Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Zoop » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:11 am

Weird?
I think most people thought that Ep VII was "ok", but hated on VIII and IX.
I dont hear much praise about VIII, personally i think its the least one of the three.
Unneccesary casino scene and characters (like the codebreaker, i like Benicio Del Toro, sad to see that he also got a shit role written for him).
The lightspeed ram that looked cool but breaks so much established mechanics was a point of a lot of hate.
Bringing back Phasma, only to give her a very unsatisfying death.
etc.

So "It's so weird that I just can't get into Episode VIII like everyone else", afaik "everyone else" hated it.
IX was setup to be doomed to fail.

Though you are right, it had some good action in it and gorgeous locales.
But that's about it tho. Run of the mill scifi action movie.

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Postby MuscleRobo » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:06 am

Oh yeah, the light speed ram! Which is funny because there were multiple times in other series ranging from comics, games and even the other movies where people would position their ships to block people from Hyperdriving. Didn't Darth Vader set up his ship to block that from happening at the end of Rouge One even? I guess a boulder with a hyper drive engine taped to it became the strongest weapon in Star Wars!

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:48 am

Zoop wrote:Weird?
I think most people thought that Ep VII was "ok", but hated on VIII and IX.


Like most discourse online, the "Everybody hated Episode VIII" narrative is one primarily driven by a small minority of angry dudebros online. People who congregate in the same online spaces - reddit, 4chan, twitter, etc - and are stuck in their own echo chambers and thus their opinions become fact. Then these echo chambers nowadays do things like flock to online rating boards - IMDB, Rottentomates - and upvote or downvote movies as a group for whatever petty reasons they have. It's a very small minority that loudly yells to make their voices heard and because of the internet if you see those voices again and again you start to think it's the way it is. It's basically what happens in politics - IE. 97% of scientists say climate change is real and a serious issue that needs to be addressed immediately. That other 3% though is given such amble television and print time by rightwing politicians and corporations to argue their pro-business/anti-change opinions to the contrary and because of this imbalanced representation of the issue about 50% of Americans are under the belief that scientists are NOT in agreement about climate change. They are. It's real. There's just a few kooks muddying up the water - only it's been transferred over to pop culture.

The majority of people who saw Episode VIII enjoyed it. Not everyone but certainly the majority.

If audiences don't like a movie you know. You'd have a case like Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice (another movie with a vocal online minority who try to sell the narrative about how the film is generally received) where the film opened to a remarkably massive $166 million domestic and then followed that up with a historic 81%+ drop off in attendance a week after release. In contrast, a similar movie that a large deal of critics say is awful and some echo chambers said the film WILL lead to mass casualties - Joker - has instead been embraced by audiences.

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Postby Zoop » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 am

I dont frequent those boards and i don't look at imdb/rottentomatoes/metacritic, as those scores rarely match my own opinion.
I've seen all three movies with same group of friends.

This is all anecdotal ofcourse, but general sentiment of vii, was that it was kinda unoriginal. Lots of redo of the previous movies, but in overall sets a nice premise for future installments.
During the break of viii i heard literally everyone complain about what a mess it was, what the use is of the casino scene. How they turned Luke skywalker into a hobo etc. At the end heard mixed opinions about lightspeed ram (called cool by those who didnt sw that well, everyone else bitched about it).
And xi was largely what was expected after viii.
I mainly heard complaints about how they downplayed the Death Star, by coming up with those star destroyers.

So no echo chambering here, i sincerely think viii ruined this new trilogy beyond hope.
But again, ofcourse, really anecdotal.

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:09 pm

Unneccesary casino scene and characters (like the codebreaker

They play into the themes of the movie, and Canto Bight sets up the ending with the "nobody"-child that has the Force.

At the end heard mixed opinions about lightspeed ram (called cool by those who didnt sw that well, everyone else bitched about it).

I'm a pretty hardcore Star Wars nerd and think that svene was cool as shit.
I see the action in Star Wars as agrandized versions of the character drama happening, not something that has to follow very strict rules.

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While I think the same as you regarding the reception of VIII, I have to wonder why Disney/LF/Abrams felt the need to cater to those VIII contrarians.
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Postby robersora » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:22 pm

^
I haven't seen much Star Wars, as mentioned, so my knowledge is kinda low, but what is the problem with the Star Ramp?
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:50 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I have to wonder why Disney/LF/Abrams felt the need to cater to those VIII contrarians.

The general audience are not 1:1 Star Wars fans. I've seen Marvel movies in theaters, but that doesn't make me a Marvel fan. The general audience is gonna applaud whatever Disney threw on that screen, JJ & Disney backpedaled because they started to figure out that not only would the general audience give them the same positive reception they always do but that constantly attacking and vilifying actual Star Wars fans is pointless so might as well try and appease them at the same time.

Unfortunately IMO it didn't save the movie and still turned out a jumbled mess. Maybe if they actually planned this trilogy from the start the entire fiasco over the perception of these movies could have been avoided.
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Postby Zoop » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:44 am

View Original Postrobersora wrote:^
I haven't seen much Star Wars, as mentioned, so my knowledge is kinda low, but what is the problem with the Star Ramp?


In viii a rebel ship makes a hyperspace jump into the badguy's flagship, severely damaging it.
It looks really cool, but it simply breaks what was established before.
If this is an option? Then why was the Death Star such a problem? Just throw a rock at lightspeed at it, and be done with it.
In vii they even showed that you can move through shields using hyperspace.

So this kinda makes ep vi useless, the endor shield, elaborate destraction and the rebel fleet attacking it etc.
Turns out you could have just thrown something at lightspeed at it ...
Even tho in previous movies it was established you can deny someone lightspeed travel by blocking it's path.
Han mentions in ep4 how they need to calculate their path carefully, or they might end up inside a star.
If it really works like it does in vii, people would have wrecked a lot of stars/planets in this manner.

In ix it is mentioned again "can't we pull another holdo" (holdo being the person that sacrificed herself to ram the ship), and it's dismissed as "nah, that was a one in a million shot, won't work again" .... ok .. I guess they wanted to respond to all the hate it has gotten? "yesh, its very difficult, hurdur". Kinda cheap imo.

@kuribo-04
And how much did they end up doing in the movies with that? Another idea being dropped for the next movie. So again, completely unneccesary. Seriously felt like filler to me (which is a shame, since all the movies feel kinda rushed).

The lightspeed ram, in my experience, it was all people talked about after the movie. "Looked so cool, but it is so hella dumb" being the general consensus among my friends.

The drama in starwars never actually interested me much. I'm much more interested in the mechanics and worldbuilding. Because, imo, the story being told on the foreground has always been kind of weak (including 4, 5 and 6). Especially since tons of merchandise came out, detailing how technology works, schematics, those popup books with cross sections of at-at walkers etc. And ofcourse the tons of games / comics / books it spawned.
Disney killed all that when they made the EU non-canon. And hammered in a few more coffin nails with this lightspeed ram crap. Like they are saying, we really dont care anymore how it is supposed to work, as long as it looks fancy on the big screen.
Consistency means a great deal to me in fiction. If they can't be consistent, then what's the use of expanding this universe as far as they are? Just make standalone movies then, or something. But ofcourse the Starwars name simply sells better. So in the end its all just about money. Ofcourse it always is, but its such a shame when that becomes so painfully clear.

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Postby robersora » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:08 am

Ok, thank you for that explanation.
In the same vein, I remember, when watching Episode 7, I was really bewildered, that they kind of refitted a planet into being another Death Star in the immediate neighborhood of planets that are populated, yet nobody noticed it?
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Postby MuscleRobo » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:41 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:They play into the themes of the movie, and Canto Bight sets up the ending with the "nobody"-child that has the Force.



Why did Rose have to teach Finn war is bad though? If you really needed that scene why was it taught to a child soldier? Maybe put Poe in Finn's place

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:49 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Maybe if they actually planned this trilogy from the start the entire fiasco over the perception of these movies could have been avoided.

Some planning definitely would have helped.
Though a good writer could have done episode IX well.

Why did Rose have to teach Finn war is bad though?

That's not what happens.
Finn is impressed by the city and Rose tells him "No, actually this is what is behind the money here". As a child soldier I doubt he never set foot in that type of city.

The drama in starwars never actually interested me much. I'm much more interested in the mechanics and worldbuilding.

I respect that that is what you like about Star Wars.
I personally don't see it as that type of story, and think it's ok for worlds to not be realistic.
I don't know what's dumb about it either. It's a crazy idea Holdo has that luckily works.
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Postby silvermoonlight » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:50 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNyk77f9tDg&ab_channel=WhatCulture

Regarding the original script Duel Of The Fates which sounds way better than the rise of skywalker and I think with some polish could have been a way better movie than JJ's. Mostly because it's message is clear that Rei is still a noboby who became somebody and Kylo gets no redemption ark but it also completes Finn storm trooper ark giving full clousuer.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:28 am

^ I heard about that a couple of days ago. I still need to see that video, but I’ve spent what little free time I have tracking down the actual script to read for myself, so....

I’ve read some of the videos claims in bullet point form, and there’s some interesting stuff in there. I’d still hesitate to think of Treverrow as a good writer given Jurassic World and The Book of Henry, but he’s probably better than J.J.

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Postby silvermoonlight » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:38 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:^ I heard about that a couple of days ago. I still need to see that video, but I’ve spent what little free time I have tracking down the actual script to read for myself, so....

I’ve read some of the videos claims in bullet point form, and there’s some interesting stuff in there. I’d still hesitate to think of Treverrow as a good writer given Jurassic World and The Book of Henry, but he’s probably better than J.J.


Yeah that's my only beef with it as I didn't like Treverrow's Jurrasic Worlds movies and his writing of women in my view is genuinely poor though fallen kingdom did do a slightly better job, but that's not saying much as he leans heavily on lazy outdated 90's stereotypes which could have hurt the SW franchise, even more. I just genuinely wish JJ had not just tossed his script out though and had gone with it and given it way more polish and just changed segments because the feel of it, feels much more like tying all ends together to give a more fulfilling ending and it's ending for Leia would have been much fitting.
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:33 pm

Surprising that it seems like there's a lack of discussion about The Mandalorian in this thread, but maybe I just missed it. I think it's easily the best Star Wars-affiliated content to come out during my lifetime and was a refreshing watch after the clusterfuck that was TRoS. I love how different it felt, how little it references events in the Skywalker Saga, the world-building it does, and how it's more moderately paced.

The Sequel Trilogy will go down in film history as being something that showed a lot of promise towards the beginning, but ended up being a disappointment. You'd think that for a series of films as elite in status as Star Wars, that they would have done the due diligence to make sure that these films were planned out as much as they could have been, with each film in the series being outlined at the beginning of this whole endeavor back in 2012-13 with a set creative team, so the finished trilogy would feel like a uniform tale, rather than the disjointed final product that it ended up being. Rian Johnson's vision of Star Wars being markedly different than Abrams', and it feels like each successive sequel is deliberately undermining the previous director's efforts.

I think that the short 2-year release cycle and saturating the market with tangential SW films also didn't help matters.
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Postby EvangelionFan » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:01 am

I agree about The Mandalorian. It gets a great deal right about itself - for a lone ranger / gunslinger style show it's got a great sense of landscape in the first few episodes, its core character struggles with an internal conflict that sets off the central drama of the series, the supporting characters come with their own conflicts and motivations that at times complement or contrast to the personality and goals of the core character, it's appropriately paced throughout most of the series, and almost all of the dramatic questions - little or large - are followed through on and resolved satisfactorily. It's a solid series. It does suffer a little in the middle for two episodes in stories that depart from the core plot for a pair of isolated capers which, though markedly less interesting, at least further develop the core character and also the personality of The Child (who I am sure many of you now know, is one small creature that has become one not-so-small part of the success of the series).

I'd also argue that between The Mandalorian and the video game Jedi: Fallen Order - which is also a quite good Star Wars story - we're actually in one of the better moments of the Star Wars brand. In both works we have stories that are simple but well told, are several steps away from the over-saturated Skywalker family story-lines, and are carefully situated in a universe which is already well-fleshed out, whilst adding believable set pieces and characters of their own.

I have no idea if other areas of the new EU - namely the novels and the comics - have been offering a similar level of quality in the past two years as I honestly haven't picked up a Star Wars novel since reading Star Wars: Death Star (by Michael Reaves & Steve Perry) almost a decade ago ... but I mention all of this because it seems to me to have been more than twelve years since I actually enjoyed Star Wars as Star Wars. The sequel trilogy for sure wore the visual clothing of classic 'Star Wars', and though offered some striking visuals and dramatic moments, unfortunately, I found as that films, they not only did not offer solid character stories to go with that, at times they struggled to retain coherence. I'd say of the recent films, only Rogue One comes to mind as a fairly favourable complement to the classic Star Wars films, though that too is a rather rocky one in some regards.

The Mandalorian and Jedi: Fallen Order provide the quality of Star Wars storytelling that I enjoy, and which I actually want to see and/or play through again. I'd suggest one or both to anyone who has enjoyed the OT, and especially if they have been unsatisfied with the other trilogies.
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Postby Zoop » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:00 am

*Light spoilers, heavy spoilers in spoilertags*

Binged the Mandalorian last weekend.
So far I've enjoyed all new stuff from Star Wars, BUT the new trilogy.

Han Solo was a bit predictable, like they checked of a checklist for all the things we know about Han Solo to be included. Like how he got his last name, how he met chewie, how he got in trouble with the empire, doing the kesselrun (which i always figured was more of a race, but ok), how he met lando, how he got the falcon, and im sure i'm forgetting a few. Once you see that pattern it seems a bit weak, but in overal still very enjoyable
SPOILER: Show
Especially the inclusion of Darth Maul, i hope they'll still continue with that despite Han Solo kinda flopping


Rogue One, a bit messy with the constant switching of locales, but otherwise very good. I like this serious grim style a lot (with the forced humor toned down a lot) and a neat connection to episode 4. Quite unbelievable that it took this long to see that Darth Vader really is a damn creepy one-man-army (imo, this never conveyed well in older movies).

And now the Mandalorian. I enjoyed it a lot, also heaps more serious, interesting fleshed out characters.
The last episode got so much praise, tho I think it wasn't any more special than the rest.
SPOILER: Show
Actually the "boohoo i started to care about a droid which i normally hate with a passion" felt a bit disney-mushy, but ok

It kinda felt like playing an RPG (don't know yet if thats positive or not). Like, quest obtained, search for the baby. Subquest, get information about the camp and transportation. Quest completed, retrieved baby, return to ship. New quest, re-acquire ship parts, subquest, defeat a Mudhorn. Etc. This could translate to a game, very well.
Anyway, I liked the format a lot. In the middle it did start to feel a bit like a filler, especially the prisonbreak episode, I feel you could skip this one without missing anything. Same for helping poor locals fight off raiders (felt a bit a-team-ish), but at least that introduced an interesting character that became relevant later. Also the one with the bounty on the assassin, tho it kinda hints we havent seen the last of that yet, so maybe that becomes more relevant later.
I was sad when I finished the last episode, I wanted more. Which means this series did its job well.

A big contrast to the new Trilogy, which just makes me more angry the more I think about it.
These "addon" movies/series seem so much better, mainly because they have a consistent (albeit simple) story to tell. Whereas the Trilogy is all over the place, raises so much plotpoints that simply dont seem relevant at all.

I like it a lot more when they tell new stories in the already existing universe. Rather than trying to create a new one that comes after the current one. The whole deal with the First Order just seems weak to me. Episode 6 ended with a happy ending, the Empire is no more (and Mandalorian plays into that nicely). A few years later, it's back (?!?) under a new name. The Empire was created with masterful trickery by Sheev and having a badass enforcer (Vader). So how did the First Order get as big without all that? I don't think thats explained (enough) in the movies. So it's like the previous movies aren't relevant at all to this story (especially how they keep on power-creeping the Death Star).

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Postby movieartman » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:46 am

Watched Tros Wednesday night. Very Mixed feelings.

On one hand I was fine with Rian making Rey's parents nobodies (and felt that emotional exchange between him and rey was one of the best parts of tlj) but I also feel like her being a Palpatine worked fine and did explain her power.

On one hand I did want Ben to stay as the big bad of this final film and felt that was something Rian set up right but on the other Ian McDiarmid was fantastic here, pure menace, none of the cheesier flavor of his character from Rots. I am fine with him force lightning entire fleets because thousands of Sith spirits were powering him and I personally like when some of the more fantasy/mystical style elements of this universe show up.

I can't think of a film with this many glaring conveniences thrown in, one after another.

Film did 3 notable things I had been hoping for...
(1) Finn & Poe had plenty to do.
(2) Rey, Finn & Poe spent the majority of the film together as a team & had fun interaction.
(3) The sheer spectacle of the film was much bigger and more epic then tlj with it's absurd slug crawl space chase.

The acting of the entire cast continues to be damn good which is something that will always stand out as notably superior to the prequels.

It's really weird comparing what they chose to double down on vs what they went to insane lengths to "fix".
Like them going out of their way to point out Rose isn't going to be part of the main action was weird. Letting her stay with Leia so the main events don't get overcrowded is acceptable but them pointing it out seems almost sleazy level of pandering.
In contrast they double down hard on Rey's level of power with her again mind swaying Stormtroopers which was the most egregious example of her overpowered-ness in Tfa by far for me.
That being said the scene of her power almost being a detriment rather then a positive with Chewbacca's fake death was well done.

Hux being the spy was fucking absurd, I get him being petty against Kylo but him choosing that over the First Order's mission which I remind you he killed billions of people for in Tfa is just retarded and the scenes of it feel profoundly silly and out of tonal place with the rest of the film.

The force healing is straining but for me the teleporting objects across space with the force was notably more WTF for me.

I previously did not want Kylo to be redeemed but I found the execution of it to be acceptably well done. Feeling his mother dying and his would be killer choosing to heal him all in rapid succession seems like a pretty big wake up call.

Not sure how I feel about how Leia's death was handled.

I actually liked the final scene a lot. Her taking the Skywalker name seems less objectionable with Leia and Luke in the distance kinda giving their blessing (I am glad luke was there as I was afraid the implication from him appearing to rey on the island was that his force ghost was stuck there), Rey sliding down the sand like a kid was cute. The scene had a strong comforting sense of peaceful but sad closure to it that had stuck with me since seeing the film.

I think Rise has more numerous flaws then The Last Jedi but TLJ's were more offensive and Rise emotionally has more good moments and overall feel.
I barely ever go to see movies in theaters and I never go see a movie twice (single time I can remember doing so was with the dark knight which was and remains among my top 2 favorite movies) but I am considering going to see this again just to examine it further and enjoy what I did again.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I mean, really sit down and think about it. Anakin is born, prophesied as being the one to bring balance to the Force, which he does by defeating the Sith in Ep 6. Now regardless of whether or not the big bad Sith Lord in the sequels was gonna be Palpatine or Snoke, the fact that there is ANY big bad Sith Lord to begin with complicates the legitimacy of the prophesy and Anakin’s agency in both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy.

This prophecy is something I have never quite understood. The Old Republic & the Jedi had been in power for a thousand uninterrupted years so wouldn't balance being brought to the force entail a period of the bad guys ruling? (which anakin did bring about) What exactly did the Jedi think it meant?

View Original PostGazdakka Gizbang wrote:but it would have been more consistent and Luke would have lived - possibly without getting humiliated - and I consider that the better choice.

If we had other directions to pursue post RotJ, my choice would have been based around Thrawn.

Seconding both of these.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:This may be a bit of a hot take, but Episode II is actually my favorite out of the prequels

This used to be the case for me as I love Jango and Dooku but upon further reflection I think Phantom Menace is the most decent of the Prequel trilogy (liam elevates the film in a way none of the cast in 2 or 3 were able to do, the actual sets and props are vastly better then the massive overuse of weak cgi for entire rooms & such in the following films and makes this look and feel vastly more authentic, good space battle, phenomenal final duel & score, I actually like the political scenes, good opening on the trade federation ship)

View Original PostGazdakka Gizbang wrote:Unfortunately with the popularity of Star Wars and the huge amount of money spent purchasing Lucasfilms, we're going to have more trilogies churning out in the future.

Yeah this is a big concern for me. They need to just do more one off films or 2 parters at most.
I would really like in say 5 years do a 1 off epilogue movie to the current trilogy showing Rey, Poe and Finn settling into life without war. Don't give the film any notable villain or apocalyptic threat. Show them having fun and going around helping out random places around the galaxy or something.

View Original PostEvangelionFan wrote:I have no idea if other areas of the new EU - namely the novels and the comics - have been offering a similar level of quality in the past two years as I honestly haven't picked up a Star Wars novel since reading Star Wars: Death Star (by Michael Reaves & Steve Perry) almost a decade ago.

The recent Tarkin novel was solid and the Marvel Darth Vader comics are decent to good despite the first run having poor overly traced art.

The Phasma and Shattered Empire mini series were both good with great art by Marco Checchetto.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:22 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:This prophecy is something I have never quite understood. The Old Republic & the Jedi had been in power for a thousand uninterrupted years so wouldn't balance being brought to the force entail a period of the bad guys ruling? (which anakin did bring about) What exactly did the Jedi think it meant?

I'm not saying that it ever did make sense, I'm just saying that the Prophecy is something that the Jedi cared deeply about. So for none of the Jedi-aligned characters in the sequels to not even address it seems like a missed opportunity to raise the peril for the characters even more. Like, it could have easily been a source of mystery in TFA, the reason for Luke's darker antics and depression in TLJ, and a point of contention in TROS, while also fitting into the SW universe that preceded it.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Zoop » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:39 pm

Thats my sentiment exactly, and not just with the prophecy.
I have this a lot more with the Death Star.
Especially since Rogue One.

The Death Star was supposed to be the ultimate weapon, ensuring the Empire's rule. It played a part in the prequels too, how Dooku had to secure the plans and bring em to Sheev. Then the elaborate deception to build in a weakness and letting the rebels know about it so it could be used to finally destroy it in Ep4. After it being destroyed, but the Empire not being defeated, it makes sense they would try to build it again, this time with more protection (the endor shield) during construction. Rogue One reveals that it requires a buttload of kyber crystals, explaining that the weapon is pretty much a big ass light saber.

TFA kinda shits on that. The Empire is supposed to be gone, but yet, here is the First Order, and they managed to build an even more ridiculous superweapon, without anyone noticing? What was the new republic doing all this time? And then they manage to make an entire fleet of star destroyers with the same level of power?
When they try to reach Alderaan in Ep4 and its destroyed, Han even says that even an entre fleet couldnt do something like that... Well Han, you were wrong.

So aside from the prophecy they seemed to have forgotten all about, all this totally undermines the threat the Death Star posed, like they completely ignore the previous movies, just for the sake of pretty special effects.
To me theres too much a disconnect between the new Trilogy and all the rest.


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