hard time believing that he was lying or trying to manipulate him


Did you miss like

the multiple shots of kaworu either lit or framed in an unambiguously sinister manner while looking at Shinji like a lizard about to eat your pet hamster

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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby Tajai » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:34 pm

View Original Postchee wrote:Did you miss like

the multiple shots of kaworu either lit or framed in an unambiguously sinister manner while looking at Shinji like a lizard about to eat your pet hamster

:lol: That sounds awfully specific. But you're not wrong either.
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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby LightDragonman » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:24 am

Late reply, but here goes.

Honestly ErgoProxy, what you said sounds eerily like the whole "let's see you do better" argument when you bring up writing fanfiction as a way for me to vent. And to be perfectly frank, said fanfic doesn't really change the fact that the actual canon work is still out there and is something that I take huge issue with.

You mentioned that you and others are able to suspend your disbelief and claim that I only want to be entertained on my own terms, if I'm getting your response down right. Here's the thing. I am more than open to being shocked and surprised by new developments in the story. Heck, Evangelion being so unique and not what I was expecting is one of the main reasons why I was drawn to the franchise in the first place. However, if new twists and turns come out of left field and seem to contradict everything that the series seemed to be building on purely for the sake of a "theme", it becomes incredibly hard for me to suspend my disbelief, and I am instead sitting there questioning why on Earth the writers decided to take this route when a perfectly good and potentially more interesting one was available. Subversion is great and all, but only if what it presents instead is equally as interesting as what one was expecting. 3.0 just feels like they dropped interesting plot points that the previous two films were establishing purely because "muh escapism is bad" theme.

On that note, the fact that Shinji choosing to save Rei was portrayed as the worst thing he could've done in 3.0 I also found incredibly insulting. I know I keep bringing it up, so let me try to elaborate further.

Watching Shinji choose to save Rei at the end of 2.0 regardless of what "might" happen has been described as a metaphor for escapism, but I feel that does a grave disservice to both characters, as it is also totally in line with how both of them and their relationship has been building on. Rei throughout these two movies has slowly been learning that she isn't in fact expendable, and the fact that she treated her life as such is the reason she was absorbed by Zeruel in the first place, while Shinji has also been finding a true reason for him to fight that isn't just the whims of someone else. Heck, him leaving the battle after the Bardiel incident is what led to Zeruel nearly destroying the world and Rei's sacrifice, hence why he decided to come back. And it was so satisfying to see these two finally find the answer that they were looking for all this time in each other, instead of constantly being at the mercy of what other people say they are and what they must fight for respectively. Through this, it looks like they can now continue their growth throughout the rest of the series, and in turn, also start to help the others also find themselves through their example.

But then comes 3.0 and that whole thing gets unceremoniously dropped. Shinji should've never tried to save Rei, or made saving her and keeping her and those close to him safe as the reason to pilot, nor should Rei have viewed herself as being worthy of living after all, as in doing so, they just doomed the world and caused the death of millions. I know some have speculated that that didn't happen, but I can only go off of what 3.0 has shown. And true, while Kaworu might have been lying, and some of the shots don't show him in the best of light, he is still shown has being almost a sort of messiah figure (the collar even becoming a crown of thorns analogy for **** sake), along with him genuinely wanting Shinji to be happy. So what motive would he gain from lying about all that?

Back to the point, you have this relationship and these two characters that are slowly built up over the course of the many struggles and hardships that they go through together, only to suddenly drop it and instead insist that it was something you shouldn't have been invested in, because it was instead an analogy for choosing escapism over reality, which Anno has made very clear that he despises above all else. If he was going this route, then maybe he shouldn't have made the relationship one of the main focal points for two movies with very little to indicate what he actually thinks of it.

So of course I'm gonna end up disappointed as a result. He completely failed to properly convey how it was meant to be seen as, and dropped a developing plot thread purely because of "muh themes". As a result, I find it hard to get invested in any future potential developments if he is so easily willing to completely exorcise them from the story in favor of whatever message he so obviously thinks is thought-provoking. It also makes it hard to suspend my disbelief when such sudden things happen as a result.

Back to the title of this thread, I would love for Anno to prove me wrong in the next film. I'd love to see him actually give Shinji and Rei the proper development and closure that I feel they deserve at this point, especially after one movie with none of it. Given that it was arguably the heart of the first two films, 3.0 just felt like a soulless shell as a result. But of course, I'm betting that that won't happen. Anno despises Rei and her relationship with Shinji as we all know, and the polls clearly show Asuka and Kaworu as being more popular after the third movie did everything it could to utterly destroy Rei's character. Best I can see happening is that Anno just kills off Rei with little fanfare, and not a single character mourns her death for even five minutes, showing that she was nothing more than an emotionless doll all along and never deserved another chance, lest said person be diving into Anno's most despised concept of escapism.

Anno, you must be so proud.
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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:43 am

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:He completely failed to properly convey how it was meant to be seen as

Meant to be? According to who?
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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby Derantor » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:00 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Meant to be? According to who?

