Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Reichu » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:50 pm

[Posting in this subforum due to the potential for trailer content to come up.]

This is something that caught my attention recently and it’s been low-key preoccupying me ever since.

First, let me refresh everyone’s memory on this part from Eva 3.0, just so we’re all on the same page.

SPOILER: Show
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^ The 12th Angel, upon being exposed to Lilith’s LCL, starts transforming.

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^ Rei sits back in her seat as the lights in the cockpit go out and her screens are taken over by the Seele program.
(Note: I intentionally made the GIF hold extra long on the shot's first frame.)

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^ The 12th Angel finishes turning into a Lilith head.

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^ Rei, staring forward in appalled terror, starts questioning the nature of her existence.


Now, the way this scene is boarded, you’re obviously supposed to think that Rei is looking at and talking about the 12th Angel which has reshaped itself into a distorted effigy of herself. That makes sense, right?

What doesn’t make sense, though, is her saying this right after her cockpit is taken over! If you watch carefully, she starts off leaning forward and staring at the Angel to see what it turns into — and then, soon as the screens go dark, she sits back and her eyeline goes up, toward something else.

We’re never shown what’s on the screen directly in front of her following the takeover. (Possibly suspicious?) Later on, it seems quite evident that she can’t see outside of the cockpit; the Seele Program is similar to the dummy system in that regard. She reacts entirely to sound and impact. When she asks, “Who’s there?”, it’s after Eva-02 has tackled Mark.09 and caused the entire entry plug to shake.

If she can’t see outside, then that means the staging earlier was meant to deliberately trick us. When Rei says

What is this?
This is... me.
Then what am I?


She’s not talking about the Lilith head. (Though we in the audience are free to make that additional connection due to the extra information we have.) She’s talking about the Seele program!

Wait. Why on Lilith’s Red Earth would Rei say that a piece of malware is her?

I was pretty baffled by this until I remembered some dialogue that had been trimmed from 3.0 at the storyboard stage. (Translation by Numbers-kun.)

FUYUTSUKI:
The clone that brought you here was the Ayanami type experimental prototype number six, prepared as the provisional pilot of Mark.09. As Yui-kun's information has not been transferred to it, it seems not to interest Ikari. That clone operates according to Seele's program. It is not our concern.


In addition to an actual number for this poor Rei, we get two important things here:

(A) Rei clones can act as recipients for data.
(B) Rei 6 “operates according to Seele’s program”.

(The original phrase is ゼーレのプログラムで動いている; I wonder if that could also mean “runs on Seele’s program”…)

From what we know of Rei 6’s behavior in the final film, she doesn’t seem to interact with anyone. By her own admission, she just “waits for orders”. Makes one wonder, then, what’s really going on here:

SPOILER: Show
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Or, for that matter, what was actually going on back here…

SPOILER: Show
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Back in NGE, the dummy system was being made at Nerv HQ, and so Rei’s time in the capsule was explained that way. Her “personality data” was being uploaded. In NTE, this is no longer true. The dummy system was created at an entirely different Nerv base, Golgotha, and, whatever the hell it is, it means Rei’s giant facility has to be for something else.

It’s sounding an awful lot like the script was flipped here. Instead of Rei’s data being uploaded into a machine, Rei is downloading data from a machine. At least, in the case of Rei 6. (Rei 2 was wearing some strange, kinky equipment and her capsule, unlike 6’s, has glyphs on it, so there’s no guarantee she was doing the same thing in there.) She’s probably getting “orders” from Seele through that device.

But the fact that believes the Seele program to be herself tells us it’s far more than just an occasional upload into her head. She somehow had Seele OS installed inside her head early on. She’s meatware for malware.

This raises an awful lot of weird and uncomfortable questions. So, presumably, this means her relationship with Mark.09 at the end there was kind of like a thumb drive? She had the data inside her, so with her slotted inside Mark.09’s USB drive, the program went off the way Seele designed it to. Mark.09’s own setup could explain why Rei’s ejection didn’t seem to have any effect; its core-based body seems to provide extensive backups for its main core that can set in as needed, and ultimately that’s all data. The core-body acting in the capacity of RAM as well doesn’t seem all that far-fetched.

I’m less clear on the discrepancy between Rei being fully compliant where her “orders” are concerned — which, the cut lines imply, is part of Seele’s programming as well — only to rebel against what’s in her head when the program is fully unleashed and takes on a life outside of her. The program ‘othering’ her is peculiar, in and of itself. Is there something really obvious that I’m missing here?

