Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

Everything Evangelion Fanfiction related.

Moderator: Board Staff

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:28 pm

What would happen if Kaworu approached Misato in episode 24 instead of Shinji, and the two of them mutually bonded over a long-hidden connection tracing back to the day of Second Impact?

AO3 link, FF.net link



I've accepted that Crying Man just isn't ready to happen, and so I've allowed myself to scratch the same general itch with a new, much shorter story. For those who don't know my tendencies, I absolutely love the idea that Dr. Katsuragi was the donor for the contact experiment with Adam. It has IMHO fascinating repercussions for both characters and lore alike. This story will explore both angles with, I hope, equal levels of passion, focusing on the two (extant) characters most impacted (nyuk nyuk) if the "donor = Dr. K" premise is accepted as true. Those being, of course, Misato and Kaworu.

The "MisaKawo" labeling implies this is an incest fic, and, while there definitely is an element of that, my goals are much broader. All sexual elements are (I hope) grounded within a larger framework of identity, (recovery from) trauma, interpersonal trust, and the like. I don't condone incest or hebephilia IRL, but bizarre and convoluted fictional situations like this one are wonderful grounds for the exploration of uncomfortable topics.

This fic acts as the hypothetical prequel to a complete rewrite of my unfinished "BAD END" fic. One of the totally on-point criticisms of "BAD END" was that my interpretation of Adam was not justified through any actual buildup, and she easily came off as completely severed from Kaworu. For years I've mulled over a way to solve the problem while mentally updating my so-called "BAD END" scenario (the gist of which is: instead of being killed by Shinji, Kaworu successfully resurrects as Adam), and this story is what I've come up with. This isn't to say that everybody will be happy with my interpretation of Kaworu, because, oh boy, they won't be; but since this is an effort to explore angles and topics left largely or completely ignored in the original work, I make no apologies.

For now, I'm going to concentrate on completing FBLM. If I do, then perhaps a follow-up will materialize.

amitakartok
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1572
Joined: Jan 05, 2011
Location: The Ass End of Nowhere (TM)
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Alt Continuity / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby amitakartok » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:27 pm

Interesting idea.

You know, I've had a similar question floating in my mind for years now (what if Kaworu was Misato's biological son courtesy of a fragment of Adam lodged into her body during Second impact?) but nobody seemed to bite on it. Maybe you'll have more luck with this.
Strategic Cyborg Evangelion : an average author's aspiring attempt at awesomeness. Currently at chapter 42.

Mana, Mayumi and Sakura: the TRUE goddesses of Eva

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Alt Continuity / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:02 pm

Thanks, I hope so!

Next two chapters are out. Kaworu has made his first move.

3: Psycho-Hazard
4: The Herald

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Alt Continuity / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:30 pm

I like your writing style, it's short and to the point, peppered with great varyity in your descriptions and just the right amount of swearing to paint a picture of the characters without being gratuitous. I am not exactly interested in the pairing but the premise is intriguing regardless, so, I am looking forward to reading more of this and see where you take it.

As an aside, I don't think you should feel the need to justify your themes, however uncomfortable (which is right there with Eva, which always was highly uncomfortable). Part of the fun of writing for me is testing the boundaries, of yourself as well as your audience, and just writing about something is hardly an endorsement anyways.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Alt Continuity / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:59 pm

Chapter 5: Ghosts is up!

Derantor, thanks so much for taking a look and sharing your thoughts!

I know my writing is "technically competent", but I've often wondered how well it functions "literarily". For whatever reason, I've felt somewhat self-conscious about how threadbare everything tends to be. Glad to hear that it might just be in my head (as many such hang-ups are...).

The whole "pairing" aspect of the story is pretty weird. I would consider the "shipping" element of this fic to be... incidental, or a means to an end, maybe? The relationship itself (in all its weirdness and complexity) is important, but the whole ideology of SHIPPING the characters isn't. I don't know if that makes any sense.

I started off wanting to see what would happen if Misato and Kaworu discovered they were siblings, and began to forge a bond from there. But, since I'm working from the premise that Kaworu is (in visual terms) a younger palette swap of Misato's dad, and Misato has a pretty messed up Daddy Complex, it felt pretty much inevitable that she would at least TRY to sleep with him, sooner or later. So, what then? Does Kaworu reject her the way Shinji did? Something else? Everything kind of spiraled out of control from there. We'll see how it goes.

You're absolutely right that the attempt at justification is unnecessary. I think I'm mostly just not used to putting my work out there, so when I do, I have no idea what I should and shouldn't say. I'll reconsider what the author's note should say. I'm incidentally the same way -- a big reason I write is to test the boundaries of myself and others. Rather Eva-like when you put it that way...

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Alt Continuity / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:29 am

You're welcome!

In depth ramblings regarding sentence structure and writing stlye where I basically just repeat myself and veer off into tangents. Contains spoilers for the story as well, so be warned!  SPOILER: Show
Hm, well, it is pretty threadbare, but that doesn't detract from it. It's first person (or rather, deep-third person, or whatever that's called) and present tense, so in a sense, it's a direct representation of the characters thoughts. The directness of the writing, the shortness of many sentences gives it an immediacy and punch that fits well with the style of thoughts these characters have. They are not happy or bubbly or flowery and poetic (most of the time), they are pretty down. At the same time, people don't think everything out in full detail, most thoughts are just fragments, you don't have to explain your thoughts to yourself. Same goes for descriptions; when looking into a room, you don't notice every single detail, or no details at all if your thoughts are somewhere else. Your writing just says what's important and leaves out the rest.

I mean, you are not writing a grand fairy tale of our heroine selflessly bearing the dreary evils of hell's fiendish demons unleashed upon her, so there's no need to nurture the forest of words and grow it into the shape of a heartfelt embrace or the colour of Sol's light playing with the morning dew on leaves of budding grass in the spring, sunlight dancing and prancing and lifting the veil, tossing and turning and spinning a tale, and a boy loves a girl and she loves him back, and everybody leaves and thinks what the heck? ... Anyways ...

For example, these sentences from chapter four:
"Now, mere days remain before all that opportunity is gone forever. A source of mixed feelings. Mostly ones of unbound jubilation. But sorrow, too, because of what this body represents. They might meet again, but under circumstances ushering in unprecedented change. This is Tabris ’s last chance to experience the world much as he had."
read to me like the train of thought of Tabris, as he himself is moving from one thing to the next. When reading them, after every short sentence I make a pause, let it sink in. There is not a wasted word here, nothing is superfluous. You say what you want to say, and you say just enough, you don't hide anything. There's no pointless fluff. It's just direct. I always worry about saying too much (because, as you can witness right here, I tend to keep on talking and talking and talking) - most of my edits remove things, make them shorter. From my outside perspective, your writing is just on point in this regard, but of course, being the author yourself, you might worry that things that shouldn't get lost do get lost. But that whole first passage from Tabris point of view is just right. In my view, those are the best written paragraphs in the fic so far (and they make me envious).

