Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only.

Moderator: Board Staff

bluekaterpillar
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 8
Joined: Jun 30, 2014
Gender: Male

Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby bluekaterpillar » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:44 am

I haven't seen Evangelion in several years, so I decided to binge the Netflix release.
Having been out of the Evangelion loop for awhile, I found myself getting lost following the plot.
I was especially lost with the differences between several of the characters' Human instrumentality/3rd impact plans.
I have a lot of questions, and I can't seem to find consistent, succinct answers online easily.
Forgive me if it seems I'm just asking you to explain the plot, but this stuff confused me back then and it still does now.

Broadly, what are the differences between Seele's, Gendo's, the Angels', Rei's (pre and post betraying Gendo), Kaworu's (pre and post letting Shinji kill him), and Yui's Human instrumentality/3rd impact plans?

Some more specific burning questions:
-What is the difference between what Seele wants and what Gendo wants? Why are they in conflict?
-As far as I can tell, an Angel coming into contact with Lilith merely causes a disaster like the 2nd impact, not human instrumentality. Why do the Angels' want this?
-How do the various attempts by the angels to converse with or take over pilots' minds and Evas contribute to their plan, if at all?
-Why do Gendo's and Seele's plans require the defeat of all the angels first?
-It seems Seele was happy with Kaworu causing 3rd impact as well as with Shinji & Rei causing 3rd impact. Why are these outcomes equivalent to them?
-The dummy plug seems important for Seele's MP Eva plan, but not for Gendo's. But Gendo seems to encourage their creation. Why?
-Is there any significance to all the Rei clones outside of creating Dummy Plugs?
-Why did Rei reject Gendo's plan in EoE? How does Rei's new plan differ from Gendo's, but conform with Seele's?
-By my understanding, Gendo has Adam's body, Kaworu has Adam's soul, Lilith's body in Nerv's possession, and Rei has Lilith's soul. What is each item's importance to each plan, and how did each person get each item?
-How is the Lance of Longinus important to Seele's plan and an obstacle in Gendo's plan?
-Why was Seele creating the MP Evas and desire the Lance of Longinus when their plan with Kaworu didn't seem to involve them?
-Which parts of the 2nd impact and the surrounding events was intended by Seele and which were accidental? What was their goal in researching and experimenting on Adam back in 2000?
-For the purposes of instrumentality, why is Eva01 from Lilith while the rest are from Adam, and why do the Evas need a human soul?
-In EoE, it appears that Seele is capable of creating other Lance of Longinus. So, why do they have such attention on the original?

Lots of questions, but probably a lot of overlap in answers. Thank you for your patience.
-bluekaterpillar

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Imapct Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:07 pm

Broadly, what are the differences between Seele's, Gendo's, the Angels', Rei's (pre and post betraying Gendo), Kaworu's (pre and post letting Shinji kill him), and Yui's Human instrumentality/3rd impact plans?


SEELE's goal is to merge all human souls into a single consciousness that would be free of despair, loneliness, and suffering (and also any other experiences at all).

Gendo's goal was simply to reunite with Yui.

The Angels didn't really care about Instrumentality, and were trying to reunite with Adam so that they could reboot the planet as an Angelic ecosystem.

Rei's pre-betrayal goals were to help Gendo, then to give Shinji his wish.

Kaworu's goal was that of the other Angel's, but then his respect and love for Lilinkind let him accept death.

Yui wanted to usurp control of Instrumentality so that she could cancel it out. Everything she ever did was basically to stop SEELE, with the side-benefit of becoming a god-like entity like Adam and Lilith so she could journey to the stars and perhaps carry the torch of mankind.

-What is the difference between what Seele wants and what Gendo wants? Why are they in conflict?


It's kind of hard to reunite with Yui if individuality doesn't exist. Gendo's apparent end-victory is to go into space in Unit 01 with yui as one of its resident souls, and (if a PSP game alternate ending is to be believed), take at least Shinji and Rei with them. Yui wants Shinji to live a human life, so that's an issue.

-As far as I can tell, an Angel coming into contact with Lilith merely causes a disaster like the 2nd impact, not human instrumentality. Why do the Angels' want this?


The Angels thought Lilith WAS Adam; they can't tell the 'auras' apart, and NERV used Lilith as bait for this exact reason. Kaworu was unable to tell the difference until he was right in front of her, and he has Adam's soul.

