Of Yui, 3I, and Other Tangents

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:50 pm

Reichu wrote:YEAH BUT YUI SAID SHE WAS GOING TO BE VERY LONELY SO THAT MEANS SHE WAS NEVER GONNA CRANK ANYTHING OUT THAT WOULD NEGATE AN ETERNALLY LONELY FATE RITE?

To that I say so what? Lilith was never meant to interact with her offspring which would be a horribly lonely existance.

I still wanna know who she was doing anything for when Shinji was an unripe ovum.

Why she started in the first place would probably be carrying through with the FAR's ideals. Her priorities after her son's birth are another matter.

Yui doesn't seem like the judgmental sort (unless that's one of her dark secrets).

Foolish is my POV on our species, I wasn't intending to speak for Yui. I think she wanted to get the point across that you can find happiness in the real world.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:16 pm

Didn't the Divinity Trinity (Lilith, Adam, and Yui) take charge of Third Impact to happen according to THEIR Scenario, not SEELE's or Gendou's because:

1) Pre-Instrumentality, specifically Third Impact was unavoidable regardless of whose scenario it followed. Since it was "Certain to happen within the next 10 years"; going along with what Yui and Fuyutsuki said in the flashback conversation in 21' (we see the end of the flashback discussion in 26', just before the Final Scene where Asuka returns).

2) As Kaworu-kun said in episode 24': "All of you [Humanity] need the future."

3) At the start of 26', Rei defies Gendou because "she's not his doll (and) she's not his", she returns to Lilith since "Ikari-kun is calling me."

Based on these three inferences, I'd say its safe to say the Divinity Trinity took control of 3rd Impact because of:

1)Wanting to show Shinji the right path to take. Instrumentality is a step backwards and the world/humanity isn't SO terrible. You CAN learn to Take Care of Yourself and Love Yourself and Others provided you decide to live; so you CAN have chances to become happy anywhere.

2)Wanting to help ALL humanity, not just him, and since it would have happened anywhere, it's best for it to occur wherein people have a CHOICE to return as opposed to either:

This, SEELE's Scenario: Being a collective consciousness thus losing the ability to "think for yourself and live for yourself"(Asuka quote); which is what SEELE wanted. "In order for God, humanity and all life forms to unite as one someday..."~Some SEELE ?? guy, 25'

Or this, Gendou's Scenario, which is slightly better but still ain't right: Being "alive" but all souls still united at one; which is what Gendo wanted so he could be with Yui-sama again. "Death won't create anything."~Gendo, 25' "No, it is not that we are returning to nothingness. We are only restoring everything to its original state. We are only returning to our mother, who has been lost to this world. (Lilith reference??) All souls will become one and find eternal peace. That is all there is to it."~Gendou, 25


Cue Yui in the "Gendou-pose", Lilith and Adam on either side of her: "How are the preparations coming along?"
Adam/Kaworu: "Just fine, ma'am."
Yui: "And Operation-let's-scare-the-shit-out-of-my-son-since-
Pre-Instrumentality-and-Third-Impact-are-unavoidable-mind-fucks ??"
Lilith/Rei: "Right on schedule, my Motherly DNA-provider."
Yui: *smiling under her hands* "Excellent."

....Okay, that's enough outta me for one day. ^^;
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:30 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
Reichu wrote:WORDS

To that I say so what? Lilith was never meant to interact with her offspring which would be a horribly lonely existance.

Well, you should know my own favoritism towards the "2nd Generation Seed Scenario" (isn't that one my fault?) and my determination to "interpret around" the evidence commonly cited against. ;)

The ALL CAPS imply "devil's advocate" + "this is a commonly cited argument that I personally don't agree with".

Her priorities after her son's birth are another matter.

BUT LIKE FUYUTSUKI AND "YOUR IDEAS" AND STUFF.

Gendo seemed to believe that he and Yui had agreed on something, as well. Watch him talking to her in #24.

I think she wanted to get the point across that you can find happiness in the real world.

I still say there's more to it than that. Image

Ornette wrote:It definitely wasn't in Seele's version of 3I.

Shinji seemed to serve some purpose in the proceedings... How were they going to achieve the same thing?

Sailor Star Dust wrote:"No, it is not that we are returning to nothingness. We are only restoring everything to its original state. We are only returning to our mother, who has been lost to this world. (Lilith reference??) All souls will become one and find eternal peace. That is all there is to it."~Gendou, 25

That bit never did make much sense, with relation to whatever Gendo seemed bent on actually achieving. But that topic is in another thread.

3) At the start of 26', Rei defies Gendou because "she's not his doll (and) she's not his", she returns to Lilith since "Ikari-kun is calling me."

She just says "Ikari-kun wa yonderu" = "Ikari-kun is calling".

I'm inclined to go with the "Divinity Trinity conspiring to get 3I over and done with" stuff. (Probably because that theory is at least partially my fault, too. ...I think?)
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:44 pm

Reichu wrote:BUT LIKE FUYUTSUKI AND "YOUR IDEAS" AND STUFF.

Gendo seemed to believe that he and Yui had agreed on something, as well. Watch him talking to her in #24.


Yeah, yeah. Like I said I get the sense she was big into the FAR's ideals. You know monuments and the continued existance of humanity. This may have been Gendo's orginal motive but it seems as though he lost it after the CE. The fact that she left him out of the loop on that indicates they weren't exactly on the same page. His all incompassing motive after that CE was to get her back. Yui fucking up SEELE's plans for Shinji's sake seems perfectly in character for her. If you can teach the silly Lilim a lesson in the process all the better.

oops typo
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:14 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Yeah, yeah. Like I said I get the sense she was big into the FAR's ideals. You know monuments and the continued existance of humanity.

Don't forget the part about sending their Seeds with giant pitchforks that might screw them over at a moment's notice and giving these strains of humanity all sorts of lovely ways to destroy themselves. ;)

The fact that she left him out of the loop on that indicates they were exactly on the same page.

They were exactly on the same page BECAUSE she didn't tell him she was going to transcend into a god-like body...?

His all incompassing motive after that CE was to get her back.

Kozo seemed to stick by his side to the bitter end, for some reason or another...

Yui fucking up SEELE's plans for Shinji's sake seems perfectly in character for her.

Being a Daughter of Seele, she would have known about their plans all along. Waiting until she had Lilim-spawn of her own before deciding Seele's plans were worth foiling seems a bit... Image

If you can teach the silly Lilim a lesson in the process all the better.

Born a silly Lilim, always a silly Lilim?
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:59 pm

Reichu wrote:They were exactly on the same page BECAUSE she didn't tell him she was going to transcend into a god-like body...?

Typo, I meant weren't

Kozo seemed to stick by his side to the bitter end, for some reason or another...

I think that had more to do with sticking with Yui than Gendo.

Being a Daughter of Seele, she would have known about their plans all along. Waiting until she had Lilim-spawn of her own before deciding Seele's plans were worth foiling seems a bit...

Didn't I say something about changing her priorities after Shinji's birth?

Born a silly Lilim, always a silly Lilim?

Shinji managed to learn something from the whole ordeal.

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Postby Ornette » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:08 pm

Reichu wrote:
Ornette wrote:It definitely wasn't in Seele's version of 3I.

Shinji seemed to serve some purpose in the proceedings... How were they going to achieve the same thing?

I dunno how they planned on using Eva-01 without a pilot, but were they counting on someone to save Shinji from the JSSDF? Even if the order to kill all the pilots weren't given by Seele themselves (it makes sense from the JSSDF point of view to get rid of the people that operate the Evas, being the things that pose the greatest danger to them), they could have at least said to detain them.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:37 pm

Ornette wrote:It definitely wasn't in Seele's version of 3I.
Oh no? I seem to recall a couple lines from Seele regarding that, but this quote is the first I found:

EoE wrote:SCENE: SEELE monoliths

All (chanting):
Evangelion Unit 01's pilot...
Complement humankind with your imperfect ego.


But then they did give the order to kill him too, so....
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Postby Ornette » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:57 pm

By that point, whatever Seele's plans for 3I was already skewed, since Lilith and Adam wasn't supposed to be part of the mix. But it seems that any Instrumentality is better than none at all so they went with it.

It wouldn't make any sense for them to allow someone to choose for not just whether Instrumentality would happen or not, but to end it as well, when they could have simply had just Instrumentality.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:58 pm

AEF wrote:
Reichu wrote:Born a silly Lilim, always a silly Lilim?


Shinji managed to learn something from the whole ordeal.


So did Asuka though it'll probably take her time to truly show it/understand that.

....What? Image


RE: Shinji to kill him or not to kill him stuff: I'd say that because he didn't get get killed like SEELE wished, the Old Men decided to simply use him as they saw fit. e.g: If we can't put a bullet through his head, fucking with his mind is the next best thing. :twisted:

Of course, little did SEELE know their plans were already fucked thanks to Yui/Lilith/Adam, but it seems like Ornette beat me to that.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:07 pm

Ornette wrote:By that point, whatever Seele's plans for 3I was already skewed, since Lilith and Adam wasn't supposed to be part of the mix. But it seems that any Instrumentality is better than none at all so they went with it.

It wouldn't make any sense for them to allow someone to choose for not just whether Instrumentality would happen or not, but to end it as well, when they could have simply had just Instrumentality.
I remember posting a quote from an earlier scene (not in the film) that seemed to imply they were relying on Shinji's destrudo ever since Instrumentality through Lilith was lost to them (damn if I don't remember where I posted it/found it though). I'm not suggesting they were ALWAYS relying on it, but post 22' I think there's a strong possibility they were.
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Postby Themaninblack » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:21 am

Reichu wrote:Shinji seemed to serve some purpose in the proceedings... How were they going to achieve the same thing?


...SEELE more than seemed okay with killing the Eva pilots. That does make me wonder...how the hell would have 3I happened then. SEELE would have quite literaley fucked themselves... royaly
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Postby Opteron-O3 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:52 am

They had control over the MP Evas using the Dummy Plug. So they would attempt to use the Dummy Plug system on Sho. So the pilots weren??t actually needed anymore, 3Impact would still happen via Dummy Plugs.

I need to rephrase the above sentence...
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:30 am

Yui already told Rei in no uncertain terms to fuck off so I doubt a Kaworu based dummy plug would work on her at that point. Would've been funny to hear Keel bitching about it though.

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Postby Opteron-O3 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:55 pm

True, but I don??t think Seele knew that Yui rejected Rei the 2nd time did they? Would??ve been funny though! :lol:
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Postby Themaninblack » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:11 pm

Opteron-O3 wrote:True, but I don´t think Seele knew that Yui rejected Rei the 2nd time did they? Would´ve been funny though! :lol:


So if SEELE had succeeded in taking over NERV and killing everyone...they would have never have initated 3I. HMMMM...Shinji's whinning alomst saved the world
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Postby Ornette » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:45 pm

Why couldn't they use the harpies and just initiate 3I without a pilot? Does Eva-01 need to be in the air?

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Postby Themaninblack » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:35 pm

Ornette wrote:Why couldn't they use the harpies and just initiate 3I without a pilot? Does Eva-01 need to be in the air?


Keele said he needed EVA unit-01 for the Human Insturmentailty project to work. So yes I guess.
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Postby Ornette » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:01 pm

Ornette wrote:Why couldn't they use the harpies and just initiate 3I without a pilot? Does Eva-01 need to be in the air?

To clarify, I meant using Eva-01 in the hangar bay, but without a pilot.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:19 pm

To clarify, I meant using Eva-01 in the hangar bay, but without a pilot.


Maybe all they needed was Yui-sama herself and possibly the Dummy Plug System? Afterall, that's what the Harpies ran on...

....Besides SHITINESS! *Cue Ominous Thunder and Lightening* :lol:

Eitherway, I still say because Shinji survived with his body (but not his mind) intact, SEELE just decided to fuck up the poor boy even more...or so they thought.
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