What I worry about as well when writing in this style is that people just read things too fast. The short sentences allow you to read staccato, and if you do that, it sounds ... trivial? I can not really put it into words, but it changes the feeling from one of solemn contemplation to one of "Oh, the author kept forgetting things and added them later, just kept piling on short sentences because they didn't know what to do." At least thats my fear when writing like this; I view it like music, where the tempo matters immensely. Play a sad piece at double speed and suddenly everything sounds comical. But playing a few notes very slowly gives every note much more meaning - just like writing short sentences gives each word more weight. I just wish there was some way to dictate the tempo of reading, as short sentences can also be used to create a sense of urgency. This is a problem mostly encountered by the writers themselvse, though, I feel. Writing, reading and rereading, editing the same stuff over and over again makes you so familiar with your writing that it becomes boring when you are finished with it and you wonder what was good about it in the first place.

I wish I had a better grasp of the english language so that I could translate a few excerpts from my fic (which is doubly hard since things get so lost in translation), where I run into similar problems and doubts. The chapters are split between pairs of characters; the first few just follow Shinji and Asuka, and they both are pretty confused, insecure and downright depressed. So, the writing style is short, repetitive, barebones. Dialogue is almost non-existant, since they still fear opening up and words are easily misunderstood, and while there are extended sections describing the characters thoughts, most of the time I just describe their actions without mentioning their thoughts at all, since they won't admit those thoughts, even to themselves - so it feels wrong to put their thoughts into writing when they don't even dare to think them. Like that would somehow intrude on their privacy. Even their feelings are just expressed by describing their outward appearance. There are almost no descriptions of their surroundings, because the characters don't care. There is a whole section describing five days of Asuka's solitary journey where she speaks only four words out loud and there is no internal monologue at all since she has completely closed herself off - which is a much more severe case of threadbareness than your style, but it has the same general issue (or non-issue; As you pointed out, the writer always worries much more about those things).

Later chapters introduce other characters, mainly Kensuke, Maya and Aoba, and they are in a much better place - so the writing becomes more prosaic, richer in metaphors and descriptions, the dialogue gets less guarded and more natural, people say pointless and superfluous things, etc., to support the mood of the scenes. Which of course creates a massive disconnect between chapters and the feeling that the writing is of different quality; which it is, by design. There are passages in the first chapters where everything that happens is done by one character or the other, so almost every sentence starts with "He did/She did", which I am slowly trying to improve, and you showed me an example which works much better from a literary perspective. You keep the variety while still being concise and "basic" in the sense that nothing is filtered or coloured by the characters second-guessing or sugar-coating their own thoughts, or trying to make them more palatable. You also don't share my fear of using metaphor or comparison to portray things, which never feels out of place in your writing but it very much does in my own. Or, maybe I am just overanalyzing things, but ... thats what I got out of it.

Ugh, that turned out much longer than I intended it to be. I hope I didn't bore you or sounded too self absorbed, and I am not trying to push my own fic, I just felt the need to explain my train of thought and thats easiest for me when comparing it to what I am doing. I don't know whether you intentionally followed the same choice of "writing style fits the mood" or intended it to come of that way, but it works well regardless.

So, TLDR, don't worry about your style, it fits exctly with what you're doing. It isn't boring and it puts you in the right mood. Technical competence is what allows it to function so well, your technical skill makes it interesting (and is really impressive). So yes, it works literarily as well.

Regarding the shipping: Oh yes, I get exactly what you mean. I am coming from the same angle in my writing; the pairings are not there for wish fullfillment or because it is the "only true love". It isn't there to be good for the characters or fix things either. It might, but that's not the point, so to speak. As you said, it just feels inevitable that some things happen, so you have to write them and see where it is going, even if those things are wrong, unhealthy and uncomfortable.

Regarding the authors notes: No need to change them if that makes you uncomfortable. It takes some guts to publish ones thoughts and make them manifest in the world, and especially in our current culture of outrage it can't hurt to distance oneself from certain things beforehand (and in a fandom that loves to overanalize things as well).

Sooo, regarding chapter five:
SPOILER: Show
"Does it have any holes at all? It must, because her father’s thing is repeatedly going some where."
Hahaha, I love this sentence. It's just the kind of thought you have where afterwards you feel awkward for even thinking it. Putting it to paper is even worse. I liked that the first third of the chapter is her weird sexualised dream; puts just the right amount of uncomfortableness into it. The kind of non-fanservice I like, and it sets up and foreshadows the ultimate "conflict" of the story pretty nicely while expanding on the backstory.

I do not want to comment on the plot itself very much, I'd rather just watch where it is going for now. I'll just say that so far, everything makes sense. And as trivial as that sounds, that's in my eyes the most important thing. I can just repeat myself and say that it is interesting, in the best sense of the word. The story is gripping me more the further it is going. There is just one thing that's unclear to me: Is the last sentence spoken by Ritsuko after Misato left, or is it Misato saying it? I guess it's the former, but somehow it reads weird. Might just me be thinking too much, though.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Alt Continuity / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:37 pm

Chapter 6: Grief and Regret is up!


@Derantor: We seem to have a similar mindset on a lot of things, which is pretty neat. :thumbsup:

Really interesting thoughts on writing style. It gives me a lot to think about that I normally wouldn't. Being able to write about writing is a skill in and of itself -- being able to identify and describe what works, what doesn't, why, and so forth. I'm in awe of anyone who can do it!

(I never would have guessed that English was a second language for you! Is the non-English fic you mentioned the same one as this?)

It's interesting... A fan of my great unfinished monster, Crying Man (a novel-length work about Misato's dad), actually finds Father Brother &c. disappointing so far. I don't think I've gotten worse or anything; to me, it seems more like... they are fundamentally different sorts of pieces, and the unique demands imposed by each story come out in the writing style, even if I'm not consciously thinking about it. Like, if you look at Crying Man's word count, it's monstrous, and the story hasn't even progressed that far. Part of that's because I never tried to write a novel start-to-finish before, so the first draft is a complete mess -- but at least some of that "bloat" is probably on purpose. Much of that story is a claustrophobic meditation upon mental illness, involving the protagonist (Akira Katsuragi) being trapped inside his head unable to escape the sway of his own distorted, highly repetitive thought patterns. When I go back to CM, I'll probably be much more aware of my own stylistic choices than I was before.

Your support and comments mean a lot right now. I keep telling myself, out of brute necessity, that I have to write the fic for myself first and foremost, but having another set of eyes available helps alleviate a lot of anxiety and doubt, not to mention getting through the less-fun parts is easier when I know someone is following along and looking forward to the next part. So, again, thank you! :D

Regarding chapter 5: Glad you enjoyed the dream sequence! The "T(w)een Misato" narrative voice I developed for Crying Man is a gift that keeps on giving -- the whole combination of "I'm a cool young adult who is totally above all this gross adult stuff", and her particular choice of things to fixate upon humorously giving away just what a horny and confused mess she actually is. I love it so much. As for the "final sacrifice" line, that is supposed to be Ritsuko, yeah. Funny enough, I did consider adjusting that part to eliminate any possible ambiguity, but for some reason I didn't listen to my brain at the time...

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:08 pm

Yeah, seems like it, and it is indeed neat^^ I feared we'd been off to a bad start because of the other thread and my general negativity, but it seems like that was a bad assumption on my part. And thank you very much, glad to know that you found it interesing ^_^

(Yes, it is the same fic. If you'd be interested, I'd like to talk more about it and writing in general but I don't want to clutter up this thread with stuff unrelated to your story, so, maybe we can talk through PM?)

I'll give you my thoughts on Crying Man tomorrow, since it's getting late here (3:30 am 4:08 am in Germany right now and my mind is getting mushy). I'm glad that I can be of help, I enjoy giving feedback! So, again, you're welcome ^_^ (The "Writing just for yourself" is bollocks anyways; without wanting to sound pretentious, the people you know or the potential audience and their reactions are always in the back of your mind, and there's no way to shut out their nagging objections. Or rather, their imagined ones, since people who actually care about their stuff are their own harshest critics. And a book that nobody reads isn't really a book, just like music without sound isn't music at all.)

Regarding chapter 5: Yeah, she studies every detail but she calls his penis his "thing" - if that isn't a dead givaway, I don't know what is. Also kudos for making her secret desires explicit and running with it. I always find it hard to assign desires and flaws to characters I didn't invent.

My maybe confused thoughts on chapter 6 with spoilers  SPOILER: Show
Lots of exposition - which is good, since it's from Misatos PoV (and I find that sometimes, telling rather than showing works best). I interpret it as her fundamentally misunderstanding him: Contrary to caring somewhere deep down, he cared very very much about both of them, he was just afraid. This is also a common trope, I think, and the difference between male and female thinking and behavioral patterns, or, even more basic, the assumption that because he loves one thing (his work) he doesn't love the other: Her and her mom. Or I am just projecting my own behaviour onto him and am making excuses^^

Well, I wrote the above after reading halfway through. Seems like she didn't misunderstand him so hard after all - a nice transition from hatred to self-hatred.

I like the continuity nods, GF-01, for example, and the foreshadowing of Shinjis choice in Instrumentality, although that might be a little too explicit no, my brain's giving out. I thought you talked about "nobody else existing", but it was just him not existing. Also a nice parallel to Shinji, who suffered the same fate at the hands of Yui. The details concerning the contact experiment in Antarctica you spliced into the story seem natural as well (or maybe I am confusing that with stuff I read in crying man. I am going to bed right now).

I wanted to mention this earlier, but forgot to do so: I like your inclusion of fan theories - like the fact that the angels seem to learn, and what that means for Nervs defenses. It makes the characters seem intelligent without giving them knowledge they shouldn't have.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:20 am

If you plan on commenting on Crying Man, may as well bump its devoted thread! ;) If I knew you were going to take a look, I would have implemented a small but important change to Chapter 2 that I've been putting off, but oh well...

Glad you appreciate the stuff about Misato's, er, "secret desires". I've noticed over my many years discussing the show that the... less savory aspects of Misato tend to get downplayed and ignored an awful lot, and I never really understood why this was. I guess there is the whole mental dissonance aspect: "I like this character, and hebephilia is bad, and Misato isn't bad, therefore she can't have any hebephilic tendencies". (The relevance of the "hebephilia" here being that Shinji is, according to her sick subconscious, a little version of Daddy that she might have thought she could keep from "abandoning" her on account of her being an adult with power over him, or something to that effect.) I honestly think it's not only okay, but important, that likeable fictional characters get "nasty urges", since IRL there's the temptation to "dehumanize" people who behave against such social proscriptions as, say, "don't lust after your father" and "don't try to take sexual advantage of young people you're in a position of power over". The only way to control for the occurrences of this stuff IRL is to understand that people wearing an ID card that says "Certified Villain" don't do it -- people you might like, respect, or even love do.

But anyway... I adore Misato in all her ridiculous psychoanalytical splendor, and because I am clearly a disturbed individual, I take great pleasure in exploring the origins and ramifications of her infantile desire for Daddy's Thingy.
:freud:

Misato's speculations about her father's motives are indeed supposed to present a parallel to Shinji. ("It'd be better if I wasn't here either. So I should just die, too.") I'm not going to say where Misato currently stands in her understanding of Daddy Dearest -- she's just making guesses based on what she remembers, so her opinion isn't meant to be "objectively correct" or anything. (I'm not really the kind of storyteller who's going to tell people what to believe about a character, anyway... I try not to, at least.) But that said...

he cared very very much about both of them, he was just afraid

...the same themes show up again and again in Evangelion's characters, and if I didn't take this into account when expanding upon Misato's dad, I wouldn't be doing a very good job, now would I? ;)

Having the characters question everything and speculate about what's happening has made this story a more interesting exercise than it might otherwise have been. Some of the ideas I include are ones I already put I lot of mental mileage into (like the "Angel ghosts" thing); others are things I scarcely or even never considered until now, like the possibility that Misato might have just assumed the 2nd Angel was the Evas collectively. Glad you're enjoying that aspect!

Nothing about the contact experiment has been revealed in Crying Man yet (as it's still a long way from actually happening), but I've been revealing bits and pieces over the course of this story.

(Regarding PM, my inbox is a disaster that's always on the brink of overflow. E-mail might be a better idea... :sweatdrop: )

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:18 pm

Oh, right, there is another thread already. I even saw it and forgot about it completely.
Don't sweat it, I haven't started reading yet. My brain currently refuses to get sufficiently calm to get into the mood ...

Regarding the treatment of Misato: Hm, it's also a gendered issue, I think. If Misato was male and Shinji female ... hooo boy ... she'd be one of the villains of the show. If Asuka rubbed one out over comatose Shinji, there would never have been any waifu-wars after EoE - she'd finally won one thing in her life. On the other hand, if Shinji was a girl and Ayanami a guy, Rei slapping him for badmouthing Gendo would cross sooo many lines ...
Otherwise I can just agree; Misato being, alongside Kaji, the only "heroic", "well adjusted" and "selfless" characters compared to the others will give her some lee-way. And she's got nice tits. :shrug: Who'd object to that? Edit: Certainly not the male audience, me thinks, so they will forgive her even more.

Regarding her views of her father, yeah, certainly. I doubt she can view him objectively, ever. Also, he's dead. Nobody knows what he is thinking, all thats left is speculation. But who am I telling that, that's kinda the point of the story :D

(Allright, thanks. I will try to write something up. I need an outside perspective on a few ideas I keep juggling in my head which I don't dare speak publicly yet)

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:04 pm

Chapters 7 and 8 are up!

7: Lifeshell
8: Chains

@Derantor: PM response is currently in progress!

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:11 am

Nice, two chapters at once! Let's get right to it!

Chapter 7  SPOILER: Show
Authors notes first:
There must be buildings hanging out: They would have been retracted once Armisael showed up, and then they need to still be in place so that the crater left by Rei's self-destruction could be filled with water. There are no skyscrapers visible in the Armisael battle, afaik, only the shorter buildings of the outskirts. but since the lake covers the center of Tokyo 3, the battle must have taken place there. No skyscrapers visible = retracted below the surface, then stuck there when the city was destroyed.

"Alien-speak" wasn't overblown, I didn't stumble over it while reading. Going back after having my attention focused on it by your notes, the only thing that stands out after reading through it again is "chronometry device" - chronometer might be enough.

Right, this left me full of interesting questions: Is Tabris' concept of "male" and "female" human or angelic in nature? He obviously knows about sexual intercourse, is that how Seeds of Life/Angels reproduce? (And now I am curious if there will be angelic wet dreams in this, in parallel to Misato's fantasies. :shifty: ) Or is that simply something he picked up? He called himself She in his previous incarnation, but given the different makeup of angels and humans, is that even ... I don't know, isn't it like comparing apples and oranges? Or are they really that similar on a basic level? He mentioned the more "natural" state of souls in trees, implying that you could split off a part which would grow into another being - is that how the SoL created the angels? "Not reliably able to create new souls" - afaik, there were no artificial souls in Eva, this comment implies something a little different. Ist this related to Multiple-Rei-Theory? He mentioned the Life-Shell still being intact, but now having been made "comfortable" - was it just completely empty when it was built? Or just full of utalitarian machinery needed to store/create/distribute souls and support the single passenger? Who is his Mama? How exactly was he brought up? Why does he talk about her like she's dead/left him? Aaah, so many questions ...

“I’ll come and get you. You’ll be safe again, inside me… back where you began.” < - I guess he is talking about the angel's souls, here? I got it mixed up a little with his Mama (who I thought was some human caretaker of his, but now that I think about it, does he speak about Adam and sees himself as some kind of off-spring? Can people become Most Exalted Mothers (= a seed of life? The Yui = SoL connection?)), because he talked about her soul still lingering just before.

So, consider me intrigued. I do not expect answers to all those questions above later in the story, but you certainly gave yourself enough to work with and explore in later chapters, picking up all the fan theories, it seems. I liked the indirect reminder that Kaji is dead already, with nobody caring for his lemons melons (curious how my fingers typed the first word even though I was thinking of the other, and how those words are just different arrangements of the same letters ... assosciative freudian slip tangential drifting syndrome strikes again!). Overall, his state of self-awareness yet almost complete alienation was portrayed nicely (with him wondering how to reduce his fear inducing air of strangeness to approach the human animal more easily in the wild). I am also very fond of the "well meant lesson" backfiring spectacularily, with him basically developing a death wish - something which is rarely touched on, even though it seems to happen an awful lot in real life.

A short chapter, but full of stuff to explore and wonder about. I thoroughly enjoyed it!


Chapter 8  SPOILER: Show
Hm, I would't call this chapter garbage. (Edit: Foot-in-mouth-moment: I meant that it was far away from garbage, not that it was barely above garbage ...) That said, I can understand why you feel that way. There is a slightly different feeling to this chapter - but that might only be because you drew attention to the fact that you are unhappy with it, colouring my impression of it all. Still, being the author, this really slight difference must feel far larger than it actually is. I think some of this difference is due to the fact that this chapter is slightly more plot-focused than the rest - if that is even putting it correctly. It feels ... faster?

Still, this chapter continues all the good trends you follow: Tying it all up with fan theories and continuity, while giving the perspective of the characters. I especially enjoyed Nagisas views on Lilith and Yui, how he feels uneasy being close to the latter but knows that she can not harm him right now if she wants to stay hidden. I think I got everything Misato was alluding to (and being wrong about) in the first part, but I have no clue what that "A" thingy is supposed to be. It reminds me of the Lance of Longinus by its description, but ... that doesn't have any As ... Ahlspieß of Cassius, perchance?

I am mildly surprised that Nagisa is afraid of contact - maybe I misread him before, but it seemed more like he was just unable to initiate it properly and was worried that others feared him while being detached himself. Or this is just a new side of him I wasn't aware of before. Edit Two: Well, I guess it isn't surprising that he is afraid of being hurt - or of contact with Lilith. I forgot who Rei actually is to him while reading and never went back to check my thoughts on that line.

"Back when Tabris did not look like them. Not nearly enough." Ough, either he is talking about his adamic form, or this implies something much more disturbing done to him after being born in lilin form ... By being so vague it certainly gives a sense of unease in a few words that's hard to achieve with longer descriptions. His later thoughts when confronting Unit-01 point to the former, though. Poor Tabris, continuing the Eva trend of horrible childhoods ... And now I wonder how a being like an Angel even experiences "Childhood".

Reg. Asuka: Hm, yeah, I guess it is difficult to get a visceral reaction from Misato without Asuka actually doing something to herself besides refusing to eat. Misatos past gets darker and darker, it seems. Also nice parallel to Ritsuko with the "I do not want to turn into my mother" thing.


Suggestions for when you want to touch chapter 8 again later on  SPOILER: Show
I can only empathise with your perfectionist woes.

The only passage that really stood out was the first section. It doesn't really ... flow? I think those sections are always terrible to write, when you have to get a character to come to some conclusion needed to move the story forwards without it sounding like exactly that. It is always awkward having them think one thing, then dismissing it and trying something else which just happens to be close to the truth. Even though it is natural to assume those things, it still feels like she just red the other chapters and tries to sound like she came up with it all on her own, and since it is basically a rehash of information already presented to the reader, there is nothing new to learn here besides her perspective, either.

(Edit: After writing this, I noticed the strange contradiction to my earlier praise of characters thinking about the implication of things. I am not sure why this passage, which is basically just that, felt so different while reading it. I hit a road block writing a similar passage - so maybe this is just my trouble doing them spilling over into my reading of the scene, adding meta-context that isn't really there in the text.)

Maybe a version where, instead of Misato questioning herself, you mash together parts one and two works better: While she is talking to Hyuga, her mind keeps drifting to Kaworu and she wonders about his origins and the nature of the Evas.

A rough example:
Hyuga takes another swig of water and replaces the cap. “You look pretty rough around the edges, Major. What’s going on?”

Kaworu might be related to her father. Akira might have had ... 'sex' with an angel, if those disturbing memories are anything to go by. Or maybe Ritsuko just lost it and Misato herself is going crazy from not knowing half of what she should be privy to in her position. She just can not stop thinking about her dream, revealing too much interest in things she'd rather not be interested in at all. Part of her would love to just share all her troubling thoughts with somebody, but Hyuga does not deserve being demoted to emotional garbage bin. “Coffee and nightmares,” she says simply.

Hyuga looks slightly dubious, but he doesn’t press the matter. “So I heard you got through to Ritsuko-san. What happened? Did she know anything?”

"Ritsuko was ..." Misato frowns. A pointless question. Ritsuko always knows something. Her calling Nagisa Misato's half-brother must have meant something beyond the literal. It doesn't make sense, though. The Evas are clones - if the Fifth is anything like them, that would prohibit the exchange of genetic material. So what was meant by “A way to join Man and God”? If anything, he looks exactly like her father, not some "recombination", as Ritsuko put it. This is all a little too personal to reveal to Hyuga at this point - she feels a little foolish about it, but the risks are just too great. This HAS to remain a secret for now. Sighing, she says, “I kind of regret going to see her at all. It hurts seeing her like that.”


Only a suggestion, I am not sure sure it works better, or if you were dissastisfied with the first part in the first place.


(Regarding the PM: Ah, thanks! I made a mistake, though - it remained in the "Out-box" folder, never went to "Sent", so I thought it wasn't sent at all, edited and deleted it later - besides me now not knowing which version you recieved, I am not sure if it broke the interface. If you answered already, I didn't recieve it.)

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:23 am

Chapter 9 is up!

@Derantor: Wow, thanks so much for the detailed comments! I won't respond to everything, but just know how much I appreciate it. :heart:

Ch.7  SPOILER: Show
Good observations on the buildings. I had some similar thoughts, but you pointed out some things I didn't notice. You also made me realize that what the map marks as "The Center of the Explosion" (completely within city confines) is entirely inconsistent with where the explosion actually happened (in the forest right off the edge of the city). :facepalm: Goddamnit, NGE!

I did think "chronometry device" was pushing the boundaries of good taste, but for some reason "chronometer" did not occur to me; thank you for the injection of good sense. ^_^

The entire topic of sex (in a general biological sense) will get "interrogated" further by the story as it goes along, so hopefully many of your questions will be addressed. (I'm flattered the story is prompting so many!)

I can see why "not being able to reliably create new souls" might cause confusion. This is meant to account for the probable existence of "normal biotechnology", where, say, embryos can be created in vitro, or animals can be successfully cloned from the somatic cells of an adult donor. These technologies have a high rate of failure, which in NGE might be explained by saying "it's difficult to ensoul life that's been created this way, and Lilin can't yet do it reliably". Where more "alien" things like Evas, or clones sprouted off Lilith's body (i.e., Rei), are concerned, Lilin can't do it at all; "ensoulment upon creation" success rate is 0%. Kaworu is wondering if this explains why his body started off empty, even though it was created by two living beings engaged in genetic recombination. Mostly, these musings were meant to show that while Kaworu casually contemplates matters that constitute "arcane knowledge", there are some things about himself even he doesn't know.

The ways the "Moons" work might come up again later, and I'm pretty sure "Mama" will also, so I'll leave those alone for now...

“I’ll come and get you. You’ll be safe again, inside me… back where you began.” < - I guess he is talking about the angel's souls, here? I got it mixed up a little with his Mama

That was just a clumsy segue -- Kaworu wondering if "Mama's" soul is still around prompting him think about the souls that definitely are still around and can be saved. I could make that clearer, yeah.

I am also very fond of the "well meant lesson" backfiring spectacularily, with him basically developing a death wish - something which is rarely touched on, even though it seems to happen an awful lot in real life.

I left that part ambiguous on purpose, but could you tell me more about how your interpreted it? Just in case it's an angle I didn't consider... :emogendo:


Ch.8  SPOILER: Show
I'm glad to know I might have been a tad melodramatic about this chapter's suckiness. The first two people who read it were pretty open that the chapter needed help, which confirmed my own inner doubts and suspicions, and... I've been in that spiral too many times already, but it's SUCH a tempting one to slip into...

Your idea of combining the first two segments is a good one. I love how your suggestions mimic the story's style too! Gets the point across really well. But also, as you mention, a lot of the first section can simply be eliminated for its redundancy. Whatever I thought I was trying to accomplish when I wrote it didn't pan out, clearly.

I also think I was extremely preemptive about Misato coming to any meaningful conclusions about such entirely irrelevant (to her) things as what the biological sex of some creepy alien might have been. That stuff just isn't going to be at the forefront of her mind, and I'm not really sure what I was thinking. Like, her weird dream implies that she DOES know what Adam is, on some level, but her waking mind isn't in any particular hurry to start contemplating the matter... Her need to mentally process "I have a goddamn Angel for a brother" is more than enough for now. She can deal with "my dad knocked up the First Angel?!?" later.

The reason for Kaworu's discomfort around Rei could definitely be made clearer. Mainly because, with the scene as it is, it's not really evident, even to me, why he did what he did. That scene obviously needed to happen at some point, but I need to refine its sense of purpose a bit more.

Regarding the "A" thingy -- don't worry, you aren't supposed to know what the "A" stands for. Yet.

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:14 am

Don't worry about not responding to everything - I've got too much free time at my hands, I guess you are in a much less enviable position. I enjoy doing this, going into detail and musing about tangents, so als long as you get something out of it and as long as my comments don't come off as self-absorbed or patronizing to you (because you might already know everything I am talking about), all is right with the world! ^_^

Chapter 7  SPOILER: Show
Yeah, the inconsistencies are so frustrating to work with. But it is funny how they are just overlooked when watching the show - one of the hard lessons I had to learn about writing: Most of the time, not mentioning things that draw attention to inconsistencies works better than trying to come up with a consistent story in the first place (regarding details like the layout of houses, cities, etc). As long as it is somewhat plausible, it doesn't matter if it is, for example, physically impossible to have the sun shine through both the kitchen and bedroom windows at the same time because they need to be at opposite sides of the house to fit everything inside and connect all the rooms without overlapping them. Misato's apartment, although it does have a consistend layout, doesn't need to have one: Since the characters are only shown entering or leaving a room, but never shown actually walking from, let's say, the balcony to their bedrooms in one uninterrupted shot, the connections between the rooms might just as well be portals to another dimension.

Regarding soul creation: Ah, nice, that clears that up. I think you should leave it as it is, though. Not being able to follow his thoughts exactly actually enhances the feeling that his mind is working on a different level.

Regarding the well meant lesson: This assumes that he behaves like a human in most regards, and not completely alien. As I understand it, Mama was basically telling him how cruelty and suffering makes him kinder - which caused cognitive dissonance in him because suffering is inherently bad, yet she says it is "good", if only to teach a lesson. Continuing this train of thought logically, more suffering must mean more chances to achieve kindness - so having to suffer extremely all his life, it should be very easy for him to become a kind, gentle, and thus, good person. But despite that, he never learned to cope with the horrors he had to endure - he couldn't take her lesson to heart and see the positive side of things, harbouring feelings of revenge and anger, or "unkindness", which he felt is entirely his fault, because he failed to take her lesson to heart. So, he concludes that, if life always has suffering in it, and the more the better in the long run, suffering is the point of life: Living means suffering. And since he is unable to get anything good out of it at all, living to him means nothing BUT suffering. That's why he wishes to escape. This is also why he wishes to keep all harm away from Shinji: He says Mama was wrong. Suffering is not the point of life, avoiding suffering as much as possible is. Suffering can teach you nothing, it will only accumulate until you eventually are completely broken. So he tries the different extreme.

Edit: Or to put it more simply: Life is only created to be abandoned + abandonment is pain = life is pain = life is not worth living at all.

Not sure if this makes sense, but this kind of all-or-nothing, black and white thinking is something I associate with depression and uprooted people struggling to find some deeper, absolute truth to kling to.


Chapter 8  SPOILER: Show
Tell me about it ... I've rewritten the first chapter of my story about fifteen times now, and at one point, every iteration got worse, because it is so easy to think that nothing you do has any value at all, so I constantly tried to do something different, and most importantly, not like I did it previously. Needless to say, that eliminated all the good stuff that was there from the beginning and left me at a point where I completely lost any sense of what I wanted to achieve when I started and with the feeling that nothing I did could improve anything. That's why I wanted to reassure you that, while the chapter is not perfect, you are still on the right path and just have to remember your strengths.

:freud:
Reading your own thoughts about Misatos state of mind, I think you tried to accomplish too much too fast - I guess, having the story already more or less finished inside your head and mulling over the same things over and over, you mixed up your own thought process with Misato's: You thought it all through, so she did as well - she is highly intelligent, after all, so it is obvious that she MUST come to all those conclusions, thus, there is no reason to not write it down right now. That way you can also get to the parts you are eager to write about more quickly - so win win on all fronts.

Regarding the Kaworu/Rei scene: I think the only tweak really needed is to (subtly) remind the reader at the beginning that he is not seeing Rei, but Lilith. He spells it out at the end, which is why it clicked for me when reading it all again, but it is just too confusing with him calling her The First (Children, in this context, not angel, as Shinji is described as the Third immediatly before) and saying she is the same as him: Pointing to their horrible childhoods, artificial nature and enslavement by the lilim, NOT their shared nature and conflict as Seeds. And he is being thankful for the opportunity to meet her, all pointing to eagerness and empathy, not reluctance and dread. Then again, it really is obvious in hindsight or with a little thinking on the readers part, and then all his actions do make sense as well, after getting recontextualized that way. In canon, the scene plays out more or less exactly the same, with him trying to remind her of her nature, that parallel alone should be enough. But then again, in that scene he is smiling all the time, giving off an air of complete and utter control and ease of mind ... Ah well, I am going in circles again.^^


(Jesus, how fast are you writing these chapters? Or are you just releasing them long after they've been written?)
Chapter 9  SPOILER: Show
"Nope, it’s coming with her." < - pet peeve of mine: The "Nope" gives too much levity and the sentence is a little redundant.

That said, that first part especially is just adorable. It warms my cold, dead heart to see her watching him and recognizing the child in him, while being weirdly attracted at the same time - without it ever coming off forced, cheesy or "waffy" in the traditional sense, planting the seeds of their further journey together, with her already slightly losing sight of his true nature and intentions due to her feelings, setting them up for the inevitable bad end. The kind of tragic romance I love: Subdued, strange, "wrong", painful and doomed, where the bright moments are but a glimmer and the darkness is ever present. Just like this Wagner piece played on a piano that is weirdly attracked to Lieutenant Aoba for some reason, where dissonance and minor keys never allow the music to shed its sense of melancholy, while still carrying enough force and aggression to not dissolve into a sugary molasses of sweetness.

So, what can I say. This chapter just works for me, besides that one tiny sentence mentioned above. I am tempted to just hold onto my first impressions for now, without trying to analyze it at all. Later, when I will inevitably feel ashamed for getting so poetic, I might take a second look at that, though.

Well, I guess I can briefly address the flashback format: The text itself is fine, the first flashback just looks a little disjointed due to the formatting of the page. Maybe justified text (is that really the correct word?) with indentions (uh ... is THAT the right word?) on both sides would make it look a little more solid and not clash so hard against the look of the rest of the page. Giving it a little more ... girth :shifty:

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:18 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:Jesus, how fast are you writing these chapters? Or are you just releasing them long after they've been written?

As fast as I can, I suppose! "Riding the wave", and all. For the second question: I do a fair amount of "pre-writing", and some of this ends up actually being usable -- but only some.

Replies from me coming later -- for now, a gift:

Chapter 10: Thanatos

I partly feel like the chapter is weakened a bit on account of the siblings' conversation getting too long, forcing me to split it in two... but oh well.

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:28 pm

Ah, just what I was waiting for :D

Chapter 10  SPOILER: Show
Somehow I red FAR more sexual innuendo into the sentence “I have… ways… of securing a moment that is truly alone.” than I think I should have - unless that was intended. :emogendo:

Allright, general (first) impressions first! Instead of subdued attraction, this time I get full on "Drag him into the bedroom now!" vibes from Misato. At first I was a little disappointed, but then I remembered how Kaworu appears in canon, and, yeah, you pretty much nailed that unreasonable attractiveness he seems to emit. "So tender and soft it’s excruciating" describes it best. Adjectives like "gorgeous" and "angelic" are seldomely used in a dark, brooding fic like this, same goes for Misato gushing over his oh-so attractive features and the need to touch him, so that counts as "purple prose" in my book - which isn't a negative. The shift in tone definitely makes the scene come alive with a different type of energy, and Misato getting lost in her graphic, hateful thoughts (or are those actual memories? Did she really attack him? I read the previous memory of ambulances around her house as a hint that her mother tried to commit suicide, the blood in the bathroom here as well, but now I am not so sure) paints a nice contrast to that towards the end.

Other than that, there is a lot in here. Love the subtle hint that everybody generates an AT-Field (false positives). Took me a moment to decipher, made it all the better when I got it. So much information here, from SEELE to how Instrumentality will play out (casually confirming that ALL life will be tanged, resulting in a completely barren earth with all the animals and plants and microbes only appearing at the ocean shore like the humans, thus damning any returness to death by starvation because it completely fucks over the ecosphere and rendering Shinji's choice meaningless), the nature of humanity as the 18th angel, the inevitability of human self-destructiveness ...

A very nice chapter, much to think about here. The plot thickens, quite literally, and the stakes become apparent. And now I am curious what Kaworu's plan is exactly.

(Or what the next chapter is called. Following Thanatos, there can only be Eros. Nothing that Misato would disapprove of, I am sure, once she gets over her ... misstep with Shinji. I am with her on the inevitability of Third Impact, by the way. Just because there is the drive to do something and we have the ability to do it does not mean it is a foregone conclusion. The cold war proved that pretty impressively, with earth not turning into a radiated hellhole like earth in Space Battleship Yamato, despite ample opportunity and many close calls. Then again, maybe that wasn't for the best, as I'd surely enjoy a ride on a WW2 battleship travelling through space.)

Regarding the chapter notes: Can't say right now how the split affects the chapters - remains to be seen if the chapter should be split in a way that they feel like truly seperate parts, or like a double-feature. In the latter case, letting this chapter end on Misato's last utterance (“Kaworu-kun… I’m— I’m so sorry.”) might work better.

Your second note describes pretty much what I felt when reading: The chapter feels a little ... uneven? Everything below describes my impressions when I read it the first time around, it does feel more natural on the second reading.

The first scene of Misato mulling over things on her mind could use some descriptions to make it feel a little more organic (instead of her recalling him looking over the lake to her noticing him staring in the direction of the lake - he seems to have the ability to look through solid objects anyways, which then prompts her thought that he is still drawn to the angels, for example).

One thing I stumbled over was the section from "He grins. “Already in effect.”" to "Misato doesn ’t have a good response for that.". Misato first feels a little trapped - so much so that she bumps her head; but then she asks a relatively specific question ("Could I open the door and step out without anything bad happening?") instead of a more simple "So, am I trapped?", and then she proceeds to ask him why he is so comfortable, when she seems pretty focused on herself at that moment.

Oh, and there is this sentence: "His bitterness is obvious, but he doesn’t seem to be targeting it at her specifically, at least. “‘Adam’s children’…? That’s what the other Angels were? Not including the first one, of course…”", where it wasn't obvious at first reading that Misato is the speaker here. Lumping the first sentence together with the paragraph above would create a little more clarity.

Other than that, nothing really stuck out to me. The balance of feeling vs. exposition also seemed right: First Misato being enraptured by his (un)godly suaveness, getting earnest and matter-of-factly again when they were disussing extremely serious matters, then her getting lost in her thoughts at the end, a bridge from eros over reason to thanatos.

(Multilingual curiosity: “‘Kaworu’ is fine,” he says. “And you? Have you a preference?” < - that last part, "have you a preference", is that correct grammar? As it is the same in german: "Hast du eine Vorliebe?", and I always thought it would be "(Do) you have a preference?" Just curious if this is poetic freedom or just something people say that I'm not aware of. Or just Kaworu talking like he wants.)


As fast as I can, I suppose!

Which is impressive, given the level of polish of these chapters :thumbsup: I am eagerly awaiting the next part ^_^

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:52 pm

Chapter 10  SPOILER: Show
Somehow I red FAR more sexual innuendo into the sentence “I have… ways… of securing a moment that is truly alone.” than I think I should have - unless that was intended.

I think he’s just being impish there? But I guess it would be reasonable for Misato to interpret it lewdly, now that you mention it…

At first I was a little disappointed, but then I remembered how Kaworu appears in canon, and, yeah, you pretty much nailed that unreasonable attractiveness he seems to emit.

Woo! Yeah, he is… completely ridiculous. He even (in Q) manages to make nausea seem delicate and beautiful. This is, of course, why descriptions of Akira tend to fixate upon his own fragile beauty; he wouldn’t give off quite the same level of “otherworldly vibe” as his illegitimate son, but it would definitely be up there. (I, of course, had to make Akira less attractive than he could have been by giving the poor bastard some kind of eating disorder… not that it did anything to prevent Misato’s complex from developing.)

are those actual memories? Did she really attack him?

That part has Misato’s mind jumping around a bit, forming free associations. Her stabbing a razor blade into Daddy’s “stupid pretty face” — that’s a real memory, but I don’t want to give away what it’s “actually’ referring to.

I am with her on the inevitability of Third Impact, by the way. Just because there is the drive to do something and we have the ability to do it does not mean it is a foregone conclusion.

It’s definitely not the kind of argument that’s going to work on her, certainly — even though it might make perfect sense to somebody who has experienced time on a scale that we can’t even begin to comprehend. The original show is rather frustrating about this “inevitability” thing and makes it a point that just has to be taken for granted, which is obviously not going to work in a story like this…

Multilingual curiosity: “‘Kaworu’ is fine,” he says. “And you? Have you a preference?” < - that last part, "have you a preference", is that correct grammar?

It’s not wrong per se, but it’s a bit… “old-timey”? It gives off an archaic, quaint kind of feeling. (I assume it was the norm at one point — cf. the comparison to German — but somehow changed to the current status quo.) You wouldn’t have a “normal” character use that formation in English. But Kaworu is a weirdo, so he can get away with all sorts of interesting things.


Chapter 7-9  SPOILER: Show
Interesting stuff on “the well-intended lesson”. I shall have to contemplate this…

you mixed up your own thought process with Misato's: You thought it all through, so she did as well - she is highly intelligent, after all, so it is obvious that she MUST come to all those conclusions, thus, there is no reason to not write it down right now. That way you can also get to the parts you are eager to write about more quickly - so win win on all fronts.

It’s like you reached into my brain and pulled my own thoughts out! *scream*

Glad you liked Chapter 9, and that the proper beginning of the sibling relationship evokes the right blend of emotions. I was kind of surprised — after being so demoralized by the previous chapter, I didn’t expect Ch.9 to “flow forth” so easily.


Thanks for all of the comments and suggestions — I’ll be referencing them a lot when I go back and tweak these chapters. :thumbsup:

On account of Misato being a total pain in the ass, the next chapter is a real challenge as well. Kaworu is probably thinking, “I knew I should have made my overture to that mini-Akira — not me, the other one — that’s been walking around… It would have been so much easier than this!” (Here I accidentally stumble across “the real reason” Kaworu didn’t bother with Misato in canon: there was nowhere near enough screen time to persuade her stubborn, self-righteous butt of anything. Well, okay, he probably could have convinced her to fuck him, but that also wouldn’t go over well on broadcast TV.)

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:32 pm

Thanks, your appreciation is much appreciated! ^^

Chapters 7-9  SPOILER: Show
Interesting stuff on “the well-intended lesson”. I shall have to contemplate this…

I'd very much like to hear your conclusions. As convoluted as my thought processes are (giving the long winded explanation before reaching the far easier conclusion only in the edit), I'd like to know if they make any sense at all.

It’s like you reached into my brain and pulled my own thoughts out! *scream*

Uncannily-similar-thought-process-syndrome strikes again! ^_^


Chapter 10  SPOILER: Show
Her stabbing a razor blade into Daddy’s “stupid pretty face” — that’s a real memory

And now I am even more intrigued - either this is her defiling a picture of him or ... hm ... I should finish reading Crying Man. Maybe there will be hints.

The original show is rather frustrating about this “inevitability” thing and makes it a point that just has to be taken for granted

Given that the only people talking about it being inevitable get their information directly from SEELE, a cult actively trying to do anything in its power to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, it is even less likely that it can be taken to mean exactly what it says, leaving only the abstract possibility that you described. It works better that way, anyways. Humanity is the 18th angel. The angels will destroy humanity. Ergo, humanity has to be destroyed so that humanity can not destroy humanity.

for Misato to interpret it lewdly,

Yeah, I read that from her point of view, because:

He even manages to make nausea seem delicate and beautiful.

he is so beautiful and delicate that it's nauseating ... sorry, too good of an opportunity^^ I kinda wish that you go completely overboard with that in later chapters, just to hammer home how otherworldy he is - short of making him actually sparkle. And now I have visions of Kaworu sitting against a tree, with a rainbow above, feeding rabbits and deer, while a flushed Misato shyly hands him a present adorned with a large, red ribbon (which turns out to be a special can of beer) while Shinji stands aghast in the distance ... Right, I'll show myself out :facepalm:


He he he, good thing that he is not on broadcast TV anymore. :nyao:
I hope that the chapter doesn't give you too much trouble. I never gave any thought to what would persuade Misato. Thankfully, I don't have to :D I dread the mere thought of trying to get her to help an angel, with her past. I guess Kaworu should be very lucky that her feelings for her father are ... complex, which could be a boon or a burden. I wonder how his feelings will change about all this as the story progresses. Speaking of, do you have a rough estimate of the overall length you are going for?

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23653
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Watching the world burn
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:26 am

This chapter was a pain in the ass and I don't like the results right now but I might appreciate them more later, I dunno.

Ch.11: Eros

As far as overall length goes... I am super not good at predicting this sort of thing. I seem to have a terrible habit of underestimating how long I'll take to cover a given part of a plot outline, on account of overwriting and uneconomical storytelling and such. First Draft Anxieties -- fearing that something might be left out, and overcompensating by writing far too much, stuff like that.

I have a rough idea of how the overall story will pan out. Some parts are a bit vague and could evolve in strange ways I'm not anticipating at the moment. Only time will tell.

Derantor
Embryo
Posts: 46
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Father Brother Lover Mother [Canon Divergence / MisaKawo]

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:40 am

Hah! I was right with the chapter name. Let's dig in!

Chapter 11  SPOILER: Show
Honestly, I got no clue why you are unhappy with this chapter. I've only read it only once, so maybe with more scrutiny I will manage to convince myself that it sucks, but ... dunno, time will tell. Edit: I already went into it thinking "Ok, this sucks", which normally is enough to make me notice all the mistakes and incongruities, but I didn't find what would have confirmed my bias, so ...

In the first part gets things heated, and the relevation that Kaworu can only survive for about three days is genious, plotwise. It alludes to Rei's failng body in EoE, and it gives the whole situation a sense of urgency, making Misato more likely to do something rash - which she promply acknowledges herself. Kaworu still gives off this unearthly sense of ... attraction, in the most general term, while his vulnerability must only make him MORE appealing to Misato, mixing feelings of sexual attraction with her motherly instincts, so ... Still, it isn't clear if he is not somehow manipulating her at all times, making this a rather tense moment as well.

The next part, where Kaworu explains the inevitability of Third Impact, the effects of Second Impact, being responsible for the declining birthrate - I never thought about something like that, but it is so obvious! It also is exactly the kind of argument which WOULD work on Misato. Great idea overall. The mention of the self-fulfilling prophecy - I thought of that myself, so naturally, it MUST be a great idea! All joking aside, it is the natural thing to assume here from his point of view. /(Totally inappropriate reaction: When Adam Kadmon is mentioned for the first time, I had to laugh out loud as I pictured the fan-fic author, towering over the earth, scrolls and parchments containing his weird stories flowing forth from his hands ...) Your take on the whole Angel/Seed affair is amazing: From the mention of colony worlds to the comparison to the universe itself, to Kaworus surprise at his own words, it just feels enormous, ancient and important. A thing not truly graspable by mere human imagination. Misato's doubts finally taking over is also natural, it feels right for her to not just believe his fairy tails and sweet promises. His relevation at the end is an explanation, somewhat, but I don't exactly see how that explains anything from Misato's PoV - but I guess I'll find out in the next chapter.

Allright, going over the authors notes: Didn't feel disoriented once. True, some things are not explained, but they don't really matter right then and there, the thought "Weight, aren't you forgetting something?" never crossed my mind. You explained it yourself already; your brain is unsure of itself.

Same goes for efficiency; There wasn't anything here that felt unnecessary. Making it shorter would only let you run into the problem of making it sound like you were rushing things, as it felt in the beginning of chapter 8, iirc. It is natural for Kaworu to get a bit a bit lost in his own pathos, bloating his speech - which never felt that bloated to begin with. Persuasion is most effective if the person being persuaded is slowly led to where you want them, so ... hm.

Ovaries and bad places: Again, I think your brain is confusing itself more than you are confusing me as a reader. The irrational nature of the unconcious makes it only natural for those things to pop up at random times, but they never felt random while reading in the first place. Yeah, it is a little unusual that the touch of his thumb makes her melt, but on the other hand, given Misato's obsessions ... Kaworu suddenly turning moody didn't feel out of place for me either, but maybe I misunderstand what you are concerned about or straight up missed something.

Psychosystem: Hm, yeah, it sounds a little too much as if it was concerned with the mind or rational thought, not the soul as a whole, the way it is used in Eva ... I'll edit in a suggestion if I happen to stumble upon anything. Edit: What about, instead of an analogy to ecosystem, you use the biosphere -> psychosphere transformation?

I just can't get over Adam Kadmon ... instead of an angel, I imagine a giant, unwashed, drooling neckbeard in place of GNR, in a similar scene. This mental image will NEVER leave me, I fear (No offense, Adam Kadmon - I've got nothing against you personally, I even like some of your stories! I am just an asshole from time to time). I started watching Ideon, but so far I only see the parallel that one group doesn't know the Ide at all, while the other sees it as the Giant of Legend, the Destroyer.

Things I noticed as somewhat sticking out.

The "electricity resurfacing" is the kind of suggestive metaphor I like. I mean, there were many things that I liked, but this one stuck out for some reason.

"And also vaguely sexual." Might be a little too direct, given her reluctance to accept those feelings. Maybe something like "arousing", or so?

So ... uhm ... while running the danger of sounding like I just want to please you, I honestly don't know why you are so unsure about this chapter. Maybe you could point to more specific stuff, as right now, I don't see exactly where your frustration originates from. This chapter was the most "thrilling" so far (not sure why I put that in quotes - I guess to hint at the fact that the rest wasn't exactly boring either, but that this is another kind of thrill?), as finally, Kaworu's plan is revealed, the cards are on the table - or are they? He could still be lying ... Things get exciting plotwise!


Interesting, so a kind of mixed Architect/Gardener approach to writing? I wouldn't mind a few hundred thousand words, but I get the need to be concise and to the point. You definitely have enough material to keep writing for a long time, and I am eager to find out how all the things hinted at will play out.


Return to “Fanfiction”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests