Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Kamon-san » Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:16 pm

I just finished watching episode 24 and now I really need some clarification about Kaworu and SEELE. I've know this show for twenty years now and I still am left confused about episode 24; if a friend were to ask me to explain exactly what went down in this episode and why it happened, I would be embarrassed to have to admit I never fully understood it. I'm sick of this feeling and I wish to finally put this confusion to rest.

First of all, I would like to try to put into clear words how I understood the origins of the Angels and humans. If I got this part wrong, then most likely everything else won't make sense and it would explain why I can't understand the episode.

The first ancestral race would plant seeds of life or seeds of wisdom onto planets in order to populate them. If it's a seed of life, the world will be populated by Angels; if it's a seed of wisdom, the world will be populated by humans. (Did I even get this part right?)

Earth is unique in the sense that it possesses both seeds of life AND wisdom. Originally the Earth only hosted the seed of life (Adam), however a seed of wisdom fell upon Earth (First impact). It became the black moon situated in the Geofront (Lilith), from which humanity was born. In Antartica there was still the seed of life (Adam), however it remained asleep because of its Lance of Longinus. (...am I wrong now? :bigeyes: )

The first ancestral race left ancient scriptures on earth which were discovered by SEELE a long time ago. These were the ''Dead Sea Scrolls'', and based on this discovery SEELE began to orchestrate their Human Instrumentality Plan. (I hope I'm still right so far :facepalm: )

SEELE seems to want to force humanity to evolve into a common entity by merging all living beings into one by triggering a Third Impact that they would control. (Is this correct?)

Based on what they learned from the Dead Sea Scrolls, I assume that SEELE believe that the Angel's basic instinct if they were to awaken would be to try to reunite with Adam in order to claim back the world from the Lilims and wipe all human life. Since the Angels are creatures born from the seed of life, its natural for them to want to wipe out creatures born from the seed of wisdom and claim back the Earth. (...is this also correct?)

NOW my questions begin:

-What exactly is SEELE's goal in creating the Evangelion? What plans did they have for the Eva?

-I seem to remember learning that Eva 01 was created from Lilith, however is this correct? Am I wrong to assume that this makes Eva 01 different from the other Eva units? If Eva 01 is indeed created from Lilith, what does that mean to SEELE?

-When SEELE organized the Katsuragi expedition to Antartica to excavate Adam and the Spear of Longinus, what were their intentions at the time?

...and now my biggest source of confusion: Kaworu.

Kaworu is described as the ''last Angel'', however it is also said that within him he possesses the soul of Adam, the ''first Angel''. He seems to believe that within Terminal Dogma he will be reunited with Adam and that this will cause humanity to perish.

We discover that SEELE sent Kaworu to NERV knowing very well that he was an Angel. In fact, it seems they were the ones who discovered him when he was ''born'' on the day of Second Impact. We then find out that the reason they sent Kaworu to NERV is to ''speed things up'' toward their ultimate goal.

...HOW? My head hurts from thinking about it all. :facepalm: What is SEELE intending to do by sending Kaworu to NERV? What do they want exactly? What is the outcome they desire and why does it sound like they are doing it out of spite toward Gendo Ikari?

When Kaworu comes face to face with Lilith he seems shocked to discover that it is not Adam in front of him, but that it is in fact Lilith. He seems to realize something crucial and decides that he desires to die, asking Shinji to end his life so that humanity can survive.

Does this mean that like the other Angels Kaworu believes that NERV is actually holding ADAM in Terminal Dogma and that they are trying to prevent Angels from coming into contact with it because that would cause Third Impact?

What causes such a change of heart in him when he discovers that it is in fact Lilith in Terminal Dogma?

I'm so lost... what does SEELE want from Kaworu? What did they tell him? What are Kaworu's intentions before discovering Lilith and why does that seem to change?

Sometimes I feel like I am missing the most crucial chunks of information on this series, it makes me feel ashamed to admit I suppose I really don't understand it so well after all. :sniffle:

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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Derantor » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:05 pm

As far as I understand it:

Kamon-san wrote:-What exactly is SEELE's goal in creating the Evangelion? What plans did they have for the Eva?

Destroy the Angels so that they can have their Impact/Instrumentality.
Kamon-san wrote:If Eva 01 is indeed created from Lilith, what does that mean to SEELE?

It seems that they need Lilith in some form, for her fruit of life. She is the progenitor of all life on earth, after all. Unit 01 can act as a standin, which would be another reason to create the Evas: "An ark to save humanity", even though the exact meaning is unclear to me.
Kamon-san wrote:-When SEELE organized the Katsuragi expedition to Antartica to excavate Adam and the Spear of Longinus, what were their intentions at the time?

My guess is that they wanted to start Instrumentality right then and there but failed. If nothing else, they wanted to use the advanced technology for themselves.

Kamon-san wrote:We then find out that the reason they sent Kaworu to NERV is to ''speed things up'' toward their ultimate goal.... HOW?

Kaworu is an angel, all angels need to die, NERV kills angels. :shrug: Other than that, that episode is a complete mystery to me. Whether or not Kaworu was tricked or just plays along with the lie is just as unclear as to why he decides to not go through with his plan, unless he planned to die from the very beginning.

His conversation with SEELE makes it seem as if they want to support him, since he is the "True" seed, while the Lilin are the false successors. They tell him outright that Adams body exists within Ikari - so his confusion in terminal dogma is strange. They also tell him that Gendo wants to become god - I can only assume that Kaworu would not want that, and since Gendo took in Adams body, he might just object to the idea that his power is (ab)used. The lure for Kaworu seems to be the chance to become one with his own body again, like Rei does in EoE, and then take over the earth for the angels, but he doesn't even attempt it, going instead straight for Lilith instead, even though he does know that it can not be Adam in Central Dogma, as he carries the soul and the body is with Gendo. Unless he doesn't believe SEELE, of course, thinks that they switched Adam and Lilith around in their descriptions.

For SEELE, it would (maybe) make sense if they sent Kaworu to kill Gendo. This would get rid of their biggest enemy at that point, while at the same time being completely counterproductive, as they'd have a complete Adam to deal with again, free to trigger any Impact he wants - which can not be what SEELE wants, otherwise they would just have let some other Angel trigger it, as they have no control over what happens during it, and it is not clear if it would even start Instrumentality. Otherwise, there would no need for the huge efforts they go through in EoE to make sure. Maybe they hoped that he would kill Gendo, become a "true" angel again by reuniting with his body, then get killed himself by NERV, eliminating two enemies in one go. But honestly, considering the risks of sending Kaworu while he is aware that he is an angel are so huge that it doesn't make sense either way, at least to me.

As for Kaworu's change of heart: Maybe he truly did not want humanity to die. Maybe he truly fell in love with Shinji and thought he did him a favour by voluntarily dying. If that is to sweet for you, there is also the possibility that he simply had no way out anymore. He blew his chance to get his body back, as Rei was there in Central Dogma as well - and since another AT-field appeared, one can only assume that she had become aware of her true nature and her powers. Being a competing seed, she would never let him go freely, and in his state, he might not have a chance to defeat her. Thus, as a last cruelty, he played a little game with Shinji, feigning confusion and good intentions, when in reality, he just wanted to cause as much emotional pain as possible to him, and by extension, his Mother, Lilith. If that is too Adam Kadmon for you, there is also the possibility that he and Rei/Lilith had a mutual plan all along, can see the future and the past, and simply did what they needed to achieve their goals. Or maybe their alien reasoning is so far removed from our experience that we just can not get it.

So in essence: I got no clue, and I don't think we will ever have any definitive answers. And I think the DC-additions made the whole mess a million times worse.

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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Kamon-san » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:47 pm

The whole discussion Kaworu had with SEELE by the lake in the extended cut makes my head hurt and confuses me beyond belief. Before I saw this scene, I never had that hard a time understanding Kaworu.

The way I used to interpret Kaworu's change of heart in Terminal Dogma was this:

I used to think that Kaworu had been led to believe that Adam's body was in NERV/Gendo's possession. Like the other Angels, he wants to accomplish his mission and reclaim the world for the Angels so he makes his way to Terminal Dogma expecting to find Adam there. When he finally arrives in front of Lilith and discovers that it is not Adam, my initial thought was that at that moment Kaworu realized that there never was any hope for the Angels to reunite with Adam; in his eyes, Adam was never there to begin with. Kaworu realizes that the world belongs to the Lilim and that his mission can never be accomplished, so he asks Shinji to end his life. Kaworu truly did grow to love Lilims and care for Shinji's wellbeing, so he embraces death knowing that Shinji will live.

