Split from this thread. -Reichu

I'm still really surprised at how much you guys are optimistic for what will happen to Shinji in the next film.

Don't get me wrong, I too want to see him find some measure of closure and peace. But this kid is responsible for an event that killed off millions of people, nearly triggered another one, and as a result, pretty much everyone hates his guts, or at the very least, are too angry and disappointed in him to convey empathy. 3.33 ended on seriously one of the most depressing downer notes I have ever seen, and it is gonna take some really good writing to convince me that Shinji will in any way get an ending that allows him some measure of accomplishment and redemption.

Anno was just so caught up in communicating his theme of "anti-escapism" that he left Shinji in essentially an unwinnable situation. No matter what he does, he gets people hurt or killed. The best I can see for him is for him to do a heroic sacrifice, but of course, Anno will never let that happen because "only by living can you find happiness", which is quite insulting to tons of people who have given up their lives to save people they loved. Heck, why should Shinji even attempt to save someone at the cost of himself in this film, as Anno clearly despises that sort of mindset. Especially if it involves Rei, who is Anno's most despised character, seeing her as just "a symbol of escapism", and as a result, characters like her should just rot and be left to die, as 3.33 showed. Shinji should never have seen her as someone worthy of being saved or as someone to give up his life for in exchange, as he was just trying to embrace escapism by doing so. Not like the totally morally righteous and 100% correct members of WILLE, who as the film showed, were completely justified in their hatred of Shinji.

Again, I would really like for 3.0+1.0 to prove me wrong and indeed give an ending that at least sees Shinji make peace with himself and start to heal his connections with the other characters. But based on what I've seen in regards to how 3.33 ended up, that doesn't seem likely without it coming off as a huge a** pull

Seriously, why are you all so optimistic and and so much faith in Anno? To me, 3.33 just showed me how much contempt he has for the fans for not taking his "anti-escapism" theme to heart, and will actively ruin characters or at the very least, completely tear them down and torture them in order to get it through peoples' skulls.

LightDragonman wrote:The best I can see for him is for him to do a heroic sacrifice, but of course, Anno will never let that happen because "only by living can you find happiness", which is quite insulting to tons of people who have given up their lives to save people they loved.

Spoiler alert: Now that you mention it, in the Evangelion comic Re-Take, it is revealed that Shinji is the final Angel. He attempts to sacrifice himself after mentioning, “I’m lucky to have become a pilot”. This to me is one of his finest moments. No love is greater than willing to give your life for another.

LightDragonman wrote:I'm still really surprised at how much you guys are optimistic for what will happen to Shinji in the next film.

Don't get me wrong, I too want to see him find some measure of closure and peace. But this kid is responsible for an event that killed off millions of people, nearly triggered another one, and as a result, pretty much everyone hates his guts, or at the very least, are too angry and disappointed in him to convey empathy.

There's nothing in the movies to indicate he killed "millions of people" since we still don't know the the actual scale of Third Impact and the fact the event was halted when Kaworu descended from the moon and impaled Unit-01 with the Lance of Cassius. Anything proceeding after that, which was the continuation of Third Impact, happened during the timeskip during Shinji's absence. I think you're exaggerating the supposed "hatred" the cast has for him (that's not the case with Misato) and conflating that with indifference. Willle has a priorities that don't (and shouldn't involve) involve mollycoddling Shinji.

LightDragonman wrote:Seriously, why are you all so optimistic and and so much faith in Anno? To me, 3.33 just showed me how much contempt he has for the fans for not taking his "anti-escapism" theme to heart, and will actively ruin characters or at the very least, completely tear them down and torture them in order to get it through peoples' skulls.

I think this is a bit too pessimistic of a viewpoint, no? Anno doesn't seem like a comtemptuous man shaking his fist at a fanbase that refuses to take his message to heart. I also don't get the feeling that NTE is anti-escapism. He already did that with NGE and it only seemed to fuel more escapism. I think what NTE is ultimately going to be about is making peace with your current situation, no matter how shitty it might seem, and finding the will to keep living.

With perhaps the exception of Shinji, nobody is as broken as they were at the equivalent point in NGE and EoE managed to turn that around into a nice, happy little ending. Sure, Shinji might be under the impression that everything bad that's happened in the past 14 years is somehow his fault, but as the audience we know that it's (probably) not the case. I think it's going to be alright for (most) characters.

On topic: I'm interested in seeing if the pilots are indeed the Four Adams' souls put inside human bodies. And also if the Shogi symbollism has any merits to it.

LightDragonman wrote:Seriously, why are you all so optimistic and and so much faith in Anno?

Because the Q ending is optimistic as fuck. It basically tells you that even when you were born in a meat-grinder and know nothing about life but the art of survival in a meat-grinder, you shall have a chance in your lifetme, you shall be able to make use of it and you shall not be rejected by other people, which holds true even if you were considered as defective by meat-grinder standards and bullied for that by your meat-grinder peers. Which, I bet, all hold true in case of Kuronami.

Comparing to her condition and what she has in her head, Shinji really is just a spoiled brat who entered the grinder reality only for a moment and loosed all his shit, probably even literally, in the process. Please, show me any point of discussing him, when you can discuss her.

Yeah, Q is pretty damn optimistic all things considered. Hell, apart from Kaworu there was not a single named casualty in the entire movie.

Light, I don't mean to step too close to you, but everything you're saying just sounds like the mere existence of Q pisses you off to an unreasonable degree, that how dare Anno deviate from that show he made almost two decades prior.

ErgoProxy wrote:Because the Q ending is optimistic as fuck.

I wasn’t sure if you were being sarcastic or not. If it was positive, it seems... kind of bleak to say the least.

C.T.1290 wrote:I wasn’t sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

I had the same doubts about Blockio's post above.

But no, I'm serious about that. Of course, since we've no choice but to watch Q through Shinji's eyes and mindset then yes, Q is bleak. After all it's a story of a kid who was living a relatively normal life in quite a positive setting, and then he voluntarily chose to trade it for the Japanese equivalent of Mordor. But I will be stubborn and state that Q is not the Shinji's show - its Kuronami's. The general message to digest (conveyed by Mari!) is: stop selfishly whining about your traumas, because there are people in this world suffering much worst fate than you do (North Koreans for example). And still there's hope and help awaiting for them, if they manage to do their move when the stars are right (Ia! Ia! Gendo fhtagn!).

Oh, and what's interesting is that Shinji chose Mordor in the name of love - but this motivation didn't save the world; actually it almost brought it to its end. Quite unbelievable in our Western culture, but I guess, completely understandable in an Oriental one. I'm eager to see more of such dialogue of cultures in the last installment.

After all it's a story of a kid who was living a relatively normal life in quite a positive setting, and then he voluntarily chose to trade it for the Japanese equivalent of Mordor.

Can I just say that this is precisely one of the reasons 3.33 felt so mean spirited to me, and why I have a hard time believing that the next film will have a believably hopeful tone, regardless of whether or not I would like to see it?

Shinji saving Rei was a moment that really touched me. Here we see a girl who was pretty much near death, and had essentially given up on living due to the fact that she is replaceable, and yet Shinji chooses to save her, even at the cost of himself, because he affirms to her that she is in fact unique and irreplaceable to him. That whole scene was something that I found myself getting all emotional over because it is basically reaffirming the message that no matter your upbringing or circumstances of your birth, you are not in fact, worthless and do deserve a chance to live.

And yet 3.33 instead portrays this action as the absolute worst thing Shinji could've ever done, and that Rei deserved nothing but to be left for dead and forgotten about, all because apparently trying to tell her that she has worth all along is merely the cravings of someone who would rather escape reality and embrace escapism, and that you should never ever give up your life for someone you care about, because that's just the antics of a selfish brat who can't stand living anymore. Meaning that if you are someone like Rei, don't ever expect to be saved or have meaning, as you deserve to die lest you mkae someone else retreat into escapism.

What. The. ****.

And again, because Shinji killed millions as a result of this, I can't exactly see a way for him to make amends beyond just going along with whatever WILLE, who are established as being the only ones with any true sense of sanity and what is right, has in store for him. Kaworu pretty much told him that he caused all those deaths, and why would he be lying to him? The movie and all of its tie-in materials and the like have done nothing but show Kaworu as a caring and loving individual who is one of, if not, the best choice for Shinji, with all his actions towards the latter as being selfless and full of love.

