Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:36 pm

I’ve been teasing a follow-up to the Adams/Children thread for a while, so let us begin! As before, this analysis is a result of work done mainly by myself and BlueBasilisk. Updates to this thread will come in between new installments of FBLM (see sig). Since the thread will take a while to really get revved up, here’s what you can eventually expect to be covered in detail...

Proposition:

The story of New Theatrical Edition occurs within a single, forward-moving timeline that encompasses thousands of years. Within this span of time, a similar series of events -- humans find gods, humans create Evas, Evas destroy Angels, artificial evolution is attempted via Impact -- has played out twice on Earth. The first “loop” involved a pre-Lilin civilization (or "PLC"), a technologically-advanced species of forerunners who wiped themselves out through First Impact. The second “loop” involves the PLC's successors, the Lilin, being guided to a state of advancement by seven surviving PLC representatives (Seele), with the ultimate intention of undoing the damage wrought by First Impact. The Final Impact, the last stage in this purification process, will produce a renewed third take on humanoid sapience for the planet Earth.

^ While extremely simplified, this gives you a general idea of how batshit insane this thread will eventually get. As they say in Japan, “Please look forward to it!”


Table of Contents

Part I. Introduction (Pact Between Man & God)
A. Our Seele Is Different
B. The Covenant
C. Original Sin

D. The Serpent
E1 & E2. Divine Numbers (Background; Lilith's Resurrection & The True God)
E3 & E4. Divine Numbers (Seven Motif; Seele = Seven Eyes)

Part II. Signs of an Ancient World
A. A Non-Human Intelligence
B. Parallels to Nadia's Atlantis
1. Mysterious Symbols

Part III. Of Purification, Resurrection, and Deification
-pending-

I. Pact Between Man and God

A. Not Your Mama's Global Conspiracy

When NTE began, it was easy to assume that Seele wasn’t too different from the one we were used to. Sure, there was a different number of monoliths, they appeared only as monoliths from the start, and they now had a “covenant” with Lilith (whatever that meant), but they still seemed pretty much like your average doomsday cult of old men who secretly rule the world.

Then Q dropped a bombshell on us:

Eva 3.0 Dansubs wrote:GENDO:
Though your souls may have taken on a different form,
you are still products of the forbidden fruit.
While it may be possible to live eternally,
death must come to you as it does to us.
In your quest to assist the evolution of those burdened with mortality,
you gave us civilization.
On behalf of all humanity, I express our gratitude.
With your deaths, I will return your souls to where they belong.


A somewhat more literal translation, in case it’s helpful:
GitHub translation  SPOILER: Show
GENDO:
Though you have all changed the form of your souls,
you are still creatures blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge.
Though you could have lived for an eternity,
you can escape the fate of death no more than us.
To advance the evolution of the flock burdened by death,
you gave us the gift of civilization.
On behalf of humanity, I thank you.
Let death return your souls to where they belong.


During this scene, the monoliths are “shut off”, which turns them a plain gray color and reveals scans of human brains plus the top of the spine A GOBLET (with skulls and soft tissues also briefly visible, easier to see from some angles than others) inside them.

Image

More images  SPOILER: Show
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(Interestingly, the graphic on the back of the monoliths vanishes when they go gray, while the designs on the front stay. This may be worth taking a look at later in the thread.)

There’s a lot to take in here, so let’s go over the implications step by step.

1) Seele are the monoliths, and the monoliths are Seele’s souls.

There’s a very good reason we never saw any Seele members as actual flesh-and-blood people in NTE: their bodies no longer exist. At some point in the past, they ‘changed the shape of their souls’. What this means becomes clear when the monoliths are shut off, and they are revealed to have holographic(?) scans of human brains inside them. This implies not only that their complete brain data exists within the monoliths, but that the neurological network of the brain and the “soul” are the same thing, or close to it. Reinforcing this connection is the fact that the "Seele" (meaning "soul") logo is perfectly contained within the brain portion of the scan.

This brings to mind lore from NGE, wherein digitized personality patterns were effectively “artificial souls”. (This despite the fact that, in NGE, the soul included not only the entirety of the mind, but encoded all data pertaining to the body as well; which is how people are able to reform themselves perfectly from any LCL.) NTE introduces a new angle to the overall concept in terms of the technology used to achieve this. Look at the Seele monoliths very closely and tell me what you see:

Image

No, not the logo (though we’ll go over that later). The core texture! This texture takes on a “corrupted” appearance as of Q, and of course is gone entirely when the monoliths are shut off, but its presence in the first place is pretty significant. “Core texture” is utilized very carefully in these films, and while it’s still quite an open question where the movies are going in terms of the expanded role that they give cores and their constituent material, Anno’s memo regarding the texture provides some insight:

SPOILER: Show
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“The soul made material” seems especially pertinent here. It doesn’t provide any kind of solid answer as to what “core” actually is, but it does reinforce the point about Seele transforming their souls. Presumably the monoliths are not a mere digitization or the like, but are their genuine souls, merely converted from one state to another. This would make the core-tech the monoliths use VERY different from the “personality OS” tech of NGE, which only generates a crude copy of a soul at best.

How might this transformation be achieved? Well…

SPOILER: Show
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Yui vanishing inside Eva-01 as a result of her bizarre “direct core entry” experiment means that she was completely absorbed by the core. Her “data” was transformed from one state (that of a flesh-and-blood being) to another (information/consciousness inside an Eva’s core). The mysterious case of the SDAT — which was inside Eva-00 when the 10th Angel devoured it, was metaphysically transferred to Eva-01 when it absorbed Eva-00’s core, and was later restored to a physical state —

SPOILER: Show
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indicates that “core” can act as a storage medium even where non-biological data is concerned, which is... interesting. With the monoliths having an implied “core” nature, perhaps their “transformation” involved the Seele members being absorbed wholesale into the monoliths, with the result that they continued to exist inside this medium until it was deliberately destroyed. At this point, it's possible their souls returned to their natural form -- the monoliths going gray imply that the life has left them, i.e., the souls have departed.

