Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:09 pm

Hello and pleased to meet you all.

I have never been on EvaGeeks before, but I have always been an assiduous reader of all the content of this magnificent site, so I feel quite familiar posting here, despite being the first time.

The reason I finally decided to sign up is to contribute to the richness of the site with my humble opinions on Evangelion and its universe. Hopefully someone might consider them interesting, while others may think they’re irrelevant. But, in any case, I’ll give it a shot.

In order to make my position clearer for everyone, firstly I must say I have always been a passionate admirer of Asuka. I watched NGE when I was 14 years old (very appropriately, indeed) and she already caught my attention, beautiful, fierce and astonishing as she is. However, at that age I didn’t really give it much importance. It was when I re-watched the series some years later, being more mature and having had more life experience, that I really fell for her, for I realized what she was hiding deep inside: a vulnerable heart protected by a delicate façade, as well as her continuous struggle not to allow others see her weakness. Her desperation for validation, her mighty pride and the vulnerability of her true self resonated so much with myself, that she was no longer a “cute redhead character”, but a sort of “soul-mate” in 2D.

For that very reason, as those interested will see later if they want to keep reading this post, I am in frontal opposition to any kind of romantic depiction of Asuka with our clueless MC, Shinji. If the admirable Mr Tines is the “anti-AS shipper” of this forum, emulating such a nickname, and adding my historical interest in the Holy War, I could be called the “anti-AsuShin crusader”, always willing to defend Asuka against those who wish her the misery of being paired up with someone who:

SPOILER: Show
1) Was utterly unable to understand her at all, despite her cries for help, and even so, was so selfish that played the “victim role”. Asuka was not clear, that’s obvious, and I understand how a 14-year old child like Shinji cannot be a psychoanalyst and understand everything. But his childish egoism accusing everyone of being ambiguous, or asking the rest for help while he never tried to really help them, makes him utterly despicable. He's undoubtedly relatable as a character, but ignoble nonetheless.

2) A hormonal teenager as he was, far from giving her the emotional support she was asking for, treated her like a dirty pornstar. And no, it wasn’t an accident: He even took the time to lock the room. Thankfully, he admitted he was “fucked up”, but that doesn’t exculpate him.

3) Had two desperate yet brutal outbursts against Asuka in the two scenes we all know well, in which he had the clear intention of killing her (out of revenge in the kitchen scene, and driven by madness on the beach post-3I), which are, in my opinion, a red line. The hospital scene was already nauseating enough, but the strangulation scenes were a good proof of what kind of person Shinji can become if being under too much pressure and having his wishes denied. “You don’t want to help me? Then, die!”. Very lovely, isn’t it?


Whatever Asuka saw during Instrumentaity that made her feel empathy and understanding (caress) towards Shinji, didn’t make her see him any better (cold stare and “Kimochi warui”). She can be very rightfully bitter with him, after all his edumbness during NGE, plus the utterly immoral and erratic behaviour he had in EoE. Shipping those two after all the film showed us is maybe one of the most optimistic acts of naivety. Be it because I like to consider myself a gentleman, or be it because of my appreciation for Asuka, I consider what happened in EoE unforgivable, and unworthy of a second chance for Shinji. But well, that’s only my opinion.

There is something undeniable, though, as The Eva Monkey describes it on his AsuKawo manifesto: Asuka has always been the legitimate “love interest” (despite I actively refuse the usage of love in their relationship; hormonal attraction, or a desperate need for other’s company and affection describe it way better) from episode 8 to the very end of EoE. Shinji lusted after the Trinity of women, but near the end, it is blatantly obvious that Asuka offers him the only relationship that doesn’t involve incest of pedophilia. But, being on equal footing to him doesn't make them a "lovely couple" or help to erase the toxicity and miscommunication of such relationship. They could have helped each other, yes, but they didn’t, and everything ended up becoming a vicious spiral of disappointment, frustration, misunderstandings and why not, hatred. Arguing that “Asuka is the right choice” or that “Asuka wins”, as some say, is reducing Evangelion to a rom-com anime, and ignoring what Asuka and Shinji interactions mean: the complexity of human relations, the barriers of pride and the fear of being alone. In other words, the Hedgehog’s Dilemma.

Agreeing with many wise users here, Sachi, FreakyFilmFan4Ever or FelipeFritschF, for instance, I really doubt there’s anything near romantic love present in the series. Even the “official couple” of Misato and Kaji could be seen as two adults giving an empty comfort to each other, like animals. And, obviously, claiming that two traumatized children of 13 and 14 years old like Asuka and Shinji are, respectively, were anywhere near “love”, is quite laughable. As laughable as it is to deny their mutual attraction, of course (a bit more complex in the case of Asuka, who wants help from him, while in Shinji’s case it seems to be rather physical). “They want the other to love and help them, without giving anything in exchange”, that could be a proper description of what’s between them.
Did anyone here feel true “love” being 13~14 years old? Quite unlikely, I think.


Finally, at the risk of making this post too long, I would like to share a humble article I wrote concerning this issue, for it is something that has always bothered me. It is my first and only serious writing regarding this matter, although I’ve had many discussions on places like MyAnimeList or 4chan (the latter is maybe the very worst place to debate about this topic; shamefully, I wasted too much time there, with little results apart from being called “Kaworufag”, “Reifag” and other kinds of insulting combinations using “fag”, no matter how much I tried to make them understand I was rather a “non-shipper Asukafag” xD. It’s better not to approach that venomous site, seriously). For that very reason, having had very tense debates with close-minded shippers, I hold an inevitable bitterness against them, which those who are interested in reading the article will easily notice.

