C.T.1290 wrote:I don’t know why people try to look for something in Asuka that isn’t even there.

You mean, like reasons to make dozens of posts on why she is empirically the worst?

C.T.1290#895558 wrote:I agree with you on this. [...] I don’t know why people try to look for something in Asuka that isn’t even there.

This last line makes it sound as if we do not really agree. I just bungled my argument terribly. I think they are both equally harmful for their respective development overall, which directly leads to the kitchen scene in EoE. So, if you want to hate one traumatized child, making them responsible for not acting like fully functional and healthy adults, you should hate the other as well, just for consistencies sake. I find that a little silly to begin with, just as it is silly to claim that one single action makes a character totally fine or much worse than another when those actions don't exist in a vacuum.

There's a lot more to Asuka than just being a narcissistic bitch, though - and she's my favorite character. Much like I can't hate Shinji for snapping when from his perspective, all of humanity is rejecting him, I can't hate Asuka for lashing out when her deepest fears (of being abandoned because she is not needed and feeling worthless without a purpose) turn out to be completely true; she is the only pilot who truly is replaceable and completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. She isn't even praised for her combat ability and actual achievements once throughout the whole series, is neglected by her legal guardian, is left to rot in a bathtub by NERV, and her big heroic moment turns out to be her being eaten as a sideshow for the amusement of the MP-Evas (you know, they could just have thrown those spears right away if they were actually intersted in removing an obstacle efficiently or are truly afraid of her - that they don't points to the fact that they are just cats playing with a mouse) and changes nothing at all, if that chance even existed. Oh, I almost forgot about Arael, and the possible repeat of that lovely affair in Instrumentality.

That's a lot of punishment for a character so lonely and hurt she cries for her Mama in her sleep - who, surprise surprise, also abandoned her for the greater good, willingly or not, and set her on a path to basically become a child soldier. Let me rephrase what I wrote above: It is more than a little silly to hate Asuka. Just pointing out that her behaviour is harmful is something else than blaming her for it, and hating her bully tactics is different from hating her as a character. Implying that she isn't capable of being anything but when she shows concern for other people on multiple occasions, going so far as to make sure that doll she hates so much can join the others for a meal and even choosing a spot which fits Misato's budget ...

Derantor wrote:T:rolleyes:

I read above on how some Asuka fans tend to dismiss her actions, if I read that part correctly. If you’re confused by my last sentence, what I mean is I haven’t seen her being genuinely kind to someone. Those instances you’ve pointed out seemed so few in between.

Edit: I was actually agreeing with OP here. Hopefully that will clear up a little confusion.

Blockio wrote:You mean, like reasons to make dozens of posts on why she is empirically the worst?

What else is there to her?

At this point, I don’t feel like arguing. I’ve already done enough of that.

^Ah, sorry, since I was part of the last conversation that happened in this topic and my position could be seen as being close to yours, I thought you meant me.

Derantor wrote:^Ah, sorry, since I was part of the last conversation that happened in this topic and my position could be seen as being close to yours, I thought you meant me.

Nah, it’s all good.

I know there are people who likes Asuka and thinks she’s the best girl, despite her flaws. As for me personally, she just annoys the hell out of me. Though, that much is obvious by now.

C.T.1290 wrote:What else is there to her?

At this point, I don’t feel like arguing. I’ve already done enough of that.

You haven't argued anything, all you ever did was make over the top unfounded claims on her irredeemability, refused to listen to any evidence to the contrary and just in general made a clown out of yourself. When 20% of your posts are in an admin-assembled megathread that has you specifically in the title, you might want to take a step back and reflect if you really are as undoubtedly correct in your actions as you evidently think you are.

It's been not even twenty posts since you returned and you have already accomplished the questionable feat of proving that you learned absolutely nothing. Don't bother replying to this, I have firmly had enough of talking to the brick wall that is you.

Blockio wrote:You haven't argued anything, all you ever did was make over the top unfounded claims on her irredeemability, refused to listen to any evidence to the contrary and just in general made a clown out of yourself. When 20% of your posts are in an admin-assembled megathread that has you specifically in the title, you might want to take a step back and reflect if you really are as undoubtedly correct in your actions as you evidently think you are.