Another point of reference indicating that “core-tech” as a concept replaces the personality digitization methods of NGE is the DMYSYS. Next to nothing is known about this thing, but design-wise it resembles a spinal column, and where a skull should be it instead has the aptly-named “Head Unit”. This “Head Unit” exhibits core texture when active, suggesting it utilizes the same or similar technology as the Seele monoliths. Its status as a “head” links it to the monoliths further in that they all contain “heads” (see images from earlier).

SPOILER: Show
Image
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^ Note "Head Unit" text on unit.
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^ Note core texture.


2) Seele are really, really old.

During his speech, Gendo reminds Seele that, despite them moving their souls into resilient core-monoliths, they are still mortal and that death has come for them at last. In other words, these specific individuals have been evading death. But for how long? “You gave us civilization” doesn’t leave much to the imagination. When precisely “actual” civilization began is a bit fuzzy, but, assuming known human history in the NTE universe was mostly similar to ours, the seven members of Seele would probably be at least ~10,000 years old.

3) Seele guided human development.

Seele being a reference to 2001’s monoliths has been taken to its logical conclusion. They are no longer merely agents of human evolution — they are Forerunners as well! The exact extent of their involvement is left vague as hell, but we’re bluntly told that they advanced us to a civilized state for the express purpose of aiding our evolution. This may mean nothing more than what it says on the surface (as in, making Lilin civilized was the evolution they intended to induce), but... considering this is Seele? The odds of their end game for us being “civilization” is less than zero. The implications are quite ominous, really. We’ll look at this more later.


These last two items change the game in NTE significantly. The repercussions of these alteration to the lore are huge. To really pick apart the extent to which “You gave us civilization” matters, and isn’t merely a “wtf moment” that will never come up again, we need to step back and look at a few things:

Who are Seele? What are Seele? And what do they want?

To be continued in the next post! (And, yes, the answers may largely be old news, but I’m just covering all my bases here. Give the thread time to get going...)
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:43 am

Core in the Seele monoliths and Dummy System: Congratulations Reichu, once again you manage to drop a bombshell that was in plain sight this whole time
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:47 am

I remember thinking it was suspicious that we never saw flesh and blood Seele members in Eva Jo and Ha like we did in NGE, and the monoliths straight up dying during Gendo’s monologue in Eva Q was a dead give away to me. But one of the things that kept me from making sense of anything beyond that was the fact that Seele wanted death, and were okay with dying at that moment despite the fact that they still have some sort of plan that’s unfolding. Why would Seele want to die when their plan (whatever it is) isn’t complete? What part of their plan makes sense to have Gendo to see it through, especially since, according to Kaji in Eva Ha, Seele wasn’t going to take the Godhood of Unit 01 lying down? That sounds like a huge breach of trust. Granted, it was immediately subverted by “Seele’s Boy” Kaworu, but still; that seems like a major breach of trust.

I’m not picking holes in your theory or anything. I love the work you guys have done, and am excited to see where this idea (both in this thread and in the films) goes. I just had more questions at the end of that scene than I did before that scene as to Seele’s plan, since, you know, Seele’s dead now. These opened questions kinda irritate me, so I just try not to think about them that much, but with Thrice Upon a Time looming in the indefinite distance, it’s more difficult to ignore these questions.

SPOILER: Show
I sure hope it doesn’t end up being something like Moriarty dying in the BBC Sherlock series, only for it to be revealed that he posthumously still has a plan that goes absolutely nowhere and does absolutely nothing. I mean, Hideaki Anno isn’t stupid. He knows better than to write like Steven Moffat. But those are still huge loose ends to leave us with before being gone for 8 years.
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:50 pm

It's-a-here!

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:55 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I remember thinking it was suspicious that we never saw flesh and blood Seele members in Eva Jo and Ha like we did in NGE, and the monoliths straight up dying during Gendo’s monologue in Eva Q was a dead give away to me. But one of the things that kept me from making sense of anything beyond that was the fact that Seele wanted death, and were okay with dying at that moment despite the fact that they still have some sort of plan that’s unfolding. Why would Seele want to die when their plan (whatever it is) isn’t complete? What part of their plan makes sense to have Gendo to see it through, especially since, according to Kaji in Eva Ha, Seele wasn’t going to take the Godhood of Unit 01 lying down? That sounds like a huge breach of trust. Granted, it was immediately subverted by “Seele’s Boy” Kaworu, but still; that seems like a major breach of trust.

I took it that SEELE wanted to be part of instrumentality alongside the rest of humanity, but that their monolith form made them "impact-proof", so they needed to be unplugged ("killing" them) beforehand so their souls could be freed and join the other human souls.
Also IIRC when the unplugging happened when EVA-13 already absorbed the 12th Angel, so from SEELE's point of view the Fourth Impact and Instrumentality was beginning and nothing could stop it anymore, so they can let Gendo and Fuyutsuki kill them. (they can't wait until people start disappearing, else there wouldn't be anyone else to do the unplugging)
What SEELE didn't planned was that Gendo was one step ahead of them and made it so Kaworu would help WILLE short-circuit Fourth Impact at the last moment, by making the LoC change to a LoL. (by currently unknown means)
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:33 pm

Who Are Seele, What Are Seele, and What Do They Want?

To summarize from the previous post:

1) There are seven of them.
2) They predate human (= Lilin) civilization.
3) They, like humans (= Lilin), possess the Fruit of Knowledge.
4) They gave themselves unnaturally long life by preserving their souls inside monoliths that seem to utilize a form of core-based technology.
5) Their original biological forms seem to have been similar to ours (see: bones and soft tissues inside monoliths when they shut down).

This isn’t all, of course. Let’s take a closer look.

B. The Covenant

Seele’s connection to Lilith has been enhanced significantly from what it was in NGE, where they gave lip service to piety but, ultimately, gods were just a means to an end for them. The first big reveal comes in 1.0, during Gendo’s otherwise unspectacular meeting with them following Eva-01’s first engagement:

Eva Jo, Funi Subtitles wrote:SEELE 06:
Annihilating the Angels is only part of our covenant with Lilith.

KIEL:
The Human Instrumentality Project.
What we ultimately desire is the execution of that plan.

This reveals no less than three new things to us:

1) Seele are involved in a covenant with Lilith.
2) The defeat of the Angels is only one part of that agreement.
3) The Human Instrumentality Project’s fulfillment is implied to be another aspect of the covenant.

