Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:15 am

@Gui - "Setameso", eh? That sounds like a fascinating find, I'm going to listen to both Ogata's and Takahashi's recordings as soon as I can. I'm busy as all hell right now so it's going to be some time before I get back to it. Does "Sera mesmo" translate into "is it really?" or anything similar in Portuguese? I agree that Takahashi is the person who knows best what is being sung. I've no idea if anyone from a Japanese-language fansite has interviewed her or come to their own interpretation of the lyrics.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:According to the January '96 issue of Newtype magazine, that part can be transcribed as「ファリィア。セタ(orセパ)メッソ。ファリィア。トゥスェ」 "Fariya. Seta (or sepa) messo. Fariya. Tuse."

Source: Reddit


Thanks, hodges, but I have my reasons for not taking this transcription or Newtype's interpretation at face value. In addition to not sounding like what is actually being sung, I disagree with their interpretation of it -

From earlier in this thread wrote:From what I've gathered, Newtype magazine, the source for the misheard lyrics - speculates that it's meant to represent words from the language of the Dead Sea Scrolls and is therefore just gibberish. I'm personally not a fan of this idea, because Anno and his crew were really pretty good with the Angel names and characteristics and generally tried their best with English and German (even if it didn't always work out). For them to ask the songwriters to throw in nonsense during the instrumental section seems hopelessly out of character for them, but I can imagine them asking the songwriters to sneak in something in a foreign language.
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:38 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Does "Sera mesmo" translate into "is it really?" or anything similar in Portuguese?


It means something on the line of "could it be?" or "is that so?". I guess that "is it really?" is a valid one too :)

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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:03 am

Hmm....since "Faria" does double-duty as "Would I do it?" and "Would he/she/it do it?", I'm going to give a crack at the lyrics. Given what imagery turns up during the lyrics, including Eva-01 and Yui's disappearance, I'm operating on the assumption that they're literally meant to be thoughts from Yui's perspective, translated to make them harder to access.

"Would I do it?"
"Is that so?"
"Would he/she do it?"
"I know"

Yui: "Would I dive into the core? Is that what could happen? Would [Gendo] take care of Shinji? I know he will, so I can go ahead." This is based off the contact experiment imagery. Of course, based on this interpretation, Yui might have reconsidered diving into Eva-01's core if she knew how bad a father Gendo turned out to be.

Alternatively -
"Would he/she do it?"
"Is that so?"
"Would I do it?"
"I know"

Yui: "Would Gendo really set off Second Impact with Adam? Is that what Seele's doing with Adam and Lilith? Would I dive into Eva-01's core? I know I must." Which would sort of make sense given the images that progress through the sequence, including those before the contact experiment.

These are both stretches, and I personally prefer the second interpretation as it would tie in with the images a lot better.
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:18 am

Language-wise, it's totally correct. I don't know, however, if we can trace parallels between the lyrics and the pĺot, specially in Yui's case: The composing team was not aware of the show's context, and the HIP plot was only developed by Anno and team latter in the show, so despite Yui, Seele and Kaworu's presence in the opening images, the details of the circumstances involving them probably weren't even written at that time. I think it would be safer to assume that the phrases were meant to refer to Shinji and his struggles, whatever they might be (a common trope on anime and something the composing team could refer to even not knowing the specifics).
Regarding the lyrics transcription and translation from portuguese, I'm really happy with the outcome and, with the videos of Yoko's live performance providing the basis for the lyric's reading, I fully support your proposal as a valid and credible one, @UrsusArctos!
I'll keep checking hebrew genesis to see if something worth of note appears, but the lyrics being "Faria? Será mesmo? Faria? Eu sei!" is the most compelling possibility by now. ^_^

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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:26 pm

@Gui - Thank you! ^_^ You've got a good point about the composing team, and I am rusty with my knowledge of NGE's production timeline so I don't know if they had the time to insert that kind of thing into the lengthened version of Cruel Angel's Thesis. Whoever's point of view it might be, if you think this sounds valid and compelling, I'm happy with it!
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:41 pm

Guys. This is, like, one of the biggest songs of this artist’s career, from one of the biggest IPs in the country. It always hits number 1 on karaoke machines. There has to be a more easily found Japanese source for what these lyrics say, possibly even from a karaoke machine, right?