That was how I used to view the scene. Seeing Kaworu talk with SEELE before the whole thing in that extended cut I am SO confused now. :facepalm: I hope reading your thoughts on the whole thing might help me see more clearly.

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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Derantor » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:45 am

Heh, I doubt it, as there is no clarity in my thoughts either. Your original interpretation makes total sense, and I wish the DC Scenes were never added. It feels like there were some alterations to Kaworu's story, but somebody forgot to alter the already existing scenes, which is why we got those conflicting pieces of information. Like two drafts of a story being copied together.

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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:35 am

Episode 24' truly is a clusterfuck. It is a Lovecraftian abomination that the minds of mere mortals cannot comprehend.

That said, one probably important aspect of that episode's mindfuckiness is commonly overlooked: Kaworu going to the crater lake to speak with fifteen Seele monoliths (there are only twelve Seele members) which only he can see and hear makes absolutely no sense. Not unless you look beyond surface appearances.

What is the actual significance of the lake? It's the crater created by Eva-00 self-destructing to destroy Armisael. One of the weirder things about Armisael is that, right after its psychic encounter with Rei, where Rei teaches it about the concept of "loneliness", it causes a towering growth to burst out of Eva-00's back. This growth visibily incorporates the forms of all dead Angels aside from Ireul and Bardiel (and those are amorphous and would be difficult to convey in context). Since its formation is a direct response to Armisael learning about "loneliness", it's reasonable to guess that Armisael is attempting to resurrect the dead Angels by channeling their souls into Eva-00, an Adam clone. Why this process starts and then abruptly stops is an interesting question, and I wonder if it might have something to do with the "one-Angel limit" we see throughout the series -- that is, only one Angel is ever active at a time for reasons that are never explained. If there is an actual implicit reason for it, then it would go to follow that Armisael would not be able to successfully reincarnate the Angels, because this would require going beyond the One-Angel Limit. This could be Armisael's own motivation for wanting Eva-01, a Lilith clone -- it wants to use her to attempt to trigger an Impact and create a world that is Angel-friendly. (This isn't ignoring that PART of the reason Armisael targets Eva-01 is because it has become a reflection of Rei's heart in addition to itself, but the "Angel tower" demonstrates that Armisael is still engaging in behaviors that are personal and not rooted in Rei's psyche. Both Armi and Rei being able to satisfy their wishes with Eva-01 just makes their fusion more complete, if anything.)

If this is true, then the significance of the crater lake, for Kaworu, is that the Angels' souls are there. When Eva-00 exploded, Armisael and all the others were left behind, in spiritual form. And this is corroborated by the coding of the lake scene. All of the Angels up to this point have communicated with Lilin (or quasi-Lilin, in the case of Kaworu) by utilizing the memories of the one they're communicating with; it does not take much deduction to figure out that Seele were part of Kaworu's life. The monoliths have "Seele" (soul) written on them, which cooperates with the idea that they are representing individual souls here. Monoliths in NGE are also used to represent gravemarkers, hence the Angels' graves are being marked as well (since they are technically dead right now). The number of monoliths is on point: Angels 3~16 means 14 souls, with another soul thrown in to account for Israfel's dual nature, for fifteen souls altogether. Nearly all of the Seele dialogue here feels deliberately designed to invoke ambiguity: for example "there is a man who is not one of us" -- this could mean "not one of Seele", or "not one of us Angels". The cherry on top of everything is how, in the version of the Tokyo-3 topographic map seen in EoE, there is a quadrant of the crater lake marked "Psycho Hazard Area" (which has a >50% chance of being the quadrant where Kaworu's discussion with the monoliths takes place, based on where Misato's binoculars are aimed when she's spying in 24'). "Psycho Hazard" is meant to evoke "biohazard", but with the "bio-" part, implying physical life, replaced with "psycho-", implying spiritual life.

tl;dr: Kaworu is not actually talking to Seele at the lake; he is talking to the dead Angels. It's possible that a conversation Kaworu previously had with Seele (say, before he came to Tokyo-3, as this would have been a far more logical time for Seele to discuss their plans with him) is being played out again in a different context, and takes on a different meaning as a result. (For example: Seele would have called the Angels the "true successors" in an attempt to suck up to Kaworu; the Angels say it because that's what they actually believe.)

I've long felt that this might be the key to unlocking the mysteries of episode 24', in the right hands. I personally manage to get about this far and then my head promptly explodes from the next gauntlet of contradictions. This is part of the reason why I'm writing a completely alternate take to episode 24 where I only have to deal with Masayuki's insanity as much as I want to.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Kamon-san » Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:07 pm

I never even thought the SEELE monoliths during the lake scene could've been the voices of the defeated Angels! Now I need to rewatch the scene again and listen carefully to what they say.

Thank you Reichu for giving me this interesting take on it, I'll get back to it right now!

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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:42 am

I shared my post in the EGF Discord asking anyone for their thoughts, and it resulted in a spirited conversation. Unfortunately, it went as cross-eyed as basically every other attempt to make sense of 24' that I've ever participated in. Where Kaworu and Seele (and, to a lesser extent, additional players in the game) are concerned, it feels almost impossible to figure out who knows what, who wants what, who is only pretending to go along with something for the sake of tricking the other party, and so on. If any sense is going to be made out of the whole mess, I feel as though the "dead Angels" angle ought to be taken into consideration for the sake of completeness, but... Yeah, it feels like EVERYTHING comes back to the contradiction between Kaworu being blatantly told where Adam is (in a conversation that mentions the existence of Lilith and her link to the Black Moon, no less), and him going to precisely where Gendo isn't and acting surprised to find something other than Adam there.

One old bit of speculah that might be useful is the idea that Kaworu was, effectively, putting on a show for Rei's benefit, in order to instigate her spiritual awakening. Offhandedly, I can only think of one problem with this idea, and more things that support it. Earlier in the episode Kaworu goes right up to Rei and drops some major hints to her. (Gendo sees nothing wrong with Kaworu "making contact", either.) This is a pretty weird thing to do if Kaworu wants to keep Adam's ancient rival securely in a state of ignorance which would minimize the risk of her meddling with Kaworu's plans; in fact, it achieves the exact opposite. Kaworu looks up at Rei knowingly and smiles (a genuine smile, not one of his creepy smirks) before he declares his intent to die. Rei's expression changes VERY SUBTLY after this silent interchange, indicating that he has reached her in some way.

pics  SPOILER: Show
Image
^ Rei's expression changing
Image


Why in the world would Kaworu do any of this?

Kaworu is innately Adam, and so would likely have some instinct to ensure that the Angels get to live out proper lives as a race of their own. However, the Angels living on Earth, as was originally intended (because Adam landed there first), would at this point require annihilating the Lilith-based ecosphere far beyond the point seen in EoE. In EoE, it's "reset", but it can bounce back to its prior state; it's not reformatted into something entirely different. Kaworu seems to recognize that the "ship has sailed" for the Angels living on Earth, so he will not attempt to resurrect Adam and the Angels at this point in time. Instead, he attempts to appeal to Rei's true nature and gives her what she needs to set herself free -- feasibly with the intent of securing himself an ally in the Impact to come. Once Rei returns to Lilith, we see that she does in fact form a peaceful alliance with Adam. (N.B. This paragraph is based on a line of thought that Lavinius introduced me to, but I'm probably forgetting some specific details.)

But what then? How does Adam secure a future for herself and her children via Third Impact? Through Lilith's daughter, Eva-01. The "Angel ghosts" subplot from 23' and 24' actually does get picked up in 26' (part 2 of EoE), though it's conveyed in such an arcane manner that it would require much more work than I'm willing to put in RIGHT this moment to show it's not just something insane that I've hallucinated. :tongue: For now, the completely unsubstantiated cliff-notes version: when the giant Kaworu appears, right when Eva-01 becomes the Tree of Life, he is actually, uh, "inseminating" Eva-01 with the souls of the Angels. This entire scene (along with the scenes that follow it) is STEEPED in maternal imagery and themes, which ties perfectly in with the idea that Eva-01 is being prepared for motherhood. There's also the rather unsubtle act of symbolic sex taking place between Eva-01 and the Spear after Kaworu's hands come sweeping in. The significance of the hands here is that the Gates of Guf materialize on the palms, and presumably do so offscreen (even though actually seeing Kaworu sprout vulvae on his hands would have been the best thing ever, and being deprived of this is a crime). The visual signifier that something strange is happening to Eva-01 on a spiritual level is that for this scene, and this scene only, we see a dark sphere manifest inside her core, which obviously brings to mind such things as Leliel's shadow or the Black Moon, both of which are linked to "another place" (i.e., we are seeing Eva-01 manifest a Chamber of Guf).

Image

Giving Eva-01 the Angel souls so early in Third Impact makes it pretty transparently clear that Lilith, Adam, and Yui have no intention of letting HIP finish. It's going to be started and then stopped -- and then what? Yui is going to do what she planned to do all along, which is become an "Ark" for humanity. This is another element that the movie is really far too opaque about, but basically Yui is going to go to another planet (remember Gendo saying "Humanity should advance to a new world"? -- he was being 100% literal) and start up a new branch of the Humanity franchise. Kaworu's crazy gamble will pay off, as the Angels are going with her and will get another chance. Kaworu might even be going with her, too. Check it:

SPOILER: Show
Image


This photo appears when HIP is ending and Shinji says "Still... I want to see them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real." At first glance there is nothing too interesting going on here, but two important observations. First, Rei is the only pictured character to be mostly obscured. Second, four important characters are missing altogether: Gendo, Fuyutsuki, Kaworu, and Yui. Is there anything that possibly explains all five? Rei being shown as "present, but mostly hidden" could allude to her status post-3I: she will be a godly presence that watches over humanity from behind the scenes, mostly unseen. The four who are missing may be missing because, well, they aren't going to be on Earth after 3I. Yui we know for a fact is leaving. Kaworu leaving makes perfect sense, since he's Adam and he should go with the Angels in order to relocate Adamic life to another world. Gendo and Fuyutsuki are both so devoted to Yui that hell yes, they absolutely would go with her if given the option.

tl;dr: Kaworu deliberately pretends not to know what Lilith is so that he can help Rei "wake up", gets himself killed so his soul can be reincorporated back into Adam, forms an alliance with Lilith during Third Impact, and -- along with the kids -- hitches a ride on Spaceship Eva to reach another planet where Fruit of Life-holders can finally live as they were originally meant to.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Rei IV » Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:28 am

Reichu, bravissimo :clap:

I'll be honest, though. I think some of what you wrote is somewhat reaching but at the same time, I don't think there's any other way to explain what the hell is going through the duration of that episode and because I lack your analytical skills and paying attention to details, which includes the visuals. See, that scene with Kaworu exchanging looks with Rei, I always thought it was one-sided as it was just Kaworu smiling while Rei gave her trademark blank/stern look. But now that I look at it, there some expression. I dare might suggest it's a sympathetic look given Kaworu is the only person (entity) that could understand her situation (predicament) and has her likeness. Kudos to you to also being able to tie the absences of Gendo, Fuyutsuki, and Kaworu to the theory of Yui planning to start life on another planet (i.e., that they're going along the journey with her). Honestly, the's the best explanation as to why they're not there in the photo with Shin-chan. They're no longer part of that world.
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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:48 am

@Rei IV: Glad that some of it was persuasive even in Cliff Notes form! :lol:

Yeah, I can understand the "reaching" part; the post absolutely isn't meant to be exhaustive in any way. "Angel Ghosts / Spaceship Eva" requires a detailed analysis to fully explain (especially the absolutely arcane stuff going on in EoE), and I've got two Eva-related projects going on right now, so it has to wait its turn, alas. :spout:
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Derantor » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:22 am

Reichu wrote:(Gendo sees nothing wrong with Kaworu "making contact", either.)

The only problem I have with that is that Gendo apparently has no problem with anything happening in the series, except Yui and Rei rejecting him, which is important because:
Reichu wrote:(remember Gendo saying "Humanity should advance to a new world"? -- he was being 100% literal)

Unless that was just an accident, with Gendo speaking metaphorically while Yui means it literally, I don't think I can agree. Rei and Yui reject him, so his plan obviously wasn't the same as theirs, while him being literal implies that he is working together with all of them and knows their plan.

I previously rejected the idea that Yui is working with the angels, but it fits nicely with another pet theory of mine. I hope I can explain it in a way that is somewhat coherent. The gist of it is that Reichu's theory is right: Kaworu is playing make believe with Rei. The only difference is that Rei was in it from the start, or rather, was never "out", since she can't be, and Yui is as well. Nothing anybody other than those three (the Trinity) does in Eva matters at all, as it is just immortal, timeless beings not bound by causality playing make believe out of boredom. That's why the interations between the Trinity and the rest of the cast seem so strange. Everybody else is still limited by their human perspective and abilities, and while the Trinity can grasp that on an intellectual level, they just can not fathom what that actually means, and that's why their actions seem so cruel from time to time.

Long winded, repetitive explanation below  SPOILER: Show
So, I have wondered why so much in Eva seems to work by pure accident and chance, while other things seem to be completely deterministic (most blatant example: Asuka's fight against the MP-Evas. No matter what she (or anybody else except the Trinity) does, she is always going to die, one way or another, at the latest point when Instrumentality is started). I also wondered why Gendo seems to not care about anything, and doesn't act as efficiently as one would expect from a master schemer. He instead seems to be a fanatic believer in his eventual victory. I truly do NOT want to start a Nazi discussion or draw any other parallels, but he reminds me of Hitler in his bunker. Right up until the end, no matter what happened, the Endsieg was going to happen. It's even a meme: With the attack of Steiner, everything will work out. That's why it doesn't matter how much Gendo neglects and traumatizes his son, or that he lets him go - twice. He just has to believe strong enough in his Endsieg, and that will make it true. Asuka losing her ability to pilot? No matter, something else will swoop in and fulfill his destiny. I also wondered why SEELE seems to work the same way: Sending Kaworu, for whatever reason, is such a huge risk that only religious fanatics would even consider it. I put that down to the fact that they actually believe in the absolute accuracy of the Dead See Scrolls. Not telling the MP-Evas to kill Asuka outright? Doesn't matter, the outcome has been foretold, they think.

And in the end, everything works out for both of them, by pure accident (SEELE gets their Instrumentality, Gendo gets reunited with Yui) - except it isn't an accident at all, and neither is it some cosmic fate in the traditional sense. Many things in Eva don't make sense on the surface. For example, why don't the angels attack Germany, where Adam is held? Why doesn't Sahaquiel just nuke NERV from orbit? How come Unit 01 manages to kill Leliel two seconds before the UN drops 998 nukes into it? How come Shinjis says "Everybody can just die", yet nobody dies when his wish is "granted"? How come Second Impact didn't make the earth uninhabitable? This all makes sense with a shift of perspective, where we are not seeing the epic battle between the angels and humanity, SEELE and Gendo, or the internal conflict of the characters affecting the whole world, but a mere stage play put on by the Trinity.

I hate the idea that Rei (and Adam as well, since he is a SEED just like her, and possibly the angels) can travel through time, but I can't ignore the tells that she actually is capable of that, so I have to conclude that she can. The implications are far reaching. First of all, it throws causality right out of the window, as there is no "before", "after" or "at the same time" anymore. It also means that there are infinite, parallel realities, since every possibility must play out if you are able to change the past. Flip one single quantum to another state, and you have a new reality, which spawns infinitely many of its own (unless the universe is completely deterministic or Roger Penrose's idea of re-merging realities is true, but that is a little too large in scope to discuss here, and I am not even qualified to do so :bigeyes: ).

Since time also ceases to be a limited quantity with time travel, even in the theoretical sense, every possibility, no matter how unlikely, WILL happen. And has already happened, since "before and after" cease to have any meaning. When Yui merges with Unit 01, she suddenly becomes aware of all that. Or rather, she never was unaware of it. It gets complicated. From the Trinity's perspective, everything makes sense now. Everything already has happened (or is happening in this moment, or will happen).

That means that their perspective is just unfathomable to us. Basically all human concepts revolve around causality and time, but none of that matters to them. Cruelty or kindness only matter if they change your future, but if you have infinite futures and infinite time to contemplate, you are already over it before it happens. Death means nothing, as it isn't an event in your future, it has already happened to you. Or rather, you are always alive and always dead. The Trinity can not grasp the human experience of causality and time as a one way street any more than I can grasp being a horse or a dog. I can imagine being one, but I can never experience it. I can not even experience being another human. I can just, as a philosophical exercise, play make believe.

Which is exactly what the Trinity does: They want to get the angels to another planet, so that humanity can have the earth for themselves. (Well, that's in itself loaded language: They don't "want", they already "have". They need no "Why", because there is no way it won't happen. They just amuse themselves by pretending otherwise.) It seems like a coincedence that Sachiel attacks at the same time that Shinji comes to Tokyo 3, but it isnt. It is part of their play. That's why he casually strolls towards the gunfire, without any haste. Since "good" and "bad" are linked to causality, there is no distinction between them anymore. There is just experience and non-experience, with the first being preferable. The Trinity wants Shinji to experience something, so he is welcomed by an angel on arrival. They never wanted to kill him, they wanted to play with him: When he doesn't, Yui finishes the fight. Sachiel embraces her and self-destructs, as that was his goal all along: Free his immortal soul by shedding his body for a little fun and do something good for Shinji: Give him an experience.