(What does this “covenant” business even mean? We’ll come back to that…)

The plot thickens in the second film:

Eva Ha, Dansubs wrote:06: 
There are more pressing issues at hand.
     
KIEL:
The true Evangelion… The one we dream of.
Its birth and the resurrection of Lilith will seal the pact.
The required rites must be carried out before that.
All we do, we do for the sake of the Human Instrumentality Project.

GENDO:     
I am well aware.
Everything shall proceed according to Seele's scenario.

GENDO:     
The true Evangelion...
All currently active units, Unit 01 included,
are merely there to clear the path for its completion.
     
FUYUTSUKI:
And is that the Mark.06?
They want to create a real god, not just false ones?

GENDO:     
Right.
We must expedite the awakening of Unit 01.

So we see here that the “covenant” comes up again (translated here as “pact”, but in Japanese it’s the exact same word, 契約,or keiyaku).* Remembering the previous implication that HIP is part of the covenant, and knowing that HIP is Seele’s ultimate goal, here we’re told that the covenant will be fulfilled with the “birth of the True Evangelion” and “Lilith’s resurrection”. Gendo and Fuyutsuki let us know that Seele plan to use Mark.06 to create this “true god” of theirs.

* (EDIT: This means that if the covenant is proceeding as it should, "All goes according to keiyaku". *dodges tomato* )

An aside about the True Gospel  SPOILER: Show
Another thing to notice here is that “True Evangelion” is double-speak for “True Gospel”. This search term seems to bring up a lot of shady-looking websites eager to tell us about the true gospel of the coming Kingdom of Heaven or some such. Even if this stuff is “reliable”, I’m not sure how much it actually has to do with how NTE is using it. (Maybe someone with ready access to a reliable source on the matter can pitch in.)

Some basic metaphors are fairly straightforward, at least. A literal translation of "evangelion" that is often used when referring to the gospels is "the good news (of the Lord)". Instrumentality itself is probably what Seele consider their own "good news", and the True Evangelion is the one who brings this good news to all of humanity. In that sense, the Eva would be more of a messenger than the message itself -- but, as the embodiment of that hope, the name still symbolically fits. The True Evangelion/Gospel that Seele intend to create will usher in their long-desired new era (shin seiki? :tongue: ). Remembering that the True Evangelion is also a "true (rather than false) god", a world where Instrumentality has succeeded possibly represents God's Kingdom of Heaven. These sorts of loose associations wouldn't be anything too crazy, as far as Eva goes.


With this “covenant” being so important, perhaps we should take a look at exactly what that entails. To use Wikipedia’s succinct definition:

Wikipedia wrote:In religion, a covenant is a formal alliance or agreement made by God with a religious community or with humanity in general


Multiple covenants are mentioned in the Bible, but the two that seem the most relevant to the films are the Noahic Covenant and the New Covenant.

For the former...
Genesis 9:8-17 wrote:8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 9 “As for me, I am establishing my covenant with you and your descendants after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the domestic animals, and every animal of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark. 11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” 12 God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: 13 I have set my bow in the clouds, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” 17 God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth.”

This ties into the annihilation of the Angels. The death of (almost) every Angel reduces its body to blood-red LCL, creating a miniature Flood. These are reminiscent of the global flood brought on by Second Impact, but even with the greatest Angels, like the 8th, the scale of catastrophe is nowhere close to Second Impact. As a general rule, every Angel’s death is also accompanied by a rainbow. As per Genesis 9, this can be taken as a divine sign of the covenant between God and Man being fulfilled. The significance of rainbows is that they are comprised of seven spectral colors, with “7” being a divine number.

The reference to the New Covenant seems to involve these aspects most heavily:

Wikipedia wrote:Christians thus believe that Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant, and that the Blood of Christ shed at his crucifixion is the required blood of the covenant. (…) The Christian view of the New Covenant is a new relationship between God and humans mediated by Jesus which necessarily includes all people, both Jews and Gentiles, upon sincere declaration that one believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and God. The New Covenant also breaks the generational curse of the original sin on all children of Adam if they believe in Jesus Christ, after people are judged for their own sins, which is expected to happen with the second arrival of Jesus Christ.

It gets a bit convoluted in that “Jesus” in Eva is not a single discrete entity. Both Lilith and Kaworu most obviously have “Jesus” elements. We’re going to focus on the former for now.

Since Lilith is the one with whom Seele have the “covenant”, she satisfies the role of Capital-G God. But despite having an incarnation in Rei, who theoretically provides a more direct Jesus analogy, Lilith herself is the one who is crucified and impaled on something called the Spear of Longinus. Further, the Black Moon has been turned into a giant mechanical goblet — i.e., it’s the Holy Grail.

SPOILER: Show
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The “resurrection” angle creates yet another Jesus parallel. In Q, we’re shown Lilith’s “corpse”, i.e., she has died... but we also know that part of the plan is her “resurrection”, which requires her to die at some point. Q implies that Seele fulfill at least part of their promise and achieve the successful physical resurrection of Lilith: with the Mark.06-12th Angel fusion in turn merging with Lilith’s remains, becoming a giant embryo and being consumed by Eva-13, who turns into a pure white Radiant Giant as a result.

relevant image sequence  SPOILER: Show
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So, this “covenant” between Man and God has Lilith fulfilling at least part of the role of Jesus in the Bible’s New Covenant. Her body is sacrificed via crucifixion (etc.) in a covenant of blood, and the intended result is human instrumentality, described by Seele 01 as “the peaceful purification of all souls”.

C. Original Sin

What’s the significance of “purification”? While perhaps not the most overt hint, the one that gives the greatest amount of direction to the audience is provided in Eva 2.0, when Gendo and Fuyutsuki are beholding the hellish South Pole.

Eva 2.0 Dansubs wrote:FUYUTSUKI:  
This is our Mother Earth?
It pains me just to look.

GENDO:     
Yes, but there are those who desired this outcome.
A world untainted by original sin that no man may enter.
     
FUYUTSUKI:
I prefer a chaotic world that's been soiled by man.
     
GENDO:
Chaos is in the eye of the beholder.
The world is always comprised of harmony and order.
     
FUYUTSUKI:
The human heart is at fault for the world's corruption?


