Are the angels actually aliens?

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Postby fadingreminder » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:59 pm

It doesn't sit right with me because that means Adam would know where he laid those eggs/birthed those Angels and if his soul, and apparently memories, are in Kaworu, then it would seem easy to hunt the Angels. Doing a soul transplant into Rei isn't that crazy because she was an empty vessel when she was created. Since Adam has a soul, then Lilith has a soul. Since Lilith gave birth to humanity, which also have souls, it can be assumed that the offspring of Adam have souls. If so, are there two souls dwelling within Kaworu or did the original soul that dwelled within him do as Adam's upon explosion and leave?

Metaphysical stuff that doesn't have to be explained, I suppose. Maybe just my want for everything to be explained without leaving anything completely unexplainable. I'm all about open-ends as long as they can be assumed to an extent... this just seems almost like something you have to look over.

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Postby Ornette » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:02 pm

fadingreminder wrote:It doesn't sit right with me because that means Adam would know where he laid those eggs/birthed those Angels and if his soul, and apparently memories, are in Kaworu, then it would seem easy to hunt the Angels.

Adam would have known, if they didn't get scattered all over the Earth and the Atmosphere thanks to the 2I explosion.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:04 pm

What Ornette said. And Rei doesn't remember her true past when it comes to being Lilith. Also, the whole Kaworu/Angel soul thing, there's a theory regarding him gathering the dead angels' souls at the Lake in ep. 24'.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:44 pm

fadingreminder wrote:it can be assumed that the offspring of Adam have souls.

The clues in the show are more straightforward than that: They generate ATFs, the ATF is a manifestation of the soul / ego, ergo they have souls.

If so, are there two souls dwelling within Kaworu or did the original soul that dwelled within him do as Adam's upon explosion and leave?

Adam's children are not born with souls -- they are bequeathed after the fact. Seele were putting Adam's soul into an empty vessel.
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Postby fadingreminder » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:20 pm

Okay, so color me stupid then... If Seele are filling an empty vessel as far as Tabris is concerned, then what about the souls in the other Angels? Where do those come from?

I never really considered Rei to have Lilith's soul as I've never thought Lilith was ever dead or without a soul.

If 2I scattered all the Angels, what are the chances of Tabris landing on Seele's doorstep? Is there any information about how Tabris was found?

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:37 pm

fadingreminder wrote:Okay, so color me stupid then... If Seele are filling an empty vessel as far as Tabris is concerned, then what about the souls in the other Angels? Where do those come from?
Lilith/Adam have something called the Chamber of Guf which is where souls originate from. If you watch EoE and 3I you can see souls returning to the Chamber through Lilith's Hands and her Black Moon/Egg of Lilith. So I'm assuming Adam's process is much the same. Adam gives birth to vessels (the Angels), and during 2I he/she drew souls from her/his Chamber and implants the vessels with souls.

fadingreminder wrote:I never really considered Rei to have Lilith's soul as I've never thought Lilith was ever dead or without a soul.
A "life" in NGE is basically a soul that is contained in a vessel. A vessel is just an empty shell without a soul, and a soul without a vessel can't really do much (no physical body). The soul is pretty much everything that makes up a person, and once that is gone, Lilim lose their shape and return to LCL. The Angels/Adam/Lilith are different because their vessels aren't made of LCL (rather, they're made of PWM). So when a soul escapes their vessels their bodies can maintain their shape. That's why Lilith is a blobby mass on the cross. It's just an empty vessel, her original soul is in Rei. And that's why when Rei returns to her Lilith takes Rei's form.

fadingreminder wrote:If 2I scattered all the Angels, what are the chances of Tabris landing on Seele's doorstep? Is there any information about how Tabris was found?
It appears Kaworu was left behind. IOW, the angels were likely already birthed pre-2nd Impact. Adam only gave them their souls during 2I. After Adam blew apart he left the Kaworu egg behind - so it didn't scatter like the rest.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:53 pm

fadingreminder wrote:It appears Kaworu was left behind. ...After Adam blew apart he left the Kaworu egg behind - so it didn't scatter like the rest.