This is the blog post I wrote, which might be full of mistakes and/or misinterpretations in your eyes, but I just felt I had to write it as a fan of Asuka who doesn’t want to see her suffering anymore: AsuShin, or How Opposites don't always attract.

If any of you, willing to read it, happens to be a civilized A/S shipper (unlike the savage beasts of 4chan and other sites), please don’t feel offended by my words. As a matter of fact, I honestly respect very much those who sincerely believe that Asuka and Shinji could be a viable couple (although I don’t share that opinion), thus wishing “the best for them”, after they’ve recovered from their traumas. I could mention a couple of users here to whom I have great respect, despite being shippers: xanderkh, Chuckman, or banned Bagheera, among others.

What I can’t stand are the kind of fanatic shippers who claim that their arguments are the absolute “canon” everyone should obey, and that all Evangelion is about is the “lovey-dovey couple of Asuka and Shinji”. Those ones, blatantly ignoring the complexity and nuances of the relation of the both children, only see what their goggles allow them to see, and defend their point of view with such belligerence and arrogance that it’s difficult not to get pissed off after debating with them. Sentences such as these: “AsuShin OTP” or “The ending of EoE is purely romantic. If you deny it, you haven’t got anything”, which try to humiliate the point of view of others, are what usually irritate me the most. To those, I show my bitterness in the article.

Having read plenty of LAS-friendly interpretations of the series, and if shippers can post huge articles using all kind of fanwank to conclude saying that Asuka and Shinji are “star-crossed lovers”, or interpreting every single event of the show with their shipping goggles, as if AsuShin was the crux of Evangelion, why can’t I, a rather moderate EVA fan, write about what I think of the message of the series and, why not, what I think of some of those extremist shippers?


SPOILER: Show
P.S.: Since it’s my very first comment, I would like to send my greetings to other users I haven’t mentioned above, but for whom I hold a great respect: Alaska Slim, Kendrix, Pwhodges, my fellow countryman Jäeger, Stillborn, silvermoonlight and Zeruss (always posting cute images here ^^) or Reichu (whose theory of the Complementation of the last Title Cards of eps. 25, 26, 25’ and 26’ is simply magnificent), just to mention some of them. Thank you all very much for having so enriching discussions, which have always been very interesting to read and from which I’ve learnt quite a lot.
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"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:48 am

quote- "fanatic shippers who claim that their arguments are the absolute “canon” everyone should obey"

I read a lot of complaints about this but I never actually see it and I argue a lot randomly with people about this show. I think maybe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The closest I see are like one off comments that don't come off as serious and not actual conversation or arguments.

quote- "But, being on equal footing to him doesn't make them a "lovely couple" or help to erase the toxicity and miscommunication of such relationship. They could have helped each other, yes, but they didn’t, and everything ended up becoming a vicious spiral of disappointment, frustration, misunderstandings and why not, hatred."

Sometimes I feel like people treat the toxicity of their relationship as if it is some naturally occurring thing that is unavoidable or inevitable. I don't agree with that attitude because if you track Shinji and Asuka "downfalls" during the show 90%(speaking from memory) of the time it's directly angel or eva related. For example it's not until Asuka is literally mind raped that she really starts to spiral down and that effects her relationship with Shinji and everyone else. That is hardly a completely natural reason for their toxicity towards each other. If this toxicity between them was truly an unavoidable thing and was completely true to who they are then the Manga ending wouldn't be viewed as a happy ending. It'd just be repetition of the same toxic stuff between Shinji and Asuka. Obviously there is no eva and angel anymore so ending with a Shinji and Asuka scene comes off as happy. My point is this toxicity is not something written in stone, it's something that develop in large part because of being pilots and fighting angels. Also just responding , I don't actually think I know what eva monkey meant or thinks.
hmmm

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:33 am

Thank you very much for your reply, zlink64.

zlink64 wrote:I read a lot of complaints about this but I never actually see it and I argue a lot randomly with people about this show. I think maybe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The closest I see are like one off comments that don't come off as serious and not actual conversation or arguments.


I really hope that's the case and that kind of shippers are a minority, or maybe I'm so unlucky that I always end up engaging in discussions with more than one at the same time. What really pisses me off is how they look down on everyone who doesn't agree with their ideas, as if they had the absolute truth.

For some reason, it is quite common to find very belligerent ones on Spanish-speaking forums, even those who still defend EoE has a Adam-Eve ending and that the two children will have to "repopulate" the Earth (although Yui clearly says otherwise when Instrumentality ends).

I've had quite bitter encounters, so maybe you're right and I'm exaggerating a bit. To be honest, the politeness shown here of EvaGeeks is something quite uncommon elsewhere. YouTube, for instance, is another example where discussions can be pretty uncomfortable.


zlink64 wrote:Sometimes I feel like people treat the toxicity of their relationship as if it is some naturally occurring thing that is unavoidable or inevitable. I don't agree with that attitude because if you track Shinji and Asuka "downfalls" during the show 90%(speaking from memory) of the time it's directly angel or eva related. For example it's not until Asuka is literally mind raped that she really starts to spiral down and that effects her relationship with Shinji and everyone else. That is hardly a completely natural reason for their toxicity towards each other. If this toxicity between them was truly an unavoidable thing and was completely true to who they are then the Manga ending wouldn't be viewed as a happy ending. It'd just be repetition of the same toxic stuff between Shinji and Asuka.


Well, Arael's mind-attack has indeed devastating effects and we get to see what Asuka's emotions were deep inside (a desperate need for other's affection, a false sense of independence and pride, and an obsessive wish for help and comfort from Kaji and Shinji. Someone who could "hold her" and save her from loneliness), but I would argue that the downfall begins a bit earlier: maybe the strong disappointment the kiss ends up being, as well as Shinji not paying attention to her constant hints. It's not like Arael makes Asuka miserable; the attack just shows her how miserable she already is. In other words, it doesn't cause the problem, but just makes it visible.

