3.0+1.0's Troll Potential

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:00 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Here, she could swap out for a spare plugsuit, which would also provide an opportunity for Shinji and the audience to see that Asuka herself is wearing a DSS choker and yes, Shinjj, you really are an insufferable brat who needs to get the fuck over himself.


Ooh, that would be such a great wham moment on various levels. I hope that's how they'd do this—is that the direction they're heading towards in the final scene(s)?
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Postby Rei IV » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:11 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Ooh, that would be such a great wham moment on various levels. I hope that's how they'd do this—is that the direction they're heading towards in the final scene(s)?

Let's hope they add Mari to the mix as well so that way they'll join the ranks of Rei and Kaworu in being certified weirdos/freaks and maybe even "Gods". Maybe they can tie in an explanation for the "Eva curse" as well.

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Postby Melkor » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:19 pm

If they really want to add to the wham moment of revealing that the other pilots are also wearing collars, they could take it a step further and reveal that like Shinji, Asuka and Mari were also asleep these 14 years too. Like what if after Near Third Impact, when the actual Third Impact happened Asuka and Mari both ended up getting absorbed into their Evas too as a side-effect, and only recently came back (like a few months before Shinji did), and went through a similar experience to Shinji when he was pulled out of Unit-01 and had the collar placed on him. A revelation like this would show that things are not bad as they initially seemed and would further emphasize the point that Shinji basically overacted and jumped to conclusions without hearing the full story if it turns out the other pilots are also in the same boat as him.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:11 pm

You know, the new Evangelion movies haven't shown any material that makes audiences regret birthday suit fan service yet. Like, there was an abundance of the sort of fan service in 1.11 and 2.22, and a stark lack thereof in 3.33, but nothing that was intended on causing the audience to react with disgust or dread just yet. This is noteworthy because the original TV series definitely makes one regret seeing the unclothed or the sexually provocative after a while. The Wille pilots changing plug suits and revealing DDS Chokers would certainly fit the bill of causing feelings of dread in the presence of what would typically be considered "fan service" earlier in the franchise. There could even be a shot of a Wille pilot changing plug suits that mirrors the shot of Rei changing into her plug suit in 1.11, but the pilot is wearing the Choker.

Actually, I'm almost anticipating that exact shot at this point.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:45 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:You know, the new Evangelion movies haven't shown any material that makes audiences regret birthday suit fan service yet.

If the slutsuit didn't cause regret enough for you to mention, then I doubt a DSS choker reveal will. We're talking about an incredibly powerful international organization backed by ancient forerunners decking a teenage girl out in a transparent skin-tight suit catered to the male gaze, which shows much of her ass crack and is plunged all the way down past her pube line (but anime characters don't have pubes anymore so I guess it's okay?) and if the transparent part went any lower we could see the top of her vulva (but anime characters don't have those either, I guess). This is done specifically in the context of said teenage girl acting as a virgin sacrifice to a giant monster. Mari calls Asuka "Princess" and the audience thinks it's cute, but what most don't realize is that Asuka is a "princess" in the great tradition of Andromeda and Kushinada, a sacrifice who survives the ordeal to tell the tale -- only Asuka actually does get eaten by the monster and, as a result, becomes one herself. And the only thing the characters have to say about the awful suit foreshadowing this whole terrible fate is "ISN'T THIS A BIT REVEALING?!?" and then just ignore it and move along as if there's nothing molesty about the whole thing and the experiment shouldn't maybe get put on hold so they can find out who's sanctioning this nonsense.

This post is partly tongue in cheek but it's also partly serious and I couldn't tell you which parts are which.

EDIT: Also, heck, who even needs the slutsuit to feel violated by the "service" in these movies when you have the camera going up between Asuka's spread legs while she's tossing and turning in bed with no pants on and the storyboards specifically requesting that it be "pervy"?
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Postby intermediateO » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:34 pm

View Original PostMelkor wrote:If they really want to add to the wham moment of revealing that the other pilots are also wearing collars, they could take it a step further and reveal that like Shinji, Asuka and Mari were also asleep these 14 years too.


Honestly, this would be like the best case scenario to me, seeing as how much they ignored the age difference of characters in 3.0 really icked me out.

My actual hope/theory is that Asuka was at least still comatose through both the fallout of Near 3rd Impact and Actual 3rd Impact. Her basically waking up to the Post-3rd Impact world and everyone is telling her it's Shinji's fault.

Based on her few quips in 3.0 of her knowledge of 3rd Impact though, such as when she is down in Terminal Dogma and says she "won't let 3rd Impact start up again", it seems like she must have a lot of the genuine intel on what actually happened, that is, if she wasn't there at ground zero herself.

At the very least, I hope it is a plot point that she has been fed propaganda about Shinji and the N3I that happened while she was sleeping.

I think Mari has def been conscious the entire 14 years, but it would be a nice surprise if she also had a comatose period.

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Postby Melkor » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:29 am

View Original PostintermediateO wrote:Honestly, this would be like the best case scenario to me, seeing as how much they ignored the age difference of characters in 3.0 really icked me out.

My actual hope/theory is that Asuka was at least still comatose through both the fallout of Near 3rd Impact and Actual 3rd Impact. Her basically waking up to the Post-3rd Impact world and everyone is telling her it's Shinji's fault.

Based on her few quips in 3.0 of her knowledge of 3rd Impact though, such as when she is down in Terminal Dogma and says she "won't let 3rd Impact start up again", it seems like she must have a lot of the genuine intel on what actually happened, that is, if she wasn't there at ground zero herself.

At the very least, I hope it is a plot point that she has been fed propaganda about Shinji and the N3I that happened while she was sleeping.

I think Mari has def been conscious the entire 14 years, but it would be a nice surprise if she also had a comatose period.


The story wants us to believe that 14 years have passed for everyone, but there seems to be a huge dissonance between how Asuka and Mari act compared to how all the other adults on the Wunder act. The adults on the Wunder are all clearly weary and battle worn, which is to be expected from 14 years on the run, but Asuka and Mari don't seem to quite give off that same vibe. Mari for example acts almost the exact same as she did in 2.0 as though nothing has changed. Asuka and Mari having recently woken up after a similarly long absence to Shinji would explain this difference in behavior. They've been around just long enough to become filled in on the situation and acquaint themselves with how things are, but not long enough to where they have become as weary and battle worn as Misato and the other Wunder crew members. With how that French NERV facility has all those Eva parts laying around, you'd think Willie would have raided it sooner with how strapped for resources they are, but didn't, and that could be because they had no reason to go there until now because nobody was piloting EVAs until recently. If Asuka and Mari were fighting for 14 years straight, with all the damage their EVAs would have sustained they would have run out of spare parts on the Wunder a long time ago and would have needed to restock much sooner, but the AVANT 1 seems to give off the impression that this is the first time the Wunder crew has been to that Paris Nerv facility.

After Near Third Impact, Asuka could have woken up from her coma, then the 12th Angel arrived and began the real Third Impact along with Mark-06, and it was up to Asuka and Mari to try to stop it. If just a partial impact was enough to cause Shinji to be absorbed into Unit-01, just imagine what a real impact could have done to a pilot? The process of stopping it could have caused Asuka and Mari to be absorbed into their EVAs, and they have only recently returned to the world of the living as of a few weeks or months before the start of 3.0. That 03 that was written on Shinji after he just got out of Unit-01 could have a different meaning than Third Child. It could actually mean that he is the third pilot to have reemerged from their EVAs into Willie's custody after Asuka and Mari. The events of Third Impact are such a huge mystery with so many unanswered questions that it's almost become like a Noodle Incident.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:46 am

Reichu, lol, let be try to dance around your half seriousness in my response. I think most of the shots you described were still meant to be presented as being "all in good fun," for the viewer upon first viewing. Certain audience members (such as you and me) might still feel creeped out by their inclusion, but I don't think that was the intended result of their inclusion. The pilot hadn't yet been sacrificed to the monster, and the films hadn't yet revealed exactly who or what Seele is, so the fan service really only works as imparting a sense of dread in retrospect for the audience, after the sacrifice had already been made and after the revelation of who and what Seele really is. Basically, the full context of the fan service around Asuka in that scene hadn't fully been revealed, so it really doesn't work as part of building a sense of dread at the time upon first viewing. It might work more as a bait-and-switch, actually. Audiences are probably meant to be distracted by the "slut suit," and then be caught completely off guard when the sacrifice did actually start to happen. Asuka's conversation with Misato during that same scene certainly achieved that effect on me upon first watch. I was so caught up Asuka's apparent emotional growth during that scene, that I completely forget that I was basically watching the reenactment of Episode 19 where Toji is sacrificed to an Angel. In that context, Asuka's seemingly pointlessly windowed plug suit might have also been meant to catch audiences off guard before the Angel infestation began. (It's also important to note that I don't think that the Angel infestation of Unit 03 was intentional on the part of Seele, so I don't think it's entirely within good faith to argue that Asuka was diegetically dressed up in compromising clothing in order to be sacrificed to a monster.)

As for the scenes with the panties and the crotch shot, I still think it was meant to be presented in the same spirit as the rest of the fan service to a certain degree. I'm still going back and forth in my head about whether or not the shots were also meant to set up a sense of sexual tension before Asuka snuck into Shinji's room. I'm not here to argue that either of them were planning to (or ended up) boning each other that night. (This is no baseless "Asuka & Shinji Had Sex In Episode 15" bullshit, like certain others had erroneously suggested before with the TV series.) But I do think that, given the placement of the crotch shots within the rest of the scene, that it might have been used to suggest that Asuka possibly wanted to feel less alone in ways other than merely social and was probably just struggling with that thought. Like, she might have a slight crush on the cute boy living in the same house as her, and she doesn't quite know what to do with that yet. It certainly fits right in with the jealously Asuka shows later on in the film when Rei starts inviting Shinji to a home-cooked dinner.

Now, despite all that, those artistic decisions can still certainly come off as creepy anyway. Like, even if those decisions were made with the intentions I described above, I don't know how necessary all of those artistic decisions were to begin with, and they certainly still come off as creepy to me sometimes, especially when fans can't seem to get over them in one way or another. But I'd like to think that those shots served a greater narrative function before the series had properly established or revealed its inherent sense of dread about the fan service in the story.

The DSS Coker, by contrast, has already been fully set up in Eva Q. We know what its function is and how the stakes of the story are raised as a result of a pilot wearing one. All of that world building that was lacking before the "slut suit" scene is all finally neatly established by the end of Q, so now fan service shots that reveals a DSS Choker would work less as the arguable bait-and-switch with the "slut suit" scene, and more as the culmination of all of the dread that had been established previously in the film series.

Does that make sense?

(Also, Rei II totally has pubic hair. If you adjust the brightness/contrast levels in her tank scene, you can see them. Asuka just shaves, apparently.)
Last edited by FreakyFilmFan4ever on Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:09 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:(It's also important to note that I don't think that the Angel infestation of Unit 03 was intentional on the part of Seele, so I don't think it's entirely within good faith to argue that Asuka was diegetically dressed up in compromising clothing in order to be sacrificed to a monster.)

Well, about that...

post/439425/Eva-2XX-Storyboards-vs-Final/#439425
post/447495/Eva-2XX-Storyboards-vs-Final/#447495

It's either that or there's, what? No diegetic explanation at all? Personally I find the dismissal of Watsonian explanations while failing to provide any kind of substitute to be in bad faith, if you're going to make a stink and go there.

Regarding the argument as a whole, I find it misguided as best since it's basically, "Well, this brazenly male gazey thing didn't bother ME, so I guess it didn't bother anybody!", which is... not a real basis for any kind of discussion at all other than your own personal tolerances, which is not the claim you were making, and this whole thing is a non-starter.

EDIT: You're mistaking the shading on Rei's lower abdomen for pubic hair. That's... yeah, I'm walking away from this and not looking back.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:47 am

If a scene is deleted from the film, and the world-building provided in that deleted scene isn't reproduced anywhere else in the finished story, then the world-building is also deleted. Khara made a conscience effort to delete the scene and its world-building for specific reasons, and, until they decide to reincorporate that world-building elsewhere, I'm not sure how comfortable I am accepting it as a dietetic. After all, "diegetic sound" refers to an on-screen source for the sound. If the world-building ended up not being depicted on the screen at all, I'm not sure how accurate it is to call it diegetic. (Plus, even with the scene intact, it still occurs after the Unit 03 activation test, which seems to support the idea that the fan service is more of a bait-and-switch than it is the culmination of dread.)

However, I'll concede to your point about Seele's intent and even the diegetic presence of that intent in the film. The simple fact that the "slut suit" was used only once in the entire series and then never again, used specifically during the Unit 03 infestation and for no other Eva-related task, and the fact that Ritsuko later on tells Maya that Seele really wanted to keep Asuka as a specimen after the Angel infestation is enough to arouse suspicion about what Seele's true intentions were with Unit 03's activation. I'll have to rewatch that film just to refresh my memory, though. The whole scene where Ritsuko and Maya discuss the intentions of their superiors over Asuka's comatose (?) body has an eerily foreboding tone that shouldn't be overlooked. Without the deleted scene, the intent is far less prominent in the film, but I think there's still enough going on in the surrounding scenes to suggest that it's there.

Either way, upon my many rewatches of that film, the "slut suit" always fills be with dread. But that's only because I know how it's all going to end.

(Also, that deleted scene you referred to sounds dope and I wonder why they cut it to begin with. I mean, I love Anno's blunt emotional storytelling, so the fact that he decided in favor of subtle foreboding throughout instead of further wailing on my emotions confuses me. I almost feel betrayed by Anno's lack of beating my feelings into submission in that instance.)

EDIT: Yeah, you're probably right about the shading. Sorry if I upset you. I didn't mean to.

FURTHER EDIT:
View Original PostReichu wrote:Regarding the argument as a whole, I find it misguided as best since it's basically, "Well, this brazenly male gazey thing didn't bother ME, so I guess it didn't bother anybody!", which is... not a real basis for any kind of discussion at all other than your own personal tolerances, which is not the claim you were making, and this whole thing is a non-starter.


Um....
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Certain audience members (such as you and me) might still feel creeped out by their inclusion, but I don't think that was the intended result of their inclusion.


Now, despite all that, those artistic decisions can still certainly come off as creepy anyway. Like, even if those decisions were made with the intentions I described above, I don't know how necessary all of those artistic decisions were to begin with, and they certainly still come off as creepy to me sometimes, especially when fans can't seem to get over them in one way or another. But I'd like to think that those shots served a greater narrative function before the series had properly established or revealed its inherent sense of dread about the fan service in the story.

Sure, I'll admit to succumbing to male gaze, and I won't even pretend that I can look past it every so often. (Because, hey, I don't know if I can look past it or not. Ever.) But, I did express at least twice that I personally didn't feel entirely comfortable with the admittedly pervy creative decisions being made. And regardless of how we define the male gaze, maybe sexualizing minors shouldn't be a part of that definition? (At least, I would hope that sexualizing 14-year-old girls isn't inherent to a dude-like perspective.) Granted, the fact that those scenes bother me in that way might be why I'm trying to find a way to justify those decisions by hypothesizing about creative intent, so that I can feel comfortable with them in a way that isn't "pervy." And, granted, that desire to justify them might also be misplaced. But, as I've stated twice in my previous post, I was bothered by them. Maybe I should be more clear in my posting habits next time.

Again, I'm sorry if my posts made you feel uncomfortable. I didn't mean to do that. I thought I was just making conversation about how the last movie might slowly turn towards the same narrative tones and thematic twists that the last part of the TV series did. I apologize, and I should learn how to post better.

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Postby Derantor » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:33 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:(At least, I would hope that sexualizing 14-year-old girls isn't inherent to a dude-like perspective.)

Well, it is. As soon as visible signs of physical maturity manifest themselves, your lizard brain activates your reproductive urges. Simple as that. As uncomfortable as the thought is, a well developed fourteen year old isn't percieved any different from a similarily developed eighteen year old at first glance. That said, your lizard brain also develops a natural aversion towards people percieved as too young. So while an 18 year old might look for potential mates in the range of 14-20 or so, a thirty year old will start at 18-20+, and once you actually start talking to people, a natural aversion towards mental immaturity should kick in as well.

Personally, I've always felt revulsion rather than attraction towards the slut-suit. It's a completely different beast from the naked synch test in NGE, where the camera turning on again was the most objectionable thing. There was nothing inherently sexual about the way nudity was presented, while the transparent suit serves no visual purpose other than to play up Asuka's sexuality, with her playful reaction to it all, showing off even more and assuming a borderline suggestive pose, hammering home just how wrong it is.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:52 am

Well, to be fair, there’s a clear difference between a middle schooler/high schooler watching Eva and responding to the pilots’ suits, and a 32-year-old curmudgeon of a man (myself) watching Eva. It’s like watching Disney's Aladdin as a kid and thinking “Jasmine is kinda hot,” then revisiting the film as an adult and thinking “Child, you are 16 years old; you can’t run off with that strange dude on the carpet! Where’s your dad?”

Yeah, maybe it’s not fair for me to make my discomfort be the de facto judgement on a movie that’s meant to relate to a specific age demographic that isn’t mine. Just so long as they aren’t actively promoting/normalizing harm to others, and building healthy character depth, it’s okay. Fiction always worked best as a safe environment in which to explore certain emotions, anyway. Teenagers who are bewildered and blindsided by new pubescent experiences watching a movie about other teenagers experiencing the same thing isn’t a bad thing at all, just so long as the messaging and thematic elements are clearly stated and on the up and up.

I do like Reichu’s interpretation of the windowed Test Suit being made to ease the angel infestation of the pilot. That’s got some real narrative stakes to it, and the circumstances around the test provide enough evidence towards that to at least arouse suspicion. But it seems as though Rei II was intended to be the test subject, not Asuka. (Asuka volunteered in Rei’s place, remember?) I wonder what kind of effect that would have had on Rei, given her state as a clone and whatever else might Ben going on with her state of being. (I forget if the new movies suggested that she was part angel this time around.)

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:52 pm

Misato announces fanservice in every preview and Eva fans are still surprised there is fanservice. ;)

Tbh I think the test suit was just there for that purpose, though it very well could have been intended to distract from what was about to happen. But it really isn't that much more of a sexualized, sort of nonsense suit than the other plug suits imo. It goes to the next level, but is just exaggerating a concept which already exists.

The crotch shot 100% is indicating there is some sexual tension going on in my eyes. I guess it can be embarassing watching the film with company, but I think it's as valid a shot with a function as any other.

I don't think Eva is for little kids so I personally don't see the issue.

If some older hypothetical viewer were to develop some sort of negative views of women due to watching Eva, they were probably beyond saving to begin with.

In other words, in some ways Eva is light porn. Not everyone will like that fact. But I think it's somethimg established since 1995.

Edit: I'm surprised the test suit is an issue because Asuka is supposed to be a 14 year old character, but the countless other ways she is sexualized are less so?

I hope you guys don't know about the Evangelibon artbook (I did actually write a rant about that once, which was probably fairly stupid).

I hope I don't sound condescending, I'm just surprised. But it's ok to feel uncomfortable, offended or whatever else at any piece of media.
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Postby Rei IV » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:47 pm

Not meaning to backseat mod but maybe someone split this thread to further the discussion as to whether we find Asuka's transparent plugsuit objectionable or not (Reichu? Anyone?)

:???:
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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:57 pm

∆ Yes, makes sense.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:06 pm

Aaaanywho, um....

The end credits will be in the middle of the Shin Eva movie. No explanation. (EoE style.) Many audience members will leave the theater during these credits. Some will stay, finding the other half of the movie after the credits. Word-of-mouth spreads about this oddity, causing the audience members who missed half of the movie to buy tickets all over again while causing other curious parties to buy tickets to see the movie as well. Both the redundant ticket sales and the extra interest in the film generating even more total sales than the film would normally do otherwise, making it the biggest financial success in Khara's history. The phenomenon is reported, and headlines spread across the entertainment papers and news sites in Japan, with articles and forums talking endlessly about how audiences missed half of the movie because they weren't prepared for the EoE call back in the middle of the movie.

Despite all of that industry news coverage, Funimation will somehow miss the memo about the credits and simply release only the first half of the movie in the U.S., both theatrically and on home media.

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Postby intermediateO » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:43 pm


If the time-loop/time-travel theories end up being true, then I wouldn't be surprised by mid-credits either, with them marking where the film splits from the "3.0" into the "1.0" portion.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:28 am

With all the implications that Q and Shin are basically just one big movie that got split into two theatrical films over the course of production, I would argue that we've already sat through a mid-credits sequence. (It's Sakura Nagashi.)
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Re: 3.0+1.0's Troll Potential

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:57 am

The end credits will be in the middle of the Shin Eva movie. No explanation. (EoE style.) Many audience members will leave the theater during these credits.

Wow lol.
The only thing that could prevent this would be people looking at the time.
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Re: 3.0+1.0's Troll Potential

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Postby Blockio » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:16 pm

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The end credits will be in the middle of the Shin Eva movie. No explanation. (EoE style.) Many audience members will leave the theater during these credits. Some will stay, finding the other half of the movie after the credits.

Yeah I can see Anno doing that kinda, lol.
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What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu


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