For the sake of emphasis, here are Gendo’s key lines as rendered by the original fansub — clunkier and more literal, meaning nothing is glossed over:

Eva Ha Github Translation wrote:GENDO:
However, there are also people who hoped for this disastrous spectacle.
Cleansed of the original sin, it is a purified world that man cannot set foot within.

While Japanese is often ambiguous about quantity, Gendo is indeed referring to plural people here (“those who desired”, negatta-monotachi).

So… A purified world cleansed of Original Sin, where we corrupt humans do not dare to tread. As of 2.0, it was easy to guess that Gendo was talking about Seele here, since who else could possibly want that, but all doubt is removed as of Q. The South Pole is hidden beneath Gates of Guf that are in a suspended state from Second Impact; and these things opening up (and staying open) is an integral part of Seele’s Fourth Impact plans.

Gates of Guf  SPOILER: Show
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Furthermore, the reference to purification ties neatly into Seele 01’s desire for the “purification of all souls”. But there’s more! Notice the reference to Original Sin. What has been staring us in the face since the promotional campaign for the first film?

Logos  SPOILER: Show
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Nerv’s logo always had a (half-a-)fig leaf in it, a straightforward allusion to Original Sin, since the leaves of the fig tree are what Adam and Eve used to conceal their privates after they ate the Fruit of Knowledge and became ashamed of their nudity for the first time. But NTE enhanced these allusions in what at first seemed like a laughably on-the-nose maneuver even for Eva. I mean, look at these! (see previous spoiler box)

Nerv’s fancier logo (the movies still use the original one too, for some reason) now includes an apple (traditionally used to represent the Fruit of Knowledge, even though the apple is not native to the Middle East), with a bite taken out of it that’s shaped like half a fig leaf. (I don’t think I would ever have guessed that was supposed to be a bite unless Newtype coverage had explained it to us way back when.) Seele’s updated logo is especially a riot. It includes all of the elements of their original logo, but now it has a motherfuckin’ snake wrapped ominously around an (intact) apple! Without any further context, this addition feels like it exists for no other reason than to loudly advertise, “LOOK AT US! WE’RE THE BAD GUYS!” The aggressive narm of the visual design is almost ingenious in how effectively it distracts the viewer from the layers of meaning buried in the NTE symbol.

While Nerv’s logo represents Original Sin in its fulfilled form, Seele’s symbol shows the Biblical agent of Original Sin — the serpent who tempted Eve to eat the Fruit of Knowledge. In the previous thread, I started to touch upon the concept of Original Sin, specifically in terms of it being a theme around Shinji’s character. Relevant posts:

- Kaworu as Adam, Shinji as Eve in Garden of Eden metaphor
- Lilith’s role in Second Impact and link to Eva-01

Quick summary: In the examples looked at, Shinji generally represents the figure of Eve (which ties into how he’s probably the original soul of Eva-01 in this continuity). His actions cause the fall of Kaworu (="Adam"), in a sequence that involves a serpentine Angel that turns into an “apple” that is then devoured by Eva-13 (an “Eve” that is also an “Adam”). Shinji’s pursuit of Rei, which precipitates Near Third Impact, is identified with Original Sin via the mysterious title given to Eva-01’s reactivation BGM (“Sin From Genesis”), and is one of the clues I used to piece together a key part of Second Impact. That is, Lilith’s core was used as a catalyst to divide Adam into four beings, with “Luvah” (Shinji/Eva-01) being the first one to break off so that he could obtain Lilith’s core, and with it the Fruit of Knowledge. (The original write-ups are a bit more lucid, obviously.)


Next post, I will backtrack slightly and finish touching upon Seele’s relationship with Lilith. More exhaustive coverage of such things as Original Sin will occur as the thread progresses.

EDIT: Added bad "keiyaku" joke that is all BlueBasilisk's fault, and expanded "True Gospel" write-up.
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby pwhodges » Fri May 01, 2020 3:15 am

View Original PostReichu wrote: Gendo and Fuyutsuki let us know that Seele plan to use Mark.06 to create this “true god” of theirs.

Do you yet have any theory as to why this role passed from Mark06 to Eva13 ?
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby intermediateO » Fri May 01, 2020 9:04 am

Just a quick question, cause I've never seen anyone adress it, even though it's been something in the back of my mind since 1.0.

Has anyone adressed the theory of Classic Purple Mask Giant being Lilith actually, and Dogma Angel Mask Giant being Adam/an Adams?

Just on a surface level, when I saw 1.0 originally, as a fan of the old series, it was kinda hard to not get to the final scene after enjoying all the updated designs and not go, "Wait. That's old Lilith. But. But new Lilith is in Dogma and all new and stuff."

There's probably something really simple that can flush this theory down the pooper, but I do like the potential theming though, of both Misato and Kaworu being told the wrong giant is in the basement again.

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Fri May 01, 2020 9:57 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Do you yet have any theory as to why this role passed from Mark06 to Eva13 ?

We have something, definitely! BlueBasilisk and I stumbled on a previously-unconsidered angle just the other day, funny enough, so there is active revision and reassessment happening even as I put the thread together. I don't expect all of the pieces to fit together perfectly, since we're still missing part of the story and hence a fair amount of context, but there will, at least, be plenty of observations to share. Breakdowns like this should (hopefully) go a long way toward making Shin less inscrutable when it finally arrives.

I'm not sure how many steps will be required to reach "Seele's plans in the present day", but it will come. The first phase of the thread is establishing a grounded basis for the distant past and its relevance to the overall story. :emogendo: Very tricky stuff, hence the slow-burn beginning.

View Original PostintermediateO wrote:Has anyone adressed the theory of Classic Purple Mask Giant being Lilith actually, and Dogma Angel Mask Giant being Adam/an Adams?

I'll be revisiting this tangle in an upcoming post, actually! It's a write-up I'm really looking forward to. A lot of strange things should hopefully click into place at that time. :nyao:
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby intermediateO » Fri May 01, 2020 10:44 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I'll be revisiting this tangle in an upcoming post, actually! It's a write-up I'm really looking forward to. A lot of strange things should hopefully click into place at that time. :nyao:


Oooou. I'm actually surprised there wasn't a hard rejection of the idea.

Can I ask if Cassius plays a role at all?

I always thought it was suspicious that we've only ever seen it associated with the Moon Giant/Mark 6.