This continues with the other angels: Ghagiel swallows the battleships, because why not? Seems fun. Yui bursts out of Leliel to offer a little surprise; she would have survived anyway, along with Shinji, as that was the plan, and she can freely choose a timeline where she does. Maybe she just likes the aesthetics? Sahaquiel wants the trio to feel like they achieved something, that's why he lowers himself to be killed. I can totally see him singing "Why did this happen to meeeee?", feigning surprise while he explodes.

But what does this look like to Gendo and SEELE? It looks like, no matter what, their plans work out, as if some divine intervention makes their hopes come true. Except that their plans don't matter at all, and neither do their actions. When Gendo sends Shinji away before Zeruel attacks, it seems totally counterproductive and dangerous. But there was no danger at all. He possibly just believes that Yui will save him, like she did many times before when she took over, to protect Shinji or whatever plans she has. Except that she doesn't even need to, as the Trinity already decided what will happen in this little pet reality of theirs.

It seems strange that Yui only reacts after Asuka dies - why would she put Shinji through the extra pain? So that he triggers Instrumentality? Well, no. She knows the eventual outcome. She's just offering him a new experience. This isn't cruel in her eyes, since in the end, he will wake up with Asuka on the beach, and thanks to her perspective, he already IS on the beach while Asuka gets skewered. She also sees him living infinitely many lives, so it really doesn't matter if she screws up one of those, as there is also one where Asuka confesses her love for him directly after Kimochi Warui and he is happy ever after as everything is sunshine and roses. Rei doesn't grant Shinji's wish to let everyone die because, in his future and her now, that specific Shinji regrets it. In essence, his wish doesn't even matter: Instrumentality was happening either way, since it wasn't his decision at all, but the Trinity's. When Yui asks Shinji if he will be alright, she is not asking out of concern: She is curious how that specific Shinji in this specific timeline sees things, since she forgot how to have a limited perspective. He has no choice anyways. In his future and her now, she already is on another planet playing angel-kindergarten while her son is rotting away on that beach (but he is also fine).

Ah, I mentioned the shifting of earths axis. There are infinitely many pasts that lead to Second Impact, and infinitely many futures that spawn from it, but humans can only experience one timeline. When Second Impact occurs, the Trinity shifts earth to a new timeline where the earth always was aligned the way it is in NGE. The south pole still melts and sea levels rise, but the causal chain leading to that happening has nothing to do with the timeline humans remember. There just happens to be one timeline out of infinitely many where everything stays the same (people, history) except for the alignment of the earth, giving the impression of continuity of some form, even though that continuity violates physical law and causality. The obvious objection is that humans would then remember that timeline, not their original one. But if you have infinite realities, there is also one where humans remember a timeline different from the one which is actually their past. Well, ALL of them are their past anyways ...

Same goes for Third Impact: As Mr. Tines likes to point out, there is no way that the earth is inhabitable after that, for many reasons, from Rei impacting the earth, to even microbes being tanged and the implications of that. But thankfully, there is one reality where only humans get tanged, where Rei impacts the earth but nothing too serious happens, yet everything still looks like that's what should have happened. If you can navigate infinity, that means that "likelyhood" or "chance" become meaningless. And we, as the audience, get a glimpse of the perspective of the Trinity, which watches and plays with that specific timeline, as there is stuff happening there, and experience is better than non-experience. If something doesn't work out like they want, they can just go back and change it - or rather, they already did, infinitely many times, and we get to see one end result.

It also explains why Rei self destructs: She is replaceable, in more than one sense. There always is a Rei, in the past or in the future, which is the same as "now" for her. It seems like a big choice for her, but it isn't: She is acting. Even if she isn't, and that specific Rei is unaware or her nature, there are infinitely many other Rei's in infinitely many realities influencing infinitely many parameters infinitely many times so that Rei II self destructs in that specific timeline - because why not?

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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:59 am

View Original PostDerantor wrote:Unless that was just an accident, with Gendo speaking metaphorically while Yui means it literally, I don't think I can agree. Rei and Yui reject him, so his plan obviously wasn't the same as theirs, while him being literal implies that he is working together with all of them and knows their plan.

They don't reject him, though. :nyao:

Yui appears to him and she provides not only complete understanding, but also the punishment that Gendo feels he deserves. This punishment is administered by DEVOURING half of him. This complete internalization is the most intimate (however violent) form of acceptance there is; if you eat someone, they literally become you. Keep in mind also that this scene fiercely channels Yui's awakening from episode 19, not only visually, but with the "eating" motif. In #19, eating something (the S2 engine) resulted in that thing manifesting within Eva-01's core. So if Yui eats Gendo, then what's implicitly being said?

SPOILER: Show
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As for the idea that Rei "rejects" him: After Yui's work is done, we're left with two other Reis in place of Yui and Kaworu (entirely possible that Rei 1 and Rei 2 had been acting as mediums for Yui and Kaworu). We see Gendo's glasses lying on the floor, with the remains of his body in the background. Rei 2 picks up his glasses, and then we see the three Rei standing together, with Rei 3 cupping something in her palms that we cannot see. The glasses represent Gendo's A.T. Field (they are orange and create an emotional barrier between himself and others). Rei retrieving the glasses represents Rei removing Gendo's A.T. Field. The thing that Rei 3 holds which we cannot see is Gendo's soul.

SPOILER: Show
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(I realize that Gendo being inside Eva-01's core and in Rei's palms at the same time is utterly paradoxical, but there's a lot about EoE that IS completely beyond the understanding of mere mortals. :devil: )

I've noticed that you believe that Gendo's goal is merely to reunite with Yui. Why do you believe this, out of curiosity? What do you make of what Gendo says in his last meeting with Seele? If you don't think it should be used to inform us about his actual motivations, why should it be disregarded?

Regarding the write-up in spoilers: :dizzy: The time stuff messes with my head bad, but I also find it unavoidable to a certain extent. I have no idea how exactly it works or what the precise parameters are, I just know that something weird is going on. Kudos on being able to articulate such mind-bending concepts; my brain would probably explode if I tried!

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the Angels are in on the "play". They feel to me like they are genuinely trying to survive and learn; to them, there is no guarantee that they have any life beyond this one. For example, Armisael's attempt to resurrect the Angels doesn't make much sense if Armisael knows the Angels are going to be resurrected anyway. Armisael is doing it because, as far as she's concerned, it's one of the last chances her kind will get.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Derantor » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:23 pm

Reichu wrote:They don't reject him, though.

Ah, sorry, I should have been more clear - Yui rejects him when she rejects the dummy-plug-system, Rei rejects him when he says "Grant my wish", and she takes his arm, and that's the only point where I can see distress in him (other than Rei's accident, now that I think about it). That's why I believe he is not in on their plan, if there exists a mutual one between Yui and the angels.

Reichu wrote:So if Yui eats Gendo, then what's implicitly being said?

That, like with Zeruel, she takes what she needs and leaves the rest, because she doesn't care about him and is evil anyways. :devil:
Seriously though, I always found it strange that of all people, Gendo is the only one who does not dissolve. Even Kiel does, and if there is any true "villain" in the show, he would be it. Your explanation is sound, except for the fact that Gendo does get punished. How would reuniting with Yui be a punishment? Because he doesn't, really. You are right, she devours him, he becomes part of her - which means, that Gendo, as an entity, ceases to exist. She doesn't take his lower body; If I had to make a guess, it is because it contains his manhood, and he failed as a man. Rei III holds nothing in her hands because there is nothing there: Souls are visible in EoE, yet there is none in her palms. That's because Gendo's soul is taken in and absorbed by Yui. Wether that creates a new, combined being or just means that it literally dissolves and becomes part of her, is another matter. But that way, his destruction is complete: Rei 2 takes his AT field, Yui takes his body (and possibly soul), and Rei III signifies what was lost by cupping nothingness in her hand.

Funnily enough, my theory explains that scene rather well. It is strange that Eva-01 is suddenly in central dogma, and that three Rei's are there as well, when the transition for every other person is basically the same (even Shinji, we just don't see his transition guide (unless that bare chest is ... Asuka, of course. :tongue: Yui's or Rei's hair is to short)). But if Yui/Eva 01 can travel through time, she can just appear anywhere (and be at two places at once), and the three Rei's are the same. So for all the symbolism contained in it, that scene actually takes place in reality, with Gendo being the only one not entering Instrumentality at all. As for why Yui would punish him: Again, her unique perspective strikes. She isn't punishing him. His deepest desire is to be reunited with her; she takes that literally, and unites with him - so completely that he disappears.

