Avant1 Ver0706 Kaworu Tangent

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:31 pm

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:I think Gendo and Mark.09 just had a good timing, if Shinji had known more than he should have, Gendo would have likely brainwashed and erased his memories in order to make him easier to manipulate.

I highly doubt that Kaworu would had accepted that. For all his more and more obvious misleading of Shinji, the one thing clear is that he loves him and would never physically harm him.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:39 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I highly doubt that Kaworu would had accepted that. For all his more and more obvious misleading of Shinji, the one thing clear is that he loves him and would never physically harm him.


I'm not sure if we can call it love, he's obsessed with an idealised version of Shinji in his head and though he firmly believes that leading him into Instrumentality is the right thing to do, he has no qualms about manipulating him into it and even seems okay with generating even more suffering for Shinji while he's at it, though he doesn't seem to realize it. He has never asked Shinji what he actually wants, he has decided if for himself. I think he is so centered on that idealization that he values it more than the real Shinji, and of course, it blinds him to what Shinji actually needs to do to be happy, namely, facing reality. Thematically it is made clear why Kaworu is wrong about all this, and why it's the sort of thing Shinji needs to outgrow.

And if Reichu's theories prove correct, then he also has his own somewhat selfish reasons to get Shinji to accept Instrumentality, which also allows Kaworu himself to return to an original state he was happier with, again without asking Shinji about it.

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby Giji Shinka » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:16 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I highly doubt that Kaworu would had accepted that. For all his more and more obvious misleading of Shinji, the one thing clear is that he loves him and would never physically harm him.

If Shinji knew what Kaworu was really up to (we don't know what Kaworu's plan was with the spears yet, but it likely wasn't something that would have benefited Wille and the rest of the world), he may have agreed to brainwash Shinji.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby one-eyed » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:55 am

ElMariachi wrote: I highly doubt that Kaworu would had accepted that. For all his more and more obvious misleading of Shinji, the one thing clear is that he loves him and would never physically harm him.


Giji Shinka wrote: If Shinji knew what Kaworu was really up to (we don't know what Kaworu's plan was with the spears yet, but it likely wasn't something that would have benefited Wille and the rest of the world), he may have agreed to brainwash Shinji.



Technically, what Kaworu was doing to Shinji in Q can be classified as brainwashing, it's a classic case. Take a look at these two Youtube videos, but I'll warn you, if you watch them, you'll never see Kaworu the same way, the lost innocence cannot be recovered. :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxPZcGEWiB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDSKsuz9Hcs

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:20 am

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:Technically, what Kaworu was doing to Shinji in Q can be classified as brainwashing, it's a classic case. Take a look at these two Youtube videos, but I'll warn you, if you watch them, you'll never see Kaworu the same way, the lost innocence cannot be recovered. :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxPZcGEWiB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDSKsuz9Hcs


ElMariachi wrote the original thread dealing with analysing all of that back in 2013:

https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14454 ... ntentions/

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:14 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I can't get behind the idea of Kaworu secretly being evil btw. I don't know what that would add to the story, since we experience Kaworu through Shinji's eyes.

"Evil" is an oversimplification. The NTE version is a much-needed response to the idealization of the Shinji-Kaworu relationship from NGE, taken to its logical, horrible conclusion. "Experiencing Kaworu through Shinji's eyes" is something the film primes the viewer to do, somewhat, but ultimately we aren't Shinji; we have more information that he does and we can see a much bigger picture than he can. In this case, we can see that Kaworu is not all that he seems. While his intentions may be perfectly earnest, he is also the sort of person who is so convinced of his own "rightness" that he would never consider that what he's doing might be wrong (at least, not for the same reasons as someone with a less questionable moral compass), and that's why he resorts so casually to manipulation and deceit.

I've recently written about this here (under "T-Shirt of Deception") and here (under "Kaworu's Motivations"), though the full thread is required for proper context.