In any case, if Rei still has this program inside her head — why wouldn’t it still be there? — then it doesn’t seem like such a stretch that this could come back in 3+1 in a major way. Maybe breaking free of it isn’t as simple as that first act of personal volition. And if its “malware” feature was lurking inside her waiting for the 12th Angel to be set free until it went off, there could exist other contingencies waiting for their moment.

It was a little hard to believe that Seele would let themselves walk offstage so … preemptively, and perhaps we don’t have to believe it. In a sense, Seele still exist inside her. Reminds me of this, mostly in a “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” way:

KAWORU:
Even when a soul is lost,
its aspirations and curses remain in this world.
Human will is conveyed as information
throughout the world, and changes it.
In time, we rewrite who we are.


This little speech of his is SUPER weird and doesn’t answer Shinji’s question “What should I do?” even a little, but it does at least prepare the audience for another bizarre shift in gears from NGE to NTE. That being, a shift in metaphysical interest toward the concept of “living data”. Life can be reduced to raw information; both meat-based life and core-based life is a medium for containing and transmitting information; that information can be transformed along the way; etc. I’ve been trying to slowly piece together the “big picture” the movies are maybe getting at, but it’s such a dramatic change and we have so little that’s concrete to work with, it’s hard to do much other than ‘vaguely anticipate’. We might be going full Metal Gear Solid 2 here, though… (Who’ll be the first character to utter the word “meme”, you think?)

Kaworu, in his own bizarre way, seems to be saying that extraspiritual means of propagating “life data” confer more immortality than the soul itself. We saw Seele’s monoliths, the things they’ve been using as containers for their “transformed souls”. They looked heavily degraded in 3.0, far from the clean core texture they once were. Perhaps turning them off was a mere formality and they were all doomed anyway. Ensuring some way for their will to carry on after their deaths only makes sense. Rei 6 could be once such means.

But if we can rewrite who we are, then maybe Rei still has a chance. We know that in the world of NTE, technology for “brainwashing” and “memory erasing” exists. Maybe a form of this same technology is involved in Rei’s facility. What this means, though, is that there are ways to alter the data written to the brain. Maybe these tools that have been used to ruthlessly manipulate people like Shinji could actually be used for good, for once.

Well, this has been thoroughly strange. Thoughts?

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Blockio » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:37 am

In literally any other franchise, I would say that the cockpit scene is a production oversight and the storyboard line just weird wording, and call it a day, since everything else kinda hinges on that. But in Eva - there probably is something to it. I don't think that your theory is 100% true, there is something about it that irks me, something fits into place just a tad too conveniently, but I can't for the life of me say, which part it is
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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:12 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:In literally any other franchise, I would say that the cockpit scene is a production oversight

In the storyboards, in the cut where the monitors go out, there is a little note with an asterisk next to it: "Monitors shut off?" The fact that Rei's eyeline shifts up exactly as the monitors go out tells you it was quite purposeful, as well.

I'm not sure how any of this is convenient when it's so difficult to notice and, even once you have, coming to any conclusions about it is extremely tricky. Quite the opposite of convenient, I'd say.

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Blockio » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:24 pm

"convenient" in the sense of "all of this fits into place too well", like there is not really any mystery left once you have taken the first hint. It just seems rather... non-anno-esque, to have everything fall into place so nicely once the first step is made.
Might just be me, but I feel like there is something else/more going on at the same time.
Just a gut feeling, but this just seems too... round. Too perfect for a plotline that hasn't even fully started yet.

Reichu wrote:In the storyboards, in the cut where the monitors go out, there is a little note with an asterisk next to it: "Monitors shut off?" The fact that Rei's eyeline shifts up exactly as the monitors go out tells you it was quite purposeful, as well.

that is really interesting, didn't know that!
so yeah, definitely intentional, and definitely something that wouldn't have been intentionally been put into other franchises
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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Giji Shinka » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:39 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:"convenient" in the sense of "all of this fits into place too well", like there is not really any mystery left once you have taken the first hint. It just seems rather... non-anno-esque, to have everything fall into place so nicely once the first step is made.
Might just be me, but I feel like there is something else/more going on at the same time.
Just a gut feeling, but this just seems too... round. Too perfect for a plotline that hasn't even fully started yet.