Moreover, regarding why they have such toxic interactions, while it is clear that their role as EVA pilots and the pressure they have to suffer are major factors, it is also clear that they have very problematic flaws: intimacy issues, unability to trust and open to others and, in essence, an utter incapability of understanding each other (or actually anyone else). We, the viewers, are shown how similar the both of them are, so one tends to think that they could have helped each other very easily; but Anno, playing with us very cruelly, makes us see how utterly broken they are, and how violent their misunderstandings are. Miscommunication, plus their different mechanism to cope with similar traumas (Asuka's abbrassiveness and Shinji's avoidant attitude) are an explosive combination. Thus, in my opinion, while I agree with you saying that the Angels and EVAs have a terrible impact in their interactions, I also think it has to do with their own personalities.

FInally, as for the manga having a happy ending, while it's not exactly the same canon (meaning that Asuka and Shinji interactions are slightly different, and somehow less harsh), they seem to lose all their memories and just be reborn as normal teenagers. It's even possible that they won't meet again after that scene of the station. It's true that, for broken children like them, losing all sad and traumatic memories would be a bliss, so in that sense it is indeed "happier" than EoE. In any case, the scene just depicts a casual meeting, and they part ways quite fast; it's not an interaction from which we can see if they would repeat the same mistakes and clash again.


P.S.: I really liked your theory of Hegel's "Master-Slave" influence on the last scene of EoE, zilnk64. It isn't exactly how I interpret it (for me it's just the comeback to reality, with all its pain but hope involved: caress/coldness, as well as a proof of the traumatic "growth" these two children have experienced, although the barriers of pride, A.T. Fields, are back, so it's not entirely a happy ending at all. It's hopeful, nonetheless). But your interpretation was pretty much spot-on, and was really nice to read. As a philosophical explanation for the ambiguity of the last scene, it's magnificent, although it's still unclear whether Anno read Hegel or just heard of his theories from others.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Geometer » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:15 pm

The thing about Asuka and Shinji's relationship is that it good( well it could have be good) and toxic at the same time. They are in some sense perfect for each other, both having faced the same trauma with the dead mother, absent father, piloting eva, and general loneliness. But at the same time they are terrible for each other, both buried neck deep with their own problems, and honestly their personalities obliviously don't match. Asuka says to Shinji he can never understand her in EoE, but honestly he might be the best person who could, but this at the same time is what makes him unable to help her. Its a contradiction.

However in the end I do feel negative towards AsuShin. Maybe it could have gone right as fanfics try to portray it but the contradiction is just too deep to escape. It only gets worse if we are hypothesizing about after End of Eva, where Shinji becomes honestly unforgivable. Then again Asuka does seem to forgive him. But then again she is disgusted/sicken by him. So ya its a grim picture in my opinion, and I don't see much hope in them having a positive romantic relation. Maybe some time in the future they could reconcile as friends, but who the hell knows what they will be like then. They could have learned from the events of the series/film or have been crushed by them.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:57 pm

Hello, Geometer and thanks for the reply.

I can agree with pretty much all you said, but if you let me, I'll comment a few things you said in detail.

Geometer wrote:They are in some sense perfect for each other, both having faced the same trauma with the dead mother, absent father, piloting eva, and general loneliness. But at the same time they are terrible for each other, both buried neck deep with their own problems, and honestly their personalities obliviously don't match. Asuka says to Shinji he can never understand her in EoE, but honestly he might be the best person who could, but this at the same time is what makes him unable to help her. Its a contradiction.


I couldn't agree more with you. Truly, the paradox of Asuka and Shinji is that, theoretically, they could have understood each other on so many levels that a hypothetical "romance" would have healed the both of them. But, at the same time, life isn't as easy as it seems, and sharing common experiences and traumas doesn't guarantee a full understanding. In fact, many people who have similar issues usually despise each other, for being with that person constantly reminds them of their own flaws and traumas. That's why, regardless of how similar they are, as we are shown in the series/film, that doesn't automatically make them suitable for each other. It's a tragic contradiction, indeed.

(Thus, I'm of the same opinion as Alaska Slim that Asuka and Shinji need more stable partners, and not someone that will remind them of their own traumas all the time. As I think Mr. Tines said more than once, Shinji's optimal partner would be one of those random normal girls of school, haha)

Geometer wrote:It only gets worse if we are hypothesizing about after End of Eva, where Shinji becomes honestly unforgivable. Then again Asuka does seem to forgive him. But then again she is disgusted/sicken by him. So ya its a grim picture in my opinion, and I don't see much hope in them having a positive romantic relation. Maybe some time in the future they could reconcile as friends, but who the hell knows what they will be like then. They could have learned from the events of the series/film or have been crushed by them.


I agree with 95% of what you said. Only after EoE they could remotely form a stronger relationship, since they can understand each other better. But, at the same time, the bad blood and memories are still there (the sin is too heavy, to be forgotten/forgiven I would say) and their state after EoE isn't exactly the most desirable to form an intimate relationship. Having seen each other's secrets doesn't really help at all, as Asuka's final line shows us.

Like you, I can't see a romantic relationship happening either, although I do believe they might reach a sort of reconciliation in the future, when they have matured enough and considered everything that happened in perspective. The end is left ambiguous on purpose, so, who says they're forced to become lovers? There are many kinds of relationships which would be a great deal better, given their state; for instance, a platonic friendship and/or brotherhood, just like war veterans. In any case, they're 14 years old, for Heaven's sake; they're young enough to choose whatever path in life they want.


The little detail I didn't really agree with what you said, Geometer, is forgiveness. I have read some analysis of the last scene that described Asuka’s caress as an act of exculpation, and some of them were pretty convincing. But all of those articles had one same weak point: the cold stare and the final line. None could successfully explain why on earth Asuka is so “forgiving” at first, but then shows such coldness (I’ve rewatched the last scene many times, and Asuka’s eyes can be very scaring when she looks at Shinji and says her line). That’s why, while forgiveness could be a possible explanation, I’ve never bought that interpretation at all.

Moreover, if we take into account the origins of ‘Kimochi warui’ (Miyamura/Asuka reacting to the hospital scene), it’s clearly about Shinji. And, honestly, you don’t usually call “disgusting” in the coldest voice possible someone whom you have forgiven a couple of seconds before. It’d be very strange.

My take is that Asuka has realized she can’t live alone (thus, showing a certain growth compared to Arael’s mind-attack in which she constantly repeats that she “can live by her own”), but at the same time is deeply disgusted with Shinji’s attitude and fragility. She can understand him better after Instrumentality, realizing they were kind of "soul-mates", but pain is too difficult to forget and forgive. Also, seeing Shinji crying like a baby after having been strangling her is quite pathetic. Asuka doesn't even shed a single tear, even though she has the same reasons as Shinji to cry, or more. But there he is, behaving like a kid again. How disgusting, indeed.

Such contradiction is the Hedgehog’s Dilemma, very well shown with the combination of the four last titles (merit goes to Reichu, who explained it very clearly here and on reddit): “Do Your Love Me? > Love is Destructive > Take Care of Yourself > I Need You”, which, in my opinion, could mean: “I am afraid of human interactions, of hurting and being hurt, but I need others to be happy”, which is applicable to all humankind. We see Shinji and Asuka on the beach for narrative purposes, but the Dilemma is common to all humans, especially to otakus/hikikomoris, to whom Anno possibly wanted to send that message. “Don’t isolate yourself, go out and live life!”

Those who claim the last scene is a sort of "love confession", or that the both of them have "fully reconciled" blatantly ignore all the previous interactions between the characters. Understanding and empathy? Yes, without any doubt. Forgiveness? Doubtful, but somehow likely. Love? Hmm... I don't really think so. One can't erase pain all of a sudden, and Shinji and Asuka have hurt each other so deeply, that not even the traumatic therapy session Instrumentality was could possibly eliminate that bad blood. If H.I.P. was such a bliss and the two children were completely healed, Asuka's final line wouldn't be so cold and remorseful, in my opinion.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:50 am

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:
Those who claim the last scene is a sort of "love confession", or that the both of them have "fully reconciled" blatantly ignore all the previous interactions between the characters. Understanding and empathy? Yes, without any doubt. Forgiveness? Doubtful, but somehow likely. Love? Hmm... I don't really think so. One can't erase pain all of a sudden, and Shinji and Asuka have hurt each other so deeply, that not even the traumatic therapy session Instrumentality was could possibly eliminate that bad blood. If H.I.P. was such a bliss and the two children were completely healed, Asuka's final line wouldn't be so cold and remorseful, in my opinion.


A relationship doesn't need to have all it's issues "fully reconciled" for it to be potentially positive. And issues don't need to reconcile immediately to eventually be reconciled.

You're blatantly ignoring a great deal of what we're shown throughout the series if you don't think there's potential for good here. As it is, they're already in a much better place by the end of EOE then they were at the beginning of the show.

Asuka can value herself without facades and is willing to openly show affection, Shinji is willing to accept the pain that comes with life and doesn't have to suppress it.

Both started considering themselves worthless and ended considering life worth living.

This is what we would call...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... evelopment
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:14 am

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:You're blatantly ignoring a great deal of what we're shown throughout the series if you don't think there's potential for good here. As it is, they're already in a much better place by the end of EOE then they were at the beginning of the show.


Who said I think they're doomed forever? I do admit there's potential, but what happened between them wasn't precisely easy to forget. I don't think it will be easy for them to even forgive each other, and even less to form a relationship, although as you said, they are in a better place after EoE, compared to the series.

Maybe my moral codes are too high to see Shinji's actions as "easily forgivable". And, honestly, knowing how prideful Asuka is, and what she said in the end, I don't think she's ready to fully forgive Shinji either. In the future, after they've mellowed enough? Well, of course; one can't remain remorseful forever, and Asuka does understand Shinji better. But does her caress imply, as you may believe, that she's ready to have a romantic relationship with him in the near future? I don't think so.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Asuka can value herself without facades and is willing to openly show affection, Shinji is willing to accept the pain that comes with life and doesn't have to suppress it.

Both started considering themselves worthless and ended considering life worth living.


Here we can fully agree. I don't think I said anything opposed to that idea, which is clearly what EoE shows us. But the way some analyze it implies that, after 3I, everything will be alright, and that all pain, misunderstandings, personality issues, etc. will be magically healed. Maybe I'm a pessimistic, or maybe those who believe that are way too optimistic, but, honestly, what Asuka and Shinji have in front of them is the hardship to build the bridges that were destroyed during the series/film. That's why I'm very sceptical of their future relationship as a romance. Will they reconcile? Of course, I do think so. But, in a Hollywood-style romance? The injuries are too hurtful, I think.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Geometer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:52 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:A relationship doesn't need to have all it's issues "fully reconciled" for it to be potentially positive. And issues don't need to reconcile immediately to eventually be reconciled.

You're blatantly ignoring a great deal of what we're shown throughout the series if you don't think there's potential for good here. As it is, they're already in a much better place by the end of EOE then they were at the beginning of the show.

Asuka can value herself without facades and is willing to openly show affection, Shinji is willing to accept the pain that comes with life and doesn't have to suppress it.

Both started considering themselves worthless and ended considering life worth living.

This is what we would call...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... evelopment

Well the thing for AsuShin is that, maybe, maybe it could work. But is it really worth it? The best hope for a good relationship between each other is not to be romantic one but a platonic one. We are trained by media again, and again to put the male and female leads together,(or the male protagonist gets a beautiful damsel in distress), but is this really a good thing for either of them?

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby jcmoorehead » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:59 am

View Original PostGeometer wrote:Well the thing for AsuShin is that, maybe, maybe it could work. But is it really worth it? The best hope for a good relationship between each other is not to be romantic one but a platonic one. We are trained by media again, and again to put the male and female leads together,(or the male protagonist gets a beautiful damsel in distress), but is this really a good thing for either of them?


Well it depends on how its written :tongue:

I think a main thing in their romance is that they have to acknowledge the people they are/were and make positive changes. They can make those changes together or individually and then come together afterwards.

I'm a very obvious AsuShin shipper but I can definitely see the positives and negatives to the ship and how it's handled. I think if they communicated at the right time during the series romance could have blossomed and I think after EoE if they both took the time then it can there too but as people have said it's a complicated situation, there will be a lot to forgive on both sides and many changes to make.

People can of course have different views on it though. I tend to not get involved too much in the debates about shipping because I've seen it turn nasty far too much. I've seen AsuShin shippers told they're horrible people, I've seen it happen to KawoShin shippers and other ships and it's just not worth it.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Geometer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:32 pm

View Original Postjcmoorehead wrote:Well it depends on how its written :tongue:

I think a main thing in their romance is that they have to acknowledge the people they are/were and make positive changes. They can make those changes together or individually and then come together afterwards.

I'm a very obvious AsuShin shipper but I can definitely see the positives and negatives to the ship and how it's handled. I think if they communicated at the right time during the series romance could have blossomed and I think after EoE if they both took the time then it can there too but as people have said it's a complicated situation, there will be a lot to forgive on both sides and many changes to make.

People can of course have different views on it though. I tend to not get involved too much in the debates about shipping because I've seen it turn nasty far too much. I've seen AsuShin shippers told they're horrible people, I've seen it happen to KawoShin shippers and other ships and it's just not worth it.


Well in my opinion most of the time you have to over estimate the characters good sides for it to really work. I mean what would Asuka see in Shinji at this point? Not a whole lot, they have common baggage, and can understand each other on some level but is this to form a relationship? I don't think so, sometimes the protagonist and antagonist have the best understanding of each other. IMO there is just too much bad blood in between them, Shinji really fucked up EoE. It hard to see him be forgiven yet alone embraced by Asuka anytime soon. Even after the growth that she had. I would find it hard to forgive someone if they acted like Shinji. If they do make up it it probably would be platonic or even a sort of mutual understanding yet intentionally distant and unfriendly acknowledgement.

I honestly think the whole shipping issue comes down on how much you like Shinji. If you like him you want him to end with a girl. Not just some random girl in Shinji's future, but usually Asuka or Rei, the notably beautiful fellow pilots. If you don't sympathize with him as much your not as likely to find these ships palatable. This may come off has biased towards one character, but I think Asuka, even with her problems, deserves some one better than Shinji. That may sound a bit rough towards Shinji but that is my thoughts of the characters at the moment. My opinion of the characters has shifted over the time and maybe it will change again, but overall I don't think feel that great about AsuShin. But maybe we are just all overthinking the romantic lives of fictional characters.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:38 pm

I posted this on the thread about "I Need You", but I think it'd be interesting to show it here as well:

Here are a couple of excerpts from two interviews to director Kazuya Tsurumaki, who worked hand-in-hand with Anno on EoE as co-director, that somehow reinforce the idea that EoE is far from having a "happy" ending in which "love" wins.
"A Story of Communication":
SPOILER: Show
"-- Was this cinema edition made to match Director Anno's state of mind?
KT - I believe so. There was a time when Hideaki Anno clearly wanted to attempt a more cathartic development.
It didn't end up that way, but I don't think we lied.


-- When you say "lie", do you mean to suddenly conclude with something like "love saved the world"?
KT - Exactly. And we didn't do that with this movie. I feel no dissatisfaction at the ending. I really like it.

-- At the end of this movie, Shinji seems to have reached a sort of settlement regarding troubles of the heart.
KT - Well, my personal view is, "Do we really need to complement these troubles of the heart?" Regardless of whether or not we are complemented, have troubles, or find our answers, interpersonal relations exist, and the world goes on. I thought the last scene meant to say that life goes on, but I could be wrong.

-- In the end, Evangelion was a story about communication -- at least judging from that last scene.
KT - That was the intent from the start of the TV series. That was what I tried to produce from episode 2 onward.

-- Yes, that was the scene where Misato and Shinji talk while measuring distances from each other in Misato's apartment, right? Although they appeared to be getting along fine with each other, Shinji was thinking, "She seems okay, but....", while Misato was thinking "I wonder if he sees through me?"
KT - there were other scenes in episode 2 as well. For instance, when Misato talks to Shinji but doesn't enter his room. Even in episode 3, they are having a casual morning conversation, but are not looking at each other. Like they looking through a slightly opened door, but not connecting. This is the same between Shinji and Rei, and between Shinji and his father. It's no wonder there was a lot of distant, awkward communication. "

----

And he sends a message to people like us:

"-- Finally, do you have some message for the fans?
KT - Don't drag the past around. Find the next thing that interests you.

-- Does that mean not becoming fixated on "Evangelion"?
KT - Yes. It's always better to let something that has finished end. "


"Amusing Himself to Death"
SPOILER: Show
Why does Evangelion end violently, and somewhat unhappily?

KT: People are accustomed to sweet, contrived, happy endings. We wanted to broaden the genre, and show people an ugly, unhappy ending.



@jcmoorehead: Thanks for your reply. I'm glad there are reasonable shippers who see things as they are; not glorifying AsuShin reducing it to a simplistic rom-com "romance", but actually realizing there are many injuries that will be hard to heal from.

@Geometer: Again, I completely agree with you. After their maturation, the most realistic scenario I can imagine is them becoming platonic friends, as you said. The optimal romantic choice they have is to look for more stable partners that would provide them with the tranquility needed to forget traumas and bad experiences. More than that would require such an intense therapy and such an immense amount of compassion, that it's hardly believable; but still, who knows. The fixation some have on the both of them having to remain together no matter what, as if it was a mandate from Heavens, is what pisses me off the most; but well, shipping is shipping after all.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 pm

So these two were doomed to fail, huh? Or unintentional? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering the way they treated each other throughout the series and especially towards the end.
I've been reading this thread for sometime now, so now I think I'll take this time to post my thoughts into this.

@CeasarMagnus: Like you, I have been skeptical of Shinji and Asuka of ever having a positive relationship, which could be romantic, or platonic even. The first, as of right now, is highly unlikely given their interactions throughout the whole show, but I guess it could be mutual, albeit begrudgingly. (And I'm not so sure what platonic means, so forgive me on that.)

However, I personally think think that Asuka was largely to blame for the spiralling downfall of their relationship, and that she's half the reason why it's so toxic; her personality and aggressive attitude is what drives Shinji and, quite possibly, many others away. Her rotten attitude, her spiteful tendencies, her aggressiveness, and her constant needs to put others down just to satisfy her twisted ego is what made others want to avoid her, and that's the case with Shinji. If she wasn't so damn rude to people all the time (or the majority of the time), then maybe Shinji wouldn't be so withdrawn from her. It'll be like hugging a cactus, putting up with an angry cat, or some crazy drunkard or an abusive parent to be around and tolerate someone such as Asuka, who can be considered an angry cat or an abusive person for a lot of times. If that were the case, who would want to be around someone like her and put up with her bullshit.

Now, I'm not blind to what Shinji did her at the hospital, as well as his inability to help her during her last stand against the MPEs. But let's not forget that Asuka is to blame as well. I think that everything that has happened to her was her own doing, everything she had brought onto herself because of her dumb choices, all for the sake of her pride, which was basically nonexistent in the first place, but a fake like that front she puts up. Just a sad, pathetic little girl is all that she is, and she was too dumb or just too blind to realize it. It wasn't until she foolishly and recklessly decided to charge towards the 15th angel only to get mind raped and was forced to see all her past actions and for this twisted girl she has become. And her pride is what got her killed in the end. And yes, the MPEs did cheated at her chance in victory, but her recklessness has had some part in it too.

And let's not forget that there were some people who tried to be nice to her. And what did she do? She threw it all in their faces like they mean nothing to her and treated them like crap, but didn't even bothered to look in the mirror. If she hadn't been so nasty towards people, especially Shinji, then things would have been more different for, and may be even better if wasn't for her overly obnoxious attitude and her damn superiority complex.
She wants someone to respect her? She has to earn it.
She wants someone to give her sympathy? She has to be more deserving of it.
She wants someone to be able to love her? She's gonna have to be able to give it in return.
But unfortunately, she's not quite at that point yet, and I don't she ever will be. So why should someone be able to give her some sympathy, love, and respect, even a shred of it, if she won't be willing to give in return?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:44 am

View Original PostGeometer wrote:Well the thing for AsuShin is that, maybe, maybe it could work. But is it really worth it?

Yes, that's the entire point of Shinji's charcter arc and the story of NGE as a whole:

He decides it's worth it to risk getting hurt to be close to the people he cares about. Or, as Magnus has quoted:
KT - Regardless of whether or not we are complemented, have troubles, or find our answers, interpersonal relations exist, and the world goes on. I thought the last scene meant to say that life goes on


Shinji chooses a life full of pain over a life free of pain because he wants to be with the people he cares about like say...

SPOILER: Show
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Geometer » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:12 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So these two were doomed to fail, huh? Or unintentional? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering the way they treated each other throughout the series and especially towards the end.
I've been reading this thread for sometime now, so now I think I'll take this time to post my thoughts into this.

@CeasarMagnus: Like you, I have been skeptical of Shinji and Asuka of ever having a positive relationship, which could be romantic, or platonic even. The first, as of right now, is highly unlikely given their interactions throughout the whole show, but I guess it could be mutual, albeit begrudgingly. (And I'm not so sure what platonic means, so forgive me on that.)

However, I personally think think that Asuka was largely to blame for the spiralling downfall of their relationship, and that she's half the reason why it's so toxic; her personality and aggressive attitude is what drives Shinji and, quite possibly, many others away. Her rotten attitude, her spiteful tendencies, her aggressiveness, and her constant needs to put others down just to satisfy her twisted ego is what made others want to avoid her, and that's the case with Shinji. If she wasn't so damn rude to people all the time (or the majority of the time), then maybe Shinji wouldn't be so withdrawn from her. It'll be like hugging a cactus, putting up with an angry cat, or some crazy drunkard or an abusive parent to be around and tolerate someone such as Asuka, who can be considered an angry cat or an abusive person for a lot of times. If that were the case, who would want to be around someone like her and put up with her bullshit.

Perhaps that is true, but that still doesn't excuse Shinji's behavior in EoE, which also gets Misato killed and triggers third impact.
Now, I'm not blind to what Shinji did her at the hospital, as well as his inability to help her during her last stand against the MPEs. But let's not forget that Asuka is to blame as well. I think that everything that has happened to her was her own doing, everything she had brought onto herself because of her dumb choices, all for the sake of her pride, which was basically nonexistent in the first place, but a fake like that front she puts up. Just a sad, pathetic little girl is all that she is, and she was too dumb or just too blind to realize it. It wasn't until she foolishly and recklessly decided to charge towards the 15th angel only to get mind raped and was forced to see all her past actions and for this twisted girl she has become. And her pride is what got her killed in the end. And yes, the MPEs did cheated at her chance in victory, but her recklessness has had some part in it too.

A lot of the same old say that exact same thing for Shinji. He had plenty of times to develop better relations with many people but instead choose to be passive, just reacting to everything and not actively try to improve his life. If you blame Asuka's meanness for her downfall, then Shinji is just as bad with avoidance, and passivity.
And let's not forget that there were some people who tried to be nice to her. And what did she do? She threw it all in their faces like they mean nothing to her and treated them like crap, but didn't even bothered to look in the mirror. If she hadn't been so nasty towards people, especially Shinji, then things would have been more different for, and may be even better if wasn't for her overly obnoxious attitude and her damn superiority complex.

Where people really nice to her though? Only person was Hikari really. Shinji did a few half assed attempts, Misato played favorites towards Shinji, Nerv only wanted her for piloting, Kaji really did seem to try to put that much effort into connecting with her, and Rei well, is Rei. Sure she was mean to those around her but most really didn't seem to try to be nice that much.

She wants someone to respect her? She has to earn it.
She wants someone to give her sympathy? She has to be more deserving of it.
She wants someone to be able to love her? She's gonna have to be able to give it in return.
But unfortunately, she's not quite at that point yet, and I don't she ever will be. So why should someone be able to give her some sympathy, love, and respect, even a shred of it, if she won't be willing to give in return?

Your not entirely wrong but again the same could be said for Shinji. If you have such a negative view Asuka then you should hate Shini who is just as guilty, if not worse than Asuka in these flaws.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:47 am

CT, I thought we already dispelled this notion of yours that Asuka has never shown kindness, affection, or compassion for others or Shinji specifically.

However as you're repeating arguments that have repeatedly been addressed, I suppose I'll literally repeat mine:
View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:
Pay more attention bro...

-> is visbly moved when Shinji almost goes overboard to saver her:
http://www16.soul-anime.us/watch/neon-g ... -10/(19:53)
-> Endangers her life to protect Shinji and Rei:
https://www.facebook.com/batangnuon/vid ... 3016/(3:10)
-> Passes on an expensive steak dinner to help out Misato
-> Passes on steak dinner to get Rei out of her shell
-> tells Shinji depending on the validation of his a-hole father is stupid
https://watchcartoonslive.eu/watch/neon ... erso(21:16)
-> Compliments Shinji and tries to get him to think better of himself
http://www16.soul-anime.us/watch/neon-g ... -15/(11:57)
-> Goes to the hospital room where Shinji is because, *gasp*, she cares about Shinji:
http://www16.soul-anime.us/watch/neon-g ... -16/(21:38)
-> Gets angry when she finds out her classmate is also an eva pilot:
http://www16.soul-anime.us/watch/neon-g ... gelion-17/
-> Tries to tell Shinji the truth when everyone else is basically lying to him:
http://www16.soul-anime.us/watch/neon-g ... pisode-18/
-> Gets angry that Shinji doesn't value himself:
http://www16.soul-anime.us/watch/neon-g ... e-16/(2:07)

You have to really cherrypick here to arrive at the conclusion that she doesn't even have the capacity to care for people. We repeatedly see her show affection and concern for others throughout the show. She can't properly express herself though because her self-hatred prompts her to close herself from others.

Which is why it's a massive moment of character development when she decides she wants to live. That's why we get this:
https://youtu.be/pVeKyqV1jWU?t=2m5s

The self-loathing Asuka would have let herself be killed or would have violently defended herself.

The Asuka that sees the value in herself is capable of properly expressing her affection.

So, yea, she grew. She's a better person. It stands to reason that as both Shinji and Asuka have confronted the main personal issues that caused their relationship to collapse, their relationship by the end of EOE is on more solid footing.

Don't be baka brah.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Bhorium » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:53 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:as well as his inability to help her during her last stand against the MPEs.?


I have got to ask, because I see this one pop up quite a bit. What exactly could Shinji have done in this situation? Yui held all the cards at this point and she deliberately waited to until Asuka was really most sincerely dead to make her move.
Last edited by Bhorium on Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry, I was soliloquising again. Filthy habit.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby silvermoonlight » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:20 am

View Original PostBhorium wrote:I have got to ask, because I see this one pop up quite a bit. What exactly could Shinji have done have done in this situation? Yui held all the cards at this point and she deliberately waited to until Asuka was really most sincerely dead to make her move.


The manga implies Yui can move he just has to call up on her so Shinji could have done the same in EOE.

Calling mother.  SPOILER: Show
ImageImage


In the manga Asuka is also saved from the mass eva's by 01  SPOILER: Show
Image
Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy.

My Eva fanfiction ff.net Fading In To The Stolen Light For download version please go to AO3

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:41 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Yes, that's the entire point of Shinji's charcter arc and the story of NGE as a whole.


I think what Geometer wondered is whether it would be worth for Asuka and Shinji to force themselves into a relationship if they only keep making each other suffer once more. The caress is a hopeful symbol, but Asuka's coldness and 'Kimochi warui' kind of show us they haven't defeated their inner ghosts.