-How do the various attempts by the angels to converse with or take over pilots' minds and Evas contribute to their plan, if at all?


It doesn't, really. The Angels do what they do because they want to return to their mother and escape loneliness. Invading the minds of the pilots is the only way they can communicate and understand them. They're trying to escape loneliness.

-Why do Gendo's and Seele's plans require the defeat of all the angels first?


So that they don't interfere with their unpredictable, fairly godlike powers.

-It seems Seele was happy with Kaworu causing 3rd impact as well as with Shinji & Rei causing 3rd impact. Why are these outcomes equivalent to them?


They sent Kaworu to die; they had no plan for him actually succeeding. He was tricked and he realized that. Shinji's suicidal tantrum had him initially agreeing with SEELE's goals ("Everybody just die!") so SEELE figured "hey, cool."

-The dummy plug seems important for Seele's MP Eva plan, but not for Gendo's. But Gendo seems to encourage their creation. Why?


He needs to pretend to be on SEELE's side until the moment of betrayal, or they can just replace him.

-Is there any significance to all the Rei clones outside of creating Dummy Plugs?


Under no circumstances can Gendo lose Rei, so whenever she dies he loads her soul into a new clone. His emotional control over her is vital so that when she returns to Lilith, the godlike entity will grant his wish.

-Why did Rei reject Gendo's plan in EoE? How does Rei's new plan differ from Gendo's, but conform with Seele's?


Rei realized that, contrary to what she thought her whole life, Gendo didn't really care about her as her own person, but as a substitute for his wife and as a tool to his ends. Shinji's the only person who really shows her sincere compassion and is concerned for her as a person, so she decided to use her godhood to make him happy.

-By my understanding, Gendo has Adam's body, Kaworu has Adam's soul, Lilith's body in Nerv's possession, and Rei has Lilith's soul. What is each item's importance to each plan, and how did each person get each item?


The GeoFront was built in the Black Moon, Lilith's starcraft, so it was always there. Gendo recovered Adam's body from Antartica and had it delivered to him by Kaji. The embryo's presence is why the ships were attacked during Unit 02's transfer to Japan. Kaworu and Rei are artificial beings created with their respective souls. Rei was created through an attempt to recover Yui during a Contact Experiment with Yui and Unit 01, and since Yui refused to come out, it seems they accidentally yoinked Lilith's soul inside of a Yui clone. Kaworu might have been created through a similar incident, since Second Impact was the result of a human Contact Experiment with Adam.

As for their importance; Adam and Lilith coming together is what allows for Godhood to go down, through the union of the Fruits of Life and Knowledge. I suppose only technically the bodies are necessary, but the souls might allow finer control since they know how it all works instinctually. Thus Gendo's plan to control the soul of Lilith through Rei.

-How is the Lance of Longinus important to Seele's plan and an obstacle in Gendo's plan?


The Lance of Longinus is a device that is capable of stopping, halting, and thus controlling, Seeds of Life.

-Why was Seele creating the MP Evas and desire the Lance of Longinus when their plan with Kaworu didn't seem to involve them?


Again, Kaworu was on a suicide mission.

-Which parts of the 2nd impact and the surrounding events was intended by Seele and which were accidental? What was their goal in researching and experimenting on Adam back in 2000?


Their original plan was to communicate their wish to Adam, so that Second Impact would have been their intended Third Impact. Adam was unstable, however, and imploded.

-For the purposes of instrumentality, why is Eva01 from Lilith while the rest are from Adam, and why do the Evas need a human soul?


Unit 01 was born from Lilith instead of Adam, quite literally. Yui's Contact Experiment was made during the period where Unit 01's body was still connected to Lilith's, even. Thus, Unit 01 can be used as a substitute for Lilith if need be. Evas need a human soul because only souls can produce AT Fields.

-In EoE, it appears that Seele is capable of creating other Lance of Longinus. So, why do they have such attention on the original?


These are imperfect clones that are suitable as weapons, but would be insufficient for the Lance's more esoteric abilities.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

bluekaterpillar
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 8
Joined: Jun 30, 2014
Gender: Male

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Imapct Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby bluekaterpillar » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:27 pm

Thanks for the reply! I have a few followup questions:

Thus, Unit 01 can be used as a substitute for Lilith if need be.


