Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:18 am

Ursus’ post above is partly prompted by our own off-forum chats, so here I’ll divulge some of the thoughts I already shared with him. Doing things a bit backward, I suppose, but... so it goes.

First is a follow-up observation pertaining to Fuyutsuki’s potential betrayal of Gendo. Q took (I assume) all of us by surprise when it revealed that Gendo has donned an NGE!Kiel Lorenz-esque visor,

SPOILER: Show
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and that the being represented by the “Seele 01” monolith, while still referred to as “Kiel Lorenz” in the script and credits for the first two movies, and still voiced by the inimitable Mugihito, is in fact just the monolith, and has been for any number of millennia now.

What is actually meant by this? I’m not entirely sure, myself. I can’t recall ever (actively OR passively) stumbling across a fully satisfying explanation for Kiel Lorenz’s state in NGE, which leaves me without much guidance as to why aspects of Lorenz’s character have been merged into the new Gendo.

However, there IS one fairly straightforward connection. The presence of a high-tech sci-fi visor covering the eyes suggests a state of blindness, whether this is objectively true (as with Geordie LaForge of Star Trek: The Next Generation, who required his VISOR device to see) or simply metaphorically true (the visor is used to supplement still-functional eyes, but nonetheless evokes everything that comes with the act of ‘covering one’s eyes’, as with Murphy in RoboCop). With both Kiel and Gendo, there is simply no way to know which of these is true, and it possibly doesn’t even matter.

In Kiel’s case, he showed his “blindness” in part by being completely unable (or simply unwilling) to see Gendo’s perfidy until all possible remaining doubt was gone. Gendo got only slaps on the wrist; no true checks were placed upon his powers. Kiel only acted to have Gendo and his organization eliminated long after the point where intervention was in any way convenient, and it was basically a mad rush to see who seize the means of Instrumentality first.

The applications for Gendo in NTE are fairly obvious, as outlined in my previous post. We see in Q that he is so confident that he barely acts at all, to the point that even Fuyutsuki (who has somehow put up with god knows how many years of Gendo’s shit by this point) is frustrated with him. Fuyutsuki, not Gendo, is the one who ultimately pushes Shinji into a state that guarantees his participation in Eva 13’s sortieing. Interestingly, Fuyutsuki is also the one who actually kills Seele — Gendo is just giving a speech, while Fuyutsuki is doing the truly important work. The movements of the 04 Series also seem to be Fuyutsuki’s responsibility. He’s been a busy guy. What the heck has the so-called “King of the Lilin” been doing, other than sitting around and waiting for the moment to inject that good Nebuchadnezzar shit into his veins? Beats me.

In any case, I think we have the perfect storm brewing here. An overly confident and complacent supreme commander. A deputy commander with literal armies at his disposal, willing to personally execute his enemies, who will sully himself and his own ideals of humanistic compassion (implied to still be part of his character in NTE — “tis a wretched role I play”) for the sake of the big picture. Gendo is “blind” and, much like Kiel Lorenz before him, will not see what is coming.

I’ll post some additional thoughts later.
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Rei IV » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:49 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The applications for Gendo in NTE are fairly obvious, as outlined in my previous post. We see in Q that he is so confident that he barely acts at all, to the point that even Fuyutsuki (who has somehow put up with god knows how many years of Gendo’s shit by this point) is frustrated with him. Fuyutsuki, not Gendo, is the one who ultimately pushes Shinji into a state that guarantees his participation in Eva 13’s sortieing. Interestingly, Fuyutsuki is also the one who actually kills Seele — Gendo is just giving a speech, while Fuyutsuki is doing the truly important work. The movements of the 04 Series also seem to be Fuyutsuki’s responsibility. He’s been a busy guy. What the heck has the so-called “King of the Lilin” been doing, other than sitting around and waiting for the moment to inject that good Nebuchadnezzar shit into his veins? Beats me.

After the scene where Kaworu gives Shinji the revelation he was (allegedly) the cause for Third Impact, we see Fuyutsuki with Gendo in old NERV HQ with the later talking about re-writing Seele's scenario. Fuyutski questions Gendo about whether Shinji wouldn't benefit from seeing how he lives and his expression seems to be that of annoyance or being dismayed and how he refuses to believe that. Perhaps during the time skip ol' Kou had reached a breaking point dealing with Gendo's shenanigans (whatever they were) and cryptic nature and secretly was re-writing Gendo's re-written Seele scenario behind his back. Out of loyalty, he'll stick with Gendo until the very end but I wonder if there's a part of him that doesn't look at Gendo and to thinks to himself "I'm disappointed in you". I also have to wonder what other motivations would Fuyutski's have to "betray" Gendo when the appropriate time comes. Can we assume their relationship has the exact same dynamic they had in NGE (Episode 21) and is not too dissimilar or will we get some sort of flashback/revelation/exposition that reveals another layer to their relationship, something that was never present in the 1995 anime.

It's very hard not to use NGE to fill the gaps but it also makes much sense to treat these movies as completely separate entities from the 1995 series, even if there are "callbacks'" to it.

:think:

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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Mr. M » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:30 pm

Well he says more than once that he does all of this for Yui or at least works for Yui's plan, whatever it is, so probably the NGE dynamic is the same here.
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:51 am

@Rei IV: The scene of Fuyutsuki and Gendo in the dilapidated office was precisely the one I was thinking of, as a matter of fact! :D The whole matter of how much we can infer from NGE is tricky. On the one hand, NTE is 100% aware of its connection to NGE and it makes use of this connection at every turn, though the relationship isn't entirely straightforward. It definitely requires a fair bit of critical tricking on our part. On a very tentative basis, it can be used to fill gaps, but in no way can it be counted on. Unless the information is explicitly provided within NTE itself, then the truth of the matter could be a complete subversion from what held true in NGE, even if it at first does not seem to be that way. So it's basically as you say: the basic dynamic of Gendo and Fuyutsuki's relationship might be the same, or it might be different in some way we can't possibly predict. I pretty much just restated your entire post there, didn't I? Heh... heh heh.

Fuyutsuki's heightened influence and power might extent into the backstory we've been told next to nothing about. I'll repost something from another thread here:

View Original PostReichu wrote:I feel like something weird is being implied to the effect of a common origin for all three -namis. The most obvious thread in common would be the Artificial Evolution Laboratory, where both Yui and a woman with suspicious visual similarities to both Mari and Asuka worked. Less obvious is the Fuyutsuki link, which was suggested by Shiro (an old user here) on the EGF Discord. Effectively: -nami means "wave", and "Fuyutsuki" means "winter moon". The moon is responsible for generating waves. I.e., wordplay is being utilized to suggest that Fuyutsuki has something very important to do with this whole -nami business. (...)

View Original PostReichu wrote:[This was] something I couldn't get out of my head once I heard it -- like, "well, fuck, how did we never notice that before?" In NGE, we only have Rei Ayanami, and FuyuTSUKI refers to her as the product of his despair -- implying that he played a big role in her creation. ["The moon makes the waves."] Now in NTE, we have not just Rei Ayanami, but Asuka Shikinami, Mari Makinami, and Yui Ayanami. There's something weird about [at least three of] them; two of them have had their names changed from NGE to fit the "nami" scheme. There are hints that Fuyutsuki's expose in Q is just the warm-up for an expanded role; [and] he was definitely present at the AEL, which is the common thread between the -namis (...).

(Bunch of crap removed/rephrased to account for mistakes that were made and since corrected.)

Where am I going with this? I'm not sure. Maybe the rest of you will have thoughts that are slightly more useful.
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Rei IV » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 am

I can't really add much either other than the possibility that maybe, if Anno and co. go down this route, the mothers of Mari (think of the woman that has Mari's likeness along side Yui in the picture Fuyutsuki shows Shinji) and Asuka, along with Yui, were all acquainted with one another and Fuyutsuki during the conception of the Evas and before Yui became one with/part of Unit-01. A trio of some sort. The same women whose descendants would be destined to become Eva pilots (yes, I'm including Rei who might as very well be her daughter, not Yui 2.0). I sound like a broken record player but I haven't watched the movies in a while but I can safely assume they don't focus on theme of motherhood as much as NGE (or am I being mistaken?) so Mari, Asuka, and Shinji having their mothers being involved with NERV and the Evas, motivated by wanting to make a shitty world a better place for their children (and hope for a better future), and knowing Fuyutsuki personally would call back to that theme as well as -nami name scheme. This is entirely out of my ass, of course.

The final movie can open with a scene of the three women some where in what will be become NERV conversing about work, motherhood, God, the shittyness that is the post-2nd Impact world with a amused Fuyutsuki-sensei present and have a good old laugh about how their surnames sound similar.

:nyao:

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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:02 am

Gendo's visor is different from Keel's in one key respect - Keel's visor goes over his ears as well so perhaps he can't hear without it either, while Gendo's ears are plainly exposed. Perhaps it's more of "hear no evil, see no evil (or betrayal)" for Keel in NGE and "see no evil (or betrayal)" for Gendo in 3.0. It means that Gendo's keeping his ears open but he can't see what's in front of him with Kozo, while Keel couldn't see what Gendo was up to and didn't bother to hear warnings from the other suspicious Seele members.

On the topic of seasons and moons, it occurs to me that choosing the destroyer Fuyutsuki for Kozo's name may not just be because of how the destroyer picked up the survivors of the Yamato after she was sunk, but in terms of creation during a barren period. Winter in the high latitudes is a season of death or rest and stillness where nothing new grows (unlike in the tropics where that honor is reserved for summer) so it could mean that Fuyutsuki's creation of the -nami series women happened out of rather barren circumstances, i.e. he made waves when the world was barren, quiet and at rest.

EDIT: And on topic of Seele-01 being "Keel Lorenz" in the script prior to 3.0, perhaps this isn't a mistake or a change during production. While the "souls" of Seele were always meant to be the monoliths, the very fact that Seele were out to help humanity throughout and have rather human-sounding voices (as opposed to whatever the hell a Janus-faced creature should sound like!) suggests that they were around to take human form. It may explain Keel's line in the 2.0 storyboard that says "We cannot subsist through the individuals", a line that was cut from 2.0. As far as I understand, there's nothing that says that Seele-01 didn't take the Lilin form of Keel Lorenz to proceed with the HIP before returning to their true monolith form, reserving their monolith appearance for those who were in the know (like Gendo). So Seele-01 could've occupied the body of a crotchety old cyborg named Keel Lorenz offscreen during the events of the first two movies but returned to his monolithic form in 3.0. It's a stretch, but it could explain the oddity of having Keel referred to by his old name when he's plainly no longer the same being as he was in NGE.
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Reichu » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:18 am

The Eva Mk.10 lantern that was just revealed has a Seele symbol on it, but it's... not quite right. We can at least tell that it's been mirrored. Instead of 3 eyes on the left and 4 on the right, it's the opposite. This is really weird and it suggests something pretty big.

SPOILER: Show
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Namely, that even after Seele have been killed, and their watchdog Mk.9 destroyed, somebody has stepped up to the plate with a modified version of the Seele directive. You probably already know who I'm going to suggest: the Deputy Commander himself, of course. I already went over the angle pertaining to Fuyutsuki usurping Gendo, who represents Nemo (the king who must be deposed) in one sense, but there's another one I didn't look at.

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^ (Look in the puddle of blood for Gargoyle's pointy hood.)

While Gendo is delivering a speech, Fuyutsuki is the one who actually executes er, excuse me, euthanizes Seele. (He has a shifty look on his face while he's doing it, too. Could mean nothing in particular. Or it could take on greater meaning with additional context. Dunno.) Seele are (in all likelihood) ancient holdovers of a pre-Lilin civilization (PLC), and this "relic" status makes their authority comparable in some ways to that of Nemo, the patriarch of an Atlantean royal house. Both Seele and Nemo are part of an "ancient order" that might be considered out-of-touch by some, and well worth the trouble of getting off the game board. And speaking of which, Gargoyle attempts to murder Nemo himself as part of his original coup (and then later tries to do it again using Nemo's daughter Nadia; but being the flamboyant villain that he is, he's not terribly successful either time).

Bringing this back to the Seele symbol weirdness: Gargoyle starts off as the prime minister of Tartessos, meaning he works for Nemo. When he decides to seize power for himself, in order to restore Atlantis to its former glory, he takes Nemo's crest and modifies it slightly for use as the symbol of his Neo-Atlantis empire.

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So does this inexplicably mirrored Seele symbol -- which might have other alterations that aren't visible, on account of the "low resolution" of the Mk.10 image -- have a sort of "Neo-Seele" connotation, in the same way that Gargoyle's symbol represents "Neo-Atlantis"? In other words, a rejection of the former misguided leadership and attempt to recreate something great that had been lost?

I find this idea alluring because , even after I started drinking the "Gargutsuki" Kool-aid, it was not entirely clear to me why Fuyutsuki would betray Gendo. As in, how do their plans appreciably differ? At this point, it's hard to say EXACTLY who wants what, and in this thread I'm not going to get into much detail about what I think and why, but my general impression is:

Plan Seele: Undo Lilith's "fallen" state and resurrect her into a new god that will purify humanity and the world of original sin. (This involves gifting humanity with the Fruit of Life, and possibly recreating them as a race of gods with both fruits, each individual god its own colony of complemented individuals.)
Plan Gendo: Create a perfect seven-part god and use its power to unite the lost pre-Lilin civilization (which Seele are relics of) with the Lilin, purify both of original sin, and rebirth them as a new, third race upon a purified world. Further details unclear.


(EDIT 8/9: Found some new stuff in the past couple of days and I am completely overhauling my thought process here, so disregard above. Seele's plan is completely wrong and Gendo's is missing something huge.)

Gendo's goals (according to the very tentative speculation here) have a sort of vague correspondence to Nemo's motivations. Nemo had no particular investment in seeing Atlantis rise again and take back control over their engineered human slaves. He was fine with the remaining Atlanteans being absorbed into the human population and allowing humans to inherit the world and find their own way. What the two men might have in common, then, is a forward-looking attitude. Don't dwell upon the past and seek to dominate; unite and build a new future. (According to this model, Gendo's conflict with Wille would be an "ends justify the means" situation, and entirely temporary.)

Gargoyle wants nothing more than a return to the past. He wants humanity to be judged for their misdeeds and repent in servitude to their Atlantean masters, where they belong. He wants Atlantis's technological, cultural, and military might to be restored. And he wants to be in charge of it all. So with the appearance of that weird mirrored Seele symbol, and the preexisting indications that Fuyutsuki was going to embrace his inner Gargoyle, allow me to suggest the following...

Fuyutsuki's true sympathies may not lie with Lilin at all, but with the race that preceded them (the "PLC"). (I am still working on my analysis about this civilization's presence in NTE over here, but just the first section alone makes it pretty obvious that something funky is going on.) Like Seele themselves quite possibly do, he sees Lilin merely as a means to an end. But unlike Seele, he doesn't want a purified world populated with gods; he wants a sinful and chaotic world that has people (presumably "normal, non-Instrumentalized people") in it. He wants to go back to the days before the PLC destroyed themselves (via First Impact, presumably). So, his ideals don't represent Seele as they were, but are in favor of the people they supposedly represent, and thus Fuyutsuki adopts their symbol with some minor but far-reaching alterations.

this part makes no sense but I'm leaving it  SPOILER: Show
I have more about this coming up in the deeplore thread, but for a bit of a teaser... Fuyutsuki brusquely comments "What a complete mess; this is nearly what Seele wanted" in juxtaposition with this visual.

Image

The Black Moon tipped over, with its contents -- the Failures of Infinity -- spilling onto the ground. The Black Moon is in some sense the Holy Grail, and so the Failures that emerge from it are an attempt to shape a humanity purified of sin from the blood of "Jesus" (Lilith), but it's more than that. Eva-01, who is tightly bound to Lilith, is the Whore of Babylon, and this Biblical figure carries a "golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". Filthiness of her fornication = countless Eva-01 copies that are considered 'failures', you can maybe see where this is going. When the goblet spills, all that delightful filthiness goes everything. What I am suggesting here is that the movie is engaging in a bit of misdirection. The goblet spilling its abominations unto the world isn't actually the thing he has a problem with -- remember that Seele getting their way presumably wouldn't have resulted in such an outcome... But this is something that Fuyutsuki is okay with, and that all I'll say about that for now.


One question all of this brings to my mind is: if any of this is true, what is Fuyutsuki? Is he a self-loathing Lilin? Or is he something else? There's nothing saying that the part of Gargoyle's story where he falsely believes he's an Atlantean can't be subverted. And we don't exactly know enough about NTE's backstory to say that a PLC surviving to the present day, without the use of core-tech, is impossible. This has the potential to get quite silly (arguably this post has already jumped the shark), but consider: Gargoyle wears a mask for almost the entirety of Nadia, and we only see his face as he dies. What if Fuyutsuki has been wearing a mask this entire time -- in other words, disguising his true appearance?

I'm just going to go into full galaxy brain territory here, mostly because I think it's fun, plus in the amazing event that I end up being right I get the dubious honor of bragging rights. So, here goes. One cool thing I discovered -- which I had been planning on debuting in a much less stupid context, but oh well -- is that the skulls inside the Seele slabs are NOT those of Lilin.

Image Image

They are creepy motherfuckers whose faces are way too long proportionately, making them look like General Grievous, and -- perhaps more relevantly -- like the 8th Angel. Also, each member of Seele is actually two conjoined heads, bringing to mind the god Janus (easy to see the relevance there) and the 7th Angel in turn, and also evoking Aristophanes's back-to-back androgyne (suggesting that each Seele slab might have originally been two people who transformed themselves via core-tech together, and maybe Seele's membership is even half female now, they just use male Lilin voices because they know Lilin find DEEP more impressive). Really, it would take one long and super-detailed post to unpack everything that's going on here, and I'm not going to do that in this particular thread, so let me just get to the galaxy brain part.

Image

The similarities between the Seele skulls and the 8th Angel's head should be obvious enough to not require further detailing. (Why this similarity might exist is... something I will talk about somewhere else, eventually.) And now look again at "evil Fuyutsuki" from the trailer. With the sheer amount of visual storytelling that's accomplished in these films, it feels like there is something a wee bit fishy -- or birdy, perhaps -- going on here. Look at the area around his mouth, for example. It's doing that "double-triangle" thing that the bottom of the 8th Angel's beak is. His nose and the way it's lengthened with the shadow creates the impression of a long line, like the nose stripe. And of course his eyes are made to look like big empty sockets.

