Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:43 pm

The whole Kaworu debate for me is that changing that line (to say nothing of "grace") to "like" changes the context. What was once among Shinji's most pure moments, where he interacted with someone free from turmoil and with complete openness, is now just a little more normal. It comes off as "Misato, I made a friend today. I felt something, but only something."
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Postby Guy Nacks » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:02 pm

Well, I guess the value of all of our Platinum boxsets are in no danger of plummeting.

In terms of FMTTM, I think Netflix just decided to skimp on this because autoplay cuts off about 2/3 of the end credits and they probably felt that licensing 26 versions of the same song wasn't worth it. But this doesn't excuse them not at least licensing the ones that play during the actual show.

Another criticism I have thus far is of their handling of burned-on Japanese text in DEATH. There were a LOT of areas during the Eva introduction sequences and a couple other areas where there was no corresponding English subtitle. I don't know if this was still lacking in the 2002 Manga release, but it just seemed like a glaring oversight.
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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:09 pm

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Well, I guess the value of all of our Platinum boxsets are in no danger of plummeting.


My backup for rent is safe, whew.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:06 am

I know this isn’t how the internet works but it would be nice to see some small mea culpa given to Gen Fukunaga & his peers by nerds online. Everyone just thought he was being salty when he said Netflix getting Eva has its downsides because for them the series is just a piece of content and not something special. I remember agreeing with him back then because often what professionals in a certain field say has an iota of truth.


Funimation doesn’t have pockets as deep as Netflix but had they gotten licensees for it they sure wouldn’t have released the show without Fly Me To The Moon included.

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Postby pearisdriving » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:56 am

And I think nerds online need to chill out a bit in general right now. Even though I'm not happy with this release it's kind of annoying how 90% of discussion online about eva is currently about the dub or sub. Anyone interested in watching it or watching it for the first time and wants to join any online conversation will see nothing but a bunch of 25+ year olds that have seen the series multiple times in multiple forms bitching about everything. I honestly don't think going with this release as your first watch of Eva is worse than going with many of the early releases and we liked those just fine. I never really considered this as a release for long-time fans. We've seen it, we own it, we know where to get whatever version we want, we've discussed it. Of course it's natural that discussion within the first 24 hours is outrage over select instances of the production work and comparing it to previous releases because most people wouldn't just binge the whole thing in a day but I hope it will die out a bit so people who watch it for the first time or rewatch it after many years can actually discuss the anime without having nothing but dub arguments and 'well, ACTUALLY' in the replies.

Starting to think avoiding anything eva related online in the next few days may not be a bad idea

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Postby backseatjesus » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:08 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Funimation doesn’t have pockets as deep as Netflix but had they gotten licensees for it they sure wouldn’t have released the show without Fly Me To The Moon included.

I'm not sure they would, considering they didn't even get licensees for bgm in certain scenes for their release of Monster.

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:31 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:I know this isn’t how the internet works but it would be nice to see some small mea culpa given to Gen Fukunaga & his peers by nerds online. Everyone just thought he was being salty when he said Netflix getting Eva has its downsides because for them the series is just a piece of content and not something special. I remember agreeing with him back then because often what professionals in a certain field say has an iota of truth.


Funimation doesn’t have pockets as deep as Netflix but had they gotten licensees for it they sure wouldn’t have released the show without Fly Me To The Moon included.

If what they've been doing with DBS lately is any indication, they'd record awful new English covers of both Cruel Angel's Thesis and Fly Me to the Moon to replace the originals while screwing up a bunch of other small things. I don't think purists would be any happier with the alternative with the exception that Funi would probably bring in the Rebuild cast so they'd have the more familiar English voices.

He's right they'd market the hell out of the series, but there are so many other things they consistently cock up that I think it's entirely right to doubt him.
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Postby HARVEST » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:55 am

This just in.
According to this Twitter user, the intermission was cut out from Death (True)².
https://twitter.com/SwiftSLawliet/status/1142369655413067776

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:55 am

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote:I notice they changed Toji saying "You know you're a real pain in the ass, don't ya?" to "You know you're a real slave to your passions, don't ya?"

Is this version of the line more accurate?

I do notice it has a double meaning, intentionally or otherwise. Yes, Kensuke is a slave to his "passions," in the sense that he's a slave to things he's interested in, but Toji is also a slave to his "passions," in the sense that he's a slave to his emotional impulses. That's why he punched Shinji, twice.

I do know the line like that, and that's a good interpretation of it.

@penguintruth:
I hate people complaining about "Fly Me To The Moon". It's just a Netflix release. I can imagine any physical release would retain it.

Way more people will see it here than on physical. It should be complete.

The FMttM melody missing in the Misato scenes is really bad. :(

@ornette:
The decision to nix Fly Me To the Moon may have something to do with the streaming format. The next episode is queued up as soon as the ED starts and I think it auto plays in like 15 seconds? Most people probably just jump right to the next episode anyways.

