Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun May 17, 2020 12:42 am

I think you've missed one instance of the Seven Eyes of Seele : unless I'm mistaken, there are seven coffins on the moon, and the cover on each one of them is shaped like one of the eyes on the Seele symbol. Since the coffins appear to be beds or containers for Kaworu and any possible clones of him, I'd guess that Kaworu and any spare Kaworu bodies serve functionally as the "eyes of Seele", and by extension, Lilith. That would explain why Kaworu, the First Angel, is quite explicitly a Seele ally.

EDIT: Correction, there are nine coffins, not seven, which sticks a fork in that theory - but the covers do resemble the design of the Seele eye. And the Eva-06 mask has two bolt holes that resemble weeping eyes, or the bleeding eye sockets of Lilith. Adding those two eyes to the remaining seven does give nine, FWIW.

EDIT 2: We see Keel's monolith appearing in front of Kaworu with the stars as a background, and we do see Shinji gazing at the stars in 3.0. Right in the middle of Seele's logo we have "Uberm sternenzelt richtet Gott, wie wir gerichten" - which comes from the 9th symphony and means "above the canopy of stars God judges us as we judge ourselves". Especially creepy, but if Seele are a genuine ancient civilization that wiped themselves out after first impact, does this suggest that Seele's own progenitors came from beyond the stars? And with the moon developing a Lilith-like grid pattern, an atmosphere and hovering creepily close to the Earth, does this suggest that the moon was split out of the Earth by First Impact and turned into some kind of Ark/hideout for Seele in the years since while Lilin-based mankind matured?
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 17, 2020 4:31 am

Great reply, Ursus! You packed a lot into just three paragraphs and have made me even more excited about doing Part II! :heehee: In fact, you've made me so giddy that I'm going to splurge on some stuff that will invariably receive more thorough coverage later. Curse you! :nyao:

Regarding Mark.06's mask, I had made some of the connections you mention -- see here this crude but effective image I prepared ahead of time:

SPOILER: Show
Image


(The idea here being that Mark.06, as the original vessel for the True Evangelion, was supposed to eventually be "completed" by Lilith, and thus details from Lilith's mask/face can be transposed on 06's mask to acquire a greater whole. I thought the "Seven Eyes x3" was an interesting detail -- "Triple 7", and all. The triangle also becomes a vessel that merges the two streams of tears together, which... doesn't remind me of anything of all, nope...)

SPOILER: Show
Image
The half that emerges from Mark.06's head represents the Fruit of Life, and the half that emerges from the body represents the Fruit of Knowledge. You'd think it would be the other way around, but these movies are fucking weird. The "triangle=vessel" in this case would be, presumably, Mark.06, whose restraints are reduced to nothing MORE than a vessel for containing the fused product of the Eva and an Angel.

I'm sure there's at least one other possible reading of "triangle acting as vessel/vehicle to merge 2 into 1 or split 1 into 2" that I'm missing here. Knowing Anno, there's going to be at least four possible ways to read the iconography...

EDIT: One of these is "triangle ?plus extension under it?" are read as "goblet", hence "Holy Grail collecting blood of God".


I somehow hadn't managed to notice the "nine eyes" part, which is incredibly interesting. That solidifies a connection between Mark.06 and Mark.09 further... "9" being an upside-down "6" always implied there was something weird going on, and I have evidence that Mark.06 was supposed to be the receptacle for Lilith's soul before the Ikaris fucked that up. (The topic deserves an entire post, but a hint for now: What happens when Eva-01 merges with Lilith's soul? She gets a third eye. Mark.06's helmet has an empty socket for a third eye between the two horns!) As per the analysis post previously linked, Mark.09 would take on this function for Fourth Impact. And the stuff about nine eyes / nine coffins and a link to Kaworu is especially tasty, considering something I'm ashamed I did not notice until just the other day.

SPOILER: Show
Image


I finally, FINALLY realized that these two shots are linked. Much as Gendo's fate is being foreshadowed by having him stand between Eva-13's splayed legs like that, Kaworu's origins are being hinted at by having him emerge from something that's positioned right between Mark.06's splayed legs at the end of a trail of blood. You know how I've been saying for years and years that Kaworu in NGE was created by Adam being literally impregnated? Yeahhhh... I'm getting the weird feeling that not only was I right, but Anno brought that back and has made Mark.06 Kaworu's literal mother. Which means that, in an unforeseen twist, Kaworu IS actually piloting his mother at the end of Eva 2.0. Even more bizarre, his mother is, in a sense, MARI!!! (Which, uh... The two characters get identified with one another a few times, so I guess it didn't exactly come out of nowhere...) There is so much more weirdness about this, and since I just found it the other day I've barely been able to process it, so suffice it to say there will be an analysis post later that will be much more systematic than the mess here.