As for Rei Q, I can't exactly say that seeing the world through her eyes makes things much better. She is essentially a soulless shell with no personality and devoid of everything that made Rei such an interesting character to me in the first place. It is only at the end of the film that she starts to gain character again, but even so, given how much Anno infamously despises Rei and everything she stands for, I don't expect him to give her any really meaningful development beyond just how he sees her as a useful symbol for the things he hates. His butchering of the previous Rei only adds to that. And being someone who really empathized and connected with said previous Rei, that feels like a humongous middle finger from Anno for not hating her like he does.

Again, I can't believe you all have such faith and trust in Anno after all this.

@ LightDragonman, how much of Anno's work have you seen other than Evangelion? I'm genuinely curious, because, while Evangelion might have a bleak tone that permeates throughout the franchise, most of his other shows have more uplifting tones and endings than Evangelion.

Gunbuster's ending is bittersweet, yet celebratory.

Nadia's ending is heartwarming and nostalgic.

Evangelion's ending technically happens twice, with an uplifting "Congratulations!" ending for TV and a theatrical contemplative ending.

I don't think Anno was fully paying attention to Kare Kano's ending (possibly due to Gainax's mask falling off after their mishandling of Eva profits), but it's clumsily optimistic.

Love & Pop's ending feels like much needed therapy.

Ritual's ending is much needed therapy.

Cutie Honey's ending is fiercely optimistic and rather exciting to experience.

Like, Anno has a pretty good track record of doing right by his character's after they experience whatever extreme situations they've been put into.

As for Shinji having "killed millions as a result of [rescuing Rei]," that accusation comes from the scenes in Eva Q where Kaworu explains things to Shinji, and there are a lot of things Kaworu says to Shinji in that scenes that don't actually line up with what we saw at the end of 2.22. I suspect Shinji's actions at the end of that film weren't nearly as wide-spread as Kaworu tells us. And, I know Wille places a DSS Choker on Shinji to keep him from piloting Eva Unit 01, but even they said that was because Eva Unit 02 activated in outer space, not necessarily because of his actions at the end of 2.22. I think Kaowru is guilt-tripping Shinji over things he probably didn't even do in order to better manipulate him into pulling the spears out of Lilith.

LightDragonman, you can say whatever you want, but being a Rei fan, you shouldn't reduce her to some kind of trophy whos (which?) only reason of existence and self-development is to make the male protagonist feel rewarded for his actions. This is disgusting. It's you who downgrade Ayanami to Kuronami; it's you who are a selfish brat here and Anno understands this well enough to make an entire movie to help you growing past such thinking.

Just to remind you, Ayanami was a harbinger of hope in EoE. She still fits this role in 3.33. And the whole Kuronami arc is about her becoming such harbinger on her own. The great paradox is that to become an Ayanami she has to stop clinging to the idea of being an Ayanami, as there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. Once she's done with that she becomes mature enough to show you the middle finger, because what you could possibly order her to do wouldn't please her as a person.

"Your" Rei rebels against you and this is what you cannot stand. Hence all you do is ranting year after year, because seven (!) years ago someone took you a doll away and made her a self-controlled, independent being. Confront her as such now... if you have guts.

I think Kaowru is guilt-tripping Shinji over things he probably didn't even do in order to better manipulate him into pulling the spears out of Lilith.

Maybe, but the movie and the related media constantly portrays Kaworu as being such a selfless and loving figure to Shinji that I have a hard time believing that he was lying or trying to manipulate him. Heck, it's why he became the 2nd most popular character. Why would they want to make this guy out as a manipulative lier?

That and I wonder about Anno's mental state now given all the recent events regarding Covid-19 and the like. 3.33 was made the way it was due to him falling into another depression, and I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happens here.

It's you who downgrade Ayanami to Kuronami; it's you who are a selfish brat here and Anno understands this well enough to make an entire movie to help you growing past such thinking.

"Your" Rei rebels against you and this is what you cannot stand. Hence all you do is ranting year after year, because seven (!) years ago someone took you a doll away and made her a self-controlled, independent being. Confront her as such now... if you have guts.

Well that was quite an insulting and pretentious way to respond to me.