This could potentially take on additional layers of meaning. This allusion to the 8th Angel could play out in a way with Fuyutsuki being, in a sense, an 8th member of Seele, who has deposed the previous seven and replaced their flawed sense of vision with his own. Incidentally, the number "8" is Biblical numerology means revival or resurrection -- and while I think this means more than one thing in the 8th Angel's case, the tie-in with Fuyutsuki could refer to his desire for the restoration of the pre-Lilin civilization. More fun yet, the 8th Angel's design partly alludes to the Merkabah (including its ophanim-style halos), i.e., the majority of the Angel can be read as a "chariot" for the throne of God -- with God being the humanoid being that emerges from the center.

Somebody else who considers himself God?

Gargoyle, that's who.  SPOILER: Show
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We can get even more galaxy-brained with this if we want to. Look how the conspiracy deepens!!!

SPOILER: Show
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So, yes! Fuyutsuki is secretly a Chozo who wants to see the return of the mighty Chozo Empire on Earth. Wouldn't that be amazing? :w00t:

(Assuming I get around to posting the rest of what I planned for this thread, hopefully the rest won't be quite as batshit insane.)
Last edited by Reichu on Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Response to Shun's edits. Added disclaimer about Seele and Gendo's goals.
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Shun » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:14 am

From here: thread/15107/Lamp-Festival-with-Anno-drawings/200/#p896302

Ok, I have read both posts! :w00t:
The plot twist would be really intriguing, the parallels you propose are detailed. The recurring motif of the grid, the very likely bye-bye of Gendo, "Take care of the rest, Fuyutsuki-sensei" and the modification of the Atlantis / Seele symbol by Gargoyle / Fuyutsuki, are all elements that you have coherently combined. Consequently, speculation on Fuyutsuki's true motives is also possible, his "sinful world of life" would be that of the PLC, a brilliant past.

However, I have doubts. If I understand correctly the plans would be these:
Seele: Using Lilith to purify the world and the Lilins of original sin, each human becomes a singular god, an Infinity in himself.
-> desired goal of the transhuman god -> perfect future world
Gendo: using the 7-part god to purify the world and the Lilins from original sin, create the third new race (TNR) that will succeed the PLCs and Lilins in the world of harmony. Thrice upon humanity.
-> hopeful goal of the utopian world -> perfect present world
Fuyutsuki: doesn't want divinity, doesn't want to purify the Lilin, doesn't want the world of harmony. He wants to restore the ancient world of PLCs and bring the Lilins to life in this society.
-> nostalgic goal of the ancient world -> imperfect past world

In 3.0 Fuyutuski says: "My role of father is completely unpleasant. Yui ... this is fine." Kozo had asked Gendo if it wasn't better for Shinji to know something, Gendo had refused this option and Kozo chose to reveal somethings to Shinji. What I see is that Kozo takes on a responsibility that Gendo doesn't want or cannot take on his shoulders: to dialogue with Shinji, without using him only as an object for his own purposes. Gendo lets him do it, because he is unable to do it alone. However, play the role of father and revealing all those creepy things about Yui and Rei to Shinji is heartbreaking, Fuyutsuki says, and this makes us understand that he is a person with a heart.
In 2.0 and 3.0 Gendo thinks about Yui, and also Kozo mentions her. I don't want to use NGE to support Kozo's romantic interest in Yui, we don't know if there is something like this in NTE, but for the moment there still seems to be a feeling of respect and friendship. This makes me think of a deal and plan developed by three people: Yui, Gendo and Kozo.
In NGE Yui wants Ark-01 to save humanity from the LCL Sea (ep.21 + EoE), Fuyutsuki accepts this plan because he doesn't want the purification coveted by Seele (ep.12 + EoE), and Gendo pursues the same the goal not so much for humanity, but to reunite with Yui and give peace to all human souls / hearts / minds (ep.12 + ep.21 + ep.24 + EoE). The plan is the same, but it is lived in three different ways, with different motivations and hopes. Yui does it for Shinji and for humanity, Kozo does it out of devotion to Yui and for humanity, Gendo does it to rejoin Yui and to eliminate suffering. Something like this:
Yui = 100% to save Shinji and humanity
Kozo = 50% humanity (ep.12) + 50% devotion to Yui (ep21 + EoE)
Gendo = 15% humanity (ep24 + EoE) + 70% Yui (EoE) + 15% purification and union of souls (ep12 + EoE)
Seele = 100% purification and union of souls

At this point I wonder: in NTE is it more likely a shared plan (Yui + Gendo + Kozo), or three different plans (Yui vs Gendo vs Kozo)? The shared plan for now seems to me the most likely, despite your Fuyutsuki-Gargoyle theory it's intriguing. In order for your proposal to occur I think one of these possibilities must be realized:
* Fuyutsuki has a romantic interest about Yui, and wants to take Gendo's place alongside her. He thinks his plan is better than Gendo's and more in line with Yui's ideas. Or something like that.
* Fuyutsuki doesn't have a romantic interest about Yui, but has a sexual interest in her. The professor isn't a good person, he is a perverted and double-faced man. He wants to restore the ancient world and has chosen Yui (or her clone Rei) as a partner.
* Fuyutsuki has no romantic interest about Yui, he's a heartless Lilin (or pre-Lilin), he's only interested about restoring the ancient world. Gendo, Yui and all others just tools to achieve his goal.

So, your hypothesis is an unexpected nice twist, but for the moment I think there is a main piece of the puzzle that varies with too many degrees of freedom to be able to decide with greater certainty. What is the relationship between Fuyutsuki and Yui in NTE? How does Fuyutsuki feel for her? Yui has a plan like in NGE, or not? Is the Yui's plan shared by Gendo and Kozo or not? :| ?!

Moreover, there is also another point to consider: in Avant1 Ritsuko says that the deputy commander is testing them. How does she know? It can't be a news, so it must be a situation that Wille has faced before. Perhaps when the Near-3rd Impact starts and in other cases, e.g. Nemesis series. This means that Ritsuko has known for a long time that Fuyutsuki is the arm, while Gendo is the mind. This isn't a news. In this sense, I support the idea that Marks 10-11-12 are sent by Fuyutsuki as intermediate opponents to disturb other plans of Wille, or more likely as final bosses when Gendo starts the Final Impact. But, as I said, for the moment I don't think that Fuyutsuki wants ​​betray Gendo. The inversion of the Seele symbol, if it were to be really present in the film, can also have a different explanation: now Seele is out, so Nerv - Gendo & Kozo - exploits their Adam's Vessels (Marks). Funny or scary thing: Fuyutsuki changed the symbol by himself with brush and blowtorch? Or does Nerv have automated machines that do these things? Or are there any clones of Rei used as slaves? :bigeyes:

Finally, there is a metanarrative point. Anno had declared in CRC 2.0 that he had chosen to cut adult scenes, and in fact in NTE there aren't many adult scenes like in NGE, for example ep7, ep13, ep15, ep21. This makes me think that the Fuyutsuki betrayal hypothesis is less likely, although it is an intriguing plot twist. Anno will focus more on Gendo-Shinji-Misato as the main characters, while Ritsuko-Fuyutsuki will be the "secondary" characters who will face off as deputy commanders. If Fuyutsuki were to betray Gendo, this would give too much importance to his character, an importance too oriented to the sci-fi scenario and less to the message, that is, to the father-son relationship between Gendo and Shinji.
If Fuyutsuki betray Gendo, then he becomes the main villain, while Gendo becomes the victim of a trap.
If instead Fuyutsuki just follows the orders, Gendo doesn't become a victim of a trap, and consequently the Shinji/Gendo confrontation isn't resized.
Shinji vs Gendo has been shown to us since 1.0, so this must be the focus. Vice versa Avant1 already prefigures the role of Fuyutsuki as an opponent of Ritsuko. Interestingly, in Avant1 Misato is on the Wunder, in the sky, while Ritsuko is on the ground where the battle takes place. It's a pattern similar to Gendo and Fuyutsuki. Gendo isn't mentioned, he isn't the direct responsible of the battle, he is the mind that is thinking about the sky Guf, and he is therefore the opponent of Misato and then of Shinji. Fuyutsuki plays to shogi against Ritsuko, using, as you mentioned, the three pieces he didn't use in 3.0: Golden General, Silver General and Tower.
Fuyutsuki talking about the brilliant world of PLCs is closer to Nadia's scenario than to Evangelion's. In Nadia the narrative, the sci-fi elements and the message work together explicitly, while in Evangelion the sci-fi elements work in the background implicitly, and the narrative tends to be a theater in which the protagonists are the metaphorical plane and the message. The comparison must therefore be conceptual and metaphorical, not sci-fi and narrative. The LCL Sea in EoE is a narrative element related to Lilith, Adam and the primordial dimension of life, and it's an element that refers to mythology (the primordial sea), to religion (Brahman) and to psychoanalysis (the collective unconscious), but its function in the film is very conceptual and metaphorical than narrative.
In fact Anno didn't tell us much about that place. He used the LCL Sea to convey the concepts against which Shinji and the viewer must confront to decide whether to cancel the dream or not.

For these reasons I think Shin's climax should be Gendo's goal, not Fuyutsuki's plot twist.
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:36 am

@Shun: Many thanks for taking a look! You bring up some great points, and I definitely need to investigate further, just in case there's anything to be found. (You made your edits surreptitiously while I was composing this post, so this post only refers to what you originally wrote.)

Yui is somewhat inscrutable in NGE, and to this day there isn't a consensus on what her actual plans consisted of. With NTE so far giving us even less information about her directly, I don't feel especially good about our prospects -- as fans trying to anticipate the direction this will go -- right now.

There are some possible avenues of exploration that I see. One involves the idea that Yui herself is an artificial being and/or is some kind of "demi-Lilin" herself. The first bit of evidence for this is her name; there is something strange going on with the -namis, and Yui is the first of them (Yui Ayanami). There's a little more about this here. The second piece of evidence is Yui's experiment. First there is the fact that she is considered qualified to attempt to pilot an Eva in the first place, combined with the halo she generates while she enters the core.

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^ This was SO designed by Mahiro Maeda. :tongue:
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As per my arguments in another thread, the eventual five main Eva pilots we get are artificial beings with some kind of direct link to the beings they bond with. Their existence does not exclude the possibility of other "transitional" beings being created before them, however. In fact, it would make more sense if the technology used to create the pilots didn't come out of nowhere, but was gradually refined over time, via successive experiments involving Lilin.

Yui's halo does seem as though it is being generated with the assistance of the equipment she's wearing: between the two images I've provided above, her "crown of thorns" (Eva using that particular Jesus imagery was going to happen sooner or later, eh?) can be seen to have twelve spikes on it altogether, and the halo appears to have twelve trailing lines under it as well. However, it's important to consider the possibility that Yui can only use this technology to generate a halo because there is something special about her in the first place. The pilots provide an analogy: they use technology to pilot the Evas, but not just anyone would be able to hop into the plug and do what they do. The halo becomes even more interesting because, short of perhaps the giant sealing pillar, we never see another example of a halo being technologically generated. Even entities that you'd think should be able to manifest them, like Shinji when he's turning into energy, or Kaworu period, never do. (Eva-01's halo in fact comes from Yui's presence and not Shinji's, as proven by the Wunder generating two halos without Shinji being present in Eva-01. The first comes from Yui, the second from Rei.) Something strange is going on.

The weirdness deepens further:

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- Eva-01 is being compared to Nadia's Adam. Both giant artificial humans. Adam was created is by an ancient civilization, and chances seem quite high that Eva-01 was as well (though it wouldn't have been called "Eva-01" back then).
- There is a mysterious sculpture in episode 8 of Nadia that has the same "crossed arms" pose as Adam. I'm not sure what the sculpture specifically represents, but it's used as an example of Atlantean art, if nothing else. Another "giant being" + "creation of ancient civilization" association.
- Yui during her test is doing the "crossed arms" pose, which is... suspicious. She's further identified with Adam, however subtly, by the fact that she's flanked by rings from above (halo) and below (circular platform).
- Eva-13 is cross-referenced with both Yui (crossed arms + devices with red circles and triangles on wrists) and with Nadia's Adam and mysterious sculpture of a giant. The Nadia references feel straightforward enough: as with Eva-01 being compared to Adam, Eva-13 is implied to hail from an ancient technological past. The Yui reference is rather boggling to me. She obviously isn't in Eva-13, since we know she's still inside Eva-01, so the best guess I have is that some kind of analogy is being made in terms of core-based technology -- this is something I would have to unpack elsewhere. But in any case, Yui is being compared to a technological monstrosity that she doesn't seem to have a DIRECT connection to, which is quite interesting.

tl;dr: Yui, for some reason or another, is being visually associated with creations of an ancient civilization (Atlantis from Nadia), one of them being the first human being ever made; two of the Adamsian Evas from NTE; A/angels (halo and wings); and Jesus (via her "crown of thorns"). Another bit of weirdness I could point out is that Yui is also a Virgin Mary figure, on account of being the mother of a god incarnate (Shinji).

I wish I could say I was done, but there's one more thing. Kudos to UrsusArctos for noticing this.

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Compositionally, it looks a bit like a cross-shaped horn is emerging from Yui's forehead. The "horn" aspect brings to mind Eva-01, of course, but what about the "cross" aspect? In NTE, crosses are often associated with control / restraint, or with divinity. Here, it could easily be both. The cross symbolically piercing her forehead suggests that Yui's "third eye", as it were, is normally closed, and under certain circumstances her potential can be unleashed. Think of the Topless from Gunbuster 2, who normally wear a seal over a specific spot on their forehead, and rip it off in order to release their psychic powers. In this case, the "Crown of Thorns", along with perhaps other elements of Yui's get-up such as the wings, unlock Yui's abilities. They figuratively remove the cross-seal from her third eye and let her potential express itself. Yui's "Topless" status enables her, then, to interface with a core, which in turn enables her to merge with Eva-01.

Yui may not be the only "enhanced human" (outside of the main pilot quintet), either. Addressing that bit of weirdness is part of my substantial backlog. It's hard to understate just how weird these movies are, along with the sheer exuberance with which they embrace "leaning hard on NGE while fearlessly diverging from NGE".

The implications here that both Yui and Fuyutsuki have statuses that are significantly altered from NGE make it profoundly difficult to rely upon NGE in any appreciable way for guidance. (About the extent of its usefulness is "check and see if any of the original NGE scheme can be confirmed to exist in some way in NTE, if possible".) Absolutely nothing can be taken for granted.

EDIT: I'm not sure I can agree with the main thrust of your "metanarrative" argument. Anno has made NTE much more similar to Nadia than NGE ever was in countless ways, but, in terms of what you're saying, he's using the pilots to link the distant past with the present day. Similar to how Nadia's Atlantean heritage eventually needed to be discussed in her show, so too will the connection between the pilots and Gods of Old -- it would make little sense to leave something so important about the young leads 100% implied. The utility of "Gargutsuki" here is that he will force the point; he will make that ancient past matter in a completely unavoidable way to the present. You express doubts about the past mattering to the present, but Gendo chose to have a son who is the embodiment of an ancient god. Everything is connected; everything matters. The truth of the past cannot be escaped.

Many of your points are based on incredibly specific assumptions about the implementation of "Gargutsuki". My argument is basically just that 'this is a thing that will exist', not 'it will take up x% of the film's runtime' and so on. So it's difficult for me to argue against many of these -- I'm in essence arguing against your own very delicately nuanced perception of how the movie should happen, not defending claims I myself have made, which frames the discussion in a way I would prefer to avoid if possible. :tongue: But suffice it to say, NTE has never needed to "focus" much on the people actually driving the plot. This has been the case from the very start, and Q takes it to the next level. (Shinji is the focus of Q, but almost everything that happens in the film is completely beyond his understanding or control.) Anno is a master of doing an incredible amount with very little. Consider how in NGE, Yui is the master driver of the actual plot, and she has an incredibly limited number of 'actual lines' and otherwise acts upon the plot through "mecha action" and the like. I have no doubt whatsoever about Anno's ability to pull off what I've suggested.

I actually do think that the "climax" of the movie will be the realization of Gendo's goal. (The main thesis of my "deep lore" thread is the same as my guess regarding Gendo's end game for a reason!) The "twist" involving Fuyutsuki would emerge much earlier in the film -- see also the arrangement of cuts in trailer #2, and the placement of Gendo & Eva-13 vs. "evil Fuyutsuki" & Rei. As I believe I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, Fuyutsuki emerging as a common threat to both Gendo and Wille would provide an ideal set-up for the reconciliation of Gendo and Shinji. In other words, "Gargutsuki" would play directly into the emotional core of the film series, not away from it.

Gendo has been a brutally abusive father, creating Shinji for the entire purpose of manipulating him as part of a master plan, and these manipulations include things like 'brainwashing' and memory erasure. What poetic justice, then, if Gendo himself just ended up being a piece on Fuyutsuki's game board, and Shinji were in a possible position to help his father? Gendo would finally understand what he had put Shinji through. This could also be a double whammy whereby Gendo experiences Rei's suffering, as well. Check it out:

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Now, the fact that these images were displayed publicly at the khara expo probably means this exact idea won't be in the film, but it could nonetheless hint at part of the creative team's overall thought process. Eva-13 is in bondage. There's a device resembling part of the components to Rei's special facility, and the probes from this thing are literally piercing 13's head. (You can see them emerging out the other side.) This brings to mind Rei Q's use of the special facility. She implies that she gets her orders from Seele through that device, i.e., commands are implanted directly into her brain. So what's being implied in this concept art is that Eva-13 is getting directives implanted straight into its head. Interestingly, part of this involves its eyes being gouged out. In the final movie, I would honestly not be surprised to see post-Gendo Eva-13 formally crucified onto the old control system (it's a big red cross, after all) and mutilated (mostly off-screen) in interesting ways. It would also be neat to see some form of brainwashing technology used on Eva-13, for the "poetic justice" reasons I've mentioned.

To bring this back round to the Gendo/Fuyutsuki issue, let me paste in something I wrote elsewhere (as part of a conversation):

It was suggested to me that Mk.10 would be eyeless (so the X actually just opens up into a horrific maw), which could tie into it having an "anti-Seele" mark for a "third eye". The mark in some sense could represent the agenda / "vision" of Fuyutsuki (it's totally going to be him), and the message here is that the only "eyes" his servants get are the ones he provides -- they "see" only in terms of Fuyu's goals. This sort of imagery has been used before -- Lilith's real eyes getting gauged out with bolts that have the Seele mark on the bolt head, for instance. The 3rd Angel getting most of its soft tissues stripped off, including the eyes; it too has a Seele mark where a "third eye" would be, meaning it directly anticipates Mk.10.