The Instrumentality in EoE seem to involve 2 beings: Eva01 and Giant Rei (which comprises Lilith's body & soul, as well as Adam's body & soul?). If Eva01 was meant as a backup substitute for Lilith's body, why was Lilith's body still utilized during EoE instrumentality, and what would an Eva01-less instrumentality look like?

The Lance of Longinus is a device that is capable of stopping, halting, and thus controlling, Seeds of Life


But what is the Lance actually doing during instrumentality? How is the ability to stop and halt seeds of life providing this function? Why does Shinji breaking(?) it stop instrumentality?

They sent Kaworu to die; they had no plan for him actually succeeding.


I remember reading most of what was said here elsewhere, but this one is actually new to me. I always thought sending Kaworu was an attempt by Seele to achieve their version of instrumentality despite Gendo's interference, that their deception of Kaworu wasn't merely to kill him but to have his actions cause their Instrumentality rather than his 3rd impact, and Kaworu realizing it was he was looking at Lilith was him realizing he would cause instrumentality rather than impact. I was just confused how Kaworu coming into contact with Lilith's body would accomplish instrumentality.
But now I have to ask: Why did Kaworu think Seele was on his side? Was sending Kaworu to infiltrate Nerv really the best way to kill him? Don't Seele outright tell Kaworu that Adam's body is in Gendo?
Maybe I need to watch that episode more closely.

As for their importance; Adam and Lilith coming together is what allows for Godhood to go down, through the union of the Fruits of Life and Knowledge. I suppose only technically the bodies are necessary, but the souls might allow finer control since they know how it all works instinctually. Thus Gendo's plan to control the soul of Lilith through Rei.


So in summary:
Angel + Adam Body = Impact (the Angels' and Kaworu's intention)
Adam body & soul + Human = impact (2nd impact cause?)
Adam body + Lilith body + Adam soul + Lilith soul = controllable intrumentality (Seele's and Geno's intention, for different outcomes)
Angel + Lilith Body = ? (the actual outcome if the angels succeeded)
Human + Lilith Body = ?
Am I missing any?

These are imperfect clones that are suitable as weapons, but would be insufficient for the Lance's more esoteric abilities.


So did Seele know that their actions in EoE would result in the true Lance returning?
-bluekaterpillar

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:45 am

The Instrumentality in EoE seem to involve 2 beings: Eva01 and Giant Rei (which comprises Lilith's body & soul, as well as Adam's body & soul?). If Eva01 was meant as a backup substitute for Lilith's body, why was Lilith's body still utilized during EoE instrumentality, and what would an Eva01-less instrumentality look like?


Again, Rei is granting Shinji's wish, and he's inside Unit 01. SEELE was trying to use Unit 01 for their own scenario and then Rei happened and they went "Well this is fine, too." Remember, what ultimately went down was no one's exact scenario.

But what is the Lance actually doing during instrumentality? How is the ability to stop and halt seeds of life providing this function? Why does Shinji breaking(?) it stop instrumentality?


It turns Unit 01 into a "Tree of Life", and... honestly I can't tell you what the fuck is going on during that sequence but the Mass Anti-AT Fields of the MP Evas caused it to act as if Unit 01 was a Seed, bound it up, and I guess that made Lilith 'notice' Unit 01 and interact with it like an equal, almost? Shinji was able to preserve his individuality for like all of Instrumentality.

I remember reading most of what was said here elsewhere, but this one is actually new to me. I always thought sending Kaworu was an attempt by Seele to achieve their version of instrumentality despite Gendo's interference, that their deception of Kaworu wasn't merely to kill him but to have his actions cause their Instrumentality rather than his 3rd impact, and Kaworu realizing it was he was looking at Lilith was him realizing he would cause instrumentality rather than impact. I was just confused how Kaworu coming into contact with Lilith's body would accomplish instrumentality.
But now I have to ask: Why did Kaworu think Seele was on his side? Was sending Kaworu to infiltrate Nerv really the best way to kill him? Don't Seele outright tell Kaworu that Adam's body is in Gendo?
Maybe I need to watch that episode more closely.


SEELE lied to Kaworu and told him that they wanted him to reboot the world as an Angelic one and that this was humanity's desire. They explicitly sent him to get killed, after using him as much as they could. He drained a lot of NERV's resources and softened them up for SEELE's final attack, and also mentally broke Shinji, which was an unexpected bonus that ultimately caused them to almost get what they wanted.

