I wouldn't expect the general reception to change until the film series is complete, TBH.

Bagheera wrote:I cannot for the life of me understand how a 7-8 out of 10 is considered a "disappointing effort".

It might have something to do with anime ratings on a number scale is similar to video game ratings on a number scale; there's never anything below a 7 so you have to skew the rating to make 7-10 the new 1-4. It's still dishonest but looking at the actual stats behind the votes for Q, I think most people did a fair job of rating it honestly (I was pessimistic before checking the stats and thought the 7 "average" rating was from being tied between voting it 10/10 and 1/10) by legitimately voting in the middle numbers, more so on IMDB than MAL but I've learned not take MAL too seriously on anything since they have such a high opinion of Shit Art Online.

Guy Nacks wrote:Well, if you're trying to address the thread title, it would be helpful to present some form of information in the form of statistics to present your case, which numbers just so happen to do.

This video does a good job explaining why I dislike review ratings. Number ratings can do well pointing to or summing up ones own individual thoughts on the film, but they are not thoughts in it of themselves. Linking to a bunch of random digits out of digits in a discussion such as this lacks any of the context from which those ratings were decided upon by the individuals.

Numbered scales are inherently wrong in regards to criticism.

Works that tend to be entertainment focused first will score high ratings because they fulfill the basic duties.
Works that tend to challenge the viewer or be a little more substantial thematically or intellectually won't score as high because the not all viewers want to be engaged in an active discussion.

1.0 & 2.0 are more focused on being pure entertainment.
3.0 is focused on being something more.

Not surprising to see the third film has a lower score. Does not mean it's a lesser film.

Guy Nacks wrote:By that rationale, then 3.0 is objectively the "least amazing" of any of those entries....which even I disagree with because IMO the "least amazing" film Anno ever made was 1.0 for basically duplicating about 80% of the animation from episodes 1-6 of the series. (I'd even argue that 1.0 is possibly the least artistic thing Anno's done in his entire career. Even D&R had some creative editing in Death and 20 minutes of new animation in Rebirth.)

This is reasonable if you assume that most of Jo is regurgitated NGE, but on close inspection it doesn't really hold up. There are many things about Jo that are different from NGE, sometimes in ways that only become significant in retrospect. For example, Unit 01 doesn't defend Shinji from falling lights at the beginning. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but in truth it's out first clue that the entire metaphysics of the setting (and the role of Unit 01 in the story) is radically different from that of NGE. You can also look at subtle character bits from Shinji -- he doesn't apologize as much, he's more stubborn and combative, etc. It's little stuff, but when you take it in conjunction with what's in Ha and Q you see that he is a vastly different character from NGE's Shinji. And of course that's the brand new stuff, like the contract with Lilith, the Kaworu stuff, and so on.

There's an exhaustive list on the wiki here, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone had done a shot by shot comparison. It's a much different movie than people tend to assume on first viewing.

I guess the best descriptor possible would be that, generally, 3.0 is the least liked of all of those films.

I don't think you can really get that from numbers, but even if you could that's still a far cry from saying the film is disappointing or Anno's worst work. And, from a purely technical standpoint, I don't think it's a defensible claim. People here talk about Q a lot more than they did about Jo, for instance, and Q seems to be a lot less divisive than Ha was. I mean, yeah, we do have the trolls who keep going on . . . and on . . . and on . . . and on about how fucked and irredeemable Shinji is, but apart from that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of rancor regarding Q. That was not true for Ha (and, amusingly, for many of us Q managed to heal the rifts Ha created, since it led us to view that movie in a very different light).

Gendo'sPapa wrote:Numbered scales are inherently wrong in regards to criticism.

Works that tend to be entertainment focused first will score high ratings because they fulfill the basic duties.
Works that tend to challenge the viewer or be a little more substantial thematically or intellectually won't score as high because the not all viewers want to be engaged in an active discussion.

1.0 & 2.0 are more focused on being pure entertainment.
3.0 is focused on being something more.

Not surprising to see the third film has a lower score. Does not mean it's a lesser film.

On a scale from "Nagging Wife Demanding That I Pay More Attention To Her" to "White Noise Machine I Fall Asleep To," I give Eva Q a solid "Death Whispers Quietly In My Ear While I'm Trying To Paint" rating. Sorry, it just wasn't as "Rain Pattering On My Window" as Evangelion 1 and 2 were.

Actually, what you say makes way too much sense.

Bagheera wrote: People here talk about Q a lot more than they did about Jo, for instance, and Q seems to be a lot less divisive than Ha was. I mean, yeah, we do have the trolls who keep going on . . . and on . . . and on . . . and on about how fucked and irredeemable Shinji is, but apart from that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of rancor regarding Q.

Well, when that's all you hear about Q from the trolls, it's hard to get the motivation to want to watch it in the first place, or even root for the characters anymore. "Darkness induced apathy" and all.

Don't get me wrong, I want to know what happens in Final, but as of now, it's not a priority that much anymore.

And I hope those subtle differences with Shinji at least help in a determining factor with him in Final.

Come to think of it, would the original Shinji, if he was in Rebuild, fair any better than his Rebuild incarnation? Hmmm, food for thought.

Yep I'm still not pleased with it. "You have to wait until it's finished completely before judging it" isn't good enough for me. You can be incomplete and still be a good entertaining film stand alone. Empire Strikes Back certainly was. This is not. And expecting an audience to wait for literal years for the film to make sense is just being unrealistic.

The films are going to be out there in complete form for far, far longer than people will have been waiting and complaining and making judgments about an unfinished work. That's just how it works. The immediacy of having a razor-edged opinion NOW feels so good, I'm sure, but your opinion also has a definite expiration date, at which point it will require significant revision if it's to have any real value. I guess I just don't see much point in being terribly committal, given the situation.

Reichu wrote:The films are going to be out there in complete form for far, far longer than people will have been waiting and complaining and making judgments about an unfinished work. That's just how it works. The immediacy of having a razor-edged opinion NOW feels so good, I'm sure, but your opinion also has a definite expiration date, at which point it will require significant revision if it's to have any real value. I guess I just don't see much point in being terribly committal, given the situation.

3.33 essentially feels like a Deathly Hallows: Part 1 or a Mockingjay: Part 1, or a fucking Breaking Dawn: Part 1. It's like this one, long, protracted finale was cut in half and made into two films. The fundamental problem is that we have SO MANY changes to the established canon of the Rebuildverse as of 3.33 due to the timeskip that the film feels schizophrenic: It's simultaneously a new beginning and the first act of the ending at the same time.

^ That's odd, especially since 3.33 has way more of a fleshed out 3-act structure than any of those other films that you've listed, and had an ending that I wouldn't mind being the actual final word on the Eva series if it came to that, which is also something that isn't true for the other movies you've mentioned. This isn't simply my opinion, either. The stability of a 3-act structure and the amount of closure in a narrative's ending are things that can and should be objectively analyzed. This isn't a form of my subjectivity saying "I like this," or "I dislike that." This is simply the bare bones facts of the film before I express my opinion of it.

That's odd, especially since 3.33 has way more of a fleshed out 3-act structure than any of those other films that you've listed, and had an ending that I wouldn't mind being the actual final word on the Eva series if it came to that,

What the hell Freaky? Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

Eva Q's ending had closure to it. It wasn't "the happiness that Shinji was looking for," in fact it was a little more like the ending to Brazil or Chinatown as far as emotional tone goes, but there was closure nonetheless.

Besides, I find it immensely powerful that after all Shinji did, Asuka still thought enough of him to take him in at the end. There's even some form of forgiveness happening there.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Eva Q's ending had closure to it. It wasn't "the happiness that Shinji was looking for," in fact it was a little more like the ending to Brazil or Chinatown as far as emotional tone goes, but there was closure nonetheless.

Besides, I find it immensely powerful that after all Shinji did, Asuka still thought enough of him to take him in at the end. There's even some form of forgiveness happening there.

I think that's why I'm not too antsy about 3.0+1.0 -- the characters are nuanced enough that what comes next is fairly obvious, which means all we're left with is the window dressing of the plot and the specifics of Shinji's recovery. If one fails to grasp that nuance I suppose Shinji's position at the end would seem very insecure, though.

^
I trust Anno enough, that he manages to not take the obvious route, or at least makes it interesting enough, despite the basic plot.
He could really use the last movie for a deep-dive into Shinji's psyche once again - I imagine a 30 minute long first arc, wandering the red earth - something akin to Episode 4.