It's been not even twenty posts since you returned and you have already accomplished the questionable feat of proving that you learned absolutely nothing. Don't bother replying to this, I have firmly had enough of talking to the brick wall that is you.

It’s been two years now. Isn’t it about time you forgot about all this and move on?

As for these claims, they’re just opinions and not facts.

Edit: I’m aware that my actions here has not been favorable on both our ends. Which is why I’m looking to start over. That is, if someone will let me instead of letting your past grudge get the best of you.

Asuka isn't one of my favorite characters, just not. So I didn't defend or glorify her. Simply, as I wrote, I think that Shinji's reaction is worse than Asuka's reaction. Have you ever thought that "no" is actually a help? Asuka answer negatively to Shinji's request for help, but paradoxically the refusal can be what Shinji needed, much more than other things.
But I'm not interested about this discussion, I just wanted to specify that although I'm not an Asuka fan I understand her character. Among my favorites there are Yui, Kaji, Misato, and Shinji.

That C.T.1290's discussion about Asuka has been a pretty enjoyable read. I guess I have that sort of taste... Frustration and going in circles feeds me and unleashes the adrenaline like not many things do. All I'll say now is what opinions can be wrong or misinformed.

@Shun I disagree what it was what he needed, I think it was basically the worst thing she could say in that situation. But that is likely partly why she said it. She probably thought this was what he needed, but honestly she is pretty deluded for thinking this way. A friend has a moral obligation to help in these sorts of situations. But, obviously, their relationship was more complicated and seriously damaged at that point.

@IgRAzm: That whole scene is a "Right idea, wrong time" kind of deal. Shinji desperately needs to learn that he can not depend on other people entirely, that he can not expect people to care about him just because he exists without trying to work on himself, etc. So Shun is completely right when he says Shinji needs to hear that "No". You don't get to demand affection, you can not force people to love you.

But, at the same time, it's the worst possible moment to teach him that lesson (which I don't think Asuka was trying to do. She was just understandibly done with him and his bullshit and wanted to hurt him). Shinji is suicidal and suffering an existential crisis. From his perspective, it's like drowning (and only from his perspective - no, he will not die when he is rejected, nothing actually happens to him, but that's completely irrelevant for him), gasping for air, sinking ever lower, suffering from extreme panic, stretching out your arm to reach that person standing on the shore and then getting told "Lol, just breathe, idiot", when that person could just take your hand.

Given the type of person Shinji is, I think he will not learn the intended lesson of self reliance and responsibility. During Pre-Instrumentality, he was talking to three people who he can resonably expect to care about him: A friend, a mother, and whatever mess of conflicting signals Asuka is to him. All of them ignored or rejected him when he was at his lowest point - and then he snapped. He will just internalize a self-image as a weak, unreliable and selfish monster, surrounded by callous, cold people he can never rely upon, while still blaming himself for being inately defective. "You can not demand affection" will turn into "You are not worthy of affection", "You can not force people to love you" will turn into "You are not worthy of being loved, and you should not be loved by people, and even if you are, it is just another escape from reality." He says as much before he returns: "I know those things are just self-serving delusions, I will be betrayed again, nothing will last." That's before he returns to a world which he expected to contain his friends, but, from what he can see, only consists of ruins, death and destruction - a world that he is personally and single-handedly responsible for, because he pulled the trigger, even though he didn't know what the trigger was or did. And then he tries to strangle Asuka again. And now comes the kicker: Thanks to Instrumentality, it is entirely possible that every single person on the planet knows exactly what he did.

Let's put it this way: Shinji's future state of mental health might possibly turn out to be a little less than absolutely optimal.

