Lennik wrote: Don't you see the arrogance in claiming that these people don't know what they're doing with their own intellectual property just because you personally don't like it?

Do you think it's arrogant for a film critic to criticize a movie too? They can do whatever they like with their intellectual property, that doesn't mean they know what they are doing (see George Lucas). The creators themselves admitted they did things like introduce Mari without having any clue what to do with her later on or even what her character was supposed to be like. In two movies, she has 0 development. Most of those interviews can be found in this same site.

I will give you another example: George RR Martin. His first three ASOIAF books are a clear departure from the last two, which ramble on needlessly and without getting anywhere, and he himself admitted to writing himself into a knot he's struggling to get out of. So really, what I would tell you is to look at a work critically, not as a fanboy. Being the creator of a work doesn't make you infallible.

None the less, there are plenty of people who think that 3.33 is a proper and worthwhile continuation from the previous two films. If they are convinced it works, is it reasonable to say that the authors fooled themselves?

It's all in the perspective. I've seen many situations where an author or creator has found gold with a series, but then lost it along the way: the spark just wasn't there anymore.

^
That is true, and Anno did mention that he did go through another bout of depression after the completion of Q. Authors struggle with their work all the time, and whether it's good or not depends on perspective. That's what art is, that it creates multiple reactions and interpretations instead of just one depending on the observer.

Note that the depression may be a consequence not of the writer's unhappiness with what they've written, but of the state their characters are in and what they have been through. Although I am not liable to depression, I can relate to that possibility because of the feelings I had while writing. It is not appropriate to argue or even imply that Anno's being depressed means that he felt that the writing was inadequate - maybe it had that effect because it was so good!

^

Well, that's even better then, because it shows that Anno is empathetic to the suffering of his characters, and not some cold-hearted author that gets kicks of putting his characters through "unbearable suffering" like so many people insist. He's writing what he's writing for a reason, not for some mindless nihilism.

xanderkh wrote:[...]nihilism.

I find it hard to associate Anno with any kind of nihilism - from hawaian nietzsche-ism (while this sort of Nietzsche has actually nothing to do with Nietzsche) to post-existencialism. Anno was to this day anything BUT nihilistic. He went the same way Nietzsche did - fight nihilism with negativity and create something new from it. Anno has a liberal view on classic existancialism but thats it.
Especially if you don't look at him in isolation of EoTV.

And lets not forget the numerous bible references, the advanced Nadia plot and other things. Yes, 3.0 is kind of bad - but atleast it is Evangelion. And 2.0 was more harmful then 3.0 on this regard. So to say 3.0 is fanfic - is like ignoring that 2.0 went up to 11.

edit: What i meant by nihilism that Anno fought was the way he made Shinji and countered everything till the last seconds. That and some other reason make it clear that Anno is anything but nihilistic.

Evangelion 3,99: You Can Redo Forever and Ever is the best rebuild-inspired fic in my book :)

Rommel wrote:Do you think it's arrogant for a film critic to criticize a movie too?

Only if that critic calls a filmmaker's work fanfiction of their own work.

Rommel wrote:They can do whatever they like with their intellectual property, that doesn't mean they know what they are doing (see George Lucas). The creators themselves admitted they did things like introduce Mari without having any clue what to do with her later on or even what her character was supposed to be like. In two movies, she has 0 development. Most of those interviews can be found in this same site.

And you take this detail about Mari to mean they don't know what they're doing with the central story? Let's flip your statement around. Just because you don't like what they are doing doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.

Rommel wrote:I will give you another example: George RR Martin. His first three ASOIAF books are a clear departure from the last two, which ramble on needlessly and without getting anywhere, and he himself admitted to writing himself into a knot he's struggling to get out of.

Does this make his last two books fanfiction?

Rommel wrote:So really, what I would tell you is to look at a work critically, not as a fanboy.

The implication being that if I don't think writers are writing fanfiction of their own work when they write something I don't like, I'm a fanboy? You're arguing against a point I'm not even making. I'm not talking about the quality of work. I'm saying that if an author is working with their own intellectual property, then it is by definition not fanfiction. Whether you like what they're doing with it or not does not change that fact, not one tiny bit.

But back on topic, I thought Reticence was pretty good. My only gripe was with Misato's characterization. I thought it ignored the nuance of her portrayal in Q, only paid attention to the negatives, and made her far harsher than she was canonically, to the point where it made the character unrecognizable. And the fact that she never actually tells Shinji she's sorry really bothered me by the end. Sure, she publicly acknowledges that she's treated him unfairly, but never does she utter the words "I'm sorry," which I felt made their reconciliation fall a little flatter than I would have liked. Aside from that, it's a very grueling fanfiction in all the right ways by dealing with Shinji's journey from his sad state at the end of Q to a real hero.

Of course, the RxS shipping freaked me out a little, seeing as she's his sister and everything. They gave equal time to developing AxS to make it an interesting love triangle that's left open-ended, and I'm glad it didn't get a full resolution, but the fact that the author went with the arbitrarily popular "Rei's not that related to him" angle bothered me too.

Finally got around to reading Reticence. On chapter 14 and it's actually pretty good, although I am kind of disappointed that Rei Q was basically killed off. Lennik, bruh, you summed up all of my grievances with Misato thus far.

I originally dropped this fic at chapter 2 due to suspension of disbelief being broken too many times to sustain. Started at chapter 4 this time and have enjoyed how things have been playing out, but Shinji has ever so steadily stopped feeling like Shinji. It's caught between him developing naturally and then having wildly inconsistent reactions to people and events.

We need more Rebuild fics.

EDIT: Just reread chapters 1 and 2. I remember now why I initially dropped Reticence. The author is very heavy-handed with Asuka's (and later Misato's) hate for Shinji.

I enjoyed Reticence. I did think Misato was fairly heavy handed at the start but then she developed quite well throughout it. Wasn't too big on the love triangle aspect I suppose, but that's just because I am a full on AsukaxShinji fan and I'm not mega into the idea of love triangles as it is but aside from that it was well written and it was kept open ended enough for people to have their own interpretation so not a deal breaker.

There does however need to be more Rebuild fics out there, aside from Reticence and the one cyharding posts on here I can't really think of too many.

I did have a go myself at writing one, I do intend on doing a sequel to it but I need to get another thing out of the way first.

Well, Ray is trying to write one, on this forum. But it goes slow and doesn't get much recognition.