(EDIT1: OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT! I just looked up Tharmas again for the hell of it, and guess what? Tharmas is the begetter of Los! Who is Los? The fallen form of Urthona! :bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes: )

EDIT2: Ursus, you brilliant scamp! BB and I have been screwing around with possibilities for what those various Kaworus could have been used for, and it's getting incredibly weird very quickly. Nine Kaworus -- does that make you think of anything? MP Evas! Now I'm not saying that NTE Kaworu is being used to consistently create something like the Dummy System -- though one of those bodies probably DID get used for the Eva-01 "DMYSYS" -- but what if all nine Kaworus turn out to have something to do with Eva control systems? Here's a possible distribution (not meant to be a 1:1 match by any means, just used to provide a spread for core-tech that the clones could have gotten "sacrificed" to):

SPOILER: Show
Image
(Yes, I know we don't know if 07 was a "Mark", or what it looked like, but I'm having fun and I don't care. :nyao:


It's a humble beginning but I'm hoping for good things. [/end EDIT 2]

I think the most important instance of the Seven Eyes that I left out is the Third Angel. Anno's pedantry being in complete fucking overdrive for these movies, you bet your ass that this is significant, and there is far more to the first scene of Eva 2.0 than any of us could have imagined at first glance. ("AT THE VERY BEGINNING", the title of the background music taunted the viewers...) I'll cover this at some point in Part II. Super excited.

Thanks for bringing up the quote written on the monoliths. I've been trying to figure out where that figures into things... The monolith appearing against the backdrop of stars is a good observation, and it's entirely possible that Seele's race truly is equivalent to the Atlanteans and didn't originate on Earth. Something that makes this a bit confusing, however, is that the monoliths say that GOD is beyond the stars, not themselves. The beings they refer to as God are Lilith and Kaworu. (The latter calls himself "the First Angel" but scanners don't pick him up as such, and there is probably something fishy going on; I'll be revising my ideas about the identity of "Adam" somewhere in Part II.) They, of course, are not beyond the stars, but right on Earth. :chinscratch: These contradictions make interpretation a bit difficult -- for me, anyway.
(This reminds me, incidentally, that one of the Bible quotes with a "seven" mention "seven stars" -- I wonder if that applies anywhere.)

As for the moon, its significance is foreshadowed on Mark.06's mask, and I'm sure there's a breakthrough to be made there, as the mask and iconography of Mark.06 in general has turned out to be far, far richer than I ever imagined. (My upcoming Mark.06 post is going to be huge.) I've had some weird thoughts about the Moon myself, some of which faintly echo things you've said. At the moment, I doubt that the Moon was split out by First Impact, but given how very, very little is known about the ancient past, I don't suppose it can be completely ruled out, either. (However, the extremeness of that level of catastrophe does make a continuous timeline far more difficult to justify, as there are far more elements in NTE linking past and present than in NGE that would need to survive a planet-melting disaster. So, I find it simpler to by default NOT assume the creation of the Moon is part of First Impact. But I admit, you've got me curious now and I'll definitely test the idea further.)
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Rei IV » Sun May 17, 2020 7:42 pm

Lilith's bolted eyes and Giant Naked Rei's bloody ones was something I never would've in millions years connected or even noticed, even though it makes total sense and kinda obvious when you realize during her awakening, the bolts would've come off with bloody results. All of this is fascinating analysis and I hope some of this lore is/will be canon, at least some variation of it, in 3.0+1.0 but unfortunately unlike NGE, were limited in terms of information/knowledge in the NTE continuity, therefor, one must strain themselves to make sense out of this clusterfuck. The lack of a Complete Records for 3.0 is also frustrating given it's been almost 8 years

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 17, 2020 9:54 pm

Heh, I find it amusing that you specifically name Lilith's eyes being gouged out for its interest -- that's something I first posted many years back, so of course a part of me is thinking, "All this new stuff I only just put together, and Rei IV likes the thing that I'm just regurgitating from my old posts... ;_; "

Far as "canon" go, most of the analysis I've done here so far is just elaborating upon some of the basic building blocks of the lore. Like, Seele being ancient is canon, them having a covenant with Lilith is canon, their preoccupation with original sin is canon -- a lot of this is just an intrinsic part of the work. In terms of analysis and deductions and such, all I personally can hope for is that a picture gradually emerges and increasingly clarifies. When the occasion demands, one has to be absolutely willing to abandon ideas and start over -- I recently had to do this with a lot of my ideas surrounding Third Impact -- but not everything works out and there's nothing wrong with that.

View Original PostRei IV wrote:unfortunately unlike NGE, were limited in terms of information/knowledge in the NTE continuity, therefor, one must strain themselves to make sense out of this clusterfuck. The lack of a Complete Records for 3.0 is also frustrating given it's been almost 8 years

NTE is far, far more information-dense than NGE is. The sheer amount of stuff that's packed into the movies continues to astonish me. The display of pedantry (as Anno himself has called it) is utterly dizzying. The CRC for 3.0 would help, sure, but only to a certain extent. BB and I are still noticing things that have been sitting there in plain sight since the very first film. There isn't a decoder ring for NTE's visual language -- it's going to require hard work no matter what. If you're "straining" yourself and regard it as nothing more than an impenetrable clusterfuck, then obviously don't bother with it -- this should just be fun. Nobody has to play if they don't want to.*

There's a very specific handful of things where the lack of information is hampering what BlueBasilisk and I are doing, and, well, we still don't have 1/4 of the whole, so that's 100% to be expected. Once we get 3+1, a huge number of things will snap into place like rubber bands under tension. (And, well, you want to talk about "straining" -- there are parts of NGE that still don't make sense and probably never will. All of the the resources in the world don't do diddly squat for nonsense like episode #24', at all.)

