Misato, one of my favorite characters in anime and probably in fiction in general. Her troubled past and flawed aspects of her character combined with the more fun and strong aspects of her personality make her both appealing and interesting to me.

Javik wrote:Just try to think of it this way, the first is the kind of character you'd like to read and explore in fiction, the second is the type you'd enjoy haning out/befriending/dating in real life.

Yeah, that's a pretty good way of looking at it. I really like Gendo as a character, but if he was a real person, I would be pretty disgusted with all his manipulation and shit. That being said, at the end of the day, he IS a character. That's why I find the term "Asuka apologist" a little strange; I mean, she didn't actually do anything wrong. However, I do understand that a fictional character's behaviors can influence the behaviors of real people, and so I understand why it's important to debate over the rights and wrongs in terms of character's actions. It's just a bit of an odd thing to say, when you think about it. But I can't really think of any other words to use myself, so I suppose it doesn't really matter.

silvermoonlight wrote:I think to say that she can't change or doesn't have the capacity to change is very unfair because your basically saying that people who suffer that kind of abuse and neglect will always be abusive towards others

That's not something I actually think, so if that's the impression you got it was completely accidental. But, y'know, I've been on this forum a long time, and there have been a lot (A LOT) of Asuka fans who have come and gone. Some of them left the impression of being insufferable fanboys who want to control any conversation that surrounds her. (If you do not feel this applies to you, it probably doesn't. If you feel like it might, maybe it does. I'm not going to name anyone specific...) Call them white knights, apologists, whatever you want. It sounds pretty ridiculous in the context of fictional characters, but, well, fictional characters are a useful way to process our thoughts about real people and their behavior. I've had to tolerate people shitting on my favorite character for as long as I've been a fan, so it's never felt quite fair that Asuka specifically should get to be cushioned from harsh words owing to her fan base's exorbitant size.

I have a list with reasons:

1: Ritsuko - She hates her mother, but ends up exactly like her mother (she did her mother's sloppy seconds after all), and pretty much does the exact same job her mother did (Evangelion handler, MAGI repair specialist) I hate her hipocracy, and general disregard for the children.
2: Kaworu - While he may seem nice, he is the antithesis of Rei, cool, calculating, and aware of his mission is to fuck Shinji (not like that ) HIs main job is to break Shinji into little tiny pieces by doing the one thing the fragile boy would never handle, giving and taking away his love, and forcing Shinji to kill him, which leads to two things
this and this
3: The JA Guy - He's just an asshole, and his machine is stupid looking

4: Naoko Akagi - Because she is the less bitchy version of her daughter, but she killed Rei I for calling her a hag (rightly deserved though)

5: Langley - Really, your wife has gone insane, and you find it appropriate to fuck your wife's doctor? That's some cold shit, bro.

6: Keel Lorenz - He's the head of SEELE, is there any other reason?

I know you noticed someone is missing from this list - Gendo.

Why not Gendo you ask? Well, he only wants to see his wife again, the only person who probably ever loved him or cared about him. I can't really fault the man for that, even if his motives are so over the top, Warhammer 40K would not be able to fathom them. And his parenting is so sub-par, Yui inside the Evaengelion was a better parent than Gendo could ever dream of being. I just htink he's misunderstood, and just wants Yui back, a la Shinji in 2.22 (Give me back my YUI!) What also makes up for the anime and manga versions of him is the Shinji Ikari Raising Project, which makes him to be the comical oaf he should be.

Ooh, I have a list for this too with reasons!

1: Mari Illustrious Makinami - Well, after seeing her in the intro of 2.22, well, how can I not love a character who tells something to "fucking die" and lands tits first into our hero, an epic introduction, and a first impression that Shinji won't likely forget.

She's a fantastic combatant, which is hot, and she knows how to put Princess in her place, and basically, she's my favorite because she's weird, like me. Plus look at that face, she's ready to kill somethingwhihch is soooooooo awesome!



2: Ryoji Kaji - My favorite male character, I'm sad he died. But I liked him for his boyish charm, and the fact he was the only one who could make Misato blush uncontrollably. I liked him more in the manga, becasue he really tried to help Shinji out a bunch, and made him realize he can't keep running away. He has a great sense of humor.

Plus he grows watermelons! He's just sooo cool. Requiesce in pace my friend.


3: Asuka Langley Soryu - Ok, yes, the character people love to hate. I won't excuse her actions towards Shinji, like being a super bitch, or trying to suffocate him during their kiss, or her general distain for Rei. The girl has issues, and so do pretty much every character in this show (with the exception of Pen-Pen) Now Asuka was my top favorite early on because, well this is the first image of NGE I ever saw - See, I have reasons for everything

So she holds a special place in my NGE fueled fanboying. She's a great pilot (EoE, nuff said), she's smart, and when she wants to be, she can be kinda nice, which I think we see for a total of 95 seconds on screen. The girl really just needs a hug from Shinji to know that he cares so that she can finally accept herself. Maybe if Misato treated her with the same respect she did for Shinji, Asuka wouldn't have been as jealous as she was.


4: Fuyutsuki - The dude is so underutilized in the show, he would be higher if he actually spoke more. He was Yui's college professor, and pretty much the only guiding light Gendo has, and he secretly loves Yui, which is oh so sweet.


5: Rei Ayanami - Well, Rei is a favorite of mine because of her growth through the series, and later on because of her tragic backstory. She really grew on me, and that touching moment in Episode six made me really like her character. Look at that smile!



6: Shinji Ikari - Ok, he's on the list because he's not a bad person, EoE scene aside (why though, why did you do that! ), but that scene put him in 6th place. Anyway, I personally like Rebuild and Manga Shinji better than the anime version. Why, you ask? Well, manga Shinji has a backbone, and some balls, he attacks his father after Before he resigns, he leaps over the desk and tries to punch Gendo in the schnoz, but us held back by his adoptive father, Kaji, and the action shocks the hell out of Gendo. And as for rebuild, before he is forced out of Unit-01 after almost killing Asuka, he does this:

That's right Shinji, fuck that pyramid up, make it your bitch, show daddy he can't force you to hurt your friends anymore

Anyway, that's my list

Reichu wrote:That's not something I actually think, so if that's the impression you got it was completely accidental. But, y'know, I've been on this forum a long time, and there have been a lot (A LOT) of Asuka fans who have come and gone. Some of them left the impression of being insufferable fanboys who want to control any conversation that surrounds her. (If you do not feel this applies to you, it probably doesn't. If you feel like it might, maybe it does. I'm not going to name anyone specific...) Call them white knights, apologists, whatever you want. It sounds pretty ridiculous in the context of fictional characters, but, well, fictional characters are a useful way to process our thoughts about real people and their behavior. I've had to tolerate people shitting on my favorite character for as long as I've been a fan, so it's never felt quite fair that Asuka specifically should get to be cushioned from harsh words owing to her fan base's exorbitant size.

One of the reasons I really like Evangelion as a show is because all of the characters have flaws no one is perfect and in that sense they can appeal to everyone in some way but I don't think people should gloss over or stick up for bad flaws which are shown in some of the characters. I completely understand where your coming from with regards to white knighting and fanboyism and that is not fun as it can really ruin fandoms even make it feel like an unsafe place and thats not right at all as every one has the right to like who ever they want in series and have there favourite couple. Also just because someone likes a different to character to you is no reason to say rude things about that character period. In Asuka's case the only time where I've have gotten angry is people sticking up for Shinji during the hospital scene in EOE and saying that Asuka had that coming to her because of how she behaved during the series, what happened in that scene was awful and should never happen to anyone regardless of their gender and should not be defended at all in my view.

Shinji Ikari

Most fleshed-out, developed character in the series. But I suppose that's a common benefit of being the main protagonist. More importantly though, I can relate to him the most on a personal level, and that's what makes NGE truly great in my eyes.

Edit: also Pen-pen because he is the sole representative of penguins in the show and I just really appreciate that.

My favourite? Mari, as anyone should be able to figure out. DarkBluePhoenix basically nailed every one of the points I'd have brought up, so... props to you, man. You beat me to the punch.
Go Team Green/Pink/whatever Mari's team is!

silvermoonlight wrote:In Asuka's case the only time where I've have gotten angry is people sticking up for Shinji during the hospital scene in EOE and saying that Asuka had that coming to her because of how she behaved during the series, what happened in that scene was awful and should never happen to anyone regardless of their gender and should not be defended at all in my view.

I'm not surprised that people would defend that action. I find what Shinji did reprehensible, and totally undefendable, and you're right, no one, no matter how mean, deserves that kind of treatment, and I do agree with your earlier point of her behavior not being excusable as a fan.

Now I am an avid fan of Asuka's (not a white knight however), but she's my third favorite character behind Mari and Kaji, and she was my introduction into the series. But no matter how much I like her, I can never defend all her actions towards anyone, especially Shinji. She treats people with an indifference that is, well, fucking awful. She treats Shinji like a retarded dog, and makes him jump through hoops because she's bored. He does it for her because he can't stand up for himself, but that's a different discussion for a different night. However, I can find redeeming qualities in just about anyone, even Gendo, and after learning about her past, and why she is how she is, and what looks like an attempted suicide, I can't really hate her for it. She's just a hurt little girl who needs someone to understand her, and unfortunately, she gets the short end of the stick when it comes to that (Shinji is anta baka, and denser than tungsten, and Misato sees her as competition for Shinji's affections).
However her redeeming qualities don't make up for what she's done to those around her, they just make her actions understandable. Sorry Asuka, it's true.

Needless to say, I can understand the criticism that Asuka deserves, and don't see a problem with it, as she is not the nicest character, and she certainly shouldn't be treated on the level of an anime Jesus, like Goku. (Who is as bad a parent as Gendo is, hell those two could be brothers, which would make Gendo a Raditz), but because she is a tough as balls character in the west, she will be viewed favorably over the more demure, and infinity nicer Rei, or the kooky and mysterious Mari.
However, don't make fun of Mari or Rei, cause that's just not cool.
Shinji however, does deserve some criticism though. If my dad gave me a giant robot and made me live with two hot women, I'd be so high on cloud 9, I wouldn't be complaining about a damn thing. I'd actually be wondering if I died and went to heaven.

My list of favorite characters is here:
http://forum.evageeks.org/post/842466/Whos-your-favorite-Eva-character/#842466
My list of hated characters is here
http://forum.evageeks.org/post/842461/Whos-your-least-favorite-Evangelion-character/#842461

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:I'm not surprised that people would defend that action. I find what Shinji did reprehensible, and totally undefendable, and you're right, no one, no matter how mean, deserves that kind of treatment,

To my mind this is purely personal misjudgement on Shinji's part; nothing is done to Asuka, so it should have little or no effect on her other than to make her pity or despise him according to how she feels. But I'm not inclined to explain my view further further right now.

pwhodges wrote:To my mind this is purely personal misjudgement on Shinji's part; nothing is done to Asuka, so it should have little or no effect on her other than to make her pity or despise him according to how she feels. But I'm not inclined to explain my view further further right now.

I'm pretty sure that jerking off over a comatose girl who has her breasts exposed is at a minimum an invasion of privacy, and considered by most to be lewd and disgusting. It's by no means a simple misjudgment. His misjudgment was not covering Asuka back up after her hospital gown came undone.

Now regardless of Shinji's fragile mental state after killing Tabris, he was asking Asuka for help, and telling her that she was the only one he could trust because he was afraid of both Misato and Rei. But she won't respond. So after he shakes her to get his attention, he accidentally exposes her and then, in true Shinji fashion, takes an opportunity he would probably never had, thinks only of himself, and does what he wants regardless of the consequences. It is certainly a scene where Shinji's selfish nature comes into play, just like in Episode 9 when he tries to kiss Asuka while she's sleeping, but what stopped him then was her crying out for her mother. Shinji, I think, was finishing what he started that night.

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:I'm pretty sure that jerking off over a comatose girl who has her breasts exposed is at a minimum an invasion of privacy, and considered by most to be lewd and disgusting. It's by no means a simple misjudgment. His misjudgment was not covering Asuka back up after her hospital gown came undone..

I agree he should have put her robe back on and left the room, the fact that he locks the door to the hospital room in my view says it wasn't a misjudgement error and that he knew just what he was doing and locked the door so he could get away with it. I have heard some people say that Asuka might have been awake but might had closed her eyes because in the anime shots her eyes are wide open but when he pulls her over there closed in EOE. There also a chance that she could have been medicated which meant she couldn't physically move or react and she even makes a reference to his jack of fantasies in human instrumentality which might imply that she knew he had done it.

silvermoonlight wrote:...the fact that he locks the door to the hospital room in my view says it wasn't a misjudgement error and that he knew just what he was doing and locking the door so he could get away with it.

