Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 09, 2018 10:10 am

One of the reasons End of Eva has a reputation for being a mind screw is the sheer amount of stuff that takes place without the mechanics behind it being made clear for the audience, and a lot of that centres around Lilith. Perhaps the most bizarre of these is the way the MP Evas begin to morph into malformed duplicates of Lilith as Third Impact begins in earnest. All the insight we actually get into it is Aoba's report of the AT Fields resonating, and Fuyutsuki's bizarre proclamation that they're "merging with Lilith".

From an immediate standpoint, I'm really not sure why this is going on. The MP Evas are presumably derived from Adam, and we know them to possess their own S2 Engines, but neither really ties into becoming duplicates of Lilith. Sure she's taken Adam into herself as well so I guess she can exert influence over them through Adam... But Unit-01 is directly derived from Lilith, and yet doesn't seem to undergo a similar metamorphosis. One possibility is that Lilith's AT Field is somehow overwriting those of the MP Evas, which would coincide with the resonance...but again, the Tree of Sephiroth thing created the impression they had done something similar with Unit-01, and again no similar transformation took place.

It's kinda puzzling for me, and any insight into the matter would help immensely.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Wed May 09, 2018 10:39 am

I feel like I have a reputation for getting things kinda wrong and kinda right on here, but I might be able to sorta answer a few of your questions.

It never really made a ton of sense to me either, until I remembered that the Eva Series was designed, tested, and had their construction directly overseen by SEELE, they were created specifically to aid bringing about Third Impact, with combat capabilities just there because, I mean, they're soulless gigantic armoured humanoids, you really expect them not to fight? The S^2 engines were put in likely in secret so that even if they were able to be held off from NERV HQ, NERV's forces would have no idea that they needed to destroy the core, which is exactly what happened with Asuka and Unit 02 (rip). Once Unit 01 Awakened, they grabbed it's wings and lifted it to the edge of the atmosphere to meet with Lilith/Adam's Rei form, where she would give control over Third Impact to Shinji. The Eva Series' fusion with Lilith/Adam was probably just a way to speed up the Instrumentality process, have more 'souls' (I guess Dummy Plugs with the mind of Adam can mimic souls?) accept Instrumentality at it's start, and spread the tangification across the planet super quick after the immediate area below them.

Just like pretty much everything in Neon Genesis (aside from Shinji's ultimate decision), this was likely all planned out by SEELE.
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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 09, 2018 11:04 am

...how can they not have souls though? Ritsuko made pretty clear they need souls to actually function. Also given the whole "soul helps shape the body" deal not having souls should prevent them from changing shape like that. Of projecting AT Fields at all.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 09, 2018 11:39 am

Yeah, the MP Evas generate ATFs, therefore have souls.

----

I could never figure out a real in-universe justification for this happening either. The "real" answer is probably a boring Doylist one -- it happens because (presumably) Anno liked the visual. Repulsive effigies of Rei require no further justification. :tongue:

Beyond that, I just have stray thoughts.

One possibility is that Lilith's AT Field is somehow overwriting those of the MP Evas, which would coincide with the resonance...but again, the Tree of Sephiroth thing created the impression they had done something similar with Unit-01, and again no similar transformation took place.

I think the first part is essentially correct. They're becoming extensions of Lilith by virtue of getting engulfed in her A.T. Field, so powerfully that they change physically.

The SToL part earlier doesn't actually mention Eva-01, just the S2 activity of the MP Evas. For whatever reason, I'd always assumed that the AATF mentioned was created jointly by all ten Evas -- instead of single aura like we get with GNR later, we get one (a Sephirah) for each Eva. But... *shrug*. I wouldn't expect whatever's going on here to have physically altered Eva-01 for the simple reason that the MP Evas don't have a centralized ego. They're nine different souls controlled by the same A.I., but that's not the same thing.

What Lilith does the MP Evas could actually be thought of an Eva-only preview of HIP, in a way. EoE never tells you exactly what an AATF is, but you can reason it out from information earlier in the show. What's the only thing, aside from the Spear of Longinus, that can bring down an ATF? Another ATF. The Classified Information is a bit more explicit about this:

Classified Information wrote:A.T. Field:

(D) The very limits to which an A.T. Field can expand is an ego unbound: a god. In its presence, people's egos collapse and they revert to LCL.

They don't say AATF by name here, but we know what they're talking about. The general idea is that the ego generating the AATF is so overwhelming that yours cannot help but be swallowed into it. It's slightly more extreme than an Angel having its barrier forcibly brought down in battle -- instead of the two egos canceling each other out, one basically devours the other. The "over 400%!" sync fiasco could be considered a sneak preview of this general phenomenon.

I thought I had more, but I need to get my thoughts organized some.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Ah, so Unit-01 is self-actualised enough to retain its own form, but the ME Evas are not, and so they're easily swallowed by Lilith's Ego Boundary. That does make sense, though now I'm just confused as to how that was intended to play into their interaction with Unit-01.

It's a bit frustrating because, by virtue of having 3 scenarios stacked over top of each other (Gendo's, SEELE's and Rei's/Yui's) it's hard to figure out what was supposed to happen under each one. Did SEELE somehow expect Shinji and/or Unit-01 to generate an AATF that strong? It's clear they designed the MP Evas to work with Unit-01 after losing the Spear but it's not shown to be anywhere near as powerful as the Adam-infused Lilith.

On a side note, I'm still not sure why the Spear turned Unit-01 into a Tree of Life, or why Lilith absorbed it. Like I said, the 3I portion of the film at times feels like stuff just happening for no adequately explained reason.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 09, 2018 2:53 pm

ACGT-Samael wrote:That does make sense, though now I'm just confused as to how that was intended to play into their interaction with Unit-01.

You mean, how does Eva-01 not easily overwhelm them? Yui seems to want Instrumentality to happen, so perhaps to an extent she is subjugating herself.

Did SEELE somehow expect Shinji and/or Unit-01 to generate an AATF that strong? It's clear they designed the MP Evas to work with Unit-01 after losing the Spear but it's not shown to be anywhere near as powerful as the Adam-infused Lilith.

"Work with" is probably the key here. Similar to how the three Evas combined their ATFs to repel Sahaquiel, the ten Evas can probably combine the output of their ATFs to create one massive AATF. Seele seems to know that copies aren't as potent as the originals, hence why there are so many S2-powered Evas with replica Spears to fill in for the power of Adam and the original Spear.

Regarding the Tree of Life, as far as I can recall there isn't a Cliff's Notes version of this because no consensus was ever really reached. Just one of those things that doesn't get talked about much, for who-know-what reason. There is some convoluted brainstorming in this thread, which posits something to the effect that the Spear of Longinus is more than an ATF-killer, it's an agent of metaphysical change and manipulation, and it plays some kind of role in transforming the collected souls of humanity back into an integrated whole. Also, something-something-Adam Kadmon.

Bagheera proposed something along the lines that the Tree of Life is basically an embryonic form of a Seed of Life -- might be in this thread? I'll give it props for creativity, but I think it relies too much on assuming a relationship between 命の胎芽 (inochi no taiga - embryo of life/lives) and 生命の種 (seimei no tane - Seed of Life) when they don't even use the same word for "life", the term "Seed of Life" appears nowhere in EoE and "embryo of life" appears nowhere in Eva2, and seemingly no attempt was made to dive into Kabbalistic literature to see what Anno might actually have been attempting to reference in the first place.


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