So in summary:
Angel + Adam Body = Impact (the Angels' and Kaworu's intention)
Adam body & soul + Human = impact (2nd impact cause?)
Adam body + Lilith body + Adam soul + Lilith soul = controllable intrumentality (Seele's and Geno's intention, for different outcomes)
Angel + Lilith Body = ? (the actual outcome if the angels succeeded)
Human + Lilith Body = ?
Am I missing any?


For the record, SEELE had no intention of using Rei and didn't seem to realize her importance until things were finally going down.

An Angel and a Lilith body would still probably cause some sort of Impact event; there's a PSP game ending where an Angel reaches Lilith, Rei shows up, and they all merge, and then there's some cryptic stuff about everyone sleeping forever. Which might just be 'bad end' justification, and Rei's interference muddies the water,but for the most part the upper echelon of NERV thought using Lilith as bait was fairly safe.

A human and Lilith's body wouldn't really do anything. It's already a Lilin biosphere and humans don't have S2 Engines anyway.

So did Seele know that their actions in EoE would result in the true Lance returning?


It was exactly their intent with the MP Evas.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23554
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:53 am

View Original Postbluekaterpillar wrote:I have a lot of questions, and I can't seem to find consistent, succinct answers online easily.

And you won't, because none exist. Any answer that any single person gives you -- unless it comes with a near-endless amount of caveats and disclaimers -- is going to be fundamentally incomplete. You basically have to do research on it and come to your own personalized conclusions.

This forum gives you a goldmine of angles to look at and stuff to think about, should you choose to dive into the archives, which I would recommend if this is a subject that interests you.

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 5088
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:23 pm

Nah Gendo actually does have a separate plan, and does care about his plan - Just look at how he talks about it in ep 25 ("No, it's not a return to nothingness... because it's the only way to live") or how he disparages SEELE's version in EoE ("Death creates nothing!")

His goals are in alignment because his worldview and his experiences are related in their origins and there are most likely some convenient rationalizations going on but he really believes in his plan and that it's the only way to "save" humanity.
He has a darkly cynical view of humanity and the world in part certainly because he couldn't connect with anyone and then lost his beloved wife.

In his mind "Instrumentalityfy humanity, grab Yui" is a "slay dragon, rescue princess" kinda deal. It's not in conflict to him.

So to sum up:

Adam, Lillith and the LOL are basically terraforming devices that can be used to rearrange/ reset life on the planet.

SEELE: Fulfill the prophecy, merge all of humanity, destroy them to create a higher lifeform -

GENDO: Rewrite the Prophecy (joining Adam & Lillith like neither SEELE nor the FAR ever intended), merge all humanity, continue to exist as soup (or inside EVA 01?), which he believes to be superior. The Ikaris get to be a happy soup family.

YUI: Technically fulfill the prophecy, then immediately undo instrumentality (As she says in 21', she sees the EVAs NERV and GEHIRN as "means to avert that tragedy") quibble out of the apocalypse, then go to space - This is what winds up happening.

THE ANGELS: They want the planet for themselves, at least the ones who fought with humans instead of trying to contact them first. Basically press the reset-button on Earth. This happened in a blotched, short-range manner in Second Impact - An area was rendered inhabitable to humans, Lillith-based life was eliminated down to microorganisms, and a bunch of angels were spawned. Angel TI would probably be like that except no humans survive.

KAWORU: "Supposed" to implement the Angel plan but used by SEELE to do their plan. Doesn't care much for either because as an individual, he actually likes humans and would like to choose his own destiny. Initially seeks out Shinji because he views him as another person with a "predestined fate", but then he immediately likes him insta-crush/ inta-BFF levels and that proves to be the catalyst for him to act on his sympathy towards humans like "No, screw it, no way I'm wiping out this human, he's adorable and must be protected" He had a choice between several bad options but at least he wanted to make the choice himself.

Misato and Kaji: Would like none of that Instrumentality bullshit please, trying to uncover the conspiracy

Rei: Follows Gendo (it's important to note that it's a cult-like devotion not robotic obedience as often assumed - she'll punch you if you badmouth him) but kinda grows to have doubts about his plan and his intentions toward her. Eventually decides to ditch him both to go back to Lillith and to help out Shinji. Regarding the actual outcome she seems to have been ambivalent thats probably why she did what most ppl do when they can't decide and went to ask her friends. Or like, her one friend, showing up as a giant floating winged space entity that has him screaming on sight. She comments on how "the world is full of emptiness" etc but you also get the sense that she gives Shinji counterarguments ("Then what is your heart for?")