Regarding my take on Gendo: Edit 2, old reply in the spoiler: Because he ends his wish to Rei with "Merge all souls into one, and then bring me to Yui's side." He also says "It is the only way to see her again" - exactly what Shinji says when he makes the choice to return to the real world. Everything else seems pretty much optional.
SPOILER: Show
I'll have to write that up in it's own thread, I fear, as it takes too long to explain here, and I am not even sure I can. I am not so immersed in all the lore as you are, so it might be flawed anyways. But the gist of it is that Gendo wants Yui back - literally, the flesh-and-blood Yui that was lost, and he wants to live with her in the real world, but in a state where he can just be himself, the kind, hopeless romantic. In essence, he wants to turn back time. He doesn't want Instrumentality or the forced evolution of humanity, he wants a mundane world where he loves Yui and Yui loves him and they are happy ever after and live until they die, without any religious nut-jobs like SEELE interfering. I know, nauseatingly sweet. Edit: So, "Getting Yui Back" implies certain other stuff which must also come true for him to be happy, like a world that is inhabitable and preferably not destroyed.


Reichu wrote:I have no idea how exactly it works or what the precise parameters are, I just know that something weird is going on.

To be frank, neither do I. What I've written assumes that the Trinity has total control and no limits to their abilities, while the precise mechanics of it all are somewhat vague.

The Angels not being in on the play: Oh yes, that can be true as well. In that case, the Trinity just didn't tell them, and "dying" is part of their awakening. It is an experience they can only have in their mortal bodies, and their mothers do not want to deprive them of the excitement - or it is some form of puberty for them, who knows. The whole theory is not really that fleshed out at this point anyways: Kyoko needs to be explained (my guess is that Unit 01 was still connected to Lilith when Yui merged with it, and that's why she became part of the trinity) and I haven't decided on how the MP-Evas figure in all this.

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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Blockio » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:39 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:A
That, like with Zeruel, she takes what she needs and leaves the rest, because she doesn't care about him and is evil anyways. :devil:
Seriously though, I always found it strange that of all people, Gendo is the only one who does not dissolve. Even Kiel does, and if there is any true "villain" in the show, he would be it. Your explanation is sound, except for the fact that Gendo does get punished. How would reuniting with Yui be a punishment? Because he doesn't, really. You are right, she devours him, he becomes part of her - which means, that Gendo, as an entity, ceases to exist. She doesn't take his lower body; If I had to make a guess, it is because it contains his manhood, and he failed as a man. Rei III holds nothing in her hands because there is nothing there: Souls are visible in EoE, yet there is none in her palms. That's because Gendo's soul is taken in and absorbed by Yui. Wether that creates a new, combined being or just means that it literally dissolves and becomes part of her, is another matter. But that way, his destruction is complete: Rei 2 takes his AT field, Yui takes his body (and possibly soul), and Rei III signifies what was lost by cupping nothingness in her hand.

That's a rather interesting theory; color me convinced
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EUREKA!!!

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:24 pm

I lean more toward "Gendo became part of Yui in a baby-is-part-of-its-mom" way, but the corroborating evidence for this is something I don't need to get into right now.

For this post, here's something rather interesting I came up with earlier today that (with the help of Lavinius and BlueBasilisk) developed into an all-new monster with amazing speed. This concerns the mysterious pregnant-looking belly that Lilith develops after the Spear of Longinus is removed from her. I've long wondered what the hell the actual deal with this is -- it's a deliberate addition to the overhauled episodes, so it must be important, right? Why haven't we managed to fit this in anywhere? There were some obvious visual correlations I'd been aware of, but I'd never been able to push it to the "A-ha!" point.

This has finally changed! Behold!

SPOILER: Show
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It seems as though the Spear of Longinus was used on Lilith to impregnate her with Adam's genetic material. (The Spear, being the male-coded half of the Seed-Spear duo, may simply have Seed impregnation as one of its functions, i.e. it collects genetic material in order to be a more... versatile partner, i.e. Adam was sampled and encoded within the Spear's coils while she was stuck on the Spear for all those eons. If you want to use an alternate explanation, that's fine too.) This baby -- an Adam Revival, you could say -- converges with the Adam embryo when Rei returns to Lilith. Eventually, we see the final product of this weird pregnancy -- a giant Kaworu -- emerge offscreen from Lilith's abdomen like some kind of alien wombburster. This being manifests solely to transfer the contents of Adam's Chamber of Guf to Eva's Chamber, in anticipation of her interstellar voyage. Presumably this Adam ceases to exist afterward because their work is done; after HIP ends, the next step is to get on board Eva as well.

This is how things ultimately play out, but, had Gendo not been removed from the Third Impact equation, it could have gone much different. Using the Spear on Lilith was part of his own design. As far as I can tell, his trajectory was as follows:

1) Fuse Adam embryo onto palm: DONE.
2) Merge hand+embryo into Rei: DONE. (An interesting observation here is that Gendo inserts his hand into Rei's chest and then slowly moves it toward her abdomen. I'm unclear why this is, but it clearly mimics the path that the Spear's "insemination" would have needed to travel, as the Spear is inserted in the chest, but the result of the insemination materializes in the expected place.)
3) Get his soul sucked into the embryo. (The palm placement is very deliberate, as the palms are associated with the Gates of Guf, wherein souls enter and exit a Seed's Chamber of Guf. "Guf" just so happens to mean "body".)
4) Now-useless Lilin body undergoes degeneration into LCL.
5) Rei merges with Lilith.
6) Embryo with Gendo inside converges with Lilith's Adam-baby.
7) Gendo becomes Adam.
8) ????
9) Profit!

It's unclear to me if Gendo counted on Adam's soul playing a role in his Third Impact, or if he intended to make himself alone the new Adam. (This has incredibly strange implications for Gendo because doing so would effectively maternalize him -- Adam's nature is that of a mother, despite the name. And the visuals do, in fact, lean into this: Gendo's arm becomes an umbilical cord linking him and Rei. In other words, Gendo takes on a symbolic mother role at the same time he is possibly intending to become the next Adam!) This is something that requires further thought.

If any of this stuff sounds familiar, don't worry, it came as a "wtf? sweet!" moment to me too.

possible 3+1 spoilers  SPOILER: Show
Completely by accident, looking into this 'pregnant Lilith' thing unearthed some creepy parallels with Shin's likely trajectory. Check it.

NGE: Gendo merges with the degenerated Adam (=embryo), with intentions of merging with the Adam inside Lilith
NTE: Gendo merges with a degenerated Adams (= Key of Nebuchadnezzar) and plans on merging in some way with an Adams that has Lilith inside it (= Eva-13).
Goal of both: (1) Advance humanity; (2) Hot god sex with wife (probably)

Even more insane: unbirthing is pretty implicit in the idea of Gendo merging with an embryo and then with the unborn baby inside Lilith, and it's also very bluntly coded in one of the few shots of Shin we've been given.

Image

Look at the pose Eva-13 is in. Now look at where Gendo is placed within the composition. I shouldn't have to say any more. :devil:

I don't think any of this is coincidence, either. It's corroboration. Lots of ideas in NGE that got fairly little playtime have been expanded upon greatly in NTE. This would just be yet another one.

-Is Adam's soul involved?-
NGE: Ambiguous if Adam's soul is necessarily part of keikaku
NTE: Kaworu is trapped inside Eva-13, therefore NTE equivalent of OG!Adam's soul will probably be involved


To bring this all back round to the thread: do you see how this fixes one of the most obnoxious fucking problems present in 24'? Kaworu gets confused because ADAM ACTUALLY IS IN TERMINAL DOGMA. It's not the specific Adam he's looking for, but it's a resurrection of his original body all the same, and, being much larger in size, it would predictably give out a much bigger "signature". This baby being part of Gendo's plans for himself, as in "something he plans to merge with", further counts toward making Kaworu's actions rather more believable. Remember, Kaworu is told that "Adam's resurrected body is with Ikari" -- he's not told that the body in question is a tiny embryo. So when he felt the massive Adam signature underground, he may have, somewhat overconfidently, assumed that Gendo had already merged with THAT.

So, Kaworu finds Adam, but he also finds Lilith -- one inside the other. The use of Lilith to resurrect Adam may be the very thing that causes Kaworu to suddenly "understand" and decide on the spot to forfeit his life. And for the record, it's implied through the visuals that Kaworu genuinely does understand something that he previously did not. When he says that he understands, we receive the only shot IN THE ENTIRE SERIES where Kaworu's pupils are drawn distinctly. (His eyes are hazy the rest of the time.) In other words, a veil has been lifted; he can see something clearly at last.