While this is all true, I think even just the very first seconds of the ending have an effect on how you perceive the end of an episode (to me 22 always comes to mind).
What was once a tool to influence the mood now just cheapens the experience, because Rei's theme definitely doesn't always fit.

According to this Twitter user, the intermission was cut out from Death (True)².

Probably to avoid confusing people.
The music was beautiful though :(
Last edited by kuribo-04 on Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:04 am

View Original PostSEELE-01 wrote:Indeed, there is a fine line between bitching and commenting/criticizing.
You cannot deny, however, that many of the people here (myself included) are long-standing Evangelion fans accustomed to examine (for not saying nitpick) and analyze every single frame, line of dialogue and musical cue the series has. Many have been doing so sin 199X.


Ironically enough, 2 Evageek-friends of mine that are fans from '97-98 ADV days (e.g. the Genesis tapes dub) don't have issue with, for example, Kaworu's line translations, since it retains the ambiguity/unawareness of human social norms (Kaworu = Adam, and all that) contrasted with the queer KawoShin reading.

I 100% understand how passionate we all are about Eva (especially wanting newcomers to enjoy this show!), but I'm moreso flabbergasted at the lack of realization from old fans that "Oh, these translations are by Khara (via Dan Kanemitu) themselves, not Netflix". I mean...really? Certainly some stuff's unnatural-sounding in English, but the meaning is still there. (It also feels like folks are forgetting about context , which is super important for Eva, especially!)

To me, the very idea that the series keeps giving things to talk about is not depressing. So far we have been relatively civil about the discussion (I mean, no one has been banned!).


EGF has been totally chill, I'm complaining about other sites/social media such as the Eva Reddit, or Twitter, which IMO feels like a shitshow. Then again, I have no reading if it's a vocal minority of complaints (like most things in life? If you like something, you don't bitch about it) compared to those actually happy with the new translations.

No "Fly Me to the Moon" is a damn shame for sure, but even Funimation had problems with the licensing :shrug:
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:01 am

So I come back after a couple of years and this is what happens...

Haven't seen more than a couple of clips of dialog for the new dub, although I'm not impressed and I seriously question Netflix's reasoning behind doing a new dub rather than acquiring the old one. It's not the changes in the dialog or the new voices that get to me but the insipid delivery that makes them feel more like generic anime characters than the classic NGE characters we know and love. I can't say I was a great fan of the old ADV dub but I'll give that crew a 11/10 for passion and dedication, and I'm 100% certain they'd have delivered a far superior dub if they had been brought back.

A very "meh" take on a classic. The internet inferno is a thing to behold, although I'm quite done taking part in anything like that one way or the other.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:39 am

Episode 22, when the Lance of Longinus pierces the Angel, first we se the AT Field and the Angel getting pierced, than we see a wide shot, only a light left where the Angel used to be. There used to be a woooom sound effect in that shot, like the last aftermath sound of the attack. That sound is gone here. We just hear the music get quiet.

Is this a change from the blurays or is it new?

EDIT:
Only the case in Japanese apparently?
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:19 am

I have no issue with "It means 'I like you'", since suki was never a word used for unambiguous declarations of love -- it's similar to saying you "like" someone in English, which depending on context means you could just be fond of them or you could "LIKE like" them. Translating it as "love" might make some people feel better but it's not accurate to the intent, and requires making an unnecessary interpretative decision on the viewers' behalf.

Now, the "grace" thing at the very end is just plain wrong. Here's Shinji's line:

「カヲル君が好きだって言ってくれたんだ……僕のこと」
Which is basically, "Kaworu-kun told me that he liked me." Nothing about 'grace' anywhere.

Back in the bathing scene, Kaworu does say "koui" (好意), which has been variously translated in the past (sympathy, regard), and "grace" is in fact a perfectly accurate translation itself. I think it's an inspired choice, personally, considering who and what Kaworu actually is. That said, there was no reason to transpose "koui" into the final scene of episode 24 where it simply does not occur, and the decision to do so is rather mind-boggling.

Being the sort of person I am, I naturally rushed to the beginning of episode 21' to see if that line about DNA in the flashback had been corrected, and, of course, it still says that DNA is getting inserted into Adam (when the Japanese line very straightforwardly says that the DNA dived into Adam -- it's weird, yes, but this is Eva and weirder things have been known to happen...). Quite irritating. The layered dialogue in that flashback doesn't get subtitled, either, so people watching only on Netflix are being deprived on some important lore information. Oh well.

"S2 Drive" will take some getting used to. It's not a bad change, at all, since "engine" always felt a bit... ungainly to me.

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:41 am

Ok, episode 9 has another change and I don't know if it comes from the bluray.
When Shinji activates his SDAT accidentally after Asuka falls asleep next to him, it's a different sound...right?
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:34 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I have no issue with "It means 'I like you'", since suki was never a word used for unambiguous declarations of love -- it's similar to saying you "like" someone in English, which depending on context means you could just be fond of them or you could "LIKE like" them. Translating it as "love" might make some people feel better but it's not accurate to the intent, and requires making an unnecessary interpretative decision on the viewers' behalf.


Am I seriously mistaken, or didn't the original ADV subtitles for that scenes have the line go "I like you" before the dub and Platinum changed it to "I love you"? I personally was in favor of "I like you" - and there's no reason why "like" can't be in a romantic or sexual manner rather than merely platonic. Love made it too unambiguous, and I think the fuss about "like" rather than "love" is way overblown.

Now, the "grace" thing at the very end is just plain wrong. Here's Shinji's line:
<snip>
.


Huh. This seems just plain sloppy to me.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:09 pm

@Reichu What's your overall impression of the quality of the subs? I have noticed they're missing things like the background dialogue in 21 and some of the text inserts.

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I 100% understand how passionate we all are about Eva (especially wanting newcomers to enjoy this show!), but I'm moreso flabbergasted at the lack of realization from old fans that "Oh, these translations are by Khara (via Dan Kanemitu) themselves, not Netflix". I mean...really? Certainly some stuff's unnatural-sounding in English, but the meaning is still there. (It also feels like folks are forgetting about context , which is super important for Eva, especially!)

I saw people attacking Dan on twitter last night for that line, accusing him of being a homophobe who has no right to alter Anno's work and erasing a 'tasteful queer relationship' (WUT) and even going so far as to accuse him of being a pedophile because he has Strike Witches art on his timeline. Which I find fucking rich coming from people stanning a relationship between two 14 year old boys @__@. I'd wager most of them have no idea Dan works for Khara and never bothered to check.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:54 pm

Upon further consideration, the "grace" line at the very end makes slightly more sense, though I still don't think I agree with the decision.

The whole "I like you" thing comes about earlier as a result of Kaworu saying (paraphrased) "You're delicate like glass, and for that you have my regard/sympathy/grace (koui)." Koui is written 好意, and its Weblio page is here. It conveys quite a variety of different nuances, which might explain why Shinji asks for clarity. And in answer to that, Kaworu, of course, says 「好きってことさ」, "Suki 'tte koto sa". "Suki" we don't need to get into again; 'tte koto = to iu koto = "that is to say...", "meaning that..."; sa = ending particle we can ignore for the purposes of this discussion. Kaworu is thus elaborating that what he meant by "koui" was "affection".

In the final #24 scene, Shinji is simply substituting the word that Kaworu originally used to describe what he felt toward Shinji in place of the word he used to dumb things down so Shinji could understand. I don't think it's the right choice -- Shinji fixating upon the dumbed-down version is part of the problem! -- but at least, looked at this way, it comes slightly less out of nowhere.

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:@Reichu What's your overall impression of the quality of the subs? I have noticed they're missing things like the background dialogue in 21 and some of the text inserts.

It's quite bothersome -- the scale of omissions is considerable. I would guess this is more Netflix's fault than Dan's, though; their sub format simply might not allow for the sort of complexity needed to convey the dense information in NGE. That said, doesn't explain the staunch refusal to translate onscreen stuff when the subtitle track is otherwise unoccupied...

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Postby Tumbling Down » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:30 pm

I have a friend who goes on Something Awful, and he shared with me a post that explains why the translation is so literal.
https://i.imgur.com/gx7Rw76.jpg
I intuit that maybe the reason the old dub wasn't included on Netflix is that it didn't adhere to Khara's new translation.

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:00 pm

I have been thinking about the "worthy of his grace" line... It's interesting, not only because of the godly angle. Kaworu is deliberately written *not* to act like a normal person... because he is not. He is completely unaware of societal norms - like levels of intimacy and personal space, things that are crucial in Japanese society, which is part of what shocks Shinji. Perhaps they were trying to get this point across in the new localisation?

Reichu told me in the Discord that this might also be reflected on exactly why Shinji asks Kaworu to explain what he needs in the first place. The Japanese script includes not only the ambiguity of the "suki", but I'm guessing even throwing out the "koi" is weird and unusual in the context, which is why Shinji is confused.

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:05 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote:I have a friend who goes on Something Awful, and he shared with me a post that explains why the translation is so literal.
https://i.imgur.com/gx7Rw76.jpg
I intuit that maybe the reason the old dub wasn't included on Netflix is that it didn't adhere to Khara's new translation.


I am not entirely sure about how the first 3.0 screenings went down - some members here have seen them, but there is some truth to this, likely. Remember, this is not Netflix's translation, but rather Khara's, supervised by their own translator.

Also, I am on Tiffany Grant's FB fan group, and she has already mentioned that Khara were supervising them very closely for the 3.0 re-dub.


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