Fuyutsuki prefers Yuis plan but likes Gendo's way more than SEELE's so he helps him, but it's a "lesser evil" kinda thing he finds much of what Gendo does distasteful
Last edited by Kendrix on Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23554
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:39 pm

@Kendrix: In terms of Gendo's plans... The movie is a bit subtle about it, but when he and Seele have their final talk together, Gendo is at one point repudiated with the response, "We have no intention of abandoning human form simply to enter the Ark of Eva." Meaning, the Ark is what Gendo wants, and Seele is saying "Yeah, no thanks". Later, Fuyutsuki refers back to this, when he asks "Will Eva-01 become an ark for humanity to ride out the nothingness of Third Impact, or the devil that destroys us all?" The latter is Seele's outcome, obviously; the former is the Yui-Gendo-Fuyu plan. An "ark" is a temporary refuge, so the intention here is for Human Instrumentality to be, at best, a transient event, not one that permanently merges everyone together.

But for his own part, Gendo probably intends to hang out in Eva-01's core for the forseable future, yeah. It might not just be him, either. Remember that photo that foreshadows Shinji's reunion with the cast (with Rei mostly obscured)? There are four notable omissions: Yui, Kaworu, Gendo, and Fuyutsuki. Gendo and Fuyutsuki are both the sorts of people who would follow Yui to the ends of the universe, so them hitching a ride makes sense. Kaworu? I guess it's like that Eva2 ending. The Angels need to get off Earth, and that's exactly where Yui is going.

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 5088
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:46 pm

This might just be Fuyutsuki hoping that Yui's plan will go off.

See the edit - the games at least imply that fusion with EVA 01 was a vital component hence he protects it and positions it advantageously above all else (though it's also bc Yui is in there...)

As for everyone's final fate and the photo you're extrapolating a lot from that it's definitely possible/ a valid interpretation but not a "necessary conclusion"

The Photo doesn't show all of humanity - It shows Shinji's social circle the people he actually wants to do more human stuff with, the ones who would motivate him. - He barely ever spoke to Fuyutsuki in the og continuity (I think once in episode 9?) and Yui's farewell speech seems to imply that she went alone ("[the soul inside EVA 01] will be lonely, but it'll be eternal proof that manking existed")
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23554
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:15 pm

It's not just Fuyutsuki. I already mentioned Seele repudiating Gendo by saying they aren't interested in the Ark scenario. It is very much a Gendo thing, or else there would be no reason to include this exchange.

For me, the argument that the photo represents Shinji's "social circle" or just "the people he actually wants to see again" doesn't really hold up. The Nerv technicians are more important to Shinji than Kaworu? Since when? They talked to him onscreen maybe once, same as Fuyutsuki. The fact that Rei is mostly hidden also strongly suggests that the photo is communicating something about people's spiritual status as well; Rei is depicted that way because she will be around in some form, watching, but she won't be like the others. On that basis, I think it's fair to make extrapolations for the people who are missing altogether.

As for Yui's farewell speech, it doesn't actually exclude the possibility of other souls coming along in some manner. It emphasizes that proving humanity exists forever requires that at least one soul continue to brave on to keep the Eva going. We're hearing a flashback, keep in mind. Yui could only speak for herself, and she was okay with the possibility of being completely alone because she thought it was worth it. Since then, all humans have been glommed together inside Eva-01 for a little while, and if any of them wanted to go with her -- in, say, her Chamber of Guf, which is ideal for such purposes -- something could be worked out easily enough. Though, on that note, we have no strong indication that carrying a bunch of disembodied souls around in your Chamber of Guf through the emptiness of space for god knows how long makes for an especially lively social experience. Were Lilith and Adam lonely, despite having countless souls with them on a technical basis?

Another thing: Gendo's fate implies quite directly that he ends up inside Yui. I mean, she literally eats him. Part of his body is just GONE after she disappears. The last time Yui ate something, it became a part of her, and Gendo's death visually references the berserk Eva-01 of episode 19 quite explicitly. Show, don't tell.

Also, this:

Angel TI would probably be like that except no humans survive.