Yeah, after reading Reichu's recent analysis (which makes a lot compelling arguments), I feel like the next movie is going to blow every secret wide open and most things will make sense and fall perfectly into place.
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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:59 pm

Blockio: There were a number of open questions that came up in my post, in fact. How does running programs out of a human brain even work to begin with? (Are the Reis actually cyborgs? Is this just something that can be specially done with Reis because they're not "completely human" and have their own unique properties?) What did Rei 2 use that facility for? Why did the Seele program 'other' Rei 6? How was Rei 6 able to rebel against it? What does the program's existence mean for her character arc in 3+1? There are things I didn't touch upon, too. Why do Seele bother using Rei at all, as opposed to machine-based automation? Does it have something to do with the loss of Mark.06? Or maybe using core-based tech like a dummy system on a completely core-based Eva just doesn't work for some reason? Mari calls Rei "Seele's provisional pilot" and insinuates that she'll become the Adams' Vessel if she doesn't escape... What about her is 'provisional'? She would have become a/the Adams' Vessel in what way? When/how?

Additional thoughts:

If the post-2.0 preview is an indication of anything still, there's a reference to "Seele's Children", which, in addition to Kaworu, the storyboards reveal are the four Rei. The oldest of these is wearing the "transfer student" outfit, which appears outside Rei 6's room in Q, thus indicating that at least that Rei had actually existed, and suggesting that Seele have been using Reis for their own purposes for quite some time. Also, three Rei clones unaccounted for... Three Evas at the end of the lineup unaccounted for... Hmmmm.

And we still have this...

SPOILER: Show
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...to look forward to. With that shot going out of its way to make Rei appear doll-like, I've wondered if Fuyutsuki intends to take advantage of her "programability" in some way.

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:08 pm

Are you sure that the movie isn’t intentionally linking Rei Q, 12 Angel, and Seele programming by cutting these visual together? Like, maybe they’re connected in some way. After all, “Seele’s Boy” (Kaworu) was initially the pilot for the Mark.06 that ended up housing the 12th Angel. And that 12th Angel that was contained by Seele’s Boy did look an awful lot like Rei/Yui as it was transforming, and the same time Rei saw the Seele Program begin to run.

Whatever happened to the 12th Angel was within accordance to Seele’s plan, just like their Program, just like their Rei Q. When Rei sees the Seele Program and asks “Is this who I am?” the film answers her question by also showing the audience Seele’s 12th Angel transforming into Rei’s face. Basically, the movie is showing that Rei is as much of a pawn in Seele’s plan as the 12th Angel, and Rei, realizing her state as a pawn, is questioning whether or not she wants this. This is why she later on asks “What would Rei Ayanami do?” And when Asuka shouts “Do what you want to do,” Rei rebels from her state as a Seele’s Pawn by ejecting and deciding her own agency.

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby cyharding » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:27 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I was pretty baffled by this until I remembered some dialogue that had been trimmed from 3.0 at the storyboard stage.

If those lines were taken out of the final film, should it even be used as evidence in the first place?
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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:09 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Are you sure that the movie isn’t intentionally linking Rei Q, 12 Angel, and Seele programming by cutting these visual together?

I never precluded that possibility; I actually acknowledged that the scene was set up in a way that gives us more information to work with than it gives Rei. I thought the link between Rei and the program was worth giving an independent look, however, since I don't think I've ever seen this element of the scene pointed out before, nor linked to that mysterious cut dialogue, nor tied into how Rei actually gets her orders, etc.

I'll give this angle you provide some thought, since there's still plenty about that sequence that baffles me. :thumbsup:

View Original Postcyharding wrote:If those lines were taken out of the final film, should it even be used as evidence in the first place?

You believe that production materials should never be used to shed light on aspects of the final product that lack clarity? If so, I wouldn't agree with that. Exercise caution, yes, but completely disregard -- especially when it fits the facts without major issue --, no. If you can give me a specific reason why the cut lines should be ignored -- for example, they CONFLICT with the final product in a way I didn't consider -- I'm listening.

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Heaven Piercing Man » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:09 pm

This makes me draw conspiracy lines between the "mental contamination" term and the "cognitohazards" and "memetic kill agents" from the SCP foundation.
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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:43 pm

@Reichu and @Blockio, I was riding back home today and something regarding this post suddenly crossed my mind:

