Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:09 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:1.) Which is a valid motivation, movie creators have families to feed too. Plus some fans of various properties do like seeing multiple different incarnations of said property and will gladly pay for it and justify its existence.
2.) Whether she fits the role is subjective and for all you know she genuinely is artistically interested in the property.
3.) No one is directly harmfully effected by it in anyway, the most it will effect Asians is the thoughts "that's annoying" or "that's disrespectful" its meaningless, it will have no lasting effect on anyone or anything and some saying it ill effects the source material need to also note it will bring more attention to the original whether it is good or bad, which is always a good thing for a property to gain more notoriety.


Eh? People who don't get work because of it are directly harmfully affected by it.

And again, if your sole objective is making money "selling out" is the proper term. Everyone wants to make a living, but there are ways to do that without betraying your ideals or hurting other people.
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:10 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It becomes a lot less puzzling once you (...)

All that did occur to me, yes, but there's only so much cynicism I can spew in a day before my meter needs recharging.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And again, if your sole objective is making money "selling out" is the proper term.

That... doesn't even make sense...
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby movieartman » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:38 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Eh? People who don't get work because of it are directly harmfully affected