SPOILER: Show
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On this basis, he decides that he no longer needs to fight. Since the Adam inside Lilith is what Kaworu ultimately uses to fix the "Angels on Earth" problem (access Adam's Guf and transfer contents to Eva), he seems to have made the right decision.

So there you have it! The biggest problem of #24', the thing that has plagued fans for so many years as being seemingly unresolvible, at LAST looks like it may have an actual solution, which means we can stop worrying about that snag and FINALLY start to piece together the rest of the episode. Pretty awesome! :boingy:


EDIT: Added stuff about Gendo's trajectory where my brain had skipped a bunch of steps ahead.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: EUREKA!!!

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Postby Rei IV » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:29 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:So there you have it! The biggest problem of #24', the thing that has plagued fans for so many years as being seemingly unresolvible, at LAST looks like it may have an actual solution, which means we can stop worrying about that snag and FINALLY start to piece together the rest of the episode. Pretty awesome! :boingy:

Reichu, bravissmo! (Tak about Déjà vu ) :clap:

Seriously though, your theories fall in range between "Holy shit, she's fucking desperately reaching!" and "Wow, this shit isn't that inconceivable and makes a lot sense than whatever the inane nonsense/clusterfuck actually that happened in the actual continuity". It's shame how tumblr was torpedoed and sank into irrelevancy because I would've rather read these theories/thoughts 1000x over than some of the other "theories" (seen on tumblr) by the more unpleasant Eva stans/fans who leave nothing to the imagination (and project whatever biases they have on to the creator). Whereas Mr. Anno would probably respond with a more polite, Japanese equivalent of "I have no fucking idea. Fanwank something to the question of what was REALLY going on in epsidsode '24, I take your theory as "canon" and the best explanation for all this.

Maybe one day you'll be up to the challenge to provide narrative explanation (justification?) for the insane clusterfuck the occurred with the Eva series and Unit-02 in EOE because holy shit, from a narrative stand point, it's fucking pointless and waste of Seele's time and resources, no matter awesomely beautiful/cool the scene is.
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Re: EUREKA!!!

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Postby Derantor » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:00 pm

Huh ... that ... suddenly makes Kaworu's actions rather straight forward, doesn't it? It is almost emberassingly easy in hindsight. He dies so that his soul can inhabit baby-Adam inside Lilith. I can only applaud your analytical abilites . ^_^ This theory is great on it's own in solving that single mystery of Kaworu's confusion, but in combination with your Spaceship-Yui theory, it becomes even better. ^_^ I also want to second what Rei IV said, as I wanted to say something similar in your Rebuild-lore threads: Your explanations often times are more satisfying and interesting than what I can see in the series or movies. I often suspect that you put much more thought into these things than Anno does himself, and prefer what you come up with.

I'm a little dumbstruck by how this could have been missed for over twenty years, so I am still a little sceptical. This almost sounds too good to be true. :uhh: I hope you don't mind a few questions.

Upfront, I can't find anything which would speak against Lilith being impregnated by the spear, and Kaworu being confused by her pregnancy. That part of the theory seems pretty waterproof to me, and it truly is a Eureka moment, as it establishes a firm base where there was only confusion before. After that, things are not as clear cut, though.

The biggest flaw I can find here is related to how souls work in Eva. Pregnancy seems to be one way to create them - that explains why the human population can still grow even though the chamber of Guf is empty. Lilith seems to get properly pregnant, though, including an exchange of genetic material. So, why is the being created a new Adam and not a mixed life-form? How come Kaworu thinks he doesn't need his old body when there is a new one, but that is already inhabited by another soul? Unless, of course, the being growing inside Lilith is only comprised of adamic genetic material, and it isn't really a pregnancy in the traditional sense, but more of a cloning procedure, with Lilith as the gestation chamber. Which then brings up the question of how that is different from all the other Adam clones running around, and why Gendo would need to use Lilith when there are other ways available to get a new Adam body.

In your picture collection, when Lilith's mask falls off, she is already not visibly pregnant anymore. As if the merger with Rei III and the Adam Embryo terminated the pregnancy. How does this figure in your theory, and what is achieved by merging Baby-Adam and Adam-Embryo? Edit 3: Ok, that is somewhat addressed for Gendo's perspective, if he can become Adam that way somehow, but why would Rei do it?

Lilith get's pregnant when the spear is pulled out - I guess this is because the spear is suppressing her at the same time? Gendo has the spear pulled out in the fight against Arael - is that what he meant by "speeding things along"?

Edit:
6) Embryo with Gendo inside converges with Lilith's Adam-baby.
7) Gendo becomes Adam.

There seems to be something missing here. Where is Adams soul right now? I assume it is inside the Adam-baby, since you propose that Gendo becomes the soul of the embryo in his hand. But how does that merger make Gendo Adam, and doesn't create something new? For Gendo's plan to make sense, he has to retain his being somehow, so merging with the soul of Adam seems counterproductive. On the other hand, if Adams soul isn't inside the embryo, this whole process is no different from a standard "ensouling", which would only give Gendo a new body, but not change his being, so he doesn't become Adam. Unless you meant that he gets a new body and thus new abilites when you say he becomes Adam. Edit 2: Which then makes me ask how this is different from what Yui did with Unit 01, and why Gendo can't do the same.

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Re: EUREKA!!!

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:52 am

On the one hand, it does feel strange that it took this long, but having been around for most of that time, I'm... not exactly surprised? The sort of analysis I do is pretty idiosyncratic (as far as I know). For basically my entire time in the fandom, I've needed to force my own way to dismantle bad premises taken completely for granted that don't explain shit, and be completely willing to look nuts in order to figure out things that nobody else would bother to. I have no idea why this has been my experience; it's been frustrating and disappointing in many ways. But if there genuinely has been a dire lack of people willing to get into the right headspace for what Anno and company created, then naturally the more obscure riddles are going to take a while to figure out. Works of art don't have an expiration date -- "anything not figured out within twenty years can never be explained; explanations added past that date are spoiled and cannot be used" -- so I don't sweat it, really. My biggest concern is, "Are the puzzle pieces coming together?"

Rant aside: being as I only managed to come up with the basic premise for the solution yesterday, it's completely within expectations that there is still plenty left to figure out. My brain is still adjusting just to how absolutely bonkers this all is. :lol: Like, Gendo intentionally getting Lilith pregnant so he can PUT HIMSELF INSIDE THE BABY is the kind of insane I love, but it's also the kind of insane where I think I'm losing my goddamned mind the whole time I'm thinking it up. Then something that never ever made sense before suddenly does, and I'm like, "Fuck, maybe this IS right :bigeyes:" I can address a couple of things, though. [I say "a couple" and then conjure up a damn wall. Sigh, no more distractions today, Reichu! Time to finish next chapter!!]

Wall of Text  SPOILER: Show
With the souls issue, we have some basis to work with. Sexual reproduction can create more, yes, but we only know this is true with normal mortal beings. Kaworu was born from the union of Man and God in what seems to have been quite literally a sexual manner (they talk about genes "diving" into Adam and "fusing"; does that sound like a faintly disguised way of referring to anything? anything at all? :devil:). By all indications, however, Kaworu was an empty shell, despite the donor being spiritually linked to Adam (indicated by the fact that an Impact was triggered) at the time of conception. They collected whatever had been produced by the experiment and "salvaged" Adam's soul into it. The use of this word is significant in that it links Kaworu to the Evas, who we know for a fact start out as empty shells into whom souls must be "salvaged".

Perhaps more to the point, Lilith has produced a giant baby once before -- Eva-01 -- and she was soulless. There would be no reason to expect another giant baby to come out of Lilith suddenly having its own soul.

As for what exactly this baby is, genetically: it being all-Adam feels the simplest to me, since the whole problem we're trying to address is why Kaworu would mistake something in Terminal Dogma for Adam. The less Adam that baby is, the less useful the solution is. If you look at the flowchart, also, Lilith's pregnancy is effectively sandwiched by Adam connections: the Spear impaling Adam, Adam being absorbed into Rei, Adam coming out of Lilith. What would make this baby special compared to the other clones, then? Both of the components being used to create it are original FAR tech. A Spear, and a Seed. The FAR are the ones who made the Seeds in the first place, so obviously FAR tech can make Seeds. The need for Seeds to be able to create Seeds in turn is pretty necessary to keep the human franchise an ongoing sort of thing, as well. As for why more Evas weren't created this way -- maybe this is the real reason why Eva-01 is the hardest to control? She is intrinsically the most powerful Eva because she wasn't made with shitty Lilin technology; she was grown right from Lilith. As a "Test Type" who acts as a Lilith backup, one is enough; Seele are cowardly patriarchs who want to be able to actually control their enslaved giant women.

I'm not precisely certain why the pregnant belly disappears when Lilith takes on Rei's form. Kaworu womb-bursts out of GNR later regardless, so I'm not sure if the pregnancy is "terminated" so much as... transformed, somehow? Maybe the original (Gendo) idea was for the baby to be a fully separate entity (the better for Gendo to renew his marital vows, if you know what I mean), but with the way things played out, a true birth doesn't need to happen. Adam's resurrected body becomes fully internalized except for the moment when it's needed, at which point the way in which Kaworu emerges (directly out of the abdomen) links the affair to the birth that never was. A possible point of comparison here is something weird that happens when Lilith's legs regrow: the miniature legs (stillborn Reis?) get reabsorbed, and then emerge again further down, on Lilith's regrown legs. The mini-legs are kind of similar to the baby in that they're (presumably) things that grow from Lilith as a result of non-Lilith DNA injected through some means; and, when Lilith undergoes a "transformation", they are reabsorbed and then manifested again.

As for the Spear being a "suppressant", I don't think it actually suppresses Lilith at all. Keep in mind, Lilith hasn't been doing ANYTHING on that cross for ten years. Like, compare how much of her is missing around 2004 to how much of her is there when she's impaled in 2015. Then contrast with how much mass she regains INSTANTANEOUSLY when the Spear is pulled out; the cause and effect is pretty clear. The Spear is what lets her heal, like it's charging her the entire time it's stuck in. And naturally, Lilith only gets pregnant once the Spear is pulled out because it would be kind of weird and gross to get pregnant while the man (equivalent) is still inside the woman. :devil:

The reason Gendo wants to get rid of the Spear as soon as possible is because the original Spear is for some reason necessary to using Lilith directly for HIP, as explained at the beginning of EoE. By putting it out of reach before Seele can pull any funny business, Gendo ensures that Seele is forced into using Yui for their plans instead. Why he would want to do this is straightforward enough. :nyao:

The exact details of how Gendo's and Adam's souls are supposed to work in this scheme will require a few headaches to contemplate properly.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: EUREKA!!!

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Postby Rei IV » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:27 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:On the one hand, it does feel strange that it took this long, but having been around for most of that time, I'm... not exactly surprised? The sort of analysis I do is pretty idiosyncratic (as far as I know). For basically my entire time in the fandom, I've needed to force my own way to dismantle bad premises taken completely for granted that don't explain shit, and be completely willing to look nuts in order to figure out things that nobody else would bother to. I have no idea why this has been my experience; it's been frustrating and disappointing in many ways. But if there genuinely has been a dire lack of people willing to get into the right headspace for what Anno and company created, then naturally the more obscure riddles are going to take a while to figure out. Works of art don't have an expiration date -- "anything not figured out within twenty years can never be explained; explanations added past that date are spoiled and cannot be used" -- so I don't sweat it, really. My biggest concern is, "Are the puzzle pieces coming together?"


Listen, there's a voice in me that wants to exclaim BS loudly at almost everything you wrote but again, like I mentioned before, this long, profoundly in-depth-explanation seems more plausible than the contrived (and cheap cop-out) "LOL. It's anime" explanation or that Anno simply thought it looked neat. I think some Eva fans can be WAY over-analytical about this stuff, but still, some of what we see (the visuals) ties in neatly with the themes presented in Evangelion, even if they're never expanded on (explained). Your "pregnancy" theory is one of them which I use to believe anything relating to that was just simply Lilith's "beer belly". Never thought of the Lance of Longinus have any relation to this other than its usage as a weapon. I could've never imagined it had phallic connotations as well. :hahaha:

As far as I'm concerned, this all canon until Hideaki Anno says otherwise. :D
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Re: Questions regarding Kaworu and SEELE

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Postby Derantor » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:20 am

Reichu wrote:The sort of analysis I do is pretty idiosyncratic (as far as I know).

And I honestly wonder why that is. It doesn't seem that far fetched (well, ok, it DOES seem rather strange, but it is the kind of strange I somehow expect in the fandom, given the imagery of the series alone and what kind of thoughts that should invoke :tongue:) - at the same time, it is a rather sweet story on its own that you spend so much time on it and finally got rewarded for it. Like the mad scientist whom nobody believed, but then it turns out that she wasn't mad all along. ^_^

Reichu wrote:(they talk about genes "diving" into Adam and "fusing"; does that sound like a faintly disguised way of referring to anything? anything at all? :devil:)

Yes, it sounds disgustingly like Steven Universe ... :urk:
All joking aside, I think my ... need to relate this to real-world concepts is a road block for me here. I would explain the fact that Kaworu was born soulless by the fact that Lilin genes and Seed genes are compatible enough to produce offspring, but the offspring is "infertile" - like a mule - hence soulless. Then again, it is said that the "spacing of the pattern [of angel DNA]" falls within a 99.89% match of human genes. Which, disregarding the strange wording for a moment, should be more than enough to produce normal offspring and thus set a precedent for how Seed-to-Seed sexual reproduction works. So the incompatibility must stem from the different kind of matter composing both beings, at which point, I've got no intuitive concept of how to make sense of it. Similarily, Unit-01 seems to grow directly from Lilith, in a kind of asexual reproduction. Again, no clues for how Seed-to-Seed sexual reproduction works.

Nonetheless, I stumbled on some interesting ideas how it could play out. (This turned out far longer than anticipated).

A possible explanation of FAR-pregnancy and why their offspring is soulless  SPOILER: Show
I am not sure if the Seeds are creations of the FAR, or the FAR themselves - but thankfully, this can be ignored in this theory, it works either way. The Seeds being an artificial life form just adds one more step.

The angels are described as if they were biomechanical - and even if they aren't, it would make sense for a highly advanced race to blur the distinction between biology and technology. Hence the combination of the Seed, the female, biological part, and the spear, the male, technological part. This also makes sense on a symbolic level, with motherhood and female traits being close to nature, while masculinity is associated with emotionally distant technology - it also mirrors real life concerns, in that male DNA seems to degenerate, which evokes fears that the male part of the species will die out before the female part, requiring a technological solution. This makes the FAR a mono-gendered species; all the male functions were replaced by technological means.

The spear is in this case a tool, it has no DNA of its own. Its first purpose in this context is to manipulate the Seed into gestation. Once it has done that, the Seed then produces a body; this can either be done by relying on the Seed's own DNA, any foreign genetic material the spear introduces to it (that way, we get the pure-Adam-being we need) or a combination of the two. The Seed is in this case a universal recipient: No matter which genes you put in, there always comes SOMETHING out of it - this explains why introducing human DNA to Adam creates Kaworu, and why the Angels are so completely unique: They are combinations of Seed DNA and samples from the FAR-homeworld. The stranger examples like Leliel might be combinations of Seed-DNA and artificially created pseudo-genetic samples: An equation for the creation of pocket dimensions which somehow got turned into genetic code which will produce a being capable of creating those pocket dimensions.

So, why is all offspring soulless? Because the FAR lost their male gender. It is thus impossible for them to create new souls by natural means. The FAR could theoretically reverse-engineer male FAR-DNA to get the missing gender back - but for some reason or another, that would require the female part of the species to take a step back in evolution, costing them much of their powers which they are not willing to lose (temporal- and spacial manipulation capabilities, being universial genetic recipients, etc). So instead, all new FAR souls are artifical creations. That explains why they need to create a Chamber of Guf with spare souls inside. It also explains why we only see female souls inside the Evas: Being clones of the Seeds, or rather, the FAR themselves, an entirely female species, there is just a fundamental incompatibility with male souls at play.

The spear comes in again when the embryo inside the Seed has matured enough and can be ensouled (given that Seeds seem to be capable of temporal manipulation, the length of pregnancy can be chosen freely!). It takes one of the souls out of the chamber of Guf (or any other suitable source) and places it in the offspring. At that point, the "pregnancy" is over. And here we come back to why Lilith seemingly terminates her pregnancy when Rei III enters her: Kaworu's/Adam's soul did NOT end up in the baby growing inside Lilith. It returned to its original body, which is in Gendo's hand. When Gendo tries to merge with Rei, she takes his hand to get Adam's soul. She then takes over the function normally performed by the spear: She merges with Lilith, and at that point, Adams soul moves to the new body and the pregnancy is over. Adam is born and stays inside Lilith until he shows himself to Shinji.

Why doesn't Adams soul return to the baby right away? This is could be a safety feature: Souls linger after death - for how long is not clear, but lets say you have a pregnant Seed on an inhabited world. There are possibly billions of stray souls whizzing around - you do not want one random soul to end up in your carefully crafted designer-baby, so souls can not enter a Seed-body on their own, which would be necessary to get to the foetus inside. They need a form of transportation to get them through the AT-field - a spermium, so to speak - which can be accomplished by use of the spear or a merger like that of Rei III and Lilith.