I never noticed he locked the door, I think I was too shocked at what was happening to even notice. I usually skip the scene and go straight into the movie so I don't have to see it, as once was enough. But I just re-watched the scene (on mute) and he really is a selfish little asshole. I'm glad however he didn't do anything more (or worse) with the door locked, otherwise, well, he'd be on my most hated list for that, and totally unredeemable.

silvermoonlight wrote:I have heard some people say that Asuka might have been awake but might had closed her eyes because in the anime shots her eyes are wide open but when he pulls her over there closed in EOE.

I always assumed she learned that form his memories from instrumentality . Mein Gott, I hope she was unconscious, otherwise Shinji is just continuing the metal anguish that she already went through after Arael and the mind rape, Misato ignoring her pain, and finding out Kaji is dead. I'd feel worse if she knew what he was doing as it happened. But, your theory is sound, as it looked like her pulse rate was increasing on the hospital monitor they showed during the scene, indicating she was under stress, (going from 90 to 93 during the shot) and aware of what was going on.

Ultimately a rather conveniently staged scene to deepen Shinji's spiral of despair and self-loathing. The real question is where the fuck are Nerv's medical personnel. Why could Shinji just waltz in there to begin with, let alone accost the patient, lock the door, and beat one out?

Amusingly, later on Asuka seems mostly upset by the fact that Shinji has just been jerking off to her all this time and not willing to go any further. If the hospital incident specifically bothered her, she has a funny way of showing it...

Well, Asuka's reaction is of course, right in line with her psychological issues. She never gets the amount of attention she wants, which also happens to never be enough. She believes that if Shinji can well, do that, he can go all the way. That's why they would make the perfect couple, albeit a highly dysfunctional one. Anno clearly wrote their psychological issues and outward personalities to be in direct contrast with each other, while also keeping the basic traumas they both experienced (dead mom, witnessing said mother's death, asshat father) and their inward personalities the same, making them like a true representation of Yin and Yang.

And clearly the NERV staff is either all on a massive coffee/smoke break, or are all off doing what Shinji was doing. Or, in all seriousness, they could believe that Shinji is not really a threat (based on his passive attitude), or they witnessed the event and simply didn't give a shit.

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:Well, Asuka's reaction is of course, right in line with her psychological issues. She never gets the amount of attention she wants, which also happens to never be enough.

I personally think her saying that was because she was at such a low point mentality and its part of her own self hated and self loathing surfacing and its more of a mental lash out like you hate me so why didn't you just go all the way? I don't think she wanted it at all but then this is one of Asuka's problems in that any attention is fine even if its really negative and harmful.

And clearly the NERV staff is either all on a massive coffee/smoke break, or are all off doing what Shinji was doing. Or, in all seriousness, they could believe that Shinji is not really a threat (based on his passive attitude), or they witnessed the event and simply didn't give a shit.

Yeah I never got that ether I mean even the manga they come running the moment Asuka goes mental and wakes up and tries to strangle Shinji...again though I don't agree with her strangling Manga Shinji because he's really nice I sort of got the impression that she was medicated and somehow reliving what her mother did to her as a child I don't think she was even aware that it was Shinji she was hurting.

I'm 99% sure they did mention sedating her in the manga, a few pages after she jumped on Shinji. So, logically the sedation was wearing off when Shinji visited, and the competent manga NERV staff jumped in to protect both pilots from harm.

Now if I had to choose between EoE and the Manga version of that scene, I much prefer the manga scene.

I also have to say, I've been on here a week, and I'm sooo enjoying it.

Soryu. I understand why she acts like she does but I can't with her. Her past it's an explanation for her actions, but it can't be a justification. I don't know, I never really got her popularity.

My favorite is Misato followed by Asuka.

Something about the dichotomy of being a great combatant leader and tactical operations chief versues her everyday life of a woman who is struggling to keep it all together while falling apart.

Kit wrote:great combatant leader and tactical operations chief

Misato isn't a great tactica or leader by any means. It's just that Adam's Children literally don't have metaphysical brains so Nerv can get away with pretty much anything.