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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby Berserkelion » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:23 am

Does someone have a scan from the "Newtype" 98/1[edit:January 1996] issue and the mysterious lyrics? Is "Newtype" magazine itself that gave the interpretation of "a foreign ancient language" or this is just personal speculation? This is the same issue in which Hideaki Anno talks about the ending and Misato, IINM.
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:40 pm

I believe the source was the January 1996 issue of Newtype, hence 96/01 and not 98/01. I've heard it reported that the speculation about the lyrics being in the secret ancient language of the Dead Sea Scrolls came from the same issue of Newtype, but since I don't have the scans I have no way of independently confirming this.

FFF4ever wrote:There has to be a more easily found Japanese source for what these lyrics say, possibly even from a karaoke machine, right?


Unfortunately, no. Takahashi, being the original performer, is one of the few who sticks to using those lyrics. Karaoke machines and the vast majority of cover versions simply use an instrumental section for the bridge, no lyrics.
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby JoelcrNeto » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:48 am

I come here from an article on the Wiki.

Even though I’m a native Portuguese speaker, I don’t see any relation to my language. I confess I also heard something like faria (inflection of the verb “fazer” in the 1st person singular of the future of the past tense of the indicative, 3rd person of the singular of the future of the past tense of the indicative), but I never related to Portuguese, I see only as a coincidence. If it were, I think all words would be more understandable.

As a Japanese student, what I can say this language has syllables very close to Portuguese (and others Romance languages), many of them have the same pronunciation, this increases the factor of coincidences. There are words in the Japanese vocabulary derived from Portuguese (historical issues already mentioned), for example, パン (pan, in Portuguese: “pão”) which means bread.

If the composer’s intention was to use Portuguese words, the pronunciation is horrible to the point that we don’t know what they’re talking about (except faria). And let’s face it, this assumption is hilarious:
Faria?
Será mesmo?
Faria?
Eu sei!

As if someone is doubting the someone else. :rofl:

However, I hear something like:
「ファリア セタメト(セタメソ) ファリア トゥセー」
faria setameto (setameso) faria tusē

As we know there are two vocal lines in this part of the song, while one sings “setameto”, I hear the other sings “setameso” instead.
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:53 am

View Original PostJoelcrNeto wrote:As if someone is doubting the someone else. :rofl:


Which may very likely be the intention, no?

Damn, it's a shame that I don't know Japanese, or I'd have emailed Takahashi herself to ask her what the lyrics were meant to be. That'd settle this question once and for all.
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby JoelcrNeto » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:40 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Which may very likely be the intention, no?

Honestly, I don’t know. For me it’s hilarious because it doesn’t make sense in the song context.

I’d like to ask a favor, could you correct a spelling mistake in the article? The word “Será” is given an acute accent in the letter A (´ + a = á).
I know it’s a kind silly detail, but it’s extremely important.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:27 pm

Faria does have more than one meaning in context, doesn't it? (Also, added the accent for "Será")
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby JoelcrNeto » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:13 pm

^
This is an intriguing point written on the Wiki that I didn’t get it:
[...] the lyrics may be "Faria? Será mesmo? Faria? Eu sei!" which is in the Portuguese language and could be interpreted in more than one way depending on the meaning of "Faria" in context.

“Faria” has only one meaning, it’s synonymous with “realizaria” (would accomplish), “construiria” (would build), “elaboraria” (would elaborate), “criaria” (would create). I translated the meaning of this word from a Portuguese dictionary:
  1. Develop something from a certain action; accomplish.
  2. Build or produce something by ordering its constituent elements: making bread, a building, a school etc.
Meaning in Portuguese  SPOILER: Show
1. Desenvolver algo a partir de uma certa ação; realizar.
2. Construir ou produzir algo através da ordenação de seus elementos constituintes: fazer pão, um prédio, uma escola etc.

In Portuguese-English dictionaries, the meaning of “faria” is always “[subject] would”, but I guess “[subject] would make” is suitable too.
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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:14 am

I edited the Wiki to say: " Since the word "Faria" is usually used in a similar way as the English word "would", those lines could be interpreted as someone doubting something or someone else." Do you consider this truthful?

Good job coming upon the connection to the Portuguese language, btw.

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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby JoelcrNeto » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:28 am

Zusuchan wrote:I edited the Wiki to say: " Since the word "Faria" is usually used in a similar way as the English word "would", those lines could be interpreted as someone doubting something or someone else." Do you consider this truthful?

Yes, that's exactly what I think. Thank you very much!

There are other Portuguese speakers here, it would be nice if they gave an opinion too. ^_^

I just want to reiterate that I don't think it's Portuguese words sung there. Especially in the "será mesmo" line, in Japanese, I would transcribe as『セーラメスモ』(sēra mesumo), the pronunciation sounds almost the same as in Portuguese.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:56 am

View Original PostJoelcrNeto wrote:I just want to reiterate that I don't think it's Portuguese words sung there. Especially in the "será mesmo" line, in Japanese, I would transcribe as『セーラメスモ』(sēra mesumo), the pronunciation sounds almost the same as in Portuguese.


The one thing that confuses me is that many Japanese dialects have a tendency to elide the "su" sounds into "s" sounds, like in "desu" becoming "dess", so I'm not sure if the "su" contracts to "s" in the middle of a word or is meant to be pronounced the way it is.

One of the videos I linked to earlier features Takahashi in a ridiculously goofy costume but focuses right on her mouth when she lip-synchs to that part. I couldn't tell if she was mouthing "sera meso" or "sera mesmo" because the rounding for the "o" sound makes it hard to say if she puts her lips together for the "m". It also doesn't help that the Japanese "r" sound is closer to a "t" in that it's only a slight trill or a tap, unless they're pronouncing it as an "l".
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:42 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:so I'm not sure if the "su" contracts to "s" in the middle of a word or is meant to be pronounced the way it is.
A pithy aphorism I encountered early on in my experiences with Japanese language was "Their vowels are delicious, and usually swallowed"; the subsequent impression I've received from just listening to anime is to confirm that, with the 'u' being especially vulnerable (given the way kana are used in transcribing English, like "スタート" on the old Windows "Start" menu button in Japanese locale). I suspect different individuals may elide differently, though, with it being a matter of little to no import.
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Postby JoelcrNeto » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:26 am

There is no exact rule that says a "su" must have a "complete" pronunciation or just an "s" sound. In the case of "mesumo", we can say there is a pronunciation of "s", because diction forces it.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:06 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:A pithy aphorism I encountered early on in my experiences with Japanese language was "Their vowels are delicious, and usually swallowed"


:lol: That aphorism is wonderful. Thanks, Tines!
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Re: Cruel Angel's Thesis - lyrics in instrumental section solved?

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:35 am

I've noticed that in a lot of syllabary writings systems there seems to be a designated "gap vowel" that gets written but not pronounced when there's supposed to be two consonants after each other.

In Japanese it's the u, in Hindi it's the short a. (particularly at the end of words, the a is almost always dropped.. )

It always surprised me that ppl transcribe them when transliterating it to latin letters, since it kind of defeats the purpose of latin letters (being able to tell how it's pronounced from looking at it), but of course language that use them by default are full of artifacts from pronunciation shifts or having to accommodate sounds that latin didn't have, so it's not like they're any more logical.

Not even the original Latin made sense, since having separate letters for G, J and U were later additions
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