As I said on the "I Need You" thread, although you didn't like the sentences, there's a huge difference between "Being hurt is inevitable when you interact with others, but the joy and necessity of it makes is worthwhile" and saying, "Consistently toxic and harmful relationships are worth it because of the slim hope you'll get something good out of it". Asuka'sBigBrother, as we're discussing on the other thread, your view is quite optimistic, while mine is rather pessimistic (I've read even darker views than mine, though), and as for now, neither your now mine is "correct". I don't think what we see in Last Scene is enough to conclude that everything will go well between the both of them. It can all explode again.

Many of us think that the pain they caused to each others was simply too much to be forgotten and forgiven. It's not that they had some problems, but that they had huge problems, and those obstacles might be too hard to ignore in their future.

Being with others can hurt, but can be happy; but constantly hurting others, just for a slim sense of hope is what doesn't make any sense. The masturbation issue is already one very delicate matter Shinji will be ashamed of and Asuka will be disgusted with; but the list is a lot longer. A list of bitterness.

----

@C.T. 1290: Nice to meet you. I’m glad we share a common view on this matter. As I see it, a platonic epistolary friendship would be already a realistic “happy ending” for the both of them, after they’ve somehow reconciled, but are with more stable partners.

In any case, despite our agreement on most of things, I think you’re a bit harsh on Asuka and maybe too indulgent towards Shinji. Asuka is absolutely to be blamed for some of the things she did and how she treated others using them to release her own self-hatred. However, Shinji, albeit being the main character and being very relatable, becomes an utterly despicable person, especially near the end. He’s not free of guilt, for he behaved selfishly almost all the time, asking others to help him, while he didn’t ever try to help others sincerely (perhaps because he just couldn’t possibly help others, being as broken as he was).

He knew Asuka was similar to him, after he saw her tears while saying “Mama” in ep.9, but he never tried to become an emotional support for her. Take the kiss scene as an example: Asuka, who uses the memory of his mother to make him accept, firstly waits for him to take the initiative; he doesn’t move; she proceeds with it, and Shinji is excited with it (oh, human contact! yay!), but doesn’t move; Asuka is waiting for something else and waits... waits... waits... until Shinji, almost suffocating, pushes her. He just cared about what he felt, but didn’t even think about Asuka’s emotions at that moment. He’s a teenager after all, curious about the opposite gender and craving affection; but he’s not willing to give anything, just taking it.

Another good example would be the Last Scene: Shinji, out of madness, brutally strangles Asuka (for whatever reason, be it to prove her existence, to kill her, or as a hallucination from Instrumentality), to which she unexpectedly responds with compassion. But what does he do next? Just curl up and cry like a baby. He's received kindness from the last person he could have expected to receive it, and all he can do it to cry? Even though she's made the effort to reach out to him, he, once more, thinks just of his own pain, and cries. Well, then there's no wonder why Asuka shows such coldness in the end (that and, obviously, the nauseating memory of him "showing her some affection" in the hospital). It reminded me of how she says "No" in the Kitchen scene, seeing Shinji as the pathetic being he is. She's no less pathetic to a certain extent, but at least she was strong enough not to shed a single tear, although she had reasons to.

In contrast to Shinji's avoidant personality, Asuka was considerably more "active" trying to get closer to him, although erratically. She even dared asking Shinji for a kiss, most likely out of frustration/teenager curiosity. She even visited him in the hospital. But, what did Shinji offered to her? Nothing at all. Asuka did her best to show some sort of "kindness" towards others (even to Rei, her Nemesis). But no one gave her anything. Not even Hikari, her best friend, could manage to help her; and, of course, NERV's only purpose was to use her as a pilot, regardless of her emotional angst. She's indeed a tragic character, whose attitude didn't help her become closer to the others either.

That’s why Kaworu was like a dream to him: he offered him an impossible kind of love, in which Shinji would receive but not give. Pure happiness, but not real. Such kind of relationship simply cannot exist, and thus Kaworu died.

And, even with all that in mind, he dares accusing the Trinity of Women of being “ambiguous” with him, and even told them “to be nice to him” if they ever wanted something in exchange. He is undoubtedly selfish, and in EoE, becomes immoral and despicable. That’s why, feeling so much related to Asuka as I feel, I can’t help but to despise him. I don’t exculpate Asuka for her faults, but Shinji is far from being innocent whatsoever.

Moreover, C.T. 1290, I think you see Asuka as a kind of “red devil”, but that’s not exactly what she is. Due to her childhood trauma, she had to build a façade not to allow others see her vulnerable heart. She’s lonely, but doesn’t want to show it. She’s in need of help, but will never ask for it. She’s prideful and strong, but deep inside her soul, she’s just a crying little child.
Last edited by CaesarMagnus on Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:57 am

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:He is undoubtedly selfish, and in EoE, becomes immoral and despicable. That’s why, feeling so much related to Asuka as I feel, I can’t help but to despise him. I don’t exculpate Asuka for her faults, but Shinji is far from being innocent whatsoever.

And yet i still like and sympathize with him, why?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Bhorium » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:58 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:The manga implies Yui can move he just has to call up on her so Shinji could have done the same in EOE.


I know, but the manga is not really the same as the anime though, as the character and circumstances are quite different. I could go on a long diatribe about it, but I think that is way outside the scope of this tropic, so the TL;DR is that manga Shinji is a more proactive character and, more importantly, manga Yui is a more unambiguously good-aligned character.

I guess what I am trying to say is: Within the confines of the anime continuity, what could Shinji really have done in that situation?
Sorry, I was soliloquising again. Filthy habit.


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