The quite vocal and insistent part of the fandom which proclaims that everything in Eva is super serious and that the Anti-Escapism/Maturation theme dictates everything that happens and that the series and movies should be seen in that light without additional secondary meanings or interpretations. Being new to the fandom, it was at least my experience that those people think to "get it" better than everybody else - it kind of hits you like a brick wall of opinions set in stone. The interpretations can get quite extreme, i.e., Asuka was eaten in EoE because relying on her mother's support is not independent or mature but dependent childish behaviour, so she has to be punished, or that she deserved to be mutilated while piloting Unit 03 because she chose Eva over human contact (the dinner party Rei set up), the curse of Eva was there solely as a slap in the face of the perverted Otaku wanking off to 14 year olds, who are not letting the characters grow up, so they stay 14 forever in-universe, etc. Especially in Youtube videos and explanation articles that take themselves super seriously, opinions like these are pretty widespread. My guess is that it's a game of one-upmanship, where people try to seem super mature by interpreting stuff this way, proclaiming to be prophets of the true word of Anno.

This one video comes to mind, but there are others. For the record, I am not saying these interpretations are wrong - I just take umbridge with the fact that oftentimes, it is claimed to be the only "true" way to interpret Eva. Feels like the opposite end of the "Eva is only there to ship my OTP" spectrum.

Edit: In the video I linked, watch the last segment (from timestamp 37:20 onwards): People are watching the show wrong, they curse it, complete with an emotionally manipulative "woe is me, the apokalypse is coming" segment following it, which reads to me like "I get you Anno, why oh why don't these stupid sinners who call themselves fans?" Anyway, I am just trying to offer an explanation, so please don't feel offended by my post.

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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby LightDragonman » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:20 am

Pretty much. It's why I realized just how foolish I was to have ever gotten invested in Shinji and Rei's relationship in the second Rebuild saga, and why wanting the latter to have any sort of development or chance at life is completely wrongheaded.After all, Anno despises her because she represents escapism, and liking her character over the others only means you are rejecting reality.

It just makes 3.0 all the more contemptuous of the fans when you see it that way, but that's pretty much the agreed upon interpretation, and the one that fits most in line with how much Anno hates her character and escapism in general.
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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 am

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:but that's pretty much the agreed upon interpretation,

Really? I'm aware of a range of interpretations, and for my part see no need to take Q as negating what Shinji did at the end of Ha. Of course, it gives us a very different perspective, but also cause to realise that this is in many ways misleading.

It seems to me that viewing Q as breaking the progress of the story is very much an individual choice, not an inevitability.
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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby ErgoProxy » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:50 am

Took me a while to write this post.

LightDragonman wrote:Anno, you must be so proud.

Anno laughs. Sometimes with me, sometimes at me; and sometimes he's deadly serious. All these cases are therapeutic.

No, seriously. Take for example those blue bandanas - it's probably the strongest Polish cultural code there is. When you wage an uprising and you want conventions to protect you, you need, among other things, to mark your combatant troops as soldiers; and if you lack proper uniforms, the easiest and effective way is to use ribbons with your national colors. So we did in Warsaw, when we captured some Wehrmacht's warehouses with Stahlhelmets and stuff.

On the other hand, sending civilians into battlefield is so Japanese it hurts. We trumped this shit using our boy scouts as liasons; we even erected monument to commemorate them. Eew.

Anyway and dropping what's less important.

LightDragonman wrote:Shinji should've never tried to save Rei, or made saving her and keeping her and those close to him safe as the reason to pilot, nor should Rei have viewed herself as being worthy of living after all...

Yeah, how about no. To repeat myself: 3.33 is the Kuronami's show, who interacts with both Shinji and Ayanami, and thanks to this she somehow manages to develop herself as a person, because she's the one who needs it the most in this installment. So what Anno tries to tell the fandom is: there are characters in the Evaverse more screwed than both Shinji and Ayanami could ever be; thus their responsibility now is to lend such characters a helpful hand.

Digest that and apply in real life.

LightDragonman wrote:...as in doing so, they just doomed the world and caused the death of millions.

Did you just walk out of theatre when the 2.0 credits appeared?

LightDragonman wrote:And true, while Kaworu might have been lying, and some of the shots don't show him in the best of light, he is still shown has being almost a sort of messiah figure (the collar even becoming a crown of thorns analogy for **** sake), along with him genuinely wanting Shinji to be happy.

And what does all that Christian poor men's theatre solve for Shinji? Nothing.

LightDragonman wrote:So what motive would he [Tabris] gain from lying about all that?

If you missed that detail, he declared his personal all-out war against the whole world, when he said that there is no unforgivable sin. Yes, there is: it's a sin against the Holy Spirit, Jesus said that. Tabris rebels against that. So suddenly Christianity is no longer a bag of cool visual stuff, but becomes object of serious criticism coming from a member of the last pagan empire on this planet. What's your reply?

Do you even know the basic foundations of the culture you live in? Study harder (Anno).

LightDragonman wrote:He [Anno] completely failed to properly convey how it was meant to be seen as, and dropped a developing plot thread purely because of "muh themes".

(sigh) To decode his message compare what Kuronami did and what Tabris did, and who of them did more harm to Shinji, and who of them shown more courage and flair when facing the unknown. Suicide is the endless stupidity; so while you're at this world, learn how it works (Mari).

Which all should be dropped in favor of yet another shallow harem story, because this is what some fans consider as "muh themes".

LightDragonman wrote:Back to the title of this thread

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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby Derantor » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:53 am

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:Do you even know the basic foundations of the culture you live in? Study harder (Anno).

Wait, now Anno is proclaiming christian themes? And not every western culture is Poland. My culture objects to the concept of original (or unforgivable) sin, quite strongly so, and has done so since the Enlightenment.

To decode his message compare what Kuronami did and what Tabris did, and who of them did more harm to Shinji

One is, for the biggest part of the movie, a character without agency, who gets almost no screentime, while the other has a whole section of the movie dedicated to him and has a very clear personal agenda. This comparison is disingenuous.

Which all should be dropped in favor of yet another shallow harem story, because this is what some fans consider as "muh themes".

You are the one arguing for themes - LightDragonmen is arguing from a story-telling perspective. And again, nobody is in favor of a harem story. Just that character development which leads to the same outcome might be preserved instead of scrapped to start the story over again from zero.

All in all, your position comes off as more and more hyperbolic.

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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby chee » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:37 pm

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:Anno, you must be so proud.


You know that Shinji isn't real, right?

It's a cartoon. None of these characters are real people. Get a grip and stop projecting your own neuroses and insecurities on a character that resonates with them.

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Re: Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Postby Blockio » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:13 pm

Yeah Light, you might wanna take a step back and look at what you're saying with a bit of distance, you sound so comically over the top in what you are saying that it's getting increasingly difficult to take you serious even in the slightest.

I've seen strawmen that made more sense than you are making right now.
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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby hui43210 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:35 pm

View Original Postchee wrote:You know that Shinji isn't real, right?

It's a cartoon. None of these characters are real people. Get a grip and stop projecting your own neuroses and insecurities on a character that resonates with them.


Possibly the most important thing to keep in mind on this forum. I love this show, and plenty of other anime, but damn some people need to remember these characters/plot aren't real!

The existence of Anno is still up for debate of course. :emogendo:
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Re: Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:44 pm

hui43210 wrote:some people need to remember these characters/plot aren't real!


Maya Ibuki isn't real?

Fuck.... excuse me... I have to sit down and take a minute....

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Re: Stuff that you would like to see in Evangelion 3.0+1.0

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Postby Tajai » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:47 pm

View Original Posthui43210 wrote:some people need to remember these characters/plot aren't real!

I.. I need a moment.. ;_;
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Re: Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:38 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Maya Ibuki isn't real?

Fuck.... excuse me... I have to sit down and take a minute....

Great, now I’m sad.
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Re: Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Postby chee » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:32 pm

Anyone can be real if you try hard enough reveals an asian My-Size Barbie with a fleshlight jammed into the crotch, licks lips, does a whip-it

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Re: Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Postby Giji Shinka » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:39 pm

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:Don't get me wrong, I too want to see him find some measure of closure and peace. But this kid is responsible for an event that killed off millions of people,

We don't know everything that happened during the timeskip, there are too many contradictions in Kaworu's statements. Remember that Gendo and Seele are behind all of this and Wille knows this. Their goal is to kill Gendo, who manipulated everyone, including Shinji behind the scenes and wanted all of this to happen, not Shinji who is just easily manipulatable clueless teenager who did not want any of this.

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:nearly triggered another one, and as a result, pretty much everyone hates his guts, or at the very least, are too angry and disappointed in him to convey empathy.

But the movie clearly contradicts your statement. Asuka at the end of the movie wants to help him in her own way.
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Re: Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:09 pm

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:Asuka at the end of the movie wants to help him in her own way.

Also everything about Mari. Also Misato saying "Shinji-kun..." under her breath after Mark.09 is destroyed, in a way that is clearly "I'm worried for your well-being but I can't really show it in front of the crew". (The dub completely bungled this and had her convey the exact opposite emotion, so nobody should watch the dub of Q ever, because if it can manage to completely assassinate a character by having her deliver a single line wrong, it sure can't be trusted to do anything else right.)
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Re: Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:02 pm

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:3.33 ended on seriously one of the most depressing downer notes I have ever seen,

I mean, 24 & 26/End of Eva started immediately after Shinji physically killed Kaworu with his own hands instead of just passively watching his head explode. I'd argue he's faring a bit better than he did around this time frame in NGE but I shouldn't speak too soon in case I get another hospital scene like EoE had. Regardless I find both the TV ending and EoE to end on happy notes so I see no reason to believe NTE wouldn't either.
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Re: Q sucks and Anno hates you [split]

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Postby Tajai » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:33 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:(The dub completely bungled this and had her convey the exact opposite emotion, so nobody should watch the dub of Q ever, because if it can manage to completely assassinate a character by having her deliver a single line wrong, it sure can't be trusted to do anything else right.)

Really now? I watched only the dub, and I never knew that in the JP version she actually potrayed a sense of worry for Shinji. That's interesting to know, and it sorta redeem Misato's character even if a little bit, for me atleast.
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