A thought that just crossed my mind - sine the AATF was focused on earth, what do you reckon is the limit of its reach?
I personally get a great deal of amusement out of imagining some poor sap on a moon mission seeing the mayhem unfold from afar and wondering what in the world is going on down there


Sorry if such a topic already exists, considering that "space" and "instrumentality" are both listed as "too common words", searching for it was.... mildly impossible

he would get to see quit a show

I'm currently reading Volume 6 of the manga when the S2 incident happens everything in a 49km radius was affected, so your astronaut might be presumed "safe".

@Blockio: I think that question is pretty much unanswerable, given that EoE does not once bother to let itself be concerned with physical limitations or even realistic consequences, but my guess is that poor Moon Mission Guy gets tanged like everybody else, just for thematic reasons. Other than that, Yui mentioning "the earth, moon and sun" makes me think that she and Rei operate at least at solar system scales at that point and affect the entirety of the Lilith-based ecosystem.

Uh, to get a little physics speculation in: We know that the AATF affects the whole earth. There are two distinct possibilities here: An AATF is the sign-switched counterpart of an ATF (like gravity and anti gravity). Originating from a pointlike source, it spreads omnidirectionally with decreasing strength, obeying the inverse-square law. In this case, Lilith just pumps up her AATF to the power required to cancel out all AT-Fields or make their values negative. To reach to the other side of the earth, the strength of the AATF at that point has to be strong enough to cancel out the strongest ATF present. If we set the required strength to 1, that means the strength at the origin has to be 162.358.564 times higher, given the radius of the earth of 12742km. The moon is a mean distance of 384402km away from the earth, so lets just say that thats a probable distance for a manned space mission. That means that to reach a strength of 1 at that point, the field has to be 147.764.897.604 times stronger at the origin. Dividing one by the other, that means that Rei has to make her AATF roughly 910 times stronger to reach all the way out to the moon and still tang everybody.

The other possibility is that AATF and ATF are identical in nature, with the distinction that an AATF is an ATF that causes destructive interference in other ATFs. So the wave pattern is identical but flipped: Highs become lows and vice versa, of equal but opposite strength, giving a net amplitude of zero. In this case, the AATF Rei generates does not follow the inverse square law but is fine-tuned to cause said destructive interference. 12742km vs. 384402km means that she has to reach roughly 30 times further. Sadly, this says nothing about the energy required to achieve that reach. It could very well be a linear relationship, in which case she only needs 30 times the energy to reach 30 times further.

So, your pick. Either way, Rei has to expend a lot more energy to reach further out. Mr. Tines calculated the mass of GNR at one point, but I am currently too stupid to find it. I remember she grew by about a billion times in mass. If we assume that size and power are related, GNR being able to create AT-Fields thousands of times more powerful than your average Eva is not unrealistic. She should have no problem reaching out to the moon and beyond.

Edit: Not trying to backseat mod, but just a reminder, orcot: Double posting is generally considered bad form. You can edit your post to include more information in it. You can even delete your old post and repost an updated version if you are afraid that nobody will see an edit (before a newer post is made, that is).

Derantor wrote:@Blockio: I think that question is pretty much unanswerable, given that EoE does not once bother to let itself be concerned with physical limitations or even realistic consequences, but my guess is that poor Moon Mission Guy gets tanged like everybody else, just for thematic reasons. Other than that, Yui mentioning "the earth, moon and sun" makes me think that she and Rei operate at least at solar system scales at that point and affect the entirety of the Lilith-based ecosystem.

That's a very good point with the solar system and thematic consistency

Uh, to get a little physics speculation in: We know that the AATF affects the whole earth. There are two distinct possibilities here: An AATF is the sign-switched counterpart of an ATF (like gravity and anti gravity). Originating from a pointlike source, it spreads omnidirectionally with decreasing strength, obeying the inverse-square law. In this case, Lilith just pumps up her AATF to the power required to cancel out all AT-Fields or make their values negative. To reach to the other side of the earth, the strength of the AATF at that point has to be strong enough to cancel out the strongest ATF present. If we set the required strength to 1, that means the strength at the origin has to be 162.358.564 times higher, given the radius of the earth of 12742km. The moon is a mean distance of 384402km away from the earth, so lets just say that thats a probable distance for a manned space mission. That means that to reach a strength of 1 at that point, the field has to be 147.764.897.604 times stronger at the origin. Dividing one by the other, that means that Rei has to make her AATF roughly 910 times stronger to reach all the way out to the moon and still tang everybody.