@IgRAzm: I don't mean that Asuka has chosen to not help Shinji because she thinks this is what he needs, I mean Asuka has chosen to help Shinji because she thinks rejection is what he needs. It's different. But I don't know if it is conscious (voluntary) reasoning or if it is unconscious (involuntary). When does Anno end and when do the characters begin?
It is interesting to note that immediately after Asuka's "no" and strangulation, Shinji complains to Rei saying that nobody understands him and that he thought the world was without unpleasantness things and without uncertainity. We can also read it in relation to Asuka's refusal: Shinji thinks that Asuka doesn't understand him and that he continues to treat him in an unpleasant and ambiguous way. But what does Rei say? He says Shinji hasn't understood anything and that he's wrong to think that everyone is like him. We can also read it in relation to Asuka's refusal: Shinji did not understand Asuka's answers and reactions because according to him those ways of doing are wrong / unpleasant / ambiguous, but this is only his subjective point of view, he is not an absolute.
Episode 26 TV and HIP serve Shinji to understand the multiplicity of points of view, and the multiple possibilities he has within himself. Before, he not understand these differences, maybe later he will learn to do it. I agree that before HIP Shinji was unaware of these things and therefore was unable to understand help other than how he thinks it should be help. In other words, Shinji was still unaware about these multiple things and gladly accepts only the things that correspond to his way of thinking, in other cases he is reluctant or unable to adapt and manage things well.
Having said that, I agree that in the NGE finale and in EoE the characters and relationships have become very unhealthy, distorted.
For its part, Asuka will learn that her way of responding is not the only one possible, nor the one to be used in all cases. We remember the caress in the EoE finale, and the TV finale "If you know yourself, you can be kind to others."

But if you ask me what I do, the answer is simple. In real life and on internet I prefer harmony, empathy and kindness, I think these are better for speak and helping people. But this is me.

You both seem to have a much better ability to express the scene and context on paper than I do, probably even if I put more effort into this here and now. I'll still try it harder this time.

I think I understand what happened. I think we disagree, but in a different manner than it is apparent. I didn't think it was about refusing help rather than rejection. I think it's about me interpreting Shun's interpretation too straightforwardly. I think there is also a disagreement in the ultimate needs of the characters, but more on that later.

I've meant what her "no" hardly counts as help because it is used to end their interaction and relationship, to have him "leave her alone", because he "always hurts her." I do think she wanted him to grow from his current self, but expressed it in the most hurtful manner, intentionally. But's also what it's not her only interest, she also wants to be left alone after everything what happened and would rather have him deal with his own issues by himself. Because even in this mini-instrumentality she can't yet see the whole picture and put herself in his shoes. Add to that her having issues with putting any trust in others, what was kinda only reinforsed throughout her career as a pilot. I want to say, she can't bring herself to make that breaktrough and accept him, but in this situation it's fair for her to judge him and she does it. It's hardly help because she is unable to provide any source of support, she refuses her acceptance of him being that support and that leads him to a dead end. I realize what in the ideal sense, what she does can be considered help, but I personally has been distancing myself from that mindset because it just seems more useful to me to focus on what is actually happening. It's not some moral judgement or anything, just explaination.

I think Shinji's issues are often semi-unfairly judged. I mean the fact what he is "required" to change, and to these people around him, it's their goal to change him forcefully. As a viewer I just can't take the same position as them, because it seems to me the people around him are incapable to provide him what it takes to actually make it worth it to change. He suffers so much while everyone keeps telling him he has to learn to value things on his own. They suck at being good teachers for this sort of lesson (I really wonder how would mini instrumentality go if Kaji-san didn't die and actually was there, with his own point of view. I know they weren't that close, but still. It would play out very differently, I think). There are so many people (just about everyone, actually) who very much rely on surrounding people's opinion, and valuing theirs is a very important part of their own self-value. I realize the issues with Shinji's way of thinking, but in the world he is in, I can't seriously judge him for never changing, it's not his failure. I'm not making a stamement against Evangelion's message, it's just what, I think, all these characters don't give enough of a support to really make it worth it, when it is so hard to value what they end up giving to him, with their all kinds of messed-up relationships with Shinji. The problem with all of them is - they can't accept themselves, yet they try to influence Shinji and keep telling him what he must change right now. There is nobody significant and important to him around who has the chance to accept him and value him for what he is, and despite the Kaworu situation, I just don't see it as all that unrealistic.

