Every Angel in 2.0 is a combination of two NGE-Angels

Velorex · Postby **Velorex** » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:07 am

I noticed that all the Angels in Rebuild film 2.0 had combined abilities and appearances to NGE counter parts.
Rebuild 2.0 covers 13/26 episodes of NGE involving 8 Angels. I believe Anno combined the Angels to save time.

The 3rd Angel is a combination of Gaghiel and Matarael.

The top half of 3rd looks like the skeleton of Gaghiel with a skull and mask and core in mouth

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Both 3rd and Gaghiel are located in the middle of the Ocean.

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The bottom half resembles Matarael 4-insect like legs, and just like Matarael; the 3rd creates a tunnel.

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The 8th Angel is a combination of Sahaquiel and Leliel.

When first seen, the 8th looks like a black sphere: primarily black in coloration with white-eyes. This is a clear lift to Leliel's image and the ability of distorting space.

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The 8th unfolds into what clearly resembles Sahaquiel; having its bomb-like ability. It retains the striped pattern of Leliel but with a multi coloration resembling Sahaquiel multi color-scheme.

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Also when both 8th and Leliel are defeted; they both turn black

The 9th Angel is a combination of Bardiel and Arael.

The 9th clearly is a copy of Bardiel that has infected Eva-03. However unlike in NGE; the 8th affects Asuka instead of Toji as we all know.

In a scraped scene from the CRC it is shown that Asuka converse with what is assumed to be 9th. During this segment 9th is talking about Asuka's psychology.

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9th affects and reads Asuka mind just as Arael did.

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I know that this scene was omitted, however at a minimum the 9th hurts Asuka directly just as Arael does. (Physically yes but definitely psychologically.)

The 10th Angel is a combination of Zeruel and Armisael .

The 7th Angel is a combination of Israfel and Sandalphon. Hear me out with this one.

Just as how the prior 3 Angels in NTE are combos of two NGE Angels; the 7th angel represents the two Angels that Asuka fought against in NGE; in what was generally considered as the "camp" episodes.

I believe Anno combined NGE-Angels in order to streamline 2.0's runtime; thus he combined the two instances of Asuka defeating an Angel into a single event event with a throwaway angel fight.
The design of 7th lifts Israel's yin-yang face in early concept artwork. the tri-digits of Israel's appendages probably inspired the 3-point geometry seen with 7th.

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Both 7th and Israel were dispatched by an Free fall-drop-kick and both were killed within a minute and couple of seconds.

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Sandalphon is the only angel Asuka got a solo kill in NGE. the only thing resembling Sandalphon with 7th is its goofy eyes; only thing that might be similar is Sandalphon long arms compared to 7th's long legs.

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Sandalphon's scenario involving Asuka in a hostile environment, then saved by 01; is used in Rebuild 3.0's Opening space sequence.

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.............................................................
Combined pics

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At this point every angel in NGE has been shown/reused by 3.0.
NTE has a total of 13 Angles.

The only odd thing is the missing 11th Angel that was skipped between 2.0 and 3.0.

What the hell that is idk

Sgt. Griff · Postby **Sgt. Griff** » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:46 pm

Interesting thoughts. Why do you feel the need to make the tenuous link between NTE!Zeruel and Armisael, given that Armisael has a clear analog in the 12th angel? Moreover, what do you say to Reichu's proposition that the 8th is a combination of Sahaquiel and Israfel? This leaves the issue of Leliel, but perhaps that can be addressed with NTE!Zeruel who, similar to Leliel, engulfs an evangelion.

I will admit that a few weeks ago I thought of the NTE angels as simple redesigns of the original (looking at you 1.0), but stuff like this has given me reason to think. It may be that if we ever get a list of names for the angels they'll end up being different from NGE.

Velorex · Postby **Velorex** » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:18 pm

Sgt. Griff wrote:Interesting thoughts. Why do you feel the need to make the tenuous link between NTE!Zeruel and Armisael, given that Armisael has a clear analog in the 12th angel? Moreover, what do you say to Reichu's proposition that the 8th is a combination of Sahaquiel and Israfel? This leaves the issue of Leliel, but perhaps that can be addressed with NTE!Zeruel who, similar to Leliel, engulfs an evangelion.

I need to finish the Zeruel and Armisael section, I uploaded an old draft, Armisael is the angel that killed Rei(to be precise Rei blew up 00 via suicide) it also was a cut scene from 2.0; seen in CRC. Also Armisael was the angel that morphed unit00 in NGE like how 8th did.

