Shun wrote:Life doesn't end at fourteen
Of course not - but since every living thing was made into LCL, the disruption to the ecosphere is severe enough to endanger life on the planet as a whole. Not so speak of the aftereffects of Rei crashing back down to earth, the dissolution of people into LCL at inconvenient times (crashing planes, fires burning without anybody able to stop them, nuclear and chemical accidents, etc). Technically, not even the bacteria in their stomach would return with them, since they are lifeforms of their own, and must thus return of their own free will (Iruel supports the view that microscopic life follows the same rules as macroscopic life), condemning them to death right there and then.
I know of the metaphorical interpretation (and for the record, I agree that that is the intended meaning of it all, and the one most likely correct) - the beach as the starting point, but given that Annos message is also anti-escapist, it would only be fitting if there would be no way to continue the stories of the main characters as a reinforcement of his point that you have to get out into real life - which Eva isn't. You quoted his interview: "I had to at least include a kind of impetus for them to wake up… I did that in the end, because it was something good for the viewers." But, given audience identification with the characters, that also means that for THEMSELVES there is no way forward. Unintentionally compromising his whole message because he overdid it with the "cold water".
Shun wrote:In the end, the depressive point of view is concentrated on Shinji and Asuka, while Yui, Rei, Kaworu say us some positive messages.
That's another problem. The Audience will most likely identify with the two pilots - in EoE, only Shinji is examined in detail, and almost all of his statements are ones of reluctant acceptance and defeat, not of actual will to change. Yui, Rei and Kaworu are not dead, but removed from the real world by the end of the story. They belong to the dreamworld, the fantastic, while Shinji, the representant of humanity and reality, is left alone. So everything they say ALSO belongs to the dreamworld: As Shinji said, a hopeful delusion, which can't possibly last. Shinji in that sense becomes the arbiter of reality: It would be nice if there was hope and change and all that, but that's just a dream. Speaking for reality, his point of view is the "realistic" one, and thus "true".
I only focus so much on the last spoken words because their placement right at the end of the movie, after a prolonged series of silence, gives them special weight. A final comment or realization at the end. If those words weren't there, it would be far easier to accept the end as an overall neutral statement, a starting point from where change can happen. To me, the "disgusting" puts a general negative on everything, though. It colours the whole experience. Like a symphony, where the last notes are completely dissonant to the point of becoming a statement against harmony itself, if that makes sense.
Shun wrote:Really, what do you expect from this kind of person?
That he makes a whole movie pointing out the absurdity of well intentioned vows and kind words meant to encourage people, while in reality, everything will just get worse and worse until you give up - even if it just subconciously creeps into the work. At least that's what happens to me when I try to write while depressed, where every positive thing happening in the story feels unrealistic, while the end-product is so negative and bleak that it can only seem realistic to the depressed mind. I just assume that it is similar for Anno, and with him wanting to portray reality, he of course portrays his reality.
Shun wrote:what seems to you a contradiction between narrative pov and metaphorical pov, is simply complexity.
Not quite. Saying life doesn't end at fourteen, they can grow up and there is always the chance for change is directly contradicted by putting them in a place where their lifes will most likely end in the near future and any chance for positive change and introspection has to stand back behind the realities of living in a post-apocalyptic world. Those are the contradictions I talk about - which are only important if you assume there is some overall (positive) message behind it all, and don't take Eva just as an observation of life from the point of view of somebody suffering from depression and existential crisis.
Shun wrote:I don't think Anno makes the sermons thinking he is a wise teacher of life.
Interesting that you call it a sermon - because that is exactly what Eva comes off as: A gospel for the new century. A lesson, a work which has something to say. Whole sections of the show are nothing but direct statements to the audience. So at one time, Anno certainly must have thought of himself as a teacher - which is why people search for answers (or at least insight) in the first place.
Shun wrote:Perhaps it is we who overestimate Evangelion and Anno, looking for mysterious and profound philosophical, psychological answers
Most definitely. But opening up so many deep questions from the perspective of psychology and the human struggle, the show itself begs to be seen in this way. Anno saying we have to find our own answers prompts us to think deeply about it; just as leaving it all so ambiguous does. Which ironically directly goes against his message against escapism; by making it so complex and multifaceted, any understanding of the work requires substantial analysis in the first place, which becomes a form of escapism in itself. Anno said he wanted to portray reality, in other words the truth, from his point of view. Naturally, we want to find out what that means.
Shun wrote:Seriously, I see no seriously reason to think that Anno will destroy Shinji.
He did that already in EoE, more or less, and NTE makes him less likeable overall while his mistakes are far more obvious and stupid. It would only be natural to assume that that trend continues, since Eva never was about giving Shinji a good end, as you said, it is Anno basically talking to himself and the audience.
Shun wrote:But if you (not you, I say in general) are convinced that Shin Eva will end badly, well, I won't try to change your mind.
No, I think it will end on the same ambiguous note as EoE, where it is nominally hopeful and optimistic, but only if you ignore the narrative side of things completely and detach the story from the metaphor. But you are right, I'll just wait and see.
I find it difficult to express what I want to say. My comment was mostly about the technical aspect of narrative and metaphorical interpretation supporting one another. If we take classic western stories, we have: Hero finds village in need, Hero slays dragon, Hero saves village, everybody is happy and Hero gets reward. There is a clear meaning hear: A problem is identified, an obstacle is overcome, it benefits society and it benefits the person which overcame the obstacle. The dragon is of course metaphor, it can be anything, as severe as depression or as mundane as resolving to finally mow the lawn, and the reward is arbitrary as well. But the narrative itself follows the same trajectory as the message, so both of them reinforce each other.
Eva meanwhile piles on so much complexity that any message can be taken from it, as I tried to demonstrate with my ramblings above, while there is a distinct difference between narrative and metaphorical trajectory - one being clearly upwards, while the other is clearly downwards, which in turn weakens any message you take from it, maybe to the point of there not being any message inherent in it at all.
Anyways, as I said, I am unable to formulate my thoughts clearly, which can only mean that I went wrong somewhere or struggle with cognitive dissonance. Maybe it is just the impossibility of finding concrete answers to ambiguous questions that gets to me. As
pwhodges said, people argued about this for twenty years already, I am just late to the party and haven't even made my mind up yet where I stand. I can only say that I feel one thing and think another.