I think 3.33 is a great film but my problem with it is that I have no idea what happened in between and I would have liked to have at least one or two flash backs shown through Asuka or Mari's characters even if they were just short snippets of battles As its clear that those two picked up the role of killing and stopping angels in this alternative universe in Shinji's absence. I do have faith though that Anno is going to fix this in the final instalment and all three films will just click and make sense. Also this is a miner point but its gotten to me in every film thus far, I know little or nothing about Mari's character and in the final film I would very much like that resolved granted I've read the Manga I know she could be two people ether Asuka's older step sister or the Mari who was in love with Yui but never had the affections returned as Yui liked Gendo. Ether way its an issue I want resolved because one massive downside of the character right now is that because not much is known about her, she's coming across in places as a sexualized anime stereotype and there only for fan service and its really annoying as I know Anno can write characters beyond there stereotypes as shown in the Evangelion series.

I never really had an issue with the third movie, or any of the Rebuild movies for that matter. That doesn't mean its not without its faults.

silvermoonlight wrote:Also this is a miner point but its gotten to me in every film thus far, I know little or nothing about Mari's character and in the final film I would very much like that resolved granted I've read the Manga I know she could be two people ether Asuka's older step sister or the Mari who was in love with Yui but never had the affections returned as Yui liked Gendo. Ether way its an issue I want resolved because one massive downside of the character right now is that because not much is known about her, she's coming across in places as a sexualized anime stereotype and there only for fan service and its really annoying as I know Anno can write characters beyond there stereotypes as shown in the Evangelion series.

I totally agree with you on that point. Mari did not have enough screen time, and seeing as the movies keep trying to indicate that she's important, it's a big plot hole that needs to be filled, and she really deserves more than just being for fanservice.

Now, another plot point I cannot wrap my head around is that Misato hates Shinji for what he did. Does she forget she was encouraging him to pilot Unit-01 for himself, and that her encouragement came right before he set off third impact? Clearly she did, because she should hate herself as much for thinking that way, as she hates Shinji for actually doing the deed. Or maybe she does, and she blames Shinji for actually taking the only advice she ever gave him that was worth listening to.

Asuka is another point I don't understand. Does she really hate Shinji? She knows that Rei liked him, and that Shinji may have liked her back, or is this just her jealous streak showing through. Mari's line of her missing Shinji in some way indicates this, and maybe she's just pissed because, even from a sealed container, Shinji and Unit-01 still helped her out. Or she's pissed because he never tried to save her like he did Rei while the Dummy System tore her apart.

Hell, everyone hates Shinji. People he knows, and people he doesn't (save for Sakura). Does no one give him any credit for trying to save Rei, who went out with and N² mine and a damaged Unit-00, only to be devoured alive by Zeruel, after she, in turn, saved Mari, and Shinji just wanted to save one of the few people who was nice to him? They blame him for trying to do something good, which ends up being bad. (The road to hell is paved with good intentions.) I think they should try to be more understanding, considering their hypocritical position of trying to clean up the mess they created while still working with NERV (looking at you Misato and Ritsuko), I think they should give Shinji a bit of a break. Because clearly the hatred is a bit out of context.

There was no Kaji, is he dead? Will he show up in final? I hope so, he deserves more than just being ignored, and somehow I think he is the founder of Wille. But without him showing up, we just don't know.

Finally, there is the fact it appears Wille is using an Angel as its primary means of defense and needs an awakened Eva to be used to its fullest. Clearly these people at Wille are just full of contradictions.

Like I said at the beginning, it's still a good movie, but it could have been better.

If I had to rate the movies
1.0 - 97/100 for being a nostalgia trip and making Rei's first smile even cuter, loses points for having Misato be complicit in NERV's dealing (knowing about Lilith being a big point here)
2.0 - 95/100 for officially introducing Mari, but it loses points for changing Asuka's name and almost killing her at Shinji's hand.
3.0 - 94/100 for being a good movie (Eva in space, Mari being able to embarrass princess) but losing points for everyone and the rest of humanity hating Shinji, and the plot holes mentioned above.

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:Now, another plot point I cannot wrap my head around is that Misato hates Shinji for what he did.

It's by no means certain that she does. She hates what happened - who wouldn't? - and she realises that Shinji's unexpected powers make him extremely dangerous, even if he doesn't know it, so naturally she treats him severely.

As for some of your other points, you can get a good picture of my views on them from my fic (see sig), in which Shinji says words that are in your signature.

Well I dont really hate it but it sure turned things into a complete mess and was like a complete opposite thing from what Eva used to be. It went from the serious sci-fi epic bible thing into TTGL territory.

Shark Knight wrote:Well I dont really hate it but it sure turned things into a complete mess and was like a complete opposite thing from what Eva used to be. It went from the serious sci-fi epic bible thing into TTGL territory.

Well, I'm conflicted about the movie but even I wouldn't go that far.