All this is to say, be careful with the preemptive defeatism, as it doesn't help anybody; not you, and certainly not me, considering I've barely gotten through any of my material so far. ;p

*(Meaning, yes, I absolutely, 100% sometimes throw up my hands and scream about how these movies are nonsensical pieces of shit and Anno is awful and I hate him forever -- and that's when I know it's time to take a break and do something else for a while... There's a very good reason I'm alternating between the thread and my fanfic.)
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Rei IV » Sun May 17, 2020 11:39 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Heh, I find it amusing that you specifically name Lilith's eyes being gouged out for its interest -- that's something I first posted many years back, so of course a part of me is thinking, "All this new stuff I only just put together, and Rei IV likes the thing that I'm just regurgitating from my old posts... ;_; "

LOL, my apologies but it's reflection of my poor analytical skills and short attention span. You went (very) in-depth with these posts explaining some very unique facets of NTE lore (as well as your own thoughts and theories) and all that stood out for me was that Lilth in NTE had bolted eyes and when we see her in GNR form, she has bloody eyes and how I did not notice that all this time. :hahaha:

NTE is far, far more information-dense than NGE is. The sheer amount of stuff that's packed into the movies continues to astonish me. The display of pedantry (as Anno himself has called it) is utterly dizzying. The CRC for 3.0 would help, sure, but only to a certain extent. BB and I are still noticing things that have been sitting there in plain sight since the very first film. There isn't a decoder ring for NTE's visual language -- it's going to require hard work no matter what. If you're "straining" yourself and regard it as nothing more than an impenetrable clusterfuck, then obviously don't bother with it -- this should just be fun. Nobody has to play if they don't want to.*

Honestly, most of my frustration stems from the fact I really want an Evangelion 3.0 CRC because these books, although they didn't provide answers to everything with regards to NTE narrative and lore, still nevertheless filled a gap. Evangelion 3.0 was released in 2012 and know we're in 2020 with nothing to fill in that gap. Perhaps a CRC will be released once 3.0+1.0 hits theaters and gets a home video release with an ADDITIONAL CRC covering the fourth installment as well. One can dream.

There's a very specific handful of things where the lack of information is hampering what BlueBasilisk and I are doing, and, well, we still don't have 1/4 of the whole, so that's 100% to be expected. Once we get 3+1, a huge number of things will snap into place like rubber bands under tension. (And, well, you want to talk about "straining" -- there are parts of NGE that still don't make sense and probably never will. All of the the resources in the world don't do diddly squat for nonsense like episode #24', at all.)

All this is to say, be careful with the preemptive defeatism, as it doesn't help anybody; not you, and certainly not me, considering I've barely gotten through any of my material so far. ;p

I'll heed your advice. I'm not at a point (and don't think I'll ever be) where I'll hate the movies or Evangelion but sometimes I say to myself "What's the fucking point?" and then proceed to foam at the mouth about the insane complexity of NTE and parrot every lame and tired claim of Anno allegedly trolling audiences or making it up as he goes and he doesn't know what he's doing with the movies (not true) and then realize I need to take a break from Eva and most importantly, get a grip with myself and reality before turning into a overly-anal fanboy.

:rei_meh:

Any who, keep up the good work. I'll continue to look forward your posts with regards to NTE lore and probably revisit the damn movies. :lol:

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon May 18, 2020 12:13 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Great reply, Ursus! You packed a lot into just three paragraphs and have made me even more excited about doing Part II! :heehee: In fact, you've made me so giddy that I'm going to splurge on some stuff that will invariably receive more thorough coverage later. Curse you! :nyao:

EDIT2: Ursus, you brilliant scamp!


*Bows* Everything is proceeding according to my scenario of doom and evil. :gendoscheme:

I note that with the Mark.06 mask, the Seele crest covers the rivers of tears streaming from the "missing eyes", as though the crest was superimposed over what was existing, the eyes with boltholes, and those in turn appear to be superimposed on the moon crater mask, which in turn is sewed onto the skin with stitches resembling that of the new Bardiel's goo when Asuka Shikinami gets slimed in Eva-03's entry plug. It's as though all of this is being imposed or imprinted on the supine Moon Giant as a prelude to its transformation into Mark.06. Funny enough, none of the eyes on the mask correspond to either of Mark.06's real eyes, which are hidden behind what looks like that giant sleeping mask with the pattern for the visor. It's as though Mark.06 is Cyclops from X-Men and has to keep its eyes shielded to stop everyone around from getting zapped, something I never completely got around (I've heard about "nobody can see the eyes of God" but I suspect that Mark.06 was meant to serve as Lilith's eyes before Seele decided to serve as Mark.06's eyes).

The moon mask also makes me wonder if the Mark.06 is connected to the moon in a similar way as Lilith is to Earth, since the Moon expands and shows the same grid pattern as Lilith (which I suspect is filled with core material) when Mark.06 fuses with Lilith's neck and subsequently bloats to enormous size. Maybe via Mark. 06 the moon was turned to core material and bloated and brought closer to Earth, which is why it hangs over the sky like a disco ball of doom?