We've seen the 4 lances of the 4 "Adams" only ever have the style of the TV Longinus, and when we finally think we are gonna see Longinus and Cassius exist side-by-side in 3.0, the two spears are identical, calling into question if one of them is even Cassius at all.

If we carry over the idea from TV that the Giants have unique Fruit, either Life or Knowledge, it doesn't seem too farfetched that the two classes of Giants might also have unique Spears, Longinus or Cassius.

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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 06, 2020 3:09 am

Picking up from last time...

D. The Serpent

The reason I bring all of this up is that the serpent in Seele’s symbol isn’t there simply to make them look sinister (though it does achieve that as well). Think about it… The Serpent, which is possessively coiled around the Fruit of Knowledge, is juxtaposed directly against the elements of Seele’s original logo.

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Those elements are the Seven Eyes of God along with a triangle that is split in two down the middle, such that it is three triangles in one, making it a reference to the Holy Trinity. The Serpent is directly superimposed over iconography of God. Who is God (or “God”, if you prefer)? Lilith.* So… is Lilith the Serpent, too?

* (As explained in the “Covenant” section.)

Lilith being God is a fairly unique part of Eva’s mythology, but Lilith being the Serpent is actually nothing new. It’s in The Zohar, for example. Lilith’s reputation as a demonic temptress and harlot works rather organically with the Serpent’s role in seducing Eve. This stuff gets pretty weird, like with Lilith as the Serpent literally seducing Eve to the point of impregnating her with Cain…!

Incidentally, none of that is too weird for Eva, since, for example, Eva 2.0 ends with Eva-01 and a giant Rei merging together. Both participants have blissed-out looks on their faces, and the result of their fusion is the “birth of a new lifeform” — the sex metaphor is fairly overt. Of note is that Rei/Lilith is the, um, “penetrative” partner, i.e., the one who goes inside the body of the other.

In other words: Lilith “impregnates” Eva (=Eve). Just what you’d expect from the master, and so on and so forth…

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^ click for bigger
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So, to get back on track… what is the role of the Serpent, traditionally? It brings the Fruit of Knowledge to humanity, which results in Original Sin. We know that both normal humans (or Lilin) and the members of Seele possess the Fruit of Knowledge, but where did they get it in the first place? Well, presumably from Lilith. Identifying Lilith with the Serpent makes sense in terms of her being the Keeper of the Fruit of Knowledge. It also might hint that Original Sin — whatever exactly it is in the NTE universe — traces back to her in some way. (To be further explored later in the thread.)

Possibly supplementing the identification of Eva’s Lilith with the Serpent is a symbol from the wacky world of alchemy (from which NTE takes a fair amount of inspiration): the Crucified Serpent.

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Along with various other alchemy-related leads, this is something I need to do some actual real research on (maybe, eventually), but from the odd bit of lazy googling, it seems promising. The stuff about “purification” is totally on point. The serpent’s ancient association with death and rebirth is also clearly relevant.

Now, with this “Lilith=Serpent” idea in hand, let’s take another look at Lilith’s state in Q. While Lilith is obviously humanoid, her insides are bursting with a gazillion noodle-like threads.

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It’s not clear at all what these are supposed to represent, short of Anno being incredibly silly with his food allusions (Lilith is a soba bowl… the Spears are chopsticks… you see where this is going, right?). But now there exists the bizarre possibility that they represent countless little eyeless, or alternatively headless, snakes! (Eyeless because Lilith has, at least currently, no eyes; headless because Lilith herself is in a decapitated state.)
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If true, her insides exploding with tiny serpents visually suggests that the Serpent is Lilith’s hidden true nature finally coming to the surface. The fact that there are so many could be in reference to Lilith’s enigmatic plurality, a concept that carries over from NGE to NTE, expressed primarily through Lilith’s avatar Rei.

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^ (look behind Eva-13)


And, yes, we also see those same noodle-snakes on one of the Failures, but we’re also going to heed Kaworu’s advice and not worry about those accursed core-Evas. At least, not for RIGHT this moment.

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In addition to this, notice both the grid-patterned scoring* on Lilith’s skin, and how in many places her skin looks like it’s peeling off. The scoring creates what could be stylized scales, which would make her skin peeling off an allusion to snakes shedding their skin. As insane as this comparison must sound, it actually fits perfectly: snakes shedding their skin is a symbol for renewal or rebirth, and Lilith is on the brink of being resurrected. (Given that Lilith’s tattered skin is bursting with a myriad snakes, however, I’m almost afraid to ask what Lilith’s resurrected form would look like…)

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* (Note: I’m aware that the grid pattern is a recurrent visual motif in Q — a reference to a shogi board, perhaps. In this context, I’m not attempting to deny the “shogi board” theme; rather, I’m suggesting an additional purpose that the visual element could serve in Lilith’s case.)

Lilith being a giant snake lady may also provide the necessary context for making sense (or, at least, beginning to) of the 12th Angel. We see the 12th Angel take on three distinct forms: serpent, Rei head, and giant embryo.

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The middle one is very obviously influenced by Lilith, since it takes on that form as it sloshes around in / absorbs Lilith’s dissolved body. The giant embryo can be interpreted as a representation of Lilith’s successful physical resurrection. So then, what would the serpent be? If Forms 2 and 3 are representations of Lilith, and Lilith=Serpent, then it logically follows that Form 1 is a representation of Lilith As The Serpent — and, hence, that the 12th Angel is being used to showcase three different facets of Lilith.

This, naturally, raises a LOT of pretty weird questions about why this specific Angel is being used for this purpose — like, what’s its original “pre-Lilith” nature? Is there any way to know? (Yes, possibly, but I’ll hold onto that speculah for now.) Plus there’s the weirdness of the serpent form emerging from Mark.06 specifically. What the hell is that all about? How does my “the Angel is a mirror to Lilith” argument work in light of that?

It’s no secret that these films have been rather overtly identifying Mark.06 with Lilith from the very beginning. The trick has been figuring out precisely where Mark.06 fits within NTE’s mythology. For now, I will say: Mark.06 is absolutely, 100% connected to Lilith on a very intimate level. A detailed explanation pertaining to how this can be so — considering Mark.06’s also extremely overt identification with the Adams — will come a little later in the thread, once I have established the proper context for such an explanation to even make sense. The serpent imagery will be revisited at that time.

(Many of you will probably be able to see elements of the argument taking form before I arrive at the post in question. If you know where things are headed, try not to spoil things for the others too much. :wink:)


One more section for Part I coming up, and then we get to start going down the rabbit hole.
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Giji Shinka » Wed May 06, 2020 4:46 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:This, naturally, raises a LOT of pretty weird questions about why this specific Angel is being used for this purpose — like, what’s its original “pre-Lilith” nature? Is there any way to know? (Yes, possibly, but I’ll hold onto that speculah for now.) Plus there’s the weirdness of the serpent form emerging from Mark.06 specifically. What the hell is that all about? How does my “the Angel is a mirror to Lilith” argument work in light of that?

My question is that did Seele intend to use serpentine 12th angel (and did they know what the angel would be a snake based on dead sea scrolls) with Mark.06 in their original plan and what about Unit-01/10th angel? Is there some symbolism going with that angel too?
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed May 06, 2020 6:12 am

I wonder how much Eva Unit 01 actually represents some sort of “Eve.” I mean, it’s totally possible and kinda awesome, and it stays true to the Lilith/Eve dichotomy from certain versions of the Abrahamic Creation account. But, at the same time, in that scene in 2.22 Eva Unit 01 seems to have the color scheme of the Whore of Babylon as described in Revelation 17:4.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication

In the final scene in 2.22 Unit 01 is purple with red highlights and a golden colored hand that bitchslaps angles. Maybe this is a sign that Unit 01 isn’t a “True Eva?” (As Seele pointed out before?) Instead of a “True Eve,” Eva Unit 01 is a “Whore of Babylon.”

I dunno. It’s just a thought and might mean absolutely nothing or have nothing to do with anything Eva. I could be projecting my own perspectives here. Also, in the rest of the passage the Whore is also described to be riding on a red beast with seven heads and ten horns, which Eva hasn’t shown us. (At least, not yet. But if Unit 02’s final Beast Mode in Shin Eva is a seven-headed, ten-horned creature that teams up with Unit 01 in the big, climactic battle, that would be amazing.)
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Shun » Wed May 06, 2020 7:38 am

Wow! These speculations are very detailed! Great!
I hadn't tried to look details and references, but in my head I thought the link between the Seele, an ancient civilization and the core technology (monoliths), I had also thought about the new Seele logo. In particular I had notice this:

In the Bible Eva falls into the snake trap and tastes the Fruit of knowledge. But since Lilith is present in Evangelion, and she is the divine entity associated with this FoK, I thought that she could be the element to consider for this role. Then:
* Snake: Entity that causes betrayal -> Fruit of Knowledge -> Lilith
* Apple: Fruit of Life -> Adam
* Mask with 7 Eyes: God -> Infinity

If the snake indicates a betrayal that occurred in ancient times, Seele could have played a role in this thing, for example by supporting the entity that carried out the betrayal, that is, Lilith.
Perhaps in ancient times Adam (FoL) and Lilith (FoK) were a single ancestral entity (7 eyes) which then split, or there was an ancestral zero entity (7 eyes + FoL) and Lilith broke it ... the giant mouth, the Infinity ... maybe they are things related to First Impact.

My speculation is:
1st: division of Infinity due to Lilith (betrayal);
2nd: approach between Adam and Lilith, division of Adam into the 4 Adams;
Near3rd: approach between the soul of Lilith and Adams-01;
4th: approach between the body of Lilith, Adams-13 and Adams.06;
Final: Adam + Lilith -> Infinity --> WIP

Btw, the text of the Seele (Ode to Joy) is also interesting:
Ueberm sternenzelt richtet gott wie wir gerichtet
From above the firmament God judges as we have judged.

WIP: World Instrumentality Project?

I await the next posts! :D
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 06, 2020 8:18 am

View Original PostShun wrote:Wow! These speculations are very detailed! Great!

Thank you very much! :D

There are some things you mention that are slated to be in my write-up, but it's not a big deal. :wink: I already "spoiled" (in the first post's "Proposition") how the thread will eventually look into Seele belonging to a race of forerunners, and how First Impact has important significance to NTE's back story. Well, you do mention one not-yet-revealed deduction I'm rather proud of, but nobody has to know which thing in your post that is until a little later...

Some of your suggestions could help fill in gaps in my and BlueBasilisk's ideas later on. For my part I feel the creation of a being with seven souls and seven eyes is fairly inevitable in Shin, though I've been referring to this hypothetical being as the "True Evangelion". (I still have no idea what the movies are REALLY getting at with "Infinity" and a bunch of headless Eva-01 copies that have failed to achieve it, other than the obvious Fruit of Life allusion.) That this might be a recreation of a being that existed once before is interesting, and rather Eva-like; I'll have to contemplate the possibility.

"WIP" is just short for "Work in Progress". It's to let people know not to expect a finished presentation from the thread yet. :tongue:

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I wonder how much Eva Unit 01 actually represents some sort of “Eve.” I mean, it’s totally possible and kinda awesome, and it stays true to the Lilith/Eve dichotomy from certain versions of the Abrahamic Creation account. But, at the same time, in that scene in 2.22 Eva Unit 01 seems to have the color scheme of the Whore of Babylon as described in Revelation 17:4.

It's not a matter of either/or. Entities in Eva take on symbolic associations freely and without limit. (I did know about the Revelation allusions, and didn't bring them up simply because they haven't been relevant to the context... yet.)

Giji Shinka wrote:My question is that did Seele intend to use serpentine 12th angel (and did they know what the angel would be a snake based on dead sea scrolls) with Mark.06 in their original plan and what about Unit-01/10th angel? Is there some symbolism going with that angel too?

What do you mean by "symbolism"? The "serpent" that turns into an "apple" thing?
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Shun » Wed May 06, 2020 9:54 am

Ok, I'm glad I didn't spoiler anything, and I wasn't expecting to guess something ... I'm really curious, good work! :D

WIP = Work In Progress >_< I really thought it was a clue! :lol:
Btw, WIP like World Instrumentality Project could be an idea if the final divinity (Infinity? Shin Evangelion?) were to have the power to change (Kaworu says 変える) and/or rebuild (Fuyutsuki says 作り直す) the world. Not necessarily the Earth, if the "world of harmony" were a spiritual version of the world, like Shambhala, it could be a nice idea. Unless the "world of harmony" is divinity himself.
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Giji Shinka » Thu May 07, 2020 2:46 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:What do you mean by "symbolism"? The "serpent" that turns into an "apple" thing?

If the 12th angel represents the serpent/apple and is part of Lilith and her resurrection, then what about 10th angel? Does the whole Eva-01/10th angel/Rei - Lilith sequence have anything (similar) going on? Do you think it means anything else other than a sex metaphor?
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 07, 2020 3:08 am

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:If the 12th angel represents the serpent/apple and is part of Lilith and her resurrection, then what about 10th angel? Does the whole Eva-01/10th angel/Rei - Lilith sequence have anything (similar) going on? Do you think it means anything else other than a sex metaphor?

(Reminds me I forgot to include the apple in the list of "12th Angel forms that represent Lilith". I'll fix it later.)

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the stuff happening at Near Third Impact was only a sex metaphor or anything, if it came off that way. There's definitely a lot of... ceremonial wackiness, for lack of better term, happening during that sequence. At some point I hope to dive into the practical implementation of Seele's plan and how Gendo's maneuvers intersect and interfere with these. The in-depth treatment of that will probably not come until Pt.III, though. (I hate having to say "It will come later" over and over, but hopefully the methodical approach will pay off in the end.)
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Fri May 15, 2020 3:25 am

E. Divine Numbers (Especially Seven)

1. Background

Seele's symbol  SPOILER: Show
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NTE brings this Biblical symbol back from NGE. So, to start with, what is it actually referencing?

Bunch of Bible quotes  SPOILER: Show
  • Zechariah 3:9 – For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
  • Zechariah 4:10 - For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
  • Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
  • Revelation 1:4 - John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
  • Revelation 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
  • Revelation 4:5 - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
  • Isaiah 11:2 - And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD

In the interest of transparency, I rely upon lazy Googling for my Bible knowledge, and my sources are thus: 1 | 2 | 3

Here are the tidbits that, to my untrained eyes, seem the most (potentially) relevant for our purposes:

  • The number 7 Biblically represents perfection or completeness.
  • The “Lamb” in Revelation 5:6 is Jesus.
  • Horns are a symbol of power (see 2 Chronicles 18:9-11 and Daniel 8:5-7).
  • Spiritually the “eye” represents the desire of the heart (see Matthew 6:21-23 and Luke 11:34-36).
  • The seven “Spirits of God” represent the different ways that the Holy Spirit works depending on the needs of the time and place.
  • The Seven Spirits are (1) the Spirit of the Lord, (2) the Spirit of wisdom, (3) the Spirit of understanding, (4) the Spirit of counsel, (5) the Spirit of might, (6) the Spirit of knowledge and (7) the Spirit of fear of the Lord.
  • The Seven Spirits may also represent the seven graces (Romans 12:6–8): 1. insight (prophecy); 2. helpfulness (service or ministry); 3. instruction (teaching); 4. encouragement; 5. generosity (giving); 6. guidance (leadership); and 7. compassion.
Also look at this write-up, which takes an integrated and scholarly look at the passages quoted previously. Lots of information concentrated here.

Since the references that make it into Eva get recontextualized for the needs of setting and story, we don’t have to go crazy here about precision and accuracy — just the broad strokes are needed. For now, we’re going to focus on the stuff about seven eyes and seven spirits (but the thing about horns may come in handy later, you just never know… :wink: ).

There are four places (that I can remember) where we see it: Seele’s logo*, Lilith’s eye bolts, Mark.06’s mask, and Mark.09’s core protector.

SPOILER: Show
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^ (Look inside the eye sockets VERY closely.)
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*(It only occurs to me very late in the post-writing process that I’ve committed the brain fart of grouping together all instances of Seele’s logo appearing as if there is nothing significant about the different places it appears, which is indeed a grave mistake I will have to come back later and correct. I’m quite tired, you see...)

Here are the genga for Lilith and Mk.06 to make their instances easier to see:

SPOILER: Show
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Before anything else, let me point out an interesting change from the NGE version of the “7 Eyes” symbol. In that version, there is a distinctive line going down that middle that divides the triangle in two, thereby giving us a Trinity (three triangles) out of another Trinity (triangle). This line also divides three of the eyes from the other four. (Offhand I can’t think of any reason for this other than “the seven eyes are the seven Seeds of Life, and they’re being divided according to what Fruit they possess; but unless seven alien progenitors were already on the team’s collective mind when the OP was storyboarded, the motivation behind the design choice must be something else.)

However, in the NTE version, the dividing line either doesn’t cut through the triangle all the way (Seele symbol)

SPOILER: Show
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or it isn’t there at all (see Lilith, Mk.06, and Mk.09 above). What does this mean? I don’t have a definitive answer, but I have some ideas.

2. Lilith’s Resurrection & The True God

Biblically, the number three signifies harmony, God’s presence, and completeness. So it being paired up with seven in a symbol that represents the divine makes perfect (o ho ho) sense. Removing the dividing line unifies the seven eyes — they are now separated by nothing. The simple version of the symbol — nothing more than triangle and eyes — appears on Lilith, Mk.06, and Mk.09. Is there any significance here?

Indeed there is! What these beings all have in common (according to me) is that they are involved in Seele’s efforts to resurrect Lilith.

Lilith: Seele’s God whom they are attempting to “resurrect”.
Mark.06: The being through whom Seele initially seek to resurrect their God.
Mark.09: The receptacle for Lilith’s soul in Seele’s Plan C* (see here).

* (Plan A = before Gendo awakens Eva-01; Plan B = 3rd Impact; Plan C = 4th Impact.)

With Eva-13 being the vessel for Lilith’s body in Plan C, does this mean that maybe 13 has the “7 Eyes” hidden on it somewhere? (Remember, both 06 and 09 have the symbol hidden beneath their armor, and we haven’t really seen under 13’s armor… yet, anyway.)

There is SO much more I could say about all this… but, alas, this is just supposed to be an introductory segment, so I will have to delay such things for later… Specifically, for Part III, where we’ll dig into the nitty gritty of the various recipes on How To Turn A Sinister Serpent Into A True God. But suffice it to say, the symbology of the seven eyes is super important to Lilith’s resurrection and the creation of the True Evangelion.