For the record, I'm not saying that Rei should be entirely reliant on Shinji or her relationship to him. Far from it. I wanted to see her continue to grow and realize that her life has meaning beyond just what she is told, part of which did indeed come from learning to love and care for another person, whether it was Shinji or not. Heck, I'm even all for her finding her own person beyond what she has with Shinji. I was hoping to sei Rei continue that journey in the third film

And 3.33 completely undid all that development just to replace her with another Rei who, according to you if I'm getting this straight, is basically going to once again go on a journey to discover herself beyond what she is told. An arc that we were already getting with the previous Rei, only that is apparently less interesting or meaningful because that just makes her a trophy for Shinji? Meaning that her being saved at the end of 2.22 was, rather than affirming her worth to someone close to her, just Shinji wanting his waifu back? That seriously doesn't come across as regressive to you?

For that matter, the focus of these movies has been primarily on Shinji and his growth. How exactly is the story gonna find a way to squeeze in Rei Q's apparent development when there are so many things needing to be addressed, given that this will be the last film in the series? Heck, the fact that she is essentially a soulless shell only makes it all the harder to believe that she will amount to anything other than yet another tool that is used to initiate another impact, be it via her own will or not.

But what do I know? After all, I'm just a pathetic, spineless, and selfish brat who can't accept "real independent" characters as dictated by the almighty Anno and only wants Rei to be a doll with no personality. Thanks a lot for the insult.

Seems like we're getting pretty saucy in here with the ad hominem. I think Ergo's message came off harsher than he intended so hope you don't take it too seriously lightdragonman.

Anyway, why do you consider Rei & the attempt to rescue her as escapism?

Mhm.

Well, I don't have a day-to-day contact with spoken English, so yes, I can easily cross the line between being harsh and being an arrogant jerk. On the other hand I have no problem with getting hit by ad hominem - you may call me an Anno's lapdog or whatever, cause I won't take offense for that. After all, it's just an argument in the 'Net; we're not some senators discussing whether to impeach Trump or not.

But the major problem here is that I am able to suspend my disbelief to the point of absurd, when I fall into illusion that the fictional characters are living for real, somewhere out there in the Multiverse or whatever dimension. I enjoy this illusion. I think Anno enjoys it too, as eg. he wrote Asuka to walk away from Shinji's entry plug only to make her stop with a sigh, as if she heard the audience yelling at her to go back and pick that brat. And this is why I will always growl at people who just want to kill some time and get entertained, but on their terms - because they've paid for the tickets and that's why director of the show has a bloody obligation to adjust his vision of the story to their whims.

Have a problem with some movie? Then stop whining and ranting, on and on, but do something constructive and creative instead. Rewrite the scenario, find an illustrator and do a doujinshi collaboration. You can always get good reviews, if you're able to do your job well.

I used to look down on fan fictions, but they’re a hell of a lot more of a constructive way to complain about something after a while. If you’re unsatisfied about a story, and want to remind people about it years later, then write a fan fic and do it yourself.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I used to look down on fan fictions, but they’re a hell of a lot more of a constructive way to complain about something after a while. If you’re unsatisfied about a story, and want to remind people about it years later, then write a fan fic and do it yourself.

Maybe Hideki Anno predicted this would happen while making End of Evangelion.

Quite possible he wanted to have it this way from the very beginning. The Cruel Angels Thesis ends with line of become a legend, boy and AFAIR author of lyrics said once that he first intended to use the word myth instead of legend. Well, a myth is something that is made for retelling in as many variants as there are tellers who have learned it, even if there's some canonical form of it. And even if some people claim their property rights to particullar retellings, the myth as such has to be put in the public domain of a community, because (among other things) its function is to delimit boundaries of said community: if you know it and live by it, you belong to us. So if someone calls his artwork a myth, then he consciously allows and encourages the rise of fanfictions based on it - that's my opinion.

ErgoProxy wrote:The Cruel Angels Thesis ends with line of become a legend, boy and AFAIR author of lyrics said once that he first intended to use the word myth instead of legend.

The line is 少年よ神話になれ (shounen yo shinwa ni nare), with shinwa (神話) being the word in question here. This does in fact means "myth" (see here and here). The kanji break down into kami/god + story/tale.

What if we saw the appearance of God in 3.0+1.0? And he or she was Angel 00? The creator of the F.A.R.?

ErgoProxy wrote:Quite possible he wanted to have it this way from the very beginning.

It also fits well with the stated (?) intention to make Eva a pillar of Anime in the way Gundam is. A spin-off not done by the original author is basically elevated fanfiction.