CG and Rebuild

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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CG and Rebuild

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Postby ShonHam » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:35 am

Over time, it's essentially become a consensus that CG in anime is out-of-place, clunky and for the most part to be dismissed entirely for the sake of enjoying the whole product. However, with anime in the last few years such as "Land of the Lustrous" and "SSSS Gridman" becoming notable due partly (almost entirely in Lustrous' case) for their CG, if implemented with more finesse and thought, do you personally believe that Final's CG could potentially rival 2D/traditional animation methods? Which would you rather see in Final if given the choice (2D or high-quality CG)?

I personally have a love for 2D animation myself, but honestly I'd be willing to have CG implemented if it was something done out of a want, not necessity. Thoughts?
Last edited by ShonHam on Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Joseki » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:37 am

I'm gonna need some context on that "consensus" because most of the CGI scenes in the Rebuilds are great.

Also Final will 100% have even more 3D and CGI. The teaser was basically entirely CGI.
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Postby ShonHam » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:46 am

Going to edit original post, thought I might have worded a bit strangely so allow me to change that. My point was moreso to start a discussion as to if given the choice, would fans prefer 2D animation or high-quality CG and it comes off more as me saying "all CG bad", so sorry for that. The Naruto running is something I can't defend but it doesn't equate to the whole movie series thus far.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:42 am

^Naruto running?

And I agree with Joseki, most of the CG in the movies is excellent. The only bit that immediately comes to mind as being off is that scene in 1.11 where the transport truck is bringing Units 01 and 00 up the hill, and that stands out because the movement is off, not because the models look bad. The 8th Angel is also obvious CG but I don't think there was any way that character design wasn't going to fully blend in.

I think CG mixed with 2D is just something people are going to have to accept, especially in franchises like Evangelion that have complex mech and vehicle designs. It allows the animators to get creative with action scenes and camera work without sacrificing detail in the machinery. Unit 02's fight with the mass production Evas in EoE is beautifully animated but the character art is notoriously inconsistent. Unit 02's design changes from shot to shot and the damage on the other Evas disappears and reappears.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 pm

So, finding some kind of fixed point for reference, IIRC TV Tropes had their entry for the CGI in Eva spanning from “It mostly looks weird” in Eva Jo, to “Its noticeable, but looks way cool” in Eva Ha and Q (especially for the Falling Angel scene), to “Wait, those crowd shots in 2.22 were CGI the whole time? Really? Who knew!”

For me, the only time the CGI looked out of place was in Eva Jo. Everything else looked either really cool or was stunningly seemless with the pencil animation. (Did you know that they kept switching from CGI to traditional animation for the Evas running toward the Falling Angel? I honestly couldn’t tell. It’s as seemless as the T-Rex breaking out of her pen in Jurassic Park.)

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Postby ShonHam » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:37 am

I think I was too rash with stating something about Rebuilds CG being considered bad, too many cynical Anitubers influence people's perspectives on certain things like the CG, myself included in some regards. There was a moment with Unit 01 rushing with it's arms behind it's back that looked a little strange to me at the time (hence "Naruto Run") as well as the truck moment shown above, but maybe it's worth a rewatch to make sure I'm not being overly negative.

As for the switch between 2D and CG that's really interesting. Can't say that I took notice at all, all the more reason to go back to it.
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Postby robersora » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:11 am

I think a big part of the existence of NTE is to push CG in the medium of Anime forward. And I feel like, they did a great job. The fight against Ramiel and all of Q, really have very good looking CG in my opinion. The only shot that always came off a little bit wonky to me is the one in which the dropping-bomb-angel starts opening. I don't even know why, I mean, yeah... the model doesn't look that well integrated... I guess it's the coloring?
But, I don't mind them looking alien, as they are angels. Still, it threw me out of the experience the first time I watched 2.22.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:48 am

View Original Postrobersora wrote:The only shot that always came off a little bit wonky to me is the one in which the dropping-bomb-angel starts opening. I don't even know why, I mean, yeah... the model doesn't look that well integrated... I guess it's the coloring?

I think it's the contrasting frame rates occurring in the same shot, during the same motion. The animation for the weird black & white pattern on the sphere's body is staggered to typical anime frame rate, but the animation for that same sphere opening up is animated at a full, fluid 23.98 fps, utilizing as much of HD video's natural frame rate to convey the motion. The result is the human eye getting used to the rhythm of typical anime frame rate for this particular shot while another, more fluid frame rate suddenly interrupts it in the same shot and replaces it with another frame rate. This difference in animation frame rates is more noticeable due to the fact that the sphere spins around while it opens, drawing even more attention to the more fluid animation in comparison to the staggered B&W pattern from before.

I think this highlighting the difference in frame rates was all intentional, of course, and if you look at the "Rebuild of Evangelion 2.02" making of featurette on the DVD you can see other, more exaggerated animations for the same angel that were cut because they might have been considered a bit "too much" for that shot, suggesting that this is a difference the animators were always trying to highlight but still didn't want the movement to be so smooth and quick that the angel lost its sense of weight.

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Postby robersora » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:33 am

^
That's interesting, thank you for clarifying. I think it's cool that they put thought into what they were doing, but in my opinion they kinda failed - to me the Angel doesn't look weighty at all.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:15 am

^I think they said in one of the interviews that they were working on the 8th Angel right up til the last second because they weren't satisfied with the way it looked.
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Postby robersora » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:28 am

^
Ah, I have faith in them that they have working eyes and care for the product they create. They are working under Anno after all. They tried creating something cool, but the experiment failed. It can't be helped. Better an ambitious failure than what most of seasonal Anime is, lol.
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Postby ShonHam » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:34 am

View Original Postrobersora wrote:^
Ah, I have faith in them that they have working eyes and care for the product they create. They are working under Anno after all. They tried creating something cool, but the experiment failed. It can't be helped. Better an ambitious failure than what most of seasonal Anime is, lol.


Completely agree with this. They obviously have passion and I'd like to see them try to realise their vision even if it's not the best it could possibly be for the masses. If Eva is anything, it's unconventional!
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Postby Jurrasic » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:49 pm

For my own part, I always thought the initial 'dropping bombs' angel looking like a big blobby jellyfish in space with an eye was by far the weakest angel in NGE, right up there with the video game alien' that sat in stationary orbit mind-raping Asuka while waiting to be finished off with a surface-to-orbit weapon.

The new model in 2.22 was a world of improvement, with multiple forms before revealing the 'glowing eye of doom' surrounded by mini-angels along it's 'wings' that seemed to be almost cheering it on. It was creepy and effective, and the fact that it was CGI didn't even enter my mind until after the scene was over, the colors running out as the little 'cheerleader angel' things died and the pulse went running back along the wings causing the main core to erupt in a tsunami of LCL instead of whatever kinetic impact effect the suicidal angel was supposed to have. It was a fantastic improvement over it's NGE original, and I have high hopes of CG making the finale of 4.0 as impressive as the long wait deserves to be.
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Postby Velorex » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:32 pm

I wonder how the film will be like with Blender being used over whatever program Khara used before. It is a versatile engine but idk how it will be translated into the film itself.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:55 pm

The tools used are irrelevant - the result is all that matters, and I don't care how they reach it.
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