However! In the great Eva spirit of excruciating delays, here are some teasers for Shin-relevant analysis/speculah that I will not explain at all right now:

These took forever to put together, especially the second one  SPOILER: Show
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Re: Thrice Upon A Humanity: The Deep Lore of NTE [WIP]

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Postby Reichu » Fri May 15, 2020 3:33 am

(Splitting this in two to make it easier to link to specific parts later.)

3. Seven. Seven? Seven!

So, to get through the rest of the material I had lined up for this section... The number “seven”, being of the Godly numbers and all, naturally has to show up a few more times.

Lilith’s mask* has two holes for the eye sockets, and driven into each one is a bolt or a nail. (This explains why the unmasked Lilith in 3.0 has big bloody pits where eyes should be.) On the head of each bolt, we of course have the Seven Eyes symbol. But what’s this? Each bolt has a seven-sided head has as well!

* (That’s what the CRC calls it, anyway. I feel like something weirder has to be going on, since this feature appears on Eva-01 when she merges with Lilith’s soul — implying it’s somehow intrinsic to Lilith — and it’s part of the anatomy of multiple Angels.)

SPOILER: Show
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Another Lilith-related seven is the rainbow, previously mentioned under the Covenant section. These appear when an Angel is slain as a sign of the pact’s fulfillment, though there are some interesting irregularities that have important repercussions for analysis. See: Gallery of rainbows in NTE.

Mark.06, being closely linked to Lilith (for mysterious reasons I won’t even attempt to explain until later), is naturally associated with the number seven as well:

  • The seventh Eva in the Eva Series.
  • Built at Tabgha — “seven springs” — Base, which is the 7th branch of Nerv.
  • Has a mask with the Seven Eyes of God upon it.
There’s also Eva-02’s panther form, which is triggered with the code “777” (spoken “triple seven”). A trinity of 7s means you get an ultra-high-concentrated dose of divinity — though why this manifests as an exploding cyborg cat, I have no idea. With more obvious (to me) applications to the material, “777” plays off “666”, which is (the more popular variant on) the Number of the Beast. Eva-02’s previously shown “beast mode” was triggered with the code “The Beast”. In contrast to the lucky 777 kitty, who helps stop Fourth Impact by taking out half of the Impact machinery (i.e., Mark.09), the unlucky Za Bīsuto acts as a stand-in for the scarlet beast of the book of Revelation, who ushers in the Whore of Babylon. (So we can call Shinji’s mom a whore and be perfectly accurate.)

REVELATION!  SPOILER: Show
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Relevant Bible quote:

Revelation 17:3-4 wrote:3 And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

For some extra 7s, we have Rei’s weird facility which is comprised of seven cannisters; one of the Adams has a core with six smaller round thingies around it; and the water purification plant has seven channels coming in from the ocean (plus seven round blue thingies further back):

SPOILER: Show
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There’s one more seven I’m going to look at before I wrap this up, and it’s important enough that I’m giving it its own section. Feel free to report more sevens in the comments — never know, they might be important...

4. The Seven Members of Seele

If we look at the full Seele symbol again, we see that the Seven Eyes are flanking the Serpent, which is depicted as a two-eyed being.

SPOILER: Show
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If you recall, the Serpent acts (at least in part) as a representation of Lilith, who does indeed have two eyes. But said eyes are also gouged out, and replaced with what? The Seven Eyes symbol. Here it is again:

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^ Included as grotesque reminder that the bolts were in fact driven into Lilith’s eye sockets and they did in fact gouge her eyeballs out.


But why has Lilith been blinded like this? Consider her covenant with Seele… This pact includes elements of both the Old and New Testament, with a series of blood sacrifices (the Angels) paving the way for the death and resurrection of Lilith herself. The sacrifice of the Angels to God (Lilith) fulfills an Eva version of the Noahic Covenant, the ultimate purpose being rather concisely stated here:

Each time a blood sacrifice was made, the one giving it was reminded of the cost of sin.

Here, the cost of sin is the Great Flood. The death of every Angel provides a reminder of this. (I should probably have included this stuff in the “Covenant” section in the first place, but… I’ll move things around later as needed.)

The ultimate goal, of course, is to use Lilith herself as a means of absolving humanity of its sins, by (presumably) resurrecting her into a more divine state and having her use her new super-deity powers to purify humanity through Instrumentality, or... something to that effect.

To get to the point: Lilith’s own blood is part of the pact. And, before we see the pact’s ultimate fulfillment, Lilith is already busy bleeding — presumably to show she’s making good on her part of the agreement. This is what the crucifixion represents. Could this explain her blinding, as well? Does the loss of her eyes symbolize some kind of agreement?

Well… think about it. In place of Lilith’s eyes: the Seven Eyes symbol. Who does Lilith have the covenant with? Seven monolith-people adorned with the Seven Eyes.

Seele x7  SPOILER: Show
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So, on one level, the “Seven Eyes of God” are none other than Seele! Lilith is using them to keep an eye on things and act on her behalf. The ritualistic blinding is thus a blood sacrifice that indicates Lilith has entrusted them with Her will. That this functions on the level of some metaphysical agreement is implied heavily in 3.0. Lilith clearly changed shape and grew in size before her decapitation, but her eyes were not restored. Now, pay close attention to Lilith-related affairs right before and right after Seele’s deaths:

Screenshots are in chronological order  SPOILER: Show
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^ Lilith has no eyes.
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^ The Lilith head formed by the 12th Angel + Lilith has no eyes, either.
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^ Seele are released from their prisons of core.
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^ Lilith’s resurrected body... HAS EYES!!


Immediately after we see Seele perish, we’re shown Lilith’s new body, regenerated via the 12th Angel. AND IT HAS EYES! This makes perfect sense according to the idea outlined above. Lilith sacrifices her eyes as a show of solidarity with Seele; when Seele are gone, the agreement is over, and she can have her eyes back.


That post was much, much longer than I originally planned. Which is a good thing, I suppose, considering how utterly anemic my initial draft was. You all lucked out, didn’t ya!

Next time, we begin Part II: Signs of an Ancient World. Look forward to it!
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」


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