- Just like Rei can't see the outside of Mark.09 after Seele's program override, the other pilots can't see her inside it too. We can observe this detail when Asuka only recognizes her as an "early model of the Ayanami Series" after seeing her at the end of the movie, despite having her little dialogue with Rei on their fight earlier;
- So it made me wonder: can we really assume that Mari was talking of Rei#2 or Yui when she refers to [Rei]'s "original"? If she didn't exactly know that an Ayanami clone was piloting Mark.09 at that time, and didn't see her afterwards, could it be that the "original" she was referring to was in fact a previous Mk.09 pilot, maybe the one that "became Adams' Vessel"? More on this latter;
- When Seele's program took control of Mark.09, it started to operate without the pilot's inputs, autonomously. Just a few minutes earlier, we're also made aware of an Eva unit which too was turned autonomous: Mark.06. Could it be that Seele's program was behind it too? We can trace a few parallels here: both Mk.06 and Mk.09 are assumed to be directly related to the Adams; both are "Mark Series", presumably being of Seele's design and operation; but most importantly, both of them starts to fuse with another angelic-related thing after becoming autonomous (Lilith's corpse and AAA Wunder, respectively);
- In light of this, one can wonder if what Mari was referring to when talking about "become Adams Vessel" wasn't exactly what was happening to Rei#6 at that time and happened before with Mk.06. We hardly would be presented with the explanation, since Mari couldn't see inside Mk.09's entry plug;
- If that's the case, could it be that the "Mark" designation is given to Evas programed with or infected by Seele's "virus"? We're presented with Seele having seemly uploaded their souls to core-tech monoliths, it might as well be possible that the "program" was in fact some sort of "virulent soul" too, in line with their denomination (german for "soul");
- Finally, if we take that "becoming Adams' Vessel" is equal to "infecting" an Eva with Seele's "soul-virus", could that be that the "original" Mk.09 pilot I proposed earlier be the same "children" that previously "infected" Mk.06, this being Kaworu? The parallels between him and Rei are already remarkable, could it be that Seele's being using them both as meatware for Eva's "Markfication"?

Any thoughts on the matter? :???:

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Settie » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:01 pm

View Original PostGuiBiancarelli wrote:- When Seele's program took control of Mark.09, it started to operate without the pilot's inputs, autonomously. Just a few minutes earlier, we're also made aware of an Eva unit which too was turned autonomous: Mark.06. Could it be that Seele's program was behind it too?


I think that's what literally happened. Mark 6 was made autonomous with a Seele AI program and they stuck a Rei clone in the plug as an intermediary, hence why Lillith looked like Rei. It "absorbed" her like how the 10th angel absorbed Rei 2.

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Reichu » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:29 pm

GuiBiancarelli: I'll have to give it a little thought. :chinscratch:

View Original PostSettie wrote:I think that's what literally happened. Mark 6 was made autonomous with a Seele AI program and they stuck a Rei clone in the plug as an intermediary, hence why Lillith looked like Rei. It "absorbed" her like how the 10th angel absorbed Rei 2.

Lilith's head is the only part of her that looks like Rei; her body was "nondescript humanoid". The head was also cut off at the point where it would have been just a little bigger than an Eva. Mark.06 is fused where the head USED to be (meaning, the head needed to be removed for Mark.06 to plant itself there), and it is white and gigantic (MUCH MUCH larger than a normal Eva) prior to Lilith's image collapse, implying that it grew along with Lilith as part of the fusion.

The takeaway from all this is, Lilith looked like Rei only BEFORE Mark.06 got involved. Once it lopped off her head and merged with her, Lilith's body STOPPED looking like Rei, presumably as a direct result of 06's influence. The 12th Angel would have been the one to awaken Lilith and bring the Rei influence to her. Eva-07 is completely unaccounted for; maybe it was a Rei-piloted unit that got absorbed in a successful repeat of what the 10th Angel attempted.

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Rei IV » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:20 am

Gotta give it to you Reichu, I never would've considered the possibility ReiQ of being "blind" once the Seele programing took effect and would in no away see what the hell was going on outside. I'm totally down with that possibility, ReiQ being startled by the Seele programing. That, and probably recognizing her own laughter in OldRei's trademark hellish giggling would be enough to ring alarms.

I find it interesting that this incantation of Rei is (or appears) seemingly "less" than human and is treated a such, at least when compared to Rei II. You can debate/argue till the cows come home how old Nerv and Gendo treated her, but at least there was some emotional investment, sentimentality (or should I say empathy and sympathy?) and concern, specifically regards to her well-being or not, regardless of ulterior motives. Think of the dinner scene. He did care about her on some level. 14 years later, Rei is indisputably a tool, disposable and if something happens, well LOLz, more Rei clones to make like it's no big thing. It's difficult to articulate but Rei seemed more (literally), even with her God-like powers as Lilith, flesh and bones in NGE and the beginning of the Eva movies but now they've taken her artificial nature up a notch in Q/3.0, especially with all the jazz with computers, data, programs and shit (at least in the new movies). It, in my opinion, does make ReiQ's origins a lot more sinister and ghoulish (or dark). I can easily Fuyutsuki being ReiQ's harbinger of truth and saying something Rei I told Rei III in NGE about being false and tell her she's only pretending to be human and is nothing more than a "program", a tool, and then have ReiQ go all bug-eyed. :think:
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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:09 am

I, for one, welcome our new "Rei-6 was Raiden all along" overlord. (I much prefer him in MGS2 to MGS4, so that works for me :tongue: )

But oof this is some incredibly unsettling stuff with poor Rei. I'm assuming various things were removed from the 3.0's actual script, then, to either resolve the mysteries in Shin Eva or simply due to film/plot pacing itself.