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:47 pm

/\ Eva 3.0 is very effective in putting the audience through Shinji's shoes and his perspective. It just so happens that Shinji's perspective is childish, biased and limited. He wants the world to revolve around him. And Kaworu actively enables all of that, he even infers that Shinji is at fault for everything, when if you take even a cursory look at things it's clear this is not the case. You can look at pretty much any dialogue exchanged by characters in a scene where Shinji isn't present or listening and it's alluded too. Everyone knows about Seele. Everyone knows that Shinji is a gullible and dangerous child, but ultimately still a child. Everyone except Shinji, and the portions of the audience that over identify with him and his selfish desires. You have to break beyond his little bubble in order to better understand the movie. Even thinking that he's the only one with any responsibility and the one that has to fix everything is just him thinking the world should revolve around him even more. And then Kaworu offers him a magical, quick-fix solution that allows him to just erase his mistakes without needing to change anything about himself. Unlike Mari and Asuka, Kaworu has done nothing over 14 years but obsess over Shinji, he hasn't grown, he hasn't changed except into further delusion. And it goes wrong, again, and Shinji blames himself for everything, again. Read Reichu's threads and the other one I've linked, particularly. You start to understand that 3.0 has an entire logic that's not readily apparent.

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Avant1 Ver0706 Kaworu Tangent

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Postby ArvisTaljik » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:14 pm

For as manipulative as Kaworu is in 3.33, I can't help but feel that he's also being manipulated/lied to/misled in return.

As Unit-13's mission progresses, he states that he has a bad feeling, that the spears don't "feel right" and that something about the whole situation isn't adding up. It ends with him apologizing to Shinji about being unable to give him the happiness that he deserves and then *pop* goes his melon.

Kaworu is as much a victim of lies in NTE as he is a perpetrator of them himself. Karma is a b!tch. :uhh:

Having said that, he is as much responsible for Shinji's state of being at the end of the movie and where he'll be in 3.0+1.0 as anyone else is. Maybe we'll get a Kaworu flashback/cameo that'll help explain his side of things a bit, maybe even a brief glimpse into Shinji's mind on the whole matter as well. Here's hoping.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby writer » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:33 pm

View Original PostArvisTaljik wrote:Maybe we'll get a Kaworu flashback/cameo that'll help explain his side of things a bit, maybe even a brief glimpse into Shinji's mind on the whole matter as well. Here's hoping.

If we look on the moon during NTE we can see that there are multiple "coffins" that Kaworu's are born from. There are 4 in line of sight when he emerges, but many more after. It's not unlikely that he'll be reborn entirely and come back with a revised understanding of the entire situation.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:40 pm

View Original PostArvisTaljik wrote:For as manipulative as Kaworu is in 3.33, I can't help but feel that he's also being manipulated/lied to/misled in return.

Kaworu states flat-out that he's been played by Gendo. The question is whether this is actually a bad thing. :devil:

Maybe we'll get a Kaworu flashback/cameo that'll help explain his side of things a bit, maybe even a brief glimpse into Shinji's mind on the whole matter as well.

Kaworu claims that he and Shinji will meet again, and when Mari ejects Shinji from Eva-13 there's a quick visual of Kaworu receding into the distance. I.e., Kaworu is still present in some form inside the Eva, and since Eva-13 has a future role to play in Gendo's plans that's how they will "meet again". Fun, huh?

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:16 pm

He doesn't say the happiness he deserves, he says the happiness he wished for. Kaworu as that very moment deciding what Shinji wants, instead of, you know, Shinji actually chosen it himself. Even if Kaworu has been misled, he has very consciously chosen to lie to Shinji, and there is good reason to believe all of this was his idea in the first place. Evangelion simply doesn't have any perfect pure good character and Kaworu is no exception, in fact, his point as a character is how nobody is like that and how Shinji waiting for that notion will only lead to more disappointment. His 3.0 self is far less neutral and much more deliberate and obsessive in his actions, a far darker revision of his character. Hell, the fact that he's so sure he'll meet again is yet another sign of this: because he's sure Shinji HAS to accept Instrumentality, he's sure Shinji will run away again. He's sure Shinji will fail.

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:19 pm

I'd say Q Kaworu is even more of a "pure" person than his NGE self. I really don't see how he manipulated Shinji.
And I doubt he had knowledge of the core-reverse technology.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:24 pm

There is no purity in Eva, dude. Whatsoever. Do read those threads. Literally every other single character shows knowledge that Kaworu neglects to mention to Shinji, he uses extremely specific language and all events fit in perfectly for his agenda. For instance, he says Shinji was "the catalyst" for Near Third Impact. Which is true, but says nothing about everything else that happened afterwards, the core material, the floating pyramid, the war, the NERV/Wille split, etc. Because of this all happened after... Kaworu himself stopped Near Third Impact. All of that stuff happened while Shinji was dormant but Kaworu was there himself to see it and likely was responsible for a big part of it. He is referred to as "Seele's Boy" by Gendo and Kozo, but neglects to even mention Seele to Shinji, even though even Asuka knows of them now, and instead ascribes everything to NERV. Shinji just fills in the gaps himself because of his tendency to blame himself for everything and also think that the world has to revolve around him, even though nobody actually blames him for all of that and we have good material reason contradicting it. Kaworu just gives him half-truths and omissions and leads him along.

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby ErgoProxy » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:29 pm

kuribo-04 wrote:I'd say Q Kaworu is even more of a "pure" person than his NGE self. I really don't see how he manipulated Shinji.

He did it by telling Shinji truth, sheer truth and only truth, but not the whole truth. Carefully prepared set of truths can lead a naive person anywhere a skilled manipulator wants, because an incomplete picture defines incomplete set of decisions to be possibly made by that person.

On the other hand - hell, this is Shinji. He can barely withstand the set of truths he's fed with by Kaworu. There is no guarantee that he would be able to carry on with all the knowledge Kaworu has. I can bet our walking anomaly is aware of this and he simply tries to be careful in what he discloses to our sissy-boy, who was never smart enough to survive on his own in the cogs of his father's inhuman machine.

Think for example that WILLE was right with their hesitation to call BM-03 by the name of Ikari Shinji, because BM-03 is only a biologically perfect copy with false memories implanted. I don't give five bucks for BM-03's sanity after learning such truth.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 pm

It’s weird how the fandom was willing to hang Misato for being too busy keeping all of Wille alive and fighting to tell Shinji things, but were giving Kaworu a pass for misguiding Shinji simply because we finally got to see him for more than 8 whole consecutive minutes.

Like, what? Did she not smile enough or something? I know a few of those bemoaning that were obnoxious in other ways, so many of them are now probably too banned/bored for this forum anymore, but still.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:48 pm

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:He did it by telling Shinji truth, sheer truth and only truth, but not the whole truth. Carefully prepared set of truths can lead a naive person anywhere a skilled manipulator wants, because an incomplete picture defines incomplete set of decisions to be possibly made by that person..


About 5% of the truth, maybe 10. Thing is, all of this is ultimately to get Shinji to go along with his magical quick fix solution to allow Shinji to run away from his problems without changing anything about himself, taking risks or actually facing responsibility for what he did do. And we even have reason to believe that Kaworu has his own reasons to do all of this besides "helping Shinji, he's helping himself. Had Kaworu told him that pulling the spears would inevitably cause an Impact no matter what, Shinji would have never gone along with it, because this is something Shinji would never accept, but Kaworu was okay with hiding this fact until it actually happened. It's something even Asuka knew, which she directly asks Shinji about and he refuses to believe it, he doesn't even process it. That's not helping, at all. I'm sure Kaworu believes it's the right thing, just like Seele themselves believed in the series that humanity must let go of individuality and reality, but the story makes it very clear that Kaworu (and Seele) is wrong and he isn't helping Shinji at all.

And about Wille, yeah. They have full reason to treat Shinji the way they do yet they still tried to be professional about it and explain things to him, only for Nerv to attack and Rei Q to show up at the most opportune moment. Even thinking that they hate him is just Shinji projecting his self hate AND self importance onto everything, and far too much of the audience buys into this. Because, again, the story makes it clear Shinji is wrong.

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby Giji Shinka » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:29 am

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:and far too much of the audience buys into this.

It's actually pretty impressive how Anno managed to make a lot of the audience buy into this, I read discussions about 3.0 quite often on other sites and people still believe these surface level "facts" about the near 3rd impact and other things.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:38 am

I wonder how much of this was deliberately planned, or if it just worked too well. It seems to me that Anno is going to use 3.0+1.0 to expose and deconstruct all of this just like 2.0 was believed by many to be Eva recognising Rei as nothing more than the perfect moe waifu, only for that to be thrown out of the window later. I've even seen professional reviewers confused by this: in most cases they didn't exactly get enamoured with Kaworu so much as they thought that the things he said didn't make much sense or that the movie was inconsistent. Hell, "inconsistency" is something I hear being used to describe 3.0 all the time. I don't even blame most people because most people have grown used to media and particularly anime ABSOLUTELY having perfect pure characters that revolve around the protagonist and there being nothing wrong with that as far as the narrative is concerned. Just look at all those bullshit comparisons with Homura.

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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby LightDragonman » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:19 am

What's so wrong with Homura from Madoka Magica exactly?

For that matter if the audience is supposed to be placed in Shinji's shoes and he is the main character of the story and the one whose development is the most important, why wouldn't the viewer buy into the character of Kaworu, given his strong connection with him in 3.33? The character is pretty much portrayed as being an extremely loving and caring individual, whose death was entirely because of Shinji's actions, so it makes sense that many viewers would trust what he says. If he was meant to be untrustworthy, then the limited perspective of the film prevents that from clearly coming across, which may be why viewers are confused by it. While it allows the viewer to feel like Shinji, it does so at the cost of coherence. Like, I get what the film was going for, but it clashes with viewpoint of Shinji that the film wants the audience to see the narrative through. It's like it can't make up its mind as to whether it wants to be a film purely about Shinji and have the audience relate to him and his emotions, or a more distant film where the audience is able to distance themselves from the main character and focus more on the setting. Hence some of the confusion, as everything and everyone in the story that revolves mainly around Shinji is bad and needs to be rejected, yet we are still supposed to place ourselves in his shoes and relate to him.

If the message is that not everything in the world revolves around a single person and things that do are unhealthy and need to be discarded, then the films haven't really done a good job at communicating that, minus maybe Kaworu dying because he wanted to bring Shinji happiness. Heck, the idea that Rei in the second film was just a shallow waifu character and that she's actually supposed to be the soulless entity that Rei Q is in 3.33 because she no longer does things for Shinji's sake I also find to be incredibly flawed in terms of logic. I saw her relationship with Shinji as her, through her interactions with him, regaining her humanity and learning to care for others again. Heck, her thanking Mari during the battle with Zeruel reflects that. Her being saved by Shinji I also saw as her being told that she really isn't just an expendable clone, and that her life truly does have meaning and worth to others. But now apparently it was meant to be seen as why characters that are mainly devoted to the main protagonist are unhealthy and that one needs to reject those sorts of relationships, because all that really amounted to was Rei being the "unrealistic waifu that represents escapism", and that Shinji should've let her die because affirming her worth as a person is rejecting reality? That's basically undermining and dropping her character and development just to, ironically enough, make the themes revolve around how things centered around mainly Shinji are not good.

Not trying to offend anyone here, and I know I'm in the minority in terms of not liking 3.33 or Anno's direction he took with it around here. But I just feel that, given everything that I've seen and analyzed, the themes and viewpoint clash heavily here, and come across as sloppy, so I can understand why people believe certain facts or find it inconsistent.
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Re: "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 AVANT 1 (from beginning to 10:40) Version 0706" discussion and prediction thread

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:20 am

The idea that Kaworu is this manipulative figure is pretty funny to me honestly.
Not that I don't respect that reading, it just doesn't work for me at all.
He is actively trying to help Shinji. He's just too innocent for the world, and thus falls into Gendo's trap.
The entire point of his story in Q is that he believes a little too much in the good in people (like when he gladly gave his life because he saw Humanity as more valuable in NGE) and that leads to disasater.
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