I don't think he desparately needs to change, he desparately needs the world what wouldn't put impossible demands on him. Only then he might see the point in changing, maybe even on his own, as his experiences not only traumatized but hardened him. If you are optimistic about the whole thing, that is. I didn't take away the message what you need the world pushing on you and an apocalypse to realize you should look on life differently if you are similar to Shinji, I am sure that concept is false. But he certainly needed something to shake up his dull existence with his teacher. I think it is likely if instead of Eva he happened to find some interesting job, activity, relationships, etc. - he could've become a completely different person, just because many people naturally do that when growing up.

@IgRAzm: Oh I completely agree on the unreasonableness of the demands placed on him, considering that normal teenage mistakes like thinking "Everybody should die" actually destroy the world. From our outside perspective, we can remove ourselves from the unpleasentness and suffering and take in the lessons for what they are. Shinji on the other hand doesn't have that priviledge. Edit: When I said Shinji needs to hear that "No", I meant it in that way: He needs to carefully be made to understand that he has to take responsibility on his own. That no will probably have to be the softest one possible, given what he did and went through. While EoTV has people explain concepts to him which leads to a breakthrough on his part, EoE lacks any of that. He is berated and forcefully confronted with his failures and told that he "misunderstood from the very beginning" - confronted with the absoluteness of the rejection and criticism he faces, I find it hard to believe that he will develop a balanced mindset. Most likely, he will take it literally and swing to the opposite extreme: Everything he did was wrong and only motivated by selfishness, he thought he could depend entirely on other people, so he should not depend on them at all, etc.

IgRAzm wrote: I didn't take away the message what you need the world pushing on you and an apocalypse to realize you should look on life differently if you are similar to Shinji, I am sure that concept is false.

Ironically, that might very well be the lesson Shinji takes from it all: Suffering is not a part of life, it's the point of it, because love and hope are delusions. As Shun said, Rei told him that "You thought everybody was like you", after telling him he misunderstood everything. The implication he most likely takes from that being that nobody is like him, and not in the sense that every person is different to a degree, but that he is the only one who is not like the others. After all, he was the only one criticized throughout Pre-Instrumentality. Which from his PoV can only mean that their behaviour is completely fine. Which is in itself a deeply unhealthy mindset.

Shun wrote:I mean Asuka has chosen to help Shinji because she thinks rejection is what he needs. It's different. But I don't know if it is conscious (voluntary) reasoning or if it is unconscious (involuntary). When does Anno end and when do the characters begin?

That's one of those questions that can't be answered, I think. From her perspective, I find it most likely that she is just done with Shinji. She needs him to disappear from her life, and she says as much. That she points out his flaws in the process, flaws which can be transferred over to her one-to-one, points to her being just as trapped in her own view as Shinji is. She rejects Shinji because he is useless to her: He only cares about himself, when in Asuka's world, there is only one person he should care about: Asuka ("I want everything from you or nothing"). In her PoV, Shinji isn't a person, he is an object, and a useless, impotent one at that. Only when he strangles her does she realize that he isn't. Anno knows better, of course, which is why he has set up the scene the way he has.

Shinji thinks that Asuka doesn't understand him and that he continues to treat him in an unpleasant and ambiguous way.

Maybe she understands him, maybe she is just projecting her own selfhatred onto him. She reduces him to his worst qualities, ignoring all the occasions where he actually did something altruistic and tried to change (even successfully on occasion), and the way she treats him is understandable but nonetheless highly unpleasant and ambiguous: "I want everything from you/I want nothing from you." Even ignoring words, getting burned by hot coffee is unpleasent no matter the circumstances.

I have to admit what I didn't put as much thought in what Shinji takes away from everything. What is shown in the one more final is obviously pretty ambigious, but to me many scenes before it give mixed messages as well, with how calm and determined he gets when talking with Rei, then Rei and Kaworu, then his mother. I think would be reasonable to assume he doesn't understand the lesson, but this just doesn't connect that well with these scenes, so I prefer to think there was some more context and revelations to him, in instrumentality and afterwards, those we didn't get to see. Because the interpretations of that can differ so much, I guess mine would be something like this.
In these weeks after Shinji returned to the real world he has gotten more decisive and has a better understanding of life, yet still blames himself for everything and doesn't believe he is supposed to get close to other people again. Return to the real world is an exile, where he is trying to find meaning in life without relying on others whatsoever, an opposite of what he was before. He wishes to experience life without others, and this way he might find more value the past relationships, in "the feelings what were real at the time." The reason for why he didn't lose his mind yet is both Yui and Rei healing his ego before he returned. There was a sort of therapy, but that doesn't mean he was happy in these weeks before finding Asuka, no, he actually was starting to lose it.

I realize that my interpretation is pretty negative, and ignores a lot of the good stuff he could take from what is being said. Then again, Shinji is pretty pessimistic himself. Most of all, I think he will be confused. It takes adult viewers a lot of time to get any meaning out of what's being said in EoE, so I don't expect him to actually understand it. Much more likely, he will be overcome by his emotions like most of us are the first time we see EoE. Contrary to us, who have the internet to explain it all to a certain degree, he's on his own.

The main problem I see for him is actually something else. Even if he understands everything perfectly and is determined before he returns, that determination has vanished when we next see him. Everything, and I mean everything, in the world he returns to reminds him of his biggest failure as a human being. Every single returneee is a returnee because of him - that ring in the sky is there because of him - every single person not returning is lost to the world because of him. His guilt complex is massive and all encompassing, because he is in the unique position to actually be right when he blames it all on his failure. That will be the core of his struggle, and it will never ever leave him behind.

Although on the one hand I agree that Shinji is simply a young boy, I think it is wrong to consider the characters only for their true ages. It can only be done up to a certain point, without seeking too much reasonableness and verisimilitude. It's true, Shinji and Asuka are teenagers, but it's also true that Hideaki Anno was 35 years old and that he tried to include all of himself in Evangelion, to impress his feelings on the film. In the book Schizo Anno said that Shinji represents his current part, and in an 1996 interview he said that Shinji, Asuka and Misato are characters that he feels very close to him, while Kaworu is his shadow and Rei is the deepest part of his core. What are the characters with which Shinji / Anno speaks in EoE? Asuka, Misato, Rei and Kaworu, that is, with the other parts of the identity of Hideaki Anno. In this sense we can see EoE as an internal comparison, shown through a history of metaphors. This is interesting because Shinji / Anno resolves himself by dialoguing with other parts of himself. On the other hand, Anno was doing the same thing: he thought a lot with himself and went to therapy. The only other character with which Shinji / Anno speaks in EoE is Yui, his mother.
Although Anno wanted expand the animation fan audience with NGE, we must consider that it is a show for maniakku and otaku. Robots, monsters, sci-fi, religious references, the apocalypse are above all elements that make the show cool for that kind of audience. But if you consider these imaginative elements as metaphors, for example Angels as social anxieties rather than giant monsters, Seele as Aum Shinrikyo, the third impact as a terrorist attack, HIP as a psychotherapy session etc, then I think that the scenario become closer to the spectator.
To take all these things into account, Anno could do nothing else than do EoE as he did. There are stories of teenagers, there are metaphors of the time, there are reflections on himself through various characters, there are considerations on otaku. There are many things, perhaps too many, and they have been good at trying to manage all this complexity. If Anno's inner difficulties were not yet resolved at the time, he could not have made a clearer and less ambiguous ending. Not everyone knows it, but in addition to EoE, an additional film was planned, in which the characters lived in the post-impact world. However, this film was never made, because nobody wanted to. Considering that the world of Rebuild is devastated by the Near 3rd Impact and the 4th Impact, perhaps Shin Eva will collect some ideas from the unpublished film. But now I'm OT, sorry.

That's the reason why I divide EoE into two strictly separate parts. The metaphoric, introspective level, or if you want to put it another way, the view once removed. Here, the characters work as representation of basic drives and impulses, and Asuka and Shinji especially form a symbiotic, whole character, with each being the shadow of the other: The part of themselves they hate or want to suppress. Shinji tries to fight down his destructive impulses, his wrath and will to power in an effort to please people, hoping to become the ultimate altruist (of course, with a reward in mind), while Asuka does the opposite: She strives for power and wants to forge a place for herself in the world. Asuka tries to fight her inner child, her neediness, her insecurity and dependence, seeking to become the ultimate egoist, able to only rely on herself. But to make a fully formed person, you have to accept every part of yourself and integrate it into your personality in productive ways. The kitchen scene sees the failure to resolve that conflict, ending in the "death" of both parts of this combined character. The metaphor can be expanded to include the Hedgehog's dilemma or other characters as well, or pretty much anything you like, and applied to reality. It allows for a very optimistic interpretation of EoE. On this level, where Shinji is more than just a little boy, I think we mostly agree in our interpretations.

The other part is the internal view, the character perspective. Reality in that case means the reality as represented in the show - where Evas and AT-Fields and all the other stuff exists, where souls can be split and damaged, and where the characters actually have to live with the consequences represented on screen. While the characters might take the same deeper meanings from the events they witnessed, to them, they are actually real, not a thought experiment or metaphor, and take a real toll on their psyche. From their point of view, any optimism is almost indistinguishable from wishful thinking. I should also probably explain that I see EoTV and EoE as separate endings. On the metaphoric level they are close, but the actual events in the in-universe-reality have different implications. EoE is the much harsher cautionary tale: Sometimes, if you fuck up badly enough, no matter how much you want to change, you are just screwed. Like Grave of the Fireflies ends with the death of the main character, EoE leaves the characters in a place of utter hopelessness if we actually take seriously what's shown on screen.

NTE actually tries to bring these perspectives closer together, which is evident with Shinji. While he still makes grave mistakes, the consequences are far less severe and his responsibility is diminished. The true crux of his missteps is that he awakened Unit 01, allowing other people to turn the world into the state we see in Q. Instead of pulling the trigger, he is providing the gun, so to speak. Other people are more directly involved in his failures: Nobody cheered him on in EoE, Misato does in Ha. Kaworu directly wants him to attempt another impact, until he changes his mind in the last moment, and even then, the impact never takes place. Much of Q points to the fact that the world does not revolve around Shinji, that he is not responsible for everything, not even for fixing everything he thinks is his mistake, while in EoE, the world truly does revolve around him. Rei is quite literally a god giving him a choice, and he decides the fate of all of humanity directly (knowingly or not doesn't matter). So, depending on how Final plays out, an optimistic ending for Shinji might still be possible.

So the difference between our PoVs is that I consider the parts as a whole (narrative + metaphorical), while you consider them in their singularities (narrative and metaphorical). I suppose that for Anno in those years it was difficult to give the narrative level a sincere resolution, which did not seem a cathartic content for viewers. More than pessimistically, I see the ending as something sincere: Me (Anno) and Shinji have solved our difficulties up to this point. On the other hand, the title is "Magokoro wo kimi ni", My purest (makoto) heart (kokoro) for you. For me, it's a more sincere than pessimistic ending, both for Anno and Shinji. However, I agree that Shin Eva could be halfway between EoTV and EoE, with perhaps some surprises.

I totally agree that Anno is above all sincere, and I think it makes sense in the context of Anno's battle with depression why those two perspectives seem so different to me. He consciously knows that change is always possible, hence all the positive messages towards the end. But what his heart felt is something entirely different: Change for the better is impossible, everything I do is meaningless, the world will be cruel forever and only get worse, etc. That's what depression feels like. It turns your world into hell, and that's where Shinji ends up. Any pessimism or optimism to be found in either perspective or a combination of the two is completely up to the viewer, and in my view, the ending is overall neutral. It's only when I assume Shinji's perspective, becoming part of the narrative instead of an outside entity, that my hope vanishes.

Derantor wrote:It's only when I assume Shinji's perspective, becoming part of the narrative instead of an outside entity, that my hope vanishes.

Perhaps that is (at least part of) the point? That you are not the only point of view