By the way, when Seele sacrifice themselves, look closely at the bottom of the brainstem. It looks like a part of what should be Nebuchadnezzar's key at the base of each of the Seele brains. Didn't see it being pointed out, so it may have gotten lost in the text. It also appears to be somewhat upside-down and a little on the stubby side compared to the Key in Gendo's possession, so this may be the inverse, implanting a brain rather than implanting a full nervous system.
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Mon May 18, 2020 2:08 am

I'll have to contemplate the mask and moon stuff further, but about this...

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:By the way, when Seele sacrifice themselves, look closely at the bottom of the brainstem. It looks like a part of what should be Nebuchadnezzar's key at the base of each of the Seele brains. Didn't see it being pointed out, so it may have gotten lost in the text. It also appears to be somewhat upside-down and a little on the stubby side compared to the Key in Gendo's possession, so this may be the inverse, implanting a brain rather than implanting a full nervous system.

Thanks for pointing this out! :w00t: The thing under the brain was absolutely niggling me, as it didn't clearly correspond to any anatomy and I felt like I was going insane. It's entirely possible there's a link between the key and Seele, but in the grand Anno tradition of "why settle for one reading when you can have at least two?", let me share this (very, very hastily thrown together):

SPOILER: Show
Image

After you mentioned the idea that the thing under the brain was supposed to be actually representative, I immediately saw a goblet, and thought of the Black Moon, which is a goblet with a flying saucer attached to the top. This is actually more appropriate than it might first appear, since... remember in Eva 1.11? There was a chamber full of gigantic neurons somewhere in the actual "Moon" (saucer) section. The top of the Black Moon might literally contain a brain. :uhh: I'm not sure what this comparison means for Seele right now, though... Weird, weird shit, man.

You're bringing great stuff to the table -- keep it up! :D
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Shun » Mon May 18, 2020 12:46 pm

Another good post! I'm not sure if I understand correctly:
* An "event" happened in ancient times.
* This event is the original sin, and Lilith has to do with it (have you already explained what is it?).
* Seele and Lilith make a covenant.
* Lilith loses her eyes, or rather, gives them to Seele (to do what? transmigration of their souls inside monoliths?).
* Seele gives civilization and progress to humanity, so that HIP with Lilith will be accomplished in the future.
* Seele are 7 monoliths and have 7-eye logo. Mark.06 have mask with 7-eye logo. Lilith have bolts with 7-eye logo.
* Seele & Lilith = covenant for HIP
* Seele & Mark.06 = Adams used for HIP
* Lilith & Mark. 06 = something about HIP

It's ok?

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed May 20, 2020 5:05 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Even more bizarre, his mother is, in a sense, MARI!!! (Which, uh... The two characters get identified with one another a few times, so I guess it didn't exactly come out of nowhere...)

Maybe it's just me, but that did come exactly out of nowhere. WTF are we on about Mari being a mother(-esque) character in NTE? What'd I miss? I'm so confused right now...

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby kuro hazama » Wed May 20, 2020 7:36 am

Personally Im on the opinion that the black moon, more than a brain(who knows) is meant to resemble an eaten apple, this symbol is related to seele and the nerv logos etc, Interestingly enough I found it a very natural stylistic change after seeing It being whole in the storyboards.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed May 20, 2020 8:57 am

^ I’m of the opinion that it’s the Holy Grail. That thing looks like a giant chalice to me.

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 20, 2020 8:58 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What'd I miss?

The thread that this is a continuation of, it sounds like... :-P (Mari = original soul of Mark.06. Therefore, if Kaworu was born from Mark.06......)

View Original Postkuro hazama wrote:the black moon, more than a brain(who knows) is meant to resemble an eaten apple, this symbol is related to seele and the nerv logos etc

I'm not sure what you mean by "more than a brain is meant to resemble an eaten apple". But, yeah, the shape does allude to an eaten apple very strongly, and given Lilith's connection to original sin I'm sure that's no coincidence. There are many other things going on in the design at the same time, however, like the Holy Grail iconography, and something else I'm saving for a bit later. It makes my head spin.

Shun wrote:I'm not sure if I understand correctly:

A lot of the stuff you're asking about hasn't really been covered yet, except in a "teasing for later" kind of capacity. I did provide my thoughts on Lilith losing her eyes back in E7, though. ("So, on one level, the 'Seven Eyes of God' are none other than Seele! Lilith is using them to keep an eye on things and act on her behalf. The ritualistic blinding is thus a blood sacrifice that indicates Lilith has entrusted them with Her will.") There could be more going on to this "You Will Be My Eyes Now, Seele Members" thing than what I wrote, of course.

On a related note, I wonder if the Angel blood sacrifices play a secretly "practical" function, and not merely a ceremonial one. I've been boggling over the matter and so far I haven't come up with anything...
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed May 20, 2020 9:07 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The thread that this is a continuation of, it sounds like... :-P (Mari = original soul of Mark.06. Therefore, if Kaworu was born from Mark.06......)

O_o

Apparently I’m gonna have a lot of threads to catch up on this weekend... (Sorry, I just kinda jumped in the middle of all this, it seems.)