It'll be interesting to see where this all goes, and even the unused line certainly explains a bit more just WTF is going on in the recent Shin Eva trailer, I think.

I just want to know what # Rei clone was the rather serious/Rei-looking "AU schoolgirl Ayanami" that we see in 2.0's Next Time Preview. We see evidence of her school uniform in Rei 6's "room" as a final product, too, so her existence wasn't just randomly scrapped...

Come to think of it, the little Rei 1 looking girls (according to the script/storyboards) are talking to Kaworu as a part of "Seele Children's assembly"! And later on, we have AU Ayanami + those batch of Rei 1s chatting with a serious/angry-looking Mari, according to the Preview storyboards, too...Remember Mari's "the original you was a lot friendlier" line? New Movie Edition's Rei 1? Yui herself? (A giant middle finger to modern Photobucket!)

Everything's suspicious suspicious :cringe:
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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Reichu » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:30 am

SSD: It wasn't in my initial post but I touched upon the interim Reis here, just in case you missed it. You covered most of it, but I do wonder if there's potential for the three little Reis to still show up. I really want my Adams' Vessel Miniboss Squad :P ... and if there's any legitimacy to the idea that 10 to 12 are the remaining Vessels, yet to play their role, then the mini-Reis could be their pilots. I wouldn't expect three whole new Reis to get any real development, so what might be neat is if they were used to show alternate, less fortunate ways that Rei 6 could have turned out.

"Transfer Student Rei" I want to believe is Rei 7, to go along with the missing Eva-07. Both of whom would have gotten absorbed by the 12th Angel. Seele really love 7s, and it would be morbidly hilarious if two 7s were responsible for ruining Third Impact. (Throw in the loss of Mark.06, who is #7 in the Eva Series, and you get Triple Seven. :devil: )

In the Discord, Velorex shared the neat observation that the shot of Creepy Rei in Trailer 2 calls back to Rei contemplating, "What do YOU want to do?!" Dark mirror of that moment, incoming!!

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:50 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I just want to know what # Rei clone was the rather serious/Rei-looking "AU schoolgirl Ayanami" that we see in 2.0's Next Time Preview.


If the Ayanami Series is too subject to the "Curse of Eva", then it may be Rei#6 (ReiQ).
However, one can contemplate what would be if they're not... Then it might be that Rei#3 was the schoolgirl grown-up and Reis #4 to #6 are the smaller ones. If that's the case, we might see 2 more clones piloting Reichu's proposed other Adams' Vessels (we're still one short to complete 4 units, though). :think:

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Settie » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:26 pm

@Reichu: To be fair Lilliths body is a bloated decaying mess by the time of 3.0 and without knowing the sequence of events, i tend to go for the simplest explanation. The 12th angel core "spawns" a bunch of images of Rei heads before being swallowed and the only eva we know for sure it inhabited was the Mark6. If it followed what the instinct of the other angels it would sought out Lilith to merge with her, making it the originator for the Rei look of Lillith. As to who actually threw the spears, that remains unknown.

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby LightDragonman » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:50 am

Sooo if true, Rei in this film is basically Robocop? :tongue:
Proud fanboy of Rei Ayanami. :p

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Re: Rei #6 and the Programmable Human

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Postby Chroma » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:29 pm

Very interesting stuff - despite how many times I've watched Q at this point, I never made the observation that ReiQ is likely, if not definitely, actually looking at something else. That she can't see outside, and that what is causing her worries is something within the EVA itself. There's a lot to unpack here in terms of how she could be 'programmable', and what this ultimately means for her fate and for her development.

In connection, however, I wonder if/how the Angel Sealing Hex Glyphs might or might not factor into this. Ostensibly they've only been used by NERV and Wille, and, aside from the DSS Choker/the Pillars, in ways that aren't outwardly explicable or obvious, but could they possibly tie into all of this? Clone body or not, Rei is still (very likely) connected to Lilith, an Angel. Could the "programming" be done by these symbols? Could her actions and personality be tweaked, implanted, suggested, or otherwise forced through the Glyphs?
Insignificance is bliss


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