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10th-New-Zerul's trait of absorbing an Eva and changing itself with its traits is a new power. The power that Armisael had in NGE; and began merging with Eva-00

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The 12 angel is just Ireul that has continued to evolve. its described as a microscopic virus-swarm, Both it and the 12th corrupt and Eva-tech. the test Eva and unit06.

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think of a primitive life form evolving into a large swarm.

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Makes me wonder if Seele had Eva06 as an angel-Eva; An angel that was converted into an eva unit.... Kinda similar to 3rd with its mini-entry-plug. Perhaps Seele was trying to "tame/control an Angel" (technically that's what they did with Kaworu in NGE; an angel on their terms, Why would they just stop with him if they had their hands on another angel.) Ooooo..... what if Eva06 is Seele's trojan horse under Seele's control that was set loose to merge with Lilith...
Iruel was kinda computer-virus Perhaps Seele controlled it as 12th inorder to create an impact; just like they did with Kaworu in NGE.

NGE: Angel Kaworu and Eva02 decend to Lilith
NTE: Angel 12 and Eva06 decend to Lilith
Eva06 pilot was the angel

I dont see the Israfel connection with Sahaquiel, Leliel is clearly the one related to 8th with its first-form's appearance and ability to warp space; "spatial distortions" Also when both 8th and Leliel are defeted; they both turn black

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Also i made a topic discussing the angels in the rebuilds on my Religious iconography topic. I believe Anno based the Rebuild's Angel system on (Bible)Daniel7 with the 4-beast dream. daniel's dream 4 beasts that will bring the Apocalypse, three are caste down, 4th had 10 horns and an 11th appeared(smaller than the rest in human form)- they represent the 10 kings that will lay waste to earth.
10 horns +1 humanoid
10 angels(3-12) + kaworu

YouTube · Postby **Reichu** » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:45 am

The 8th Angel has hundreds of tiny Israfels lining its body, and the trumpeting angels around the main section are a reference to Israfel's namesake as well. Mahiro Maeda, who designed most of the 8th Angel, was also the original designer of Israfel. As "Angel hybridizations" go, this is really one of the most blatant ones.

Velorex · Postby **Velorex** » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:20 am

Reichu wrote:The 8th Angel has hundreds of tiny Israfels lining its body, and the trumpeting angels around the main section are a reference to Israfel's namesake as well. Mahiro Maeda, who designed most of the 8th Angel, was also the original designer of Israfel. As "Angel hybridizations" go, this is really one of the most blatant ones.

I know of Mahiro Maeda CG work on animatrix; mind posting a source on who made various NGE angels please.

I'd say the black and white sphere is blatant. The white offset is just Sahaquiels' main eye. its also on the humanoid wings.

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I do see the similarities to Israfel's likeness. 8th has aspects of the three of them. listen; the title of this topic is an over-generalization, I believe that aspects of all NGE Angels have been included in these rebuild films;

case in point Sandalphon magma diver/3.0 opening battle. and 7th has its odd eyes and it's Asuka's solo kill.
But when it comes to Israfel the way it and 7th were dispatched was the same. hell even 8th, but the Israfel character dynamic was retooled into 3.0's piano/eva13 sequences

like Anno and co just haphazardly just spliced these things together without any care its impact to the plot. (especially with how the angels interact with the characters) like the idea of mixing 2 angels into 1 is an interesting concept(that way they can compress 13-NGE episodes) but it was poorly executed, with the character's interaction to the encounter being downplayed/lessened.

Part 11
[We thought,] if we can’t make use of the genga, let’s completely change Asuka’s introductory scene. The design was put together by Shigeto Koyama-san and Daizen Komatsuda-kun Any info on these two?

Part 11
The design of the falling Angel was done entirely by Mahiro Maeda-san; the design of the humanoid that emerges from its center was done by [Takeshi] Honda-kun. the design of the Humanoid at center was done by Takeshi Honda.

eh... half of Israfel went to 7th and the other went to 8th... why not. Double play action :sachi_blush:

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They broke up and merged with different angels. it was a sad breakup

Blockio · Postby **Blockio** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:47 pm

Interesting read, but I feel like you're falling victim to confirmation bias for the 7th, the 8th and, to an extent, the 10th here.
Especially for the 7th, apart from a kinda generic pose and the fact that Asuka kills it, there isn't really much supporting the theory here, and I'd even go as far as saying that being so hell-bent on linking everything in NTE to something in NGE is not the way to go about the movies.
the Leliel part of the 8th is similar, the connection to Leliel feels too arbitrary, too accidental to really mean anything; especially since both of the center arguments (shape and turning black) both reference the shadow of Leliel instead of Leliel itself.

As for the 10th - while the connection to Armisael would definitely be there if the storyboards made it into the final product, just the shapeshifting and the fact that it's killing off Rei also seems like a bit too... arbitrary?

Velorex · Postby **Velorex** » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:45 pm

Blockio wrote:I'd even go as far as saying that being so hell-bent on linking everything in NTE to something in NGE is not the way to go about the movies.

There is nothing wrong with making comparisons between the two. What; we can't discuss possible inspirations for Khara's design choices? My thinking is that Anno did this as a Directorial choice. When it come to my comparisons, I'm arguing that basically Khara combined the angels for brevity sake. It's not confirmation bias; im comparing the angels from NGE to rebuilds with the context of the production of the Movie.

Blockio wrote:As for the 10th - while the connection to Armisael would definitely be there if the storyboards made it into the final product, just the shapeshifting and the fact that it's killing off Rei also seems like a bit too... arbitrary?

The connection between Armisael and Zeruel is sound. It's obvious that Khara had Armisael in mind with the 10th angel along with Zeruel.
Even though the scenes with the blatant-Armisael bit being cut from the film, Armisael elements was definitely utilized with the 10th angel. Khara definately had it in mind with earlier drafts; even though most was lost in the final product.

Blockio wrote:the Leliel part of the 8th is similar, the connection to Leliel feels too arbitrary, too accidental to really mean anything; especially since both of the center arguments (shape and turning black) both reference the shadow of Leliel instead of Leliel itself.

I said that both turn dark when killed, I never said anything about the shadow.
The 8th Angel is just has the visual aspect of Leliel with its alternating bands. I know that the spacial time element and its impact to Shinji is absent in 2.0. Again the Production aspect of the film.

Blockio wrote:the 7th, apart from a kinda generic pose and the fact that Asuka kills it, there isn't really much supporting the theory here

The 7th is definitely the weakest element in my comparisons. Truthfully the thing about it that made me think of Isfrael was the fact that 7th has two masks and the fact both fights took place at "Suruga Bay"

Blockio · Postby **Blockio** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:28 am

Velorex wrote:There is nothing wrong with making comparisons between the two. What; we can't discuss possible inspirations for Khara's design choices? My thinking is that Anno did this as a Directorial choice. When it come to my comparisons, I'm arguing that basically Khara combined the angels for brevity sake. It's not confirmation bias; im comparing the angels from NGE to rebuilds with the context of the production of the Movie.

You are missing my point. I'm not saying that we should never compare the two - of course we should, just that I believe going out and looking for a direct inspiration for everything new in NTE to something in the original show ignores the fact that it is a seperate thing from NGE and should be treated as such - trying to force a connection in absolutely everything in my opinion originates from the same mindset that the movies can't be their own thing that also gave birth to nonsense like the time loop theory and the perpetual hate on everything new the movies do.
I am not saying that parallels don't exist - of course they do - just that not every similarity has to have a meaning to it. (I hope I get my point across, I can't think of abetter wording for this)
For a more practical example of what I mean: Unit 02 is Q has a large, gray mechanical arm with combat features, but that doesn't mean that it's drawing inspiration from the Guren Mk 2 from code Geass, which is also red with a larger mechanical arm and came over half a decade before Q.

The connection between Armisael and Zeruel is sound. It's obvious that Khara had Armisael in mind with the 10th angel along with Zeruel.
Even though the scenes with the blatant-Armisael bit being cut from the film, Armisael elements was definitely utilized with the 10th angel. Khara definately had it in mind with earlier drafts; even though most was lost in the final product.

Okay, point taken.

I said that both turn dark when killed, I never said anything about the shadow.
The 8th Angel is just has the visual aspect of Leliel with its alternating bands. I know that the spacial time element and its impact to Shinji is absent in 2.0. Again the Production aspect of the film.

Turning black is a very common way of showing that something big has just powered down/died. It's just a trope that happened to also be used by Leliel. The parallels exist, but in my opinion, they are correlation rather than causation. A ball with a weird pattern (and not even one that remotely resembles the pattern on Leliel) and the death sequence are just too general, too arbitrary of a connection. If the 8th died by Unit 01 tearing it apart and emerging from the bloodshed like it did with Leliel, or if the angel tried invading Shinji's mind, I would agree - but just those two are not enough to convince me.
I'd rather go with Reichu's observation here, the tiny Israfels lining the wings, that'S a much more solid connection.

The 7th is definitely the weakest element in my comparisons. Truthfully the thing about it that made me think of Isfrael was the fact that 7th has two masks and the fact both fights took place at "Suruga Bay"

That's what I meant by confirmation bias. You saw a parallel in the others, and there is one that just doesn't fit, so you look for tiny details that may match somewhere. I'm not trying to make you look bad for doing this or anything, god knows I've fallen victim to that often enough myself, I just think that you're tunnel visioning here and have gotten a bit lost in the process. The 7th has always kinda been the weird one that didn't really fit, and I'm willing to leave it at just that: Something to show the people that NTE is a new thing and to prove that point, Anno based it on nothing that was present in NGE

Velorex · Postby **Velorex** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:14 pm

You are ignoring my premise that Anno combined the Angels to save time.

Blockio wrote:I believe going out and looking for a direct inspiration for everything new in NTE to something in the original show ignores the fact that it is a seperate thing from NGE and should be treated as such

With that logic; then these are not Angels Zeruel, Bardiel, or Sahaquiel.

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The fact is; is that NTE reuses elements from NGE Not in a sequel way but reusing elements of the show for its own. NTE is a successor to NGE; NOT as a sequel but as a Reboot. Basically It reuses the same shit and comparisons are justified.

Blockio wrote:trying to force a connection in absolutely everything in my opinion originates from the same mindset that the movies can't be their own thing that also gave birth to nonsense like the time loop theory and the perpetual hate on everything new the movies do.

Dont infer my comparisons as proof for some crazy loop theory that I have never mentioned in this topic.

Blockio wrote:It's just a trope that happened to also be used by Leliel. A ball with a weird pattern (and not even one that remotely resembles the pattern on Leliel) and the death sequence are just too general, too arbitrary of a connection. If the 8th died by Unit 01 tearing it apart and emerging from the bloodshed like it did with Leliel, or if the angel tried invading Shinji's mind, I would agree - but just those two are not enough to convince me.

Its a Troupe that both NGE and NTE use for the two. I dont care about examples in other Anime, but between NGE and NTE; Again, No other Angel in NGE turned dark when killed. The fact that the comparison is not enough for you is down to your opinion; but you admittedly see the parallels. Hell Reichu recognized some visual similarities between Leliel and Sahaquiel.

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Blockio wrote: I'd rather go with Reichu's observation here, the tiny Israfels lining the wings, that'S a much more solid connection.

and hell you're contradicting yourself, whether the "angel combo" is either Leliel or Israfel; both are visual references only. 8th does not divide into two identical angels that required synced-Pilots to defeat it.

If you are going by abilities the 8th is said in film to cause "spacial distortions" an ability that Leliel had.

Blockio wrote:That's what I meant by confirmation bias. You saw a parallel in the others, and there is one that just doesn't fit

Bull; you said

Blockio wrote:I feel like you're falling victim to confirmation bias for the 7th, the 8th and, to an extent, the 10th here.

Just because one of the Angels doesn't fit the framework given does not discredit the other examples.Just because an example doesn't fit; does not make the premise moot.

Blockio wrote:The 7th has always kinda been the weird one that didn't really fit.... Anno based it on nothing that was present in NGE

Other than the fact it's an angel with 2 Faces; the first attempt to kill it was a misinterpretation of anatomy with second attempt successful via a Free fall-drop-kick in the same location (Suruga Bay) that Israfel was first introduced.

You are ignoring my primary premise for the 7th...

Velorex wrote:the 7th angel represents the two Angels that Asuka fought against in NGE; in what was generally considered as the "camp" episodes.

The 7th battle is definitely Campy in execution. The overall look is secondary to my notion that the 7th battle essentially check-marks out the NGE camp angel fights.

YouTube · Postby **Reichu** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:59 am

Please stop omnislashing.

EvaGeeks Forum Guidelines wrote:Use quotes properly.
Stick to the main points. Don’t respond line-by-line to every little thing said (aka omnislashing).

Every Angel in 2.0 is a combination of two NGE-Angels

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