All this is entirely unrelated to how the FAR seed planets with new life: All they need to do is introduce some basic genetic material, which will then evolve on its own. That it happens to evolve humans who are 99,89% similar in some way to angels might be an accident or something they planted in those basic genes from the start.


There is one other idea which popped inside my head. I also stumbled on the fact that, possibly, two experiments were going on in the Antarctic at the same time: Exchange of genetic material, AND a spiritual connection. One triggering the creation of Kaworu, the other triggering Second Impact. I expand on that in the spoiler below, among other things.

A possible answer as to why Angels and Evas have cores, but humans don't  SPOILER: Show
I came up with a (very shaky) possible limitation regarding bodies and souls, borrowing from a concept of quantum mechanics: Entanglement. Once a soul enters a formerly soulless body, those two become entangled. This means that that body will only take that specific soul, and that soul can only inhabit that specific body - until either is destroyed and the entanglement is broken. Adam's soul has no choice but to return to his original body, since that is still around. The obvious question is: Why can he inhabit Kaworu's body, then? The answer lies in the fact that Angels and Evas have cores, but humans don't - and neither do seeds. As far as I know, Lilith is never shown with a core. That's because she doesn't need one: Lilith's soul inhabits Lilith's body directly, while Yui's soul inhabits the core of Unit-01, but not the body.

Adam does have a core, though, when he emerges after the contact experiment in the Antarctic - that is because somebody (lets call him Akira :wink:) made contact with Adam, trying to take over the body. The core manifests as a way to circumvent the entanglement without breaking it: It allows an incompatible soul to control a foreign body, suppressing or driving out the resident soul. The Evas are all controlled by souls which had a previous body; Yui, Kyoko, Rei, and presumably the people inside the MP-Evas. Kyoko's body is still around after her contact experiment, so her case is clear cut. Rei's is as well, as Lilith's body is around the whole time (which means that all Reis have a core, as does Kaworu!).

Yui is iffy: I can only assume that her body did not disintegrate prior to her soul making contact with Unit-01, which means that she was still entangled with it at that point. Alternatively, the special way in which Unit 01 is born comes into play: It was at that point still connected to Lilith, so there is no distinction between their bodies, which means that Lilith is entangled to Unit-01, and Yui can not control it without a core. A third option is that the entanglement is only broken when every last bit of the original body is destroyed: If some nail clippings of Yui survived beyond the contact experiment, she was still entangled with them until they ceased to exist.

Adam and Akira are a very special case. You mentioned that they were spiritually linked, but also that genetic material was exchanged. This means that there were not one, but TWO experiments going on at the same time. The introduction of genetic material triggered the pregnancy of Adam, which produced Kaworu. But at the same time, the spiritual connection was a contact experiment, just like Yui's! The contact experiment produced the giant of light, which is NOT simply Adam. It is Akira's soul trying to control Adams body, while Adam's soul is still entangled with it and Akira is still entangled with his own body. So the core manifests, Akira's soul is suddenly in control of Adam's body (and possibly fighting with Adam's soul for control over the body!), and, being totally unprepared for that, triggers Second Impact by accident. (Later contact experiments restrain the angelic body; thus, no Impact is possible. These restraints then get incorporated into the armor of the Evas.)

For the angels, it simply means that they are controlled by FAR-souls which agreed to leave their original bodies behind and stored them for later, entered Adam's chamber of Guf to be able to control the angels, which function as additional vessels for the FAR to control, should any complications arise. While the angel bodies themselves are unentangled and could take a soul, the FAR-souls are still entangled to their bodies, hence the need for a core.

This also allows the mass-production of cores for later use: After a contact experiment with an entangled angelic body, a core is created, which is then physically removed from the body and stored. The process can than be repeated indefinitely with the same angelic body but different humans. This explains why NERV can replace Asuka with a different pilot without needing to create a new Evangelion: They just need to remove the core from Unit 02 and replace it with a new one. (The "We need to reconfigure the core" line is then just misdirection by Ritsuko - nothing too far fetched, as she doesn't tend to spill the beans regarding the actual truth about the Evas.)

To bring this all back to Kaworu: When Rei takes in Gendo's hand, Adams body is destroyed for good, breaking the entanglement. Adam's now unentangled soul can then undergo the normal process of inhabiting a new body; the one Lilith is pregnant with.


Regarding Gendo pulling out the spear: I was thinking in the context of him intentionally impregnating Lilith - if that's the case, he might not want to trigger the pregnancy by pulling the spear out too early or too late, but I addressed that above: The gestation period might not be of any fixed length at all. I don't think Gendo would WANT Seele to use Yui, though, but that is in the context of my own, very different theory, which I hopefully can bring to paper in the near future.

But I am very amused by the mental image of Gendo dreaming of having god-sex with his 60 meter tall wife, that explains why he constantly takes that lift to nowhere when Unit 01 sorties - and if EoE is anything to go by, he got lucky in the end. That's why Yui finally let down her hair as she drifts off into space - the after-sex cigarette is just out of shot, though. :nyao:

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE (Episode 24' Plot Hole Solved?)

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:41 pm

No replies from me right now to minimize distraction; just want to share a horrible new thought I've had.

The new premises previously outlined give us two Adams to play with: the embryo, and the fetus inside Lilith ("the baby"). I've suggested that they "converge" somehow, as seems to be the case in the Third Impact that actually happens, but this doesn't explain what Gendo was originally planning to do. Why does he need two Adams? There's also the niggling question of where Adam's soul would have fit in Gendo's plans, if anywhere. I'm not going to pretend this is going to actually ANSWER-answer anything -- just offer another possible angle to mess with.

So, we have two Adams; and we have two souls to (maybe) account for. What would be the most straightforward solution, then, is if Gendo absolutely DOES intend to utilize Adam's soul (it IS fairly questionable if the "forbidden fusion" can really be complete without it). Thus there would be one soul to each body. Since Gendo pretty obviously intends to infuse his soul into the embryo, that means Adam's soul is intended for the baby. This makes sense, as the baby would, in some way or another, be the "forbidden fusion" itself -- an Adam, grown from Lilith's womb, that contains the soul of Adam, previously "touched by" a Lilin.

Here's the best part: so, imagining that the embryo and fetus have separate souls, and remain distinct beings, where would the Gendembryo go when Rei merged with Lilith? Same way the Spear's genetic contribution went from Lilith's chest to abdomen, and Gendo moved his hand from Rei's chest to abdomen, the Gendembryo would make the same journey down. Where would it end up? Inside Baby Adam. Pre-impregnating her, you could say.

So what I'm suggesting is that if Gendo had had his way, maybe we would have had Lilith giving birth to the "Forbidden Fusion" baby (Adam-born-from-Lilith who has Adam's soul), who in turn gives birth to a new Adam (who has Gendo's soul). Now, to figure out where amidst that spectacular display such boring things as "melting down the biosphere", "reuniting with Yui", "seeing the Ark plan to fruition", etc., would fit in...

Remember, it's Rei's fault we didn't get this! :nyao:

EDIT:
Disclaimer: completely nuts  SPOILER: Show
Now, while I realize that my idea about "only female souls can enter Seeds/Evas" isn't gospel or anything, imagine if it were true in this instance. I mentioned up-thread how Gendo was visually "maternalized" via his fusion with Rei, which may or may not have been anticipating some Pretty Weird Shit to come. If Gendo DOES need to have a "maternal" component to his soul in order to inhabit Adam successfully, how would he get around this? Are he and Rei standing there doing seemingly nothing for so long because Rei's soul -- which is a mother's -- is somehow transforming Gendo's?

Souls can't be copied, true, but that doesn't mean that spiritual "components" cannot be transferred. Seeds of Life have especially potent egos, as well (an AATF is just them expanding their sense of self to such vast proportions that all other egos get annihilated), and we see that this continues to hold true even in such tiny and frail bodies as Rei and Kaworu (they generate the most powerful ATFs on record). So is there any good reason why the comparatively weak soul of a successor, like Gendo, couldn't be reshaped or added onto?

tl;dr: Gendo undergoes a spiritual transition so he can become a Seed of Life. Despite this fanatical level of spousal devotion, Rei ditches the poor asshole and lets the wife determine his fate.
Come to think of it, this might actually provide a perfect tie-in for why Gendo's lower body is left behind. His man parts are abandoned to signify that he himself has abandoned maleness. (Also, remember how Kaworu says that Gendo is like him? :derp: )
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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