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Giji Shinka » Wed May 20, 2020 1:11 pm

Reichu, I don't know if I have missed, but have you already covered why Mari and Asuka are seemingly unable to act as impact triggers in some other thread is it something you will address in a future part?
If Mari is related to Mark.06 and Kaworu in a certain way then she should be able to trigger an impact, right?
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby cyharding » Wed May 20, 2020 7:25 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:This is actually more appropriate than it might first appear, since... remember in Eva 1.11? There was a chamber full of gigantic neurons somewhere in the actual "Moon" (saucer) section. The top of the Black Moon might literally contain a brain.


I always thought that chamber was a repository of primordial life or something like that.
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu May 21, 2020 3:04 am

I've been wondering about all the William Blake stuff that's been turning up lately and I wonder if there's a thing or two in Blake's mythos that helps.

777 Nigoki turning into a giant panther - well, it might actually not be so much a panther as a tiger! "Tyger, Tyger, burning bright, in the forests of the night..." and "The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction".

And Anno seems to be using Blake to refer to Kaworu - why else is Kaworu waking up in a coffin on the moon? From the Chimney Sweeper, in Poems of Innocence and Poems of Experience -

"There’s little Tom Dacre, who cried when his head,
That curl'd like a lamb’s back, was shav'd: so I said
‘Hush, Tom! never mind it, for when your head’s bare
You know that the soot cannot spoil your white hair.’

And so he was quiet, and that very night,
As Tom was a-sleeping, he had such a sight!—
That thousands of sweepers, Dick, Joe, Ned, and Jack,
Were all of them lock'd up in coffins of black.

And by came an Angel who had a bright key,
And he open'd the coffins & set them all free;"

Given that these chimney sweepers are an exploited, miserable, undersized group of children, I wonder if Anno was making a point about the state of the children being exploited and miserable by definition, using the Kaworu-coffin connection as an unusual clue. In addition, there's a Keats poem, the "Sonnet to Sleep", which includes the line "unseal the hushed casket of the soul" ("Unseal the hushed casket" being very memorably used in Halo as Cortana's signal to awaken Master Chief aboard the Pillar of Autumn)

And there's more good stuff from Marriage of Heaven and Hell - "Man has no Body distinct from his Soul for that called Body is a portion of Soul discernd by the five Senses, the chief inlets of Soul in this age."
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:20 pm

The process of getting Pt. I online has alerted me to a lot of details and connections I previously missed, and so I haven’t covered the fundamental iconography and symbolism anywhere near as thoroughly as I would like. Additional “Appendix” sections may be interspersed throughout my previously planned procession on an as-needed basis. We'll see how it works out.


Pt. I Summary
&
Pt. II Introduction


Seele are ancient beings (10,000 years old at the bare minimum) who, at some point during that time:

1) extended their lives significantly through the use of core-based technology
2) formed a covenant with Lilith (implied to be, in some sense, their God)

...in order to (not necessarily in this exact sequence):

3) resurrect Lilith
4) create a ‘true god’ (the True Evangelion)
5) enact Human Instrumentality
6) purify all souls
7) eradicate original sin.

I’ve touched upon their “plan & procedure” a little so far — though I admit I’ve mostly been evasive. The reason for this is that, much as in NGE, the backstory is essential for making full sense of the present. “But what backstory?”, you might ask. The movies have directly told us almost nothing about the past, preferring to err toward misdirection and mindfuckery. There is some information about Second Impact (albeit frustratingly little given the sheer scale of 2I’s renewed mystery) and a teensy weensy bit about the Artificial Evolution Laboratory and what was happening there, but aside from that? We basically just have “Seele guided human civilization”. That’s… not very much at all.

In spite of this, Anno is up to his usual tricks, and together with his team he’s crafted some incredibly dense, meticulously constructed films that rely, to an even greater degree than NGE, upon visual storytelling and intertextuality. What this means is that the films are a puzzle that respond well to audience effort. (Assuming the movies are constructed in good faith and won’t be dismantled “it was all just a dream”-style by the end of 3+1.) In my previous thread, on the interrelationship between the Adams and the Children, I was able to start blowing open the veil of secrecy that had made important events like Second and Fourth Impact seemingly impenetrable. Here, I intend to use the same methods to crack open the universe of the films even further — all the way into the deep past that the members of Seele hail from.


II. Signs of an Ancient World


Earlier, I asked “what exactly are Seele and what do they want?” Although I started to work toward some semblance of an answer, the mysteries are still considerable. Here, I’ll continue to interrogate those queries in greater detail, along with (slowly) continuing to build up to Pt. III, where I intend to address the exact specifics of how they hope to achieve their goals (the constantly shifting landscape — wink — of Impacts and their mechanics) and what the movies’ possible end game is.

Seele, in addition to being really, really old, are said to possess the Fruit of Knowledge, and they’re otherwise very closely associated with Lilith. This implies rather strongly that Lilith created them. But did how did this work, exactly? Did Lilith create seven Lilin-like beings specifically to shepherd us and act as her mediators?* Alternatively, are Seele relics of something much, much bigger — say, an entire civilization that preceded our own? If the latter, were they indigenous to Earth, or did they journey to Earth from space? Is there any way to know? Does it even matter?

