Reichu wrote:Sailor Star Dust: Some of the Shinji/Rei stuff was actually supposed to be covered in a follow-up to the "LILITH IS ALSO AN ADAMS" reveal, but, uh.... It seems it got a bit lost in the shuffle. At this point, I'm going to do a rewatch to see if anything new pops out at me, and then hopefully I'll write the follow-up like I planned.

Then I'll just have to look forward to it when it gets here

Mari's fixation with "smell" is pretty strange, and I do expect it has some "deeper" meaning, since nioi can also refer to an impression, sense, or aura. I need to look at this element again, too. Do you have any thoughts about it?

Hm, back in the day when 2.0 came out, I figured Mari commenting on Shinji's LCL smell had to do with him being "unique". e.g. Assuming that only Yui's soul was in Eva-01, thus the rest of the Eva units were plain ol' soul-less cyborgs...Excluding whatever weirdness that 2.0 seemed imply with the "True Evangelion" Mark.06 (an Adam(s) ).

You know, Occam's razor and all that.

Hey there, It's good to see you still making these detailed posts. I remember seeing you and several others around here when I lurked years and years ago. It's especially nice to see some of the veteran members still active. I guess some things never change, huh?

This has been quite an interesting read so far. A lot of details to digest. Before I skim back through the films to dig up more answers, there are several points I wanted to respond to, lest I forget...

Reichu wrote:“Kaworu falls, Eva-13 rises”

Reichu wrote:Let’s pull out our handy dandy Zoa chart, shall we?

I wasn't too sure about the connection to the Zoa at first (nothing beyond "Oh, neat parallel, can't tell if intentional"), due to my lacking knowledge of that particular mythology and any concrete references that are as strong and specific as the Judeo-Christian symbolism. But then I noticed something with the imagery here that made me sit back and really consider the possibility. Perhaps you were already aware of it and were intending to draw attention to it with the above overlay all along, but I wanted to point it out explicitly just in case:



I always thought Unit 13's double-halo was a strange design choice. It's not that uncommon for halos in general to be stylized beyond a single glowing ring just for the heck of it, but this is Eva we're talking about, nothing is really done just for the heck of it. The similarity to the Urizen and Adam rings in that diagram is really quite striking, and provides a direct connection between Unit 13's ascension and the Zoa diagram. Nice find.

Reichu wrote: Suspiciously, the Neo-Nerv pyramid also has a device inside it identical to the Wunder’s engine.

I'll admit they do look pretty similar, however we know the function of the object we're seeing here: the artificial(?) womb of Unit 13. It seems strange that such a mechanism would also function as an engine. Perhaps it's drawing a link between core and womb imagery in the Eva physiology - though their core placement (what we know of it) seems wrong, closer to the chest than the abdomen. It feels like a stretch in my humble opinion. I'm still not sold on the concept of both Moons coming with an aircraft - or on Mark.09 being disqualified as an Adams (as far as I remember, the only other Evas we've seen generate halos so far have been Adams, and the Wunder's would be explained by its link to Mark.09 as an Adams) - but I look forward to your future points on the subject.

Reichu wrote:So, assuming the Fruit of Life DOES reside inside the core like in old Eva (which both 01 and 13's pseudo-evolutions suggest, to variable degrees of persuasiveness)

Forgive my memory and the length of time since my last rewatch, but have the Fruit ever explicitly been referenced in NTE? Maybe they are another old relic from NGE that needs to be tossed aside to better understand this new canon? They don't seem integral to your emerging theory - rather, the void of any relevant information on the Fruit seems to be holding it back.

Reichu wrote:- If still inside core, why would Gendo rely on something as finicky as absorbing Angels to awaken 01 and 13? Does Seele simply keep the Vessels under lock and key? Gendo couldn't mastermind 13 into absorbing Mk.9 somehow?.

Hi, I signed up to comment on this thread, this has been a really interesting theory thread to read. I had a thought on why Mark 09 might not be useful to Gendo even if it has the FoL. During the climatic battle sequence in Q, both 13 and 9 seem to become controlled by some volitional force beyond their pilots. However, 13 doesn't have anything weird happen in the entry plugs, while 9 has the Seele symbol appear throughout its cockpit and block the visual feed. Mark 9 inflicts this same interface screw upon the Wunder when it attempts to assert control over it. Perhaps Mark. 09 (having already been completed at some point before the events of Q) was a poison pill as far as Gendo was concerned? Too contaminated by whatever programming Seele placed within it. Since the Mark 09 is "all core" Seele's programming must be inside the core material of at least the outer body, and quite possibly the central "main" core as well. Perhaps if 13 ate 9's core, it would have assimilated Seele's programming as well and thus become unsuited to Gendo's plans.

As for Unit 1, I think lack of access is a perfectly suitable explanation for that one. Seele clearly has bases not under Gendo's influence. He had to go moon base spying after all. However by Q most of humanity appears to be quite dead. Its core as far as the eye can see. They might not have had a choice by that point about letting Gendo have the toys.

Of course its also possible the Adam's Vessels have somehow lost the FoL but the Core is still the seat for the FoL. Everything about the Mark 9 is pretty screwy, and the FoL's nature in Rebuild has gone entirely unelaborated upon in the movies.


on an unrelated note, @Krikenemp: If memory serves correctly the FoL/FoK dichotomy is mentioned in the movies by at least Gendo, however Rebuild completely fails to have any mention of the Super Solenoid Engine, which in NGE was the physical manifestation of the FOL. Given that, I suppose it is possible that in Rebuild its metaphorical.

I did claim the next post would take care of the remaining catch-up, but my plans were again foiled... Tomorrow, maybe!

@Krikenemp: First post, eh? Welcome to the world beyond lurking! (There have been a number of “first posts” made to this thread. Wow, speak of the devil; Luminar posted while I was writing this! It’s super flattering in that “I don’t know what to do with myself other than blush and stutter ineffectually” kind of way.) And, yeah, much as I’ve tried, the Curse of Eva has got me good. Before 3.0, I thought that maybe I could break free, but…… Oh well, I’ll have more chances in the future.

Stupidly enough, despite spending an excessive amount of time in Photoshop switching Urthona and Urizen’s spheres (as in, moving their names and changing the colors), I did not notice that Eva-13’s halo was in there! So major kudos for pointing that out. That’s actually pretty incredible, and very rewarding!

About Wunder… Rats, and I just said I wanted to avoid talking about the flying ships much more… but I guess the Wunder is okay...

"Pretty similar" feels somewhat conservative. I'll admit "identical" was overdoing it a little, but we've seen more variety in entry plugs than between these two devices. The cables are placed a little differently (Wunder's "engine" here), though as far as I can tell these look the same as those on Eva-13's capsule, down to the revolving bits at their bases. We can't confirm that the weird channel that Eva-02 uses to insert the igniter also exists on the Eva-13 capsule, though, more importantly, note that both capsules have fleshy membranous structures on the inside... The visual provided for the Wunder looks at least a little like a junction between three womb-like "pockets", of the sort that Eva-13 is ripped out of.



As for them ostensibly serving completely different functions, it bears keeping in mind that this is a mysterious and unfamiliar form of technology. That they look the same while seeming superficially to not do the same thing does not mean they are actually dissimilar and comparisons should not be drawn -- it means our information is incomplete, and possibly signifies that the full functionality of both surpasses what we've seen either one individually doing. This is "show, don't tell" working as intended.

One thing I should point out is that we can only make assumptions about what exactly Eva-13 was doing inside there. Fuyutsuki does say "the final executor has been completed" when 13 is being pulled out — but completed in what way? Are we supposed to think that they just threw an Impact-damaged Adams in there, and it popped out fully converted into an Eva with extra retractable limbs and a double entry system and everything? I guess it wouldn't be the most inexplicable thing in these films, but these movies are also very sneaky and love to play with expectations. The metaphysics in NTE are very, VERY poorly understood, so I personally don’t want to rule out Eva-13 being in that capsule for some reason besides the "obvious".

(EDIT: Having slept on it, this might actually be the key to answering "how in seven hells did Gendo bring about Kaworu's Fall?"...! I.e., that device was somehow used to add the finishing touches to 13, by "priming" the Eva to parasitize Kaworu when the time came and Shinji triggered its Awakening. Love this new angle; it'll be fun to explore further.)

For another, as I noted back in my "Mk.9, Pt.1" post, Eva-01’s capsule being an "engine" is a gross oversimplication. I won't repeat what I already said back there, though I will add that, although the movie itself isn’t terribly direct about it, there does exist the implication that Eva-01 itself is “enwombed” and awaiting a sort of rebirth. Takeshi Honda’s illustration for the Q movie booklet puts this subtext front and center:



The Wunder being an Evangelion analogue that’s “piloted” by the Adams through a device that combines attributes of both a core and an entry plug actually ties in perfectly with the idea that the Eva pilots are the incarnated Adams, now that I think about it...

As for finding the Mark.09 stuff unconvincing: Looking over the points you raise, I'm not sure what else I could say that wouldn't just be a repeat of the write-up. If anything was too vague or featured one of those weird leaps in logic that sometimes sneak into writing, I'll be happy to fix it. But there's no rush, really; take your time to think things over.

Wunder’s halos come from Eva-01, same as its energy and A.T. Field. See how there are two? One for Yui and one for Rei.

Regarding the Fruits, they are mentioned on three separate occasions at least, one of these being in dialogue added in the switch from 1.01 to 1.11, and the other two coming from key expository scenes in 3.33. (Keep an eye open for them when you get around to a rewatch.) The movies were never terribly subtle, either, about the Fruits being elements from NGE that were getting carried over. Both the Nerv and Seele logos were altered to include reference to the Fruit of Knowledge -- and the existence of that implies that the Fruit of Life is also around somewhere.



Though, having said that, I'm as familiar as anyone with not paying attention to most of this stuff until being given a reason to pay attention.

Giji Shinka wrote:Once again, very impressive stuff Reichu. The way you connected Adams and Kaworu to Four Zoas ( Urizen, Tharmas, Luvah/Orc and Urthona/Los) is probably my favorite part of this analysis.

I actually can't claim credit for the initial find -- two key posts are probably this one by Kodaemon and this one by Sachi. Why was that your favorite part of the analysis, out of curiosity? You mention "Los" and "Orc", both of whom I've completely ignored in a "looks promising but further research needed" kind of way, so perhaps you're already familiar with Blake's work? If so, I could see how linking it to the films might be more interesting than conspiracy theories about scientists birthing reincarnated aliens in a lab or Shinji doing Second Impact or something. My own level of Blake knowledge is, alas, pretty anemic at the moment; I'm hoping to pick up his complete works later this month (birthday money!) and begin the long, difficult process of making any sense out of it.

So Eva's 9-12 are Adams' cores and they're the original cores of Eva-Unit.01, Eva-Mark.06 and Eva-Unit.13 (+ Nebuchadnezzar's Key?) and the cores they currently have are "fake"?

"Urthona" (which I use mostly because it's way easier to write than "the Adams who became the Key of Nebuchadnezzar") presumably was destroyed, except for the remnant incorporated into the key, so no core would be left behind. If my guess about Evas 10, 11, and 12 has any merit, then 9 through 12 would presumably be the cores of Adam!Luvah, Lilith!Luvah, Tharmas, and Urizen. My follow-up Mk.9 post will go into which of the four Mk.9 was, and why the existence of the "Vessels" matters.

Luminar wrote:Hi, I signed up to comment on this thread, this has been a really interesting theory thread to read. I had a thought on why Mark 09 might not be useful to Gendo even if it has the FoL. (snip)

Welcome to EGF, and honored to have you with us! Good thoughts all around. You've actually preempted some of the topics I hope to cover next! When I get there, I'll present my thoughts "as originally intended", but the alternatives you've provided are really valuable; thank you! I may actually start up a conversation specifically about the Seele program soon, too, since I recently noticed something about it that is really messing with my head, and getting other people's thoughts would be great.

And you're correct, the FoL has not been identified as anything specific so far. The term "S2 engine" was batted around in the pre-production for 2.0, but all mentions were cut along the way. Pretty smart decision -- keeping things vague earlier on lets them build up to a more satisfying reveal if one is eventually warranted. Whatever it is, it can apparently be transferred from one being to another multiple times through the medium of core/LCL: the 10th Angel dissolves, its LCL reforms into a giant Rei made of core, this core-Rei merges into Eva-01, and Eva-01 acquires the Fruit of Life as a result. This observation has a LOT of weird (and potentially super-important) applications for the film series as a whole...

GuiBiancarelli wrote:Since Kaworu is usually presented as a messianic figure, I think that this passage points to some valid correlations with your theory: the dichotomy between the first and the last, alpha and omega; reference to a first and a last Adam; the life-giving quickening; etc.

Nice find, and thank you for sharing it! I'll definitely look further into that when I have a chance. (This reminds me, incidentally, that I really need to go Bible-shopping, but there are so many versions and my needs are so specific that it's easy to put off...)

GuiBiancarelli wrote:Even though I'm still skeptic about the Adams' division you propose, (...)

Are there any specific points I can address or expand upon, out of curiosity?

Reichu wrote:"Urthona" (which I use mostly because it's way easier to write than "the Adams who became the Key of Nebuchadnezzar") presumably was destroyed, except for the remnant incorporated into the key, so no core would be left behind. If my guess about Evas 10, 11, and 12 has any merit, then 9 through 12 would presumably be the cores of Adam!Luvah, Lilith!Luvah, Tharmas, and Urizen. My follow-up Mk.9 post will go into which of the four Mk.9 was, and why the existence of the "Vessels" matters.

Ah, okay.
I have few question (All might have been answered already): What do you think these supposed "fake cores of Adams" are made of? Are they made of the same material as e.g Eva armor? Why new core was needed for Yui's core direct entry instead of the original? (Too risky? Because of Yui's seemingly non-human nature?)

Why didn't NERV/SEELE do this: Remove an Adams' core, put a fake one in and when the time comes, reattach the original core to an Adam Evangelion and restart the impact?
Did SEELE decide to create Mk. units out of these original cores because they're now unusable for an impact? or maybe reattaching original cores could cause an impact, but it would probably go against SEELE's version of instrumentality?

Reichu wrote:
And you're correct, the FoL has not been identified as anything specific so far. The term "S2 engine" was batted around in the pre-production for 2.0, but all mentions were cut along the way. Pretty smart decision -- keeping things vague earlier on lets them build up to a more satisfying reveal if one is eventually warranted. Whatever it is, it can apparently be transferred from one being to another multiple times through the medium of core/LCL: the 10th Angel dissolves, its LCL reforms into a giant Rei made of core, this core-Rei merges into Eva-01, and Eva-01 acquires the Fruit of Life as a result. This observation has a LOT of weird (and potentially super-important) applications for the film series as a whole...

Yeah, and Unit 13 doesn't turn on its red highlights and go radiant until it condenses and devours the twelfth angel. 2 and 3 pretty clearly establish that consumption of the FoL is still a thing that happens. Personally though what I'm most curious about is if this core-based transfer of the FoL will have any consequences derived from the explosion of Core-tech and things that can be "made of core" in the rebuild continuity. If the area around Tokyo-3 can end up being made of core with giant chasm mouths and an iris like structure, could the planet eventually count as a core that can receive the Fruit of Life? Can a Seele Monolith since those aren't just sound only holograms anymore (and have something like the moving core texture)? Could a failure of Infinity be resurrected and granted the fruit? I'm very curious to see how much separation there is between "being made of core" and "actually works like a core."

Also, I have to wonder how much of the S2 engine omission is due to wanting to keep the metaphysics vague, and how much of it was just pruning NGE's technobabble scenes. I'd like to think the omission wasn't just for technobabble pruning reasons since NTE is so in your face about things that were kept mysterious for much of NGE's runtime. (Like how they just come right out with the identity of the white giant in the basement and Evas having cores)

Ok, gotta say this theory has so many good points that I'm almost 100% sold. Even tho, I can't help but think about Asuka's left eye in 3.0, while angel contamination is already a big deal, Asuka having an Adam soul could bring a whole lot of other implications and makes me more curious about what the hell was going inside EVA-03 during Bardiel's corruption.

Reichu wrote:@Krikenemp: First post, eh? Welcome to the world beyond lurking!

Thanks! Though I did have an account at one point, no idea what happened to it. Seemed like an apt time for a new beginning.

Reichu wrote:As for them ostensibly serving completely different functions, it bears keeping in mind that this is a mysterious and unfamiliar form of technology. That they look the same while seeming superficially to not do the same thing does not mean they are actually dissimilar and comparisons should not be drawn -- it means our information is incomplete, and possibly signifies that the full functionality of both surpasses what we've seen either one individually doing. This is "show, don't tell" working as intended.

Right, you're not wrong, but visual similarity also does not necessarily mean functional similarity. I'm merely remaining skeptical for now until we have more concrete evidence of its purpose.

Reichu wrote:One thing I should point out is that we can only make assumptions about what exactly Eva-13 was doing inside there. Fuyutsuki does say "the final executor has been completed" when 13 is being pulled out — but completed in what way? Are we supposed to think that they just threw an Impact-damaged Adams in there, and it popped out fully converted into an Eva with extra retractable limbs and a double entry system and everything? I guess it wouldn't be the most inexplicable thing in these films, but these movies are also very sneaky and love to play with expectations. The metaphysics in NTE are very, VERY poorly understood, so I personally don’t want to rule out Eva-13 being in that capsule for some reason besides the "obvious".

Also true, though it could have any number of other functions that we have no way to verify yet, so it seems prudent to pursue those we can verify. The gestation and c-section imagery is very clear, though what that could mean, I still don't have an answer. It is very curious how Unit 13 emerges fully decked out in all its fancy trimmings. Right now, the only connection I can make to its "birth" in this scene is how the 12th angel's core bloats into what resembles a swollen fetus just before becoming a god's lunch. The infancy theme stops there though so it may be a dead end, at least until more is revealed.

Reichu wrote:Regarding the Fruits, they are mentioned on three separate occasions at least, one of these being in dialogue added in the switch from 1.01 to 1.11, and the other two coming from key expository scenes in 3.33. (Keep an eye open for them when you get around to a rewatch.) The movies were never terribly subtle, either, about the Fruits being elements from NGE that were getting carried over. Both the Nerv and Seele logos were altered to include reference to the Fruit of Knowledge -- and the existence of that implies that the Fruit of Life is also around somewhere.

Oh yes, I had forgotten about that, thank you. I got the references on my rewatch and it is hard to deny their importance... Yet another piece to puzzle out later I guess.

I took so. many. screenshots while rewatching and a lot of new things jumped out at me after having read this thread. The sheer density of Q's visual imagery toward the last quarter is actually dizzying. There are like 10+ notepad docs on my desktop noting different threads of intrigue to chase. Finding relevant places to even begin discussing them all is going to be a trial in itself, as there are so many disparate but interwoven pieces to thread together. (Is there a "general observations and screenshots" thread for things that aren't necessarily worthy of making an entire thread for?)

IRL has been sniping away my energy and focus, hence the lack of updates... But here's a little something, at least.


Mark.09’s True Identity

If Mark.09 was originally one of the Adams’ cores… WHICH Adams’ core? Is there any possible way to know, or at least make an educated guess?

To start with, Mark.09 “awakens” around the same time that Eva-13 does. When Eva-13 ascends up the Main Shaft and into the sky, Mark.09 is visible in a couple of shots following closely behind, halo evident.



Afterward, when Wille attempt to trap and power down Eva-13 with the Wunder, Mark.09 quickly steps in and begins its assault and takeover of the ship, which lets Eva-13 resume its impact unmolested.

That on its own wouldn’t mean much. But there’s more. The following two things are depicted back-to-back: (A) the Seele program inside 09 activating…



...and (B) Shinji losing control of Eva-13.



One happening right after the other suggests there could be causation, or at least correlation. And it gets better. What happens after Mark.09 is destroyed?

Kaworu is able to control Eva-13 and make it stab itself. Sure, maybe he could have done it at any time. We can’t prove he wasn’t just sitting around doing nothing for... reasons. But that still wouldn’t explain Shinji suddenly being cut out of the controls earlier. If Shinji losing the controls and Kaworu regaining the controls have the same cause, though, that simplifies things.

What could that cause possibly be? Well…



...how about the Seele program?

If Mark.09 was originally Eva-13’s core, then this could, potentially, make sense. We’re shown with Lilith that body parts that have been separated can retain some kind of connection. Her head, though removed from the rest of her by some distance, is still subject to the influences of the spears; when they’re removed, her head dissolves along with her body. Rei Q’s ability to have a soul that is somewhere other than inside her may also tie into this feature of the NTE universe. If similar principles apply to the Adams — and with Lilith being involved in their creation, I don’t see reason to reject the idea outright — then hypothetically the core could retain a link to the body even after removal and replacement. The applications are precisely what we see on-screen. Split an Adams into two targets; load one of them with the Impact machinery; load the other with a remote-control program that ensures things go as they should, and it can play wingman on top of that.



Even if you’ve followed me this far, you must be thinking, “Wait, what? Didn’t you say that Eva-13 was Asuka’s original body? And if Mark.09 is Eva-13’s core, then…??”

Yes! That is exactly where this is going!

Blue Goo

It’s not as though you have to look all that hard for a connection, either. When Mark.09 first lands on the Wunder, and fully shifts over to its “transitional form”, it flashes a neon blue:



And then, when it starts hacking into the Wunder, it does so by dropping glowing bluish tendrils out of its legs, which make their way onto the Wunder’s “engine” (where Eva-01 is):



With any luck, these should remind you of a similar blue glow associated with the 9th Angel, and with Asuka subsequently. Selection of images follows:



Another neat connection here is how we see this blue goo used — to invasively connect one entity to another. It gets better, though.

Eva-03 uses its arms to send blue outgrowths into Eva-01…



...whereas Mark.09 uses its legs to send blue outgrowths into the engine of the Wunder — thus, also into Eva-01.



Also, this COULD just be nothing, but, for the sake of completeness…

Most of the pilots have plugsuits with a round red “core” over the pit of the stomach. The exception to this? Asuka. Her pre-Wille model plugsuits have no “core” feature at all:



Once Mark.09 entered the scene of the “possibly Asuka-relevant”, it occurred to me that perhaps this bit of weirdness about Asuka’s plugsuits actually might serve some purpose after all, however opaque. Check out our fine friend Mark.09 here:



What color is it? Black with red trim, and some smaller areas with a couple of other colors (green, gray) to break up the tedium a bit. Asuka’s original, core-less plugsuits are, in a way, the inverse: the base color is red, with black as a secondary color. What do we know about Mark.09? Its entire body is, in actuality, made of core. Is the lack of a discrete core on Asuka’s original plugsuits, then, foreshadowing such beings, and Mark.09 in particular? I kind of like the idea, but of course, given Mark.09’s possession of a central core, the fact that Asuka’s suits lack a “central core” as well keep things from lining up completely. (I suppose how well the comparison works depends entirely on how Mark.09's nature is being framed -- i.e., is it "all core", or is it "core on core"? If the former approach is used, then "mostly-red plugsuit with no discrete core element" foreshadows "all-core being" just fine.)

Then, of course, we have Asuka’s Wille plugsuit, which DOES finally give her a “core”… except it’s blue. And she’s the only pilot with a blue “core”. HMMMM.



This feels somewhat obviously like a reference to the glowing blue core-like stuff which the 9th Angel introduced us to (referred to as “core-like contamination around the entry plug”). Now, it’s interesting that the word “contamination” was used, since we see in 3.0 that this blue glow is still present in Asuka, and yet…

Eva 2.0 wrote:RITSUKO:
Physiologically, all traces of corruption are gone,
but there is the chance her mind was infiltrated.

This bit of dialogue has, understandably, tripped up speculation about what exactly happened to Asuka. She still possesses corruption from the 9th Angel, but there’s no corruption from the Angel? HUH???

Mark.09 being created from the core that once held Asuka’s soul — as strange as the concept might initially be — actually sheds some light on what’s going on here. See, if the same trait is exhibited by both Urizen’s original spiritual vessel and by an Angel that comes in contact with Urizen’s soul, then the simplest explanation is that the blue goo was never fundamentally a trait of the 9th Angel at all. Much like the 10th Angel acquiring the ghostly white flesh of Lilith (Rei’s original self) after absorbing Rei into its core, the 9th Angel, too, took on traits associated with the entity whom Asuka had once been. And thus, Asuka wasn't altered -- she was merely awakened to her former self.

I’ll look at that in more detail next time.

(Also, 9th Angel... Mark.09... Damn, I feel dumb for not noticing sooner that they, kind of like Evangelion 13 and the 13th Angel, have a "weird relationship the nature of which is not immediately apparent".)

Great job Reichu!
The way you worded this it all makes perfect sense and seems actually kind of obvious.
The links between the 9nth angel, Asuka, mark 9, and the blue goo, can't believe I didn't notice that sooner.
The effect of mk9 blue goo infiltrating Wunder seemed a bit out of place, but we've actually seen that before!

I really like this, it makes the pilots much more important than in NGE.
Lots of people are complaining about Mari, how she's basically fanservice material and we hardly see her character progression, so why is she so forced in? (Mind tho, I dont really think this, there just isn't enough screentime in the movies to truly flesh out anyone other than Shinji). But it all makes sense, if the roles of all the pilots are that much prominent. And she seems to know about this, explains her lines towards Shinji in the 3+1 preview.

Makes me wonder about Touji's t-shirt popping at Neo Nerv. I initially thought they hinted that Touji ended up at Nerv as a pilot anyway (in constrast of him being relieved of that role by Asuka). But if your stuff is true, I'm guessing only the Adam reincarnations can be actual Eva pilots. And the Touji shirt was just to fuck with Shinji's mindset.
Wunder seems a bit of an oddball, as the bridge crew seems to be piloting it much like piloting an eva. But I guess eva-01's involvement makes it special (as in, maybe it's more like eva-01 is "piloting" it, while being remote controlled by Wille, perhaps very similar to the Seele program).

I think the "curse of eva" is a cover-up, such a thing doesn't exist. It's an excuse to use why the pilots don't age "some effect of piloting eva". I'm thinking all the original adam-pilots (so excluding Rei) are all like that, having a bit of fruit of life themselves, pretty much makes them immortal and unaging.

About mk9 being the core of eva-13 makes me wonder if they removed the core from 13 to keep it intentionally incomplete. Once merged back, final impact would commence and HIP can start.
I think there needs to be a distinction within cores tho, because eva13 does seem to actually possess a core (I take it that is what got stabbed). Maybe it's empty? Without a soul? So it's not just that mk9 is made of eva13's core, but its soul. But then again, isn't Asuka supposed to be the soul? Maybe it's the Mind-Body-Soul trifecta?
So Asuka: Mind (it was also what the angel was targeting), Mk9: Soul, Eva13: Body.

Ah man, I'm ranting again, sorry about that. Hopefully raised some interesting points.
Thank you for your hard work and great theories!

I don’t mind the ranting at all, @Zoop. I can relate to it pretty well. Interesting thoughts indeed.

Comparing the Wille crew’s control over Eva-01 to the Seele program’s control of 09 and 13… Hmm, there could be something to that! I’ll have to let the thought tumble around in the ol’ brain box for a bit and see what happens. The exact relationship between ship, Eva, and crew is quite a curious matter, and I suspect taking a closer look at it would shed valuable light on the altered piloting mechanism for the Evas themselves. (Reevaluating, from the ground up, most of the mechanics that carry over in some way from NGE is something that needs to be done pretty badly.)

About the Curse of Eva, I’ll readily admit that my relevant my post in the thread feels a bit, er, incomplete and rushed… But as noted there, the three pilots that start off MOSTLY "normal" (Shinji, Asuka, Mari) all, at some point over the course of 2.0, exceed plug depth safety limits. If this is the setup, then the “curse” is the payoff. The part I wonder about the most, honestly, is why “immortality” is represented as “you’re stuck in your early teens forever”.

=Mark.09’s Ultimate Purpose=

About mk9 being the core of eva-13 makes me wonder if they removed the core from 13 to keep it intentionally incomplete. Once merged back, final impact would commence and HIP can start.

I’ve been thinking something rather similar, in fact. At the end of 3.0, there’s this short conversation:

FUYUTSUKI:
What a mess.
This is almost exactly what Seele wanted.

GENDO:
Perhaps, but we neutralized
Seele's Boy and awakened Unit 13.
Colonel Katsuragi also acted according to plan.
For now, this is acceptable.

If Misato acted according to plan, that means her (and the rest of Wille’s, by extension) actions played into Gendo’s hands, as opposed to Seele’s. The two things they successfully accomplish are:

(A) destroy Mark.09
(B) eject Shinji from Eva-13

Obviously, (B) gets the Gates of Guf to close, and in so doing stops Fourth Impact. But, practically speaking, what does (A) accomplish? Well, there is the whole “it cuts Eva-13 off from the Seele program” angle. But is that all? Mark.09 seems to be quite a multi-tasker, and one of the things it’s doing is sending progressively more of its glowing blue stuff into Wunder’s engine. Compare early in the process to later (Mk.09’s body is twisted around in the second shot, but the engine is in the same place relative to the first shot):



It takes over the ship’s systems more or less immediately, but its true goal seems to extend beyond that. To what ends, though? Well…

KIEL:
The true Evangelion… The one we dream of.
Its birth and the resurrection of Lilith will seal the pact.
The required rites must be carried out before that.
All we do, we do for the sake of the
Human Instrumentality Project.

As described previously in the thread, with Mark.06 lost, Eva-13 stepped in to take its place. The “birth” and “resurrection” happened, just as Seele desired.



With the addition of the Fruit of Life from the Angel and of Lilith’s resurrected body, Evangelion 13 may undergo a rebirth into Seele’s “True Evangelion”. But one thing is still missing from the equation to make it complete, isn’t it? — Lilith’s soul. It’s still inside Eva-01.

Seele’s interest in “resurrecting” Lilith through their True Evangelion explains Mark.09’s interest in the Wunder. It doesn’t take control of it merely to get it off Eva-13’s case. It’s attempting to reclaim Lilith’s soul! By precisely what methods, I couldn’t tell you: does it intend to fuse with Eva-01 completely? does it only want to siphon Lilith’s soul out and leave the rest of Eva-01 in there? Whatever the case, if it had been allowed to finish, the outcome is easy enough to predict. We would have a core with Lilith’s soul inside, and, on the instructions of the Seele program, it would finally recombine with its original body, Evangelion 13. The True Evangelion would be completed and Seele’s Human Instrumentality could commence.

(One does have to ask, “Why didn’t Seele have Mark.09 neutralize both of Wille’s Evas before attempting such a delicate procedure?”, and… beats me, honestly.)

---

About the core/soul/mind stuff, I’m pretty confused about what exactly is still in the Mark.09 core giving it “life” (as explored back in this post). I’m pretty sure that Asuka has a soul and not just a mind, though. Explanation of Eva 1.01 describes the entry plug as a “vessel for a soul” and the entry plug interior as the “throne of a soul” — ergo, Eva pilots have souls (unless we’re specifically told otherwise, like the bizarre situation with Rei Q). Although, now that I think about it… one potential way to resolve this issue might be to invoke the concept of a soul being made of multiple parts, as seen in Kabbalah. I don’t know very much about this, though, so that’s all I’m going to say for the moment. Definitely requires further exploration.

Thank you for your hard work and great theories!

Thank you!

Reichu wrote:This bit of dialogue has, understandably, tripped up speculation about what exactly happened to Asuka. She still possesses corruption from the 9th Angel, but there’s no corruption from the Angel? HUH???

Mark.09 being created from the core that once held Asuka’s soul — as strange as the concept might initially be — actually sheds some light on what’s going on here. See, if the same trait is exhibited by both Urizen’s original spiritual vessel and by an Angel that comes in contact with Urizen’s soul, then the simplest explanation is that the blue goo was never fundamentally a trait of the 9th Angel at all. Much like the 10th Angel acquiring the ghostly white flesh of Lilith (Rei’s original self) after absorbing Rei into its core, the 9th Angel, too, took on traits associated with the entity whom Asuka had once been. And thus, Asuka wasn't altered -- she was merely awakened to her former self.

This puts a new perspective on things. In 3.0 Asuka's eye started to glow blue under the eye patch, which at first seemed to indicate that the 9th Angel's contamination might still be present in her body and is being kept at bay by the hex glyphs on it, but now perhaps the hex glyphs are instead meant to keep Asuka's awakening under control because her current mortal body would not be able to handle it. What do you suppose might happen if the seal were to be removed? Would the blue goo begin to spread all over Asuka's body and consume or kill her?

Melkor wrote:What do you suppose might happen if the seal were to be removed? Would the blue goo begin to spread all over Asuka's body and consume or kill her?

If Asuka is indeed related to Eva13/Mk9, she might be required for HIP.
I'm imagining a bit of EoE grotesque fate for Asuka, where her "true self" spawns from her eye like that blue goo, and the remainder of Asuka's body is being dragged around, as it tries to merge with Eva13.

@Reichu sorry for the delayed response...

Reichu wrote:(This reminds me, incidentally, that I really need to go Bible-shopping, but there are so many versions and my needs are so specific that it's easy to put off...)

If it's for scholar purposes, I recommend NA28, the latest edition of Nestle & Aland Novum Testamentum Graece. We use it on textual criticism research and comparison between differences in verse's writing. The UBS5 - United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament 5th edition - is also a good pick, if your purpose is translation.

Reichu wrote:Are there any specific points I can address or expand upon, out of curiosity?

Oh, I'm just cautious in applying inductive logic to Evangelion. The amount of references used by Anno & Team is overwhelming, so to follow a chain of correlations between the show and other works can easily lead us astray. As an example, we could pick the references to Mark and Q on NTE: both are the names of the two gospels considered to be the first written ones, source for most of the others (except for John, Thomas, and possibly Peter). If we follow the logic behind it, we could propose that the Mark Series and Eva-13 (the Quickening-one) should be the original, "true Evangelions" and from it we could follow that the other Units were all derived from them - but we don't have actual evidence for this claims, besides the supposed correlation. Even the four Adams thing can point to either Blake's mythos or to Blavatsky's interpretation for the kabbalah. We could even correlate the 12 Angels from NTE with the apostles (using the number and the Neflix translation), and propose that Kaworu is presented as a reference to Judas, that fell out of grace and was replaced by Matthias (the 13th apostle according to Luke-Acts). And the list goes on and on...

Overall, I think your reasoning is very strong, and wanted to thank you for all the effort and hard work developing and sharing your thoughts with us!

This is, unfortunately, not something I previously promised to add to the thread, but a mere addendum to the “Pilots=Adams” thing. It felt worth pointing out, in any case.

GIVE ME WINGS

Energy wings are a feature that all four Adams possess at Second Impact. When Eva-01 develops similar structures, Misato makes sure we’re aware of the acute similarity — ‘listen up, this is important’.

Less obvious, however, is that over the course of Evangelion 2.22, all five pilots are identified with wings in some way.

Shinji & Rei: This one is a no-brainer. Rei is retrieved from the 10th Angel and absorbed into Eva-01 to the tune of “Tsubasa o kudasai” (“Give Me Wings”). Eva-01 begins sprouting wings as the song starts.



In the final moments of the song’s playtime, we’re shown that the two-cored radiant giant — a composite being with Yui, Shinji, and Rei inside — has developed resplendent energy wings that look extremely similar to those of the Adams from Second Impact.



Kaworu: There are two possible instances. One is arguable, the other less so.

The first has been mentioned in the thread previously. Kaworu is standing on top of Mark.06’s head, flanked by the orange stripes. These create the possible suggestion of energy wings reminiscent of the ones seen in NGE, which is… interesting.



Later, inside Mark.06’s cockpit, the screen directly behind him is sectioned to create the illusion that he has a pair of wings. Straightforward.



Asuka: She sprouts a pair of red energy wings once she’s been internalized by the 9th Angel’s core.



Ethereal feathers also flood into the entry plug during this sequence.



As an addendum to Asuka’s identification with “Urizen” (Eva-13): it gets even better. Who else sprouts red wings while internalized inside an Angel’s core?



Mari: This one is a little convoluted, so bear with me.

Right before Gendo’s meeting with Seele, there are two shots of Mari standing within range of the Tokyo-3 mirror buildings, staring at a flock of birds flying overhead.


It’s not immediately clear what purpose these shots serve. We already know Mari is in the city, since we saw her land. What’s established by having her stand there staring at birds?

In this short Mari sequence, the main elements are: Mari, the mirror buildings, and the flock of birds. The shot is framed so that only four mirror buildings (out of the six total) can be seen. Four mirrors? That’s very suspicious. If you’re thinking what I’m thinking, you’re thinking “Adams”. Making things more suspicious is that the birds are arcing through just one of these on their way toward Mari. In other words, one of the mirrors is “reflecting” the birds at Mari. If the mirrors represent the Adams, and one of these mirrors is “reflecting” winged imagery at Mari… well, it could be a way to convey the idea that she is contemplating her true self, and all without saying a single word.

A couple of other details add to the intrigue. First is Mari’s expression: she looks like she’s lost in deep thought. (The script does not describe her expression specifically, alas.) Another comes from the mirror buildings themselves. When the second of the two cuts begins, they are facing away from Mari completely. As the cut progresses, they have started to turn to face her, but the cut ends before Mari and the mirrors are facing each other directly.



This suggests, visually, that Mari is on the brink of an epiphany, but she’s not quite there. “Halfway to enlightenment”, you might say.

In the section on Asuka, I went over how a distorted mirror image was used to confront Asuka with her hidden past, in a follow-up to Rei’s line, “The Eva is a mirror that reflects your heart.” The sequence in question did not merely involve a “mirror”, but ethereal bird feathers pouring out from this reflection. This provides the context for interpreting what Mari is up to. Same as the Asuka scene, the one with Mari is — however opaquely — hinting at her past as a winged being. And here, the giant mirrors provide an appropriate sense of scale; the Adams were/are BIG.

If the scene’s placement feels completely random, it’s interesting to note that the big focus of the Seele meeting that follows is Mark.06 — the very Adams this analysis has identified with Mari. Mari is juxtaposed with a Mark.06-related scene later, too: Mari getting ready for her Eva-02 sortie is followed directly by Kaworu getting ready to sortie in Mark.06.

I've always wondered the purpose of that shot of Mari facing the mirrors was. I must say, should Final go in the direction all these predictions suggest, then it will be quite satisfactory to finally know the scenes reason to be

I read your detailed theory a few months ago, it's very interesting, but I don't agree 100%. Waiting the post about cycle's nature, there is a detail that you haven't taken into consideration but that could be an important clue: the color of the children's eyes.
Red eyes: Rei, Kaworu, Shinji
Green eyes: Mari, Asuka
Blue eyes: Asuka

RGB's eyes hypothesis
* Red eyes: Souls of Lilith and Adams
* Green eyes: Lose humanity
* Blue eyes: Angelic contamination

Rei and Kaworu respectively possess the soul of Lilith and the soul of Adams, the angelic nature prevails in them and therefore the eyes are normally red.

Shinji has the soul of Adams, however human nature prevails in him. The angelic part is awakened when Shinji experiences a very intense emotion. We notice that the eyes turn red before Shinji passes the Great Beyond Depth, so this event doesn't depend on Eva-01 but depends on Shinji.

Mari and Asuka have green eyes when they activate Eva-02's Beast mode, in 2.0 and 3.0 respectively. This method involves the loss of humanity due to the depth of the Plug.

Asuka's blue eye is caused by the contamination of the ninth angel, and to seal this power there is a bandage with glyphs.

Ayanami, Shikinami and Makinami may have similar surnames to suggest not a correlation with Adams, but a link with the laboratory in childhood.

Conclusion
Rei, Kaworu and Shinji are related to Lilith and the Adams. Mari has lost her humanity. Asuka has lost her humanity and she is infected by an angel. In Shin Evangelion I expect the Angel's power take over and Shinji will have to save Asuka. But honestly, without the final movie our hypotheses could be guided by cherry picking, and they aren't falsifiable. However, I will gladly read your opinion about this thing.

Taking into account the eyes stuff would make this more complete, yes. I hardly think it's "make it or break it", however; SO many other details of the films have been incorporated into this framework and it has held strong (adjusting readily to new demands over the past several months as BlueBasilisk and I have worked on it) that not knowing where one particular element fits often means "we're missing context that will be provided by the fourth film" (or simply "we have the required information but can't seen how all the pieces slot together yet"), as opposed to "the framework is wrong".

That said, I had been considering them in a broader "color theming" sort of way, as the films have a very obvious "Red vs. Blue/Green" motif going on that is evident all over the place. I didn't get too far with this, beyond the notion of what force the pilots let their powers service. That is, do they act on behalf of Eros/Creation or Thanatos/Destruction?

Red eyes - Shinji, Kaworu, Rei - all involved in Impacts
Green/Blue eyes - Mari and Asuka - dedicated to the fight against Impacts

I don't pretend that this is complete or anything; I wasn't satisfied enough with it to include it in the thread to start with.

Your hypothesis is fundamentally incomplete on its own, since it only takes into consideration the "awakened" eye colors, and not the default ones. In this sense, Rei and Kaworu form one very discrete group, and Shinji, Asuka, and Mari form another group. Shinji bridges the two, in other words. (You kinda sorta addressed this, but only kinda sorta.) This detail is clearly important: the former two are already "not human", and the latter three need to undergo a "loss of humanity". ("Loss of humanity" in the context of the films clearly does not refer to the green-eyed condition, and trying to limit such an important concept to only two of the pilots so that you have a convenient label for the green-eyed thing is misguided and, well, limiting.) Another interesting thing is that Rei is still the soul of Lilith, and Kaworu has a uniquely special connection to the Adams that the other three pilots lack. I've figured out what's going on with Kaworu (the "First Angel" he claims to be is still Adam, singular, which is not the fused being from Second Impact but something even older), but this will require the second thread to provide adequate context and explanation for.

Shinji's red eyes in "awakened mode" can be explained by the special link between "Luvah" and Lilith. I didn't get into this as much as I had intended, but I did at least get as far as explaining that this is the key to understanding Second Impact. (It's probably absolutely necessary for understanding the movies in general, to be honest.) "Luvah" internalized Lilith's core into itself and became an extension of Lilith, reflected in its current coloration (pale skin, red eyes); this hidden connection becomes manifest when Luvah's soul enters an awakened state (Rei and Shinji take on a very similar appearance in the spirit realm).

(Speaking of Second Impact, the "awakened eye colors" could tie in here, in their way. Four Adams, with two representing Thanatos (Adam/Urthona + Luvah) and two representing Eros (Tharmas + Urizen), exist in a state of balance. With the addition of a fifth factor, Lilith, the balance is disrupted and Thanatos becomes the prevalent force; disaster of course results.)

Asuka's eye being blue because of the 9th Angel has problems that were pointed out in the thread, and addressed by my propositions. You did not mention these problems nor offer your own solution; you simply defaulted to the same flawed hypothesis in common use, which I was trying to improve upon. (You haven't attempted to show where Mark.09, which suspiciously has blue core-like corrosion similar to the 9th Angel -- 09 and 9th, quite the coincidence there... -- fits in either.)

Thanks for the reply. But I didn't write the post to tell you that your theory is wrong because you didn't consider the "awakened eyes", I did it to offer you something that not having considered it can lead to other results, and therefore I wanted to ask you an opinion on how it could be integrated.
I wrote about cherry picking and falsifiability because waiting for the film the validity of our theories is limited to its internal consistency, while the film could change the cards on the table, showing that some details were more important than others.

Obviously in the post I have expressed only a part of the loss of humanity. I don't mean that lose the humanity is limited to green eyes, Shinji also loses it when the eyes turn red. And the effect caused is the stop of growth, i.e. the Eva's curse.
I have explained only the part relating to the "awakened eyes" because the eye is very important in NTE:
* The first phase of Buddhist awakening is the opening of the Dharma eye;
* The Impact vortex is like an eye (look for example Shinji's red eyes in 2.0, when they light up they are the similar to the vortex);
* In 3.0 there is an iris crater;

These details make me think that the eyes are the most important detail to consider. You say that the hypothesis is incomplete, but in my opinion it is not the quantity of details that supports a thesis, but the quality of these. In any case, I like the idea that awakening can color the individual's eyes according to what he wants to do: if he wants to destroy (Thanatos) his eyes will turn red, if he wants to protect (Eros) his eyes will turn green. Good idea! I keep thinking that Asuka and Mari aren't Adams, maybe the film will proved me wrong.
As for Asuka's blue eye under the bandage, I think the answer is implicit in Ritsuko's line: "but there is the chance her mind was infiltrated." For Occam's razor this is currently the simplest solution. For this reason I say that in Shin Eva Shinji will have to save Asuka, and will have to save her from the same enemy that had hit her in 2.0 but against whom Shinji had done nothing. It would be a nice symmetry.