The other possibility is that AATF and ATF are identical in nature, with the distinction that an AATF is an ATF that causes destructive interference in other ATFs. So the wave pattern is identical but flipped: Highs become lows and vice versa, of equal but opposite strength, giving a net amplitude of zero. In this case, the AATF Rei generates does not follow the inverse square law but is fine-tuned to cause said destructive interference. 12742km vs. 384402km means that she has to reach roughly 30 times further. Sadly, this says nothing about the energy required to achieve that reach. It could very well be a linear relationship, in which case she only needs 30 times the energy to reach 30 times further.

I don't remember the exact point where it's said, but according to Reichu, an AATF is basically just an ATF so absurdly large that it crushes all other ATFs under it; which is, now that I think of it at a time when I'm properly awake, more evidence towards the "yeah you're fucked, too" theory, since the nominal size of it has to be so utterly massive in order to achieve this kind of brute force effect that its range probably extends out a lot

Blockio wrote:according to Reichu, an AATF is basically just an ATF so absurdly large that it crushes all other ATFs under it

Well, let me explain where that line of thought actually comes from...

First, the Classified Information doesn't even mention "AATF" by name anywhere; it says this instead.

The very limits to which an A.T. Field can expand is an ego unbound: a god. In its presence, people's egos collapse and they revert to LCL.

So it's telling you what an AATF is without saying as much. Now, given the C.I. isn't completely reliable, is there any basis upon which to reject this tidbit? IMHO, it all checks out. In the very second episode, we're shown that Evas require A.T. Fields against Angels so that they can use their own ATFs to nullify the Angels'. In other words, one A.T. Field can cancel out another. In addition, we also see in episodes 19 and 20 that Shinji's ego is completely overwhelmed by Yui's, with the result that his body is destroyed; anticipating the effects of the "Anti-A.T. Fields" showcased later:

Episode 21' wrote:WOMAN C (RADIO):
All AT Fields are being released.

[Later...]

MAN N:
Get it to use up as much of its anti-AT Field energy as possible!

[Much, much later...]

FUYUTSUKI:
The thorough extermination of all life, including microorganisms.

Episode 26' wrote:HYUGA:
Anti-A.T. Field critical limit exceeded!

AOBA:
No...! If this continues, individual life-forms
will be unable to maintain their separate entities!

For the sake of clarity: the A.T. Field is a manifestation of the "ego", or self. (This is as used by Jung, not Freud.) Even before Kaworu reveals that Lilin have ATFs as well, the show uses "ego boundary" (an actual psych term, though you might see it translated as "ego threshold" or otherwise) as what is effectively double-speak for the A.T. Field itself. Note how similar "ego boundary" is to the way Kaworu describes the A.T. Field as kokoro no kabe, "mental barrier" or "wall of the heart".

Ah, I knew I overlooked a third possibility. Well, in that case, the calculations in the first part are still the ones to use, its just a different mechanism - although I am a little stuck on working out the exact mechanism. To use another analogy, inspired by AT-Fields being "the light of the soul", it would be like shining a very strong light onto a very dim light. The dim light looks dark, but it is of course still there. Eh ... hm. Maybe the radiation pressure from the "ambient light" (GNRs ATF) is strong enough to force all other AT-Fields to collapse into a tiny dot - the soul. Not sure how to square this with the tanging process, though. Bodies do not simply disintegrate after their AT-Field is gone (no tanging upon death), so I guess they are just liquified because GNRs AT-Field is so enormously strong at that point.

I see; thanks a ton for the explanation!
But yeah, definitely makes sense

Derantor wrote:Bodies do not simply disintegrate after their AT-Field is gone (no tanging upon death), so I guess they are just liquified because GNRs AT-Field is so enormously strong at that point.

My headcanon in that regard is that upon death, the soul leaves the body naturally a bit after the body has turned into dead matter, as a fast, but still gradual process whereas Instrumentality/contact experiments/too high synch rate forcibly rip the soul out of the living body and cause it to collapse

I think a decent explanation of having some stakes in Eva, even when the soul transfers from the deceased come into play, is to have them eventually cease to be identifiable in any conventional way (but who knows, maybe Impact could affect it even after that happens). How soon and weither it depends on person or not stays unknown. Additionally, in the state when it still is identifiable, the soul has no senses: the ego still exists, but it's kind of asleep. For example, it fixes Kaworu's sacrifice for those who are bothered by him knowing he could potentially survive, but not telling anything. This system definitely could be exploited and rendered too arbitrary, but it seems to work in the context of Eva timeline, at least.