Buckle up, buckaroos. Things are about to get pretty damn strange.

* (A possibility that would make them even more similar to the Gazel Ministry of Xenogears than they already were. See the Seele subheading here for additional thoughts. More information here.)

A. A Non-Human Intelligence

In the Avant 1 for Shin, while Maya’s team is attempting to decrypt the pillar, she says something very, very interesting:

MAYA:
Same as the Evas, it's an unknown and unexplained non-human system.
It can't be controlled with human language easily.

マヤ「エヴァ同様人外未知の未解明システムですもの。人類の言語じゃ楽に制御できないのよ」


(Translation by me, based on this fan transcription. This should be a MUCH more accurate rendition of the line than the English subtitles that showed up immediately in the wake of Avant 1’s premier.)

The “it” in question is the sealing pillar tech, so Maya here is not only telling us that the sealing pillars are a form of non-human technology — she’s also strongly implying, if not flat-out stating, that the Evas are as well.

NTE has the same problem that NGE does, where “human” is used by default to refer to a specific kind of being called “Lilin” (Plain Jane Homo sapiens), but can also encompass other entities depending on context. There are three major lines of evidence for this:

(1) In Ha, both Mari and Ritsuko say that Eva-02 casts its humanity aside when it enters Beast Mode. (As a bit of trivia, the phrasing here directly invokes that used in EoE when Misato explains the true nature of Adam’s Children.) You can’t cast your humanity aside if you didn’t have any in the first place. Ergo, Eva-02 is human.

(2) Most of the Evas have full designations that include 人造人間 (jinzou ningen), which literally means “artificial human”. Quite sneakily, this term refers to both androids and cyborgs, and NGE clearly invoked the ambiguity on purpose. We were superficially led to believe that the Evas were androids — mechanical constructs with a human-like appearance — when in fact they were biological humans that had been modified cybernetically. In NTE, there’s no point in playing the same guessing game again, and this is taken to its logical in-universe conclusion: all lines from NGE where characters mistake Evas for “robots” were omitted from the script for Eva Jo. The jinzou ningen in question are cyborgs, full stop; ergo all of the NTE Evas known to possess “Jinzou Ningen Evangelion” in their full designation are human*.

*(So far, this refers to all Evas aside from the 04 Series, Mark.06, Mark.09, and Evangelion 13. This does not necessarily mean that these Evas are not also “jinzou ningen”, since an air of mystery has been deliberately maintained around them. Mark.09 is a good candidate for being something else — an “Adams’ Vessel” in its case — but as for the others? Who knows.)

(3) Also in Ha, Ritsuko says during Asuka and Shinji’s respective plug depth incidents (with Eva-03 and Eva-01 respectively) that the pilot will cease to be human. At the end of Q, Asuka casually remarks to Shinji and Tentative Rei that they “need to go where the Lilin can pick [them] up”. We see the full significance of this in Shin’s Avant 1, where the Wille crew need to wear hazmat suits to survive within the L Barrier — whereas Asuka, Shinji, and Rei do not. Ergo, Asuka and Shinji “ceasing to be human” just means they’re no longer Lilin like most of the Wille crew; they’ve become something else. They’re obviously still human, but they’re human in a “non-Lilin kind of way”. (Rei was presumably never traditionally human in the first place.)


So, going back to Maya’s quote, “non-human” (人外, jingai) could refer to a humanoid intelligence that simply happens to not be Lilin. Another species with the Fruit of Knowledge, perhaps…?

Now, I know some of you are going to be thinking “First Ancestral Race”. I personally don’t like to drag them into NTE, since it helps to establish the basics of what’s going on before resorting to “a mysterious race of extinct interstellar colonizers did it”. But, that said…

The concept of the FAR was slightly different during the earlier phases of NGE’s development, and, at least as late as the scripting of episode 21, they were planned to be a civilization that existed on Earth before us, and were possibly even native to the planet. (In the draft for episode 21 published in Evangelion Original III, and nowhere else, they’re referred to as the “First Indigenous Race”, indicating the idea that they were native Terrans was strongly considered.) For anyone familiar with Anno’s larger body of works, this prototype version of the FAR might immediately bring to mind the Atlanteans from Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water.

It’s no particular secret that, with Q, NTE has become a sort of stealth Nadia remake. (Wunder is the N-Nautilus, Misato is Captain Nemo, etc. etc.) Now, in that show, the people of Atlantis were extraterrestrial humanoids who landed on Earth in three giant flying saucers — “Arks” — in the distant past and, unable to leave, established a highly advanced (however bellicose) civilization. Humanity as we know it was uplifted from apes: re-engineered in the image of the Atlanteans and made their servant race until the Atlanteans effectively wiped themselves out.

NTE, rather suspiciously, includes many allusions to the Atlanteans. Is it possible that these are more than just playful callbacks, but rather that Anno is using intertextuality between his works to imply that NTE's mythos has its own version of the Atlanteans? This would mean that the bombshell about Seele is not simply some isolated bit of weirdness, and exists within a much greater context. Next post, I'll start to look over the relevant Nadia-NTE parallels and what they might mean for Evangelion: New Theatrical.
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Shun » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:34 am

Finally the second part! Very interesting, I'm waiting the next posts! :D
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Mihrdat » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:49 am

(3) Also in Ha, Ritsuko says during Asuka and Shinji’s respective plug depth incidents (with Eva-03 and Eva-01 respectively) that the pilot will cease to be human. At the end of Q, Asuka casually remarks to Shinji and Tentative Rei that they “need to go where the Lilin can pick [them] up”. We see the full significance of this in Shin’s Avant 1, where the Wille crew need to wear hazmat suits to survive within the L Barrier — whereas Asuka, Shinji, and Rei do not. Ergo, Asuka and Shinji “ceasing to be human” just means they’re no longer Lilin like most of the Wille crew; they’ve become something else. They’re obviously still human, but they’re human in a “non-Lilin kind of way”. (Rei was presumably never traditionally human in the first place.)


Do you think it's possible that Shinji and Asuka are mini-Evangelions now? I wonder if Anno plans to use this tidbit to give them Angel-like abilities.

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:48 am

This follow-up was supposed to be much more immediate and to-the-point, but I let myself get caught up in minutiae and... well, you know how it goes. I'll try to catch up on replies within the next few days.

B. Atlantean Parallels

This section will go over some (mostly visual) parallels that exist between Atlantean (or Atlantean-adjacent) elements from Nadia, and various weird and overwhelmingly unexplained stuff from the NTE films. Some of these have been pointed out by others before, while I noticed some others for the first time during my recent Nadia rewatch.

1. Mysterious Symbols

Let’s start with Maya’s line and the two things she specifically calls out as non-human examples of technology: the sealing pillar and the Evangelions. While there is no true equivalent to Evangelions in the world of Nadia (that’s more Nausicaa’s role to play in informing the implied backstory of NTE, which I hope to eventually cover in detail as well), fans saw the memetic connection between the orihalcum glyphs from Nadia and NTE’s Angel-sealing hex glyphs as soon as the latter debuted in Evangelion 2.0.

Orihalcum is, in Nadia, a precious glowing blue material that contains intricate lined patterns at any level of magnification. The eponymous Blue Waters are made of this substance.

SPOILER: Show
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^ Nadia's Blue Water at two different levels of magnification.

Image
^ A mysterious doorway in Blue Noah reacting to Nadia's Blue Water and lighting up with the same kind of patterns.

Image
^ A "normal" piece of orihalcum.

Image
^ This same piece of orihalcum reacting to Gargoyle's touch.


Within the orihalcum itself, the lines tend to flow together into a continuous pattern and somewhat bring to mind the aesthetic of Mesoamerican reliefs, such as those on the Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl. The orihalcum flashing for Gargoyle, however, shows that sometimes there are more discrete symbols within -- in this particular instance, they seem to combine simplified Incan glyph reliefs with kanji (and especially in the upper left screenshot, are often just unmodified kanji outright, heh).

When we see the power of the Blue Waters channeled by the Red Noah's technology, symbols are projected outward that are comprised of lots of straight lines and right angles, with each symbol occupying a uniform square area. These ones ought to look especially familiar.

SPOILER: Show
Image

Image
^ (This looks weird because Nadia is floating inside a cylindrical chamber where the walls are covered in the symbols. At least, I think that’s what’s happening...)

Image

Anyway, you get the idea. These glyphs are linked in some vaguely implied way to the power of orihalcum, as they completely vanish when any given piece of orihalcum is “depowered” (cracks; has its accumulation of deceased Atlantean souls expended to bring a single person back to life; etc.). For our purposes, the specifics probably don’t much matter.

In Eva:Ha, a new set of mysterious, typically glowing symbols shows up, the so-called Angel-sealing hex glyphs.

SPOILER: Show
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These are patterned somewhat obviously after human fingerprints, are so are very much distinct from the orihalcum glyphs, but definite visual similarities exist: the long lines weaving back and forth, each character occupying a square of identical area, and so forth.

SPOILER: Show
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Image

See also our wiki page for a screenshot gallery of the glyphs’ various appearances in the films.

This similarity may extend beyond a mere visual parallel to encompass the technology itself. In both Nadia and NTE, these glyphs are identified with a mysterious material with unusual, even mystical properties. I say this because whatever black material the pillars are made of is able to withstand the process of coreification, something ordinary materials clearly cannot do. From this, we can deduce that at least Eva-01’s coffin (what the script calls her orbital prison) and the purple-striped “eggs” of Evas 01 and 13 are probably made of this same material, as these objects can similarly withstand coreification and contain its spread.

SPOILER: Show
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^ Sealing pillar in Paris, unaffected by coreification. (Also, I somehow did not notice until making this stitch that the ESV looks like a dragon's head. Has eyes, horns, and an underbite with two fangs poking out. Good grief, Anno, stop fucking with my head. That's a lie; never stop fucking with my head, I love it too much. I am definitely going to work this observation into an upcoming section of the thread.)

Image
^ Eva-01’s orbital prison, the “coffin”.

Image
^ There are glyphs on the coffin too, hmm...

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^ Crack in the coffin’s material showing that the inside is completely filled with core.

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^ Eva-01’s egg (top) and Eva-13’s egg (bottom).

Image
^ This is when Eva-02 jettisons its mechanical arm right after inserting the igniter into the Wunder’s engine. During this shot, red veiny STUFF can be seen creeping down the Eva’s left arm, and for this single frame we get to clearly see what this “stuff” actually is.


This provides a fairly overt hint that weird non-human technology is diffused throughout the world of NTE, and an upcoming section of the thread will cover this in a way purely internal to the films.

Moving on, this isn’t the only mysterious character set we see in either Nadia or NTE. The former includes various versions of Atlantean writing:

SPOILER: Show
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^ An incomplete collection of Atlantean text that appears throughout the show. King says "hi".

Image
Image
^ Laboriously created but unavoidably messy composites of the script that scrolls across the screen at a point in episode 31. There is a more extensive display of the script shown in the second image here, but it’s also much less clear due to more crap covering the text that had to be badly edited out.

...and NTE similarly includes some unidentified writing systems. One of these almost looks like a simplified version of the sealing glyphs, though this might be purely superficial. I’m sure you can see some resemblance to various Atlantean characters, as well.

SPOILER: Show
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And there is another set of characters that appears in the repeating seal used by the Seele program’s “lol u got hax0red” screen.

SPOILER: Show
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Image
Image


Which in turn puts one of the Ultra signs (as in, from the Ultraman franchise) at the center of the “incantation”:

SPOILER: Show
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^ (You may remember the Ace sign being misidentified as Zoffy’s way back, but Blue Basilisk and I discovered that this was not the case.)


And I suppose, while we’re here, I might as well drop the cool finding that this weird magic circle actually does appear in the movies proper, albeit very well hidden in the pre-4K version of Q we are currently limited to.

SPOILER: Show
Image

Image


(There are additional characters in the full version of the seal, but there is no possible way at the moment to tell what the hell they are. It's retina-murdering enough just to try to match the barely discernible Ultra signs to their clearly visible counterparts in the preview version of the seal.)

Now, as it just so happens, we have Ultra signs appearing in Nadia. The “Ultraman” sign is visible on the left capsule here:

SPOILER: Show
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And in one batch of Atlantean script that scrolls across the screen,

SPOILER: Show
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...I spot Ultraman's sign (two instances) along with Zoffy's and Jack's. I wouldn't be surprised if more are hiding.

In Nadia, the Atlanteans originate from the M78 Nebula, which is a reference to Ultraman and contextualizes references to the Ultraman language like this one. Bringing back the references to Ultraman language in NTE doubles the intertextuality — Anno’s referencing Ultraman directly, but he’s also referencing Nadia’s referencing of Ultraman. What are the implications, exactly? Did NTE’s implied pre-Lilin civilization (“PLC”) in fact originate from the M78 Nebula as well? I’ll come back to this question later in the thread.

For now, another observation to note is that the various Atlantean character sets and what we’re shown of equivalent scripts in NTE both show similarities to multiple real-world writing systems. (I can see bits of Greek, Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, Egyptian hieroglyphics, and all three Japanese writing systems.) Since this post has already gotten far longer and more detailed than I originally envisioned, I won’t go into detailed comparisons for this particular aspect, and if anyone else is interested in compiling such data for the rest of us, I am more than happy to leave it to you. :tongue:

But is there a reason these similarities exist, other than the Doyleist “because it’s easier than making up characters completely from scratch”? Well, consider Nadia’s Atlanteans. They are the true original humans, extraterrestrials who uplifted the native Terran apes into sapient beings more or less indistinguishable from themselves. The show very much plays into “ancient alien” tropes like “pyramids appear independently in multiple cultures because aliens did it first”*; the Atlanteans not only have pyramids, but their cultural aesthetic is borrowed pretty directly from Egypt, Mesoamerica, and Mesopotamia, the same three areas where pyramidal architecture separately developed*. NTE does not show much in the way of PLC “culture”, but it similarly lays into the pyramid conspiracy stuff a bit, extending the original visual motif of the Nerv HQ pyramid into this upside-down tetrahedral behemoth covered with obelisks and having a concave interior that brings to mind the stepped levels of a ziggurat, or, with its jagged and uneven lines, the stripped facades of the Egyptian pyramids.

--INSERT RELEVANT IMAGES HERE LATER, MAYBE--

* (HUGE DISCLAIMER: I may be completely misrepresenting elements of the Ancient Aliens modern mythologies; it is not really my area of expertise and I personally find it far less approachable for research purposes than the usual mystical and occultist stuff that Anno references. Anyway, please correct any mistakes that you see.)

To get to the actual point here, the Atlantean writing systems likely have similarities to various real-world languages for the simple Watsonian reason that we puny ape-creatures obtained such innovations as written language from our superior stellar creators. Could something similar hold in NTE? We’ve already been told that Seele did, in effect, shepherd us to our current state. If Seele are the remnants of a pre-Lilin civilization, then we likely would have inherited much of their culture and knowledge, so as to jump-start us to an advanced stage of development.


I’m going to wrap this subsection here and cover the other, much simpler Atlantis-related parallels next time.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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