I'm guessing this has something to do with the Tabris egg still being inside Adam's body (had only been conceived less than 40 minutes earlier) when she does that simultaneous "explode + retrovert" bit. I have no idea why such a miniscule object would survive; maybe Adam used some kind of ATF Voodoo to protect it?

For some reason... I am reminded of that mystery photo clipped to the 2I report.

IOW, the angels were likely already birthed pre-2nd Impact.

And Seele had counted Adam's eggs before they hatched...
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Postby fadingreminder » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:04 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:...when a soul escapes their vessels their bodies can maintain their shape. That's why Lilith is a blobby mass on the cross. It's just an empty vessel, her original soul is in Rei. And that's why when Rei returns to her Lilith takes Rei's form.
A great point I never considered... Thanks.

Otherwise, am I right in understanding that Adam's 2I is basically a reverse order of Lilith's 3I? Adam releases souls whereas Lilith collects them? I'm not afraid to admit that I'm not the sharpest around. I may have been into Eva for a while... But I, admittedly, know next to nothing about the intricacies of it thanks to my lack of resources up to now.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 pm

Hey, don't be so down on yourself! Eva IS a pretty hard show to understand, otherwise the rest of us wouldn't be here! ^_^;
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:55 pm

Definitely what SSD said. You should read some of my posts from when I first showed up here. And Reichu's infamous pre-Topomax era posts *winkwink*. NGE is a pretty complex and subtle series in that it rarely comes right out and tells you what's going on. It uses a lot of visuals and miniscule dialogue to give the viewer *hints* at what's going on, but it's largely up to us to connect the dots.

fadingreminder wrote:
Otherwise, am I right in understanding that Adam's 2I is basically a reverse order of Lilith's 3I? Adam releases souls whereas Lilith collects them? I'm not afraid to admit that I'm not the sharpest around.
That's what I'd like to believe. There are no doubt differences (Adam laying eggs and doling out only 15 souls), but I'd like to believe that a good portion of it is the same as well.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:56 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Hey, don't be so down on yourself! Eva IS a pretty hard show to understand, otherwise the rest of us wouldn't be here! ^_^;
Yeah, no shite! I had to watch the whole series, Death/Rebirth and EoE like two or three times before I understood (most of) what the fcuk was going on, including this thread's subject.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:26 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:...when a soul escapes their vessels their bodies can maintain their shape. That's why Lilith is a blobby mass on the cross. It's just an empty vessel, her original soul is in Rei.

Being soulless didn't have anything to do with being blobby per se. Do I need to post that psychotic "birthing" pic again? ;;p

when Rei returns to her Lilith takes Rei's form.

...mostly.

And Reichu's infamous pre-Topomax era posts *winkwink*.

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Last edited by Reichu on Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:31 pm

Reichu wrote:Do I need to post that psychotic "birthing" pic again? ;;p
DO NOT WANT. ;)

My point wasn't that she was blobby because she was soulless (I badly word stuff sometimes, and with NGE you have to be VERY careful), just that when Rei returned to her she was able to take on Rei's form (mostly, yeah).
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby 20XD6_Tyrant » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:45 pm

THE Hal E. Burton 9000 wrote:Yeah, no shite! I had to watch the whole series, Death/Rebirth and EoE like two or three times before I understood (most of) what the fcuk was going on, including this thread's subject.

It's kinda easy to understand once you know what the entire show is about a year before viewing said series.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:43 am

20XD6_Tyrant wrote:It's kinda easy to understand once you know what the entire show is about a year before viewing said series.
Yeah, but that's no fun. When I first saw it I had NO CLUE what it was about. I viewed it only having knowledge that it was one of the most popular and critically acclaimed anime series out there. Those "Mindfuck" element was such a big and fun part of that first experience.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:24 am

fadingreminder wrote:who's to say that isn't a response and change for the sake of regretting the initial use of religious symbolism?


I suppose it's worth reminding people that the guys at Gainax were a bunch of Japanese hard-core SF fans -- which makes your hypothesis less plausible than the aliens-first one.
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Postby Sachi » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:39 pm

they cant be aliens if theyre from Earth, unless we're talking about Illegal Aliens, then thats a different story


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