In simple symbolic terms, eyelessness = blindness = being forced to follow a path set by someone else. Lilith has no eyes; she's just part of The Plan and has no agency of her own. The 04 series have no heads, therefore no eyes; they appear to be controlled by Fuyutsuki. Likewise with the Failures. They don't do anything; they're either frozen or drift around aimlessly in the "orbit" of the Black Moon. The 3rd Angel has no eyes; it's violated with a "pseudo entry plug", likely a predecessor to the Seele Program tech. The 12th Angel has no eyes, not even when it becomes a giant head; heavily implied that it was loaded with a Seele Program in the past; no agency of its own. (In connection with this, the 12th Angel is visually revealed to us by showing it eat through 06's eyes. Gross.) Seele have no eyes (even the skulls inside their monoliths just have empty eye sockets); they follow those scrolls which came from who knows where (I used to think Seele wrote them, but now I think they "received" them somehow) and who knows if they actually think for themselves; they were also "blind" in that they let themselves be killed off by traitors.

Gendo's eyes are covered with a visor, and we don't know if he has any real ones left underneath. It's super heavily foreshadowed that he's going to sacrifice himself and become part of Eva-13. No more agency. (The Eva will need to be kept in a state of careful control because Gendo won't be the only soul in there and there's no guarantee he can establish dominance or anything.) This will be even better if Fuyutsuki gouges out Eva-13's eyes, which would both acknowledge the fact that Eva-13 is currently Lilith's resurrected body, and make it gruesomely clear that Gendo is completely under Fuyutsuki's thumb.


(Also, in the same way that the coreification of Earth relates heavily to human-caused environmental disaster, the entire situation I describe, with backward-looking leadership displacing its forward-looking counterpart, is brutally topical. Merging Fuyutsuki, who is a sort of "memetic loser' in NGE, with an over-the-top fascist despot like Gargoyle provides a pretty damn good way to provide meta references, great entertainment, and social commentary at the same time. I would honestly be disappointed if this ideal opportunity weren't seized with both hands.)

I will respond further to Shun later, but first... sleep.
Last edited by Reichu on Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Added responses to Shun's edits
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Shun » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:57 am

As for Yui and the Eva-13 concept art, I have nothing to say, your speech is very convincing.

As you said, could be a parallelism with Nadia: Yui / Nemo's wife, Gendo king of Lilin / Nemo king of Tartessos, Fuyutsuki-deputy commander / Gargoyle deputy minister of Tartessos. Also, as you have suggested, unlike Nadia, where Nemo is an Atlantean and Gargoyle is a human, in NTE the opposite could happen, with Gendo human and Fuyutsuki alien. But Anno has already done the fascist Ku Klux Klan in Nadia, the betrayals in Nadia and NGE, and the Wille rebellion in NTE, so will he really do something like that in NTE? It is true that the betrayal of the calm and elderly Mr. Fuyutsuki would be unexpected, but I think that it's nothing new.

In reality, even your approach is not without nuanced forcing. "This thing will exist."
My speech on "Gargutsuki" wanted to underline that "this thing will exist" that you apply to "Gargutsuki" is subjective, it is an intuition, but the necessary and sufficient condition to make it objective is missing. Maybe I was too hasty, so I'll explain better.
* X is a sufficient condition for "Gargutsuki": if X is true, then "Gargutsuki" is true. If X is false, "Gargutsuki" may still be true due to other sufficient conditions Y or Z.
* X is a necessary condition for "Gargutsuki": only if X is true, "Gargutsuki" is true. If X is false, "Gargutsuki" cannot be true.
* X is a necessary and sufficient condition for "Gargutsuki": if and only if X is true, "Gargutsuki" is true.

My proposals are examples of sufficient conditions that NTE should show to make "Gargutsuki" true.
If Fuyutsuki has a romantic interest about Yui, that would be reason enough to betray Gendo. Similarly, if Fuyutsuki thinks the ancient PLC world was brilliant, then this would be reason enough to betray Gendo. In your speech, however, this sufficient motivation is lacking, which is why I wrote that there are too many degrees of freedom at the base.
Fuyutsuki's romantic interest about Yui isn't made very explicit by the show, there is only one line in 3.0 "Yui ... this is fine" and a photo. Consequently, using these elements as sufficient a priori conditions depends on us, it is our deliberate choice. We can speculate that Fuyutsuki has Yui's photo because he felt (and still feels) a romantic interest in her, so he's willing to play the unpleasant role, but that's our guess.
Similarly, Fuyutsuki's interest in the ancient world of PLCs is not made very explicit by the show, there is only the line in 2.0 on the "imperfect world". Consequently, using this element as a sufficient a priori condition depends on us, it is our deliberate choice. We can speculate that Fuyutsuki said he prefers the "imperfect world" because he referred to the ancient world, but it is simply our guess.
At this moment, that is a priori, the two conditions (romantic interest and imperfect world) are not objectively sufficient conditions, but they could be such a posteriori, that is, with the further elements of Shin Eva. In fact, at this moment Fuyutsuki's hypothetical romantic interest in Yui could also be used as a sufficient condition to support the idea that Fuyutsuki participates in the shared plan despite his role being secondary. He does it out of devotion.

The same thing goes for all the other things you brought. You can choose to use them as sufficient conditions a priori, or not. But for the moment it is not an objective decision.
Does the grid motif lead us to Fuyutsuki? Does the eye motif lead us to Gargoyle and therefore to Fuyutsuki's betrayal? Gendo with the viewer leads us to Keel who is betrayed? These are all elements that I find intriguing and intuitively plausible, however I can't help but wonder: are they enough? Is this the best chance? But what if the opposite happened this time? What if Gargoyle wasn't a traitor this time? What if Keel wasn't betrayed this time?

Beyond that, I am reluctant to fully embrace the theories, not just those of others, but mine as well, because I wish Anno would do something incredible and surprising. :w00t:

However, I suggest two other points to consider:
* Nemo's wife sacrifices the souls of all the Atlanteans to save Jean. Yui could go against Gendo and Fuyutsuki, to give Shinji the power to decide what to do. Which is the same thing that happens in EoE when Yui asks Shinji "what do you wish?"
* In Nausicaa's manga the Ancients had devised a plan to come back to life after the world was restored. In NTE, First Impact, Second Impact and Near Third Impact could be three equivalents of Nausicaa's Seven Days of Fire. Following the parallelism we can think of three groups that would like to live after the Impact: the ancients (Seele and Fuyutsuki?) Would like to return to live in peace after the 1st Impact destroyed their world; Yui and Gendo (and Fuyutsuki?) Would like to return to live in peace after the 2nd Impact destroyed their world; Wille would like to return to live in peace after Near-3rd and 4th Impact have destroyed their world. Thrice upon a time?
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:21 pm

The conjoined heads thing inside the Eva monoliths is just truly creepy. I never doubted those would be normal human heads (one in each).
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:55 am

@Shun: I appreciate you taking the time to type your thoughts out! You've given me a number of things to consider that I might have otherwise overlooked. Over the past couple of days, I was prompted to start feverishly reevaluating many of my ideas, which resulted in some pretty incredible finds that I'm still mulling over. They change so much that I was immediately forced to abandon both of my tentative guesses for Seele's and Gendo's plans. (I got Seele's completely wrong, and Gendo's is only sort of on the right track.) Much of this material is incredibly relevant to the Gendo-Fuyutsuki-Yui issue and, if I'm lucky and don't get immediately sidetracked by something else :sweatdrop:, I'm going to try to compile the biggest items into a post. The next week or so should be intense. So again, thank you for giving me that push. :D

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:The conjoined heads thing inside the Eva monoliths is just truly creepy. I never doubted those would be normal human heads (one in each).

I thought the same thing when I first put together the relevant posts in my "Deep Lore" thread. Then one day I dragged the Seele head we can see most clearly into Photoshop and I ran it through a bunch of filters to bring the most detail out, and it was pretty much "WELP! SO MUCH FOR SLEEPING TONIGHT". It's not just the fact that they're conjoined heads that's messed up, it's that they're not human (or not Lilin, anyway). The proportions are completely off. :cringe: I'm still trying to figure out what to even call their species that sounds appropriately cool/ominous. Anunnaki?

The amount of detail in these movies is insane. Imagine designing skulls for these pre-human entities that can barely be seen for a couple of frames at a time, and you can't even tell they're not regular humans unless you take high-resolution uncompressed frames and filter the shit out of them. Anno and his associates are absolutely nuts in the best possible way. Hopefully at some point my brain will give me enough of a goddamn break to catch up on the other thread and post a proper write-up on the Seele heads.

Apropos of nothing, here's a paint-over of creepy trailer Fuyutsuki I did just to amuse myself. Could use more work but I thought it was funny, at least.

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Last edited by Reichu on Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Minor touch-ups.
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Re: Nemesis Ra Kozo: Fuyutsuki's Possible Role in Shin

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Postby Shun » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:57 am

@Reichu: Thanks to you for the theories you invent, I wouldn't have the time, the desire and the ability to look up all the details and put them together. I write something else, maybe it could be useful.
Anno loves the Nausicaa manga very much, so there may be many elements of it in NTE, for example:

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1) Seven days of fire and God Warriors vs Second Impact and Adams.
2) God Warrior's egg vs Eva-13's egg.


Nausicaa's pattern is more or less this:
1- The Ancients: human civilization with advanced technology;
2- Divine Beings: God Warriors, gigantic technological weapons that destroy things;
3- Destructive event: the Seven Days of Fire pollute the world and destroy humanity;
4- Post-event humans: subsequent generations of humans have adapted to pollution;
5- Purification field: the Sea of ​​Corruption is an artificial thing created by the Ancients to purify the world from the pollution caused by the Seven Days of Fire;
6- Ancient project: the Ancients will be reborn when the Sea of ​​Corruption has purified the world of pollution and will replace humans.

Possible similarities in Evangelion NTE
1- * The Ancestrals: ancient pre-human civilization (like the Atlanteans in Nadia);
2- * Divine Beings: Adam, Angels, Lilith, Evangelion (?);
3- * Destructive event: First Impact, destroys the ancient civilization and change the ecosystem (pure --> polluted);
4- Post-event humans: Lilin live in a “polluted” world;
5- Destructive purification events: Impacts (2nd, 3rd, 4th), change the ecosystem of animals and Lilins (polluted --> pure);
6- Purification field: L-Field, "purifies" the Lilin's ecosystem and there could be a link between the "corrosive" effect and the Failure of Infinity;
7- Ancient project: HIP. According to Kaworu the Lilin do not change themselves but change the world with an artificial ritual, in such a way as to create a form of life that possesses the FoL. Even if souls disappear, desires and curses survive, wills will spread as information around the world and change it… one day they will end up rewriting themselves (like a VHS recorded multiple times). We will meet again, Shinji.

Are Failure of Infinity the Ancestrals ones trying to overwrite the Lilin from the past to the future? Or do the Lilins artificially modify themselves to adapt to the new world? The swarm of Failure of Infinity will unite into a single being that is an agglomeration of information, the Infinity, and after the GUFO regenerates the world (Yamato, Nausicaa) in some way (World of harmony? Ancestral Eden? Inversion entropy? Inversion of causality? Rewriting?) will this information be returned to Earth (Ideon, EoE)?

* The first three points may be different. For example, a proposal:
1- World of harmony: fruit of life and fruit of knowledge are united. Adam + Lilith = Albion.
2- The Ancestrals: ancient pre-Lilin civilization (like the Atlanteans in Nadia);
3- First Impact: breaking of Albion, separation of Adam and Lilith, destruction of the ancient civilization, change ecosystem;
4- Adam -> Angels, Lilith -> Lilin;

There seems to be a pattern to me, but you can probably modify and connect the dots better than me.

PS: Fuyutsuki's image is really scary! You should write "be careful, it can cause nightmares!"
However, my mind:
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The Ancestrals were intelligent cosmic apes, the missing link Jean talks about.


PPS: Does this post it's ok here, or in the deep lore thread?

Reichu wrote:The next few days should be intense. So again, thank you for giving me that push. :D

I'm curious! Good luck! ^_^
What is essential is invisible to the eye.


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