Since you reference the games, they actually do depict what the Angel's Third Impact might be like. We don't survive in our current forms, exactly, but we are implied to be reborn as Angels.

eldomtom2
Adam
Posts: 70
Joined: Jun 14, 2018
Gender: Male

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby eldomtom2 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:57 pm

There is the whole Oedipus complex thing going on, which makes Gendo's fate very uncertain.

StrokeMeGoat
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 28
Posts: 150
Joined: Jan 30, 2016
Location: Indiana
Gender: Male

Re: Explain Each Characters' Instrumentality/3rd Impact Plan

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:08 am

I may edit this post or make another after taking some time to read the responses so far, but here's my take:

SEELE: SEELE's plan involves killing off the old Gods and merging all of humanity into a single amalgamated being that becomes God as the artificially induced next (and presumably final) step in human evolution. The result is the loss of all ego boundaries, and therefore, individuality. They claim it will be an end to all sin and suffering (in truth, they leave out that it will be the end of human life as anybody knows it, which Gendo seems to recognize--it will effectively result in death/a return to nothingness for humanity at large). It will be the divine unification and sanctification of all humans, transformed into an uncontested (following the death of the old Gods, Adam and Lilith + the Angels depending on how they're viewed) all powerful and eternal being that stands as an endless testament to human existence. This plan will be achieved through the purification of souls via the SEELE controlled initiation of Third Impact resulting in the indiscriminate death of all mankind.

Gendo: Gendo's plan was to use Rei as a medium for the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith, the idea being he would also be merged and become the new God that resulted from that fusion. Yui had already achieved God-hood through the ingestion and successful incorporation of the S2 engine within herself as a Lilith-born FoK-possessing Eva (human). Whether or not the rest of humanity would be absorbed into Unit-01 or would simply be destroyed as a result of Third Impact is something we can only speculate at. Regardless, the result would be the eternal reunification with his beloved Yui as two omnipotent, immortal Gods. The need for he himself to become a God is simple: the survival of his psyche/ego.

Gendo's plans seems to have the most open-ended possibilities to it. Would Gendo, as a God, use omnipotence to create more familiar human-like vessels for he and Yui? Would he restore the rest of humanity? Would he allow for the rest of humanity's souls to take refuge within Unit-01 or even take them within himself? The only concrete answers we have is that he wishes for eternal life at his wife's side as two immortal Gods.

Yui: Yui's plan had the most uncertain result because she required a number of actors to make the proper and expected decisions for her based on how she'd assumed they'd react. She had to account for and assume SEELE's actions, Gendo's actions (as well as how he'd react to her being absorbed and choosing to remain within the Eva), that NERV would actually successfully defeat the Angels, Rei's actions based on a hope she'd develop a bond with Shinji, and then ultimately Shinji himself (and that he'd actually choose life as human beings rather than essentially being dead). It's also possible she had contact with, or at least knowledge of Kaworu at some level given her position and was able to predict his actions as well.

Ultimately, what she desired for was the elimination of the impending threat to humanity and its extinction that the Angels and Adam represented, as well as those presented by SEELE and Gendo and their plans for humanity's future. Essentially, she desired for the survival of her son and mankind, and the elimination of those with the greatest power to threaten that survival. So, she used SEELE as a means to destroy the Angels, used Gendo to fuel a hasty arms race that would damage each other's abilities to successfully initiate Third Impact and Human Instrumentality on their own terms, and used Rei and Shinji (and to an extent, arguably Kaworu) to reverse the extinction of mankind after their subsequent annihilation from the seemingly unavoidable Third Impact. Her desire, if stated most simply, was for her son to be capable of deciding his own future and hopefully to live on in order to find his own happiness.

Of course, I almost left out that she desired to become an immortal God that will stand as a testament to man's existence for all time. Kind of throws into question how pure her motives were... whether the results happened to be the convenient sprinkles on top or whatever. There are few motivations for becoming an immortal God that seem anything other than selfish, so it's really difficult to say here. I suppose the litmus test here would be to ask her if there were a plan whose means didn't involve her coming an immortal supreme being that existed and could achieve the same result, would she be just as happy or likely to choose that method instead? Doesn't really matter I suppose, it would appear her plan was mutually beneficial for her and humanity at the expense of some extreme trauma for all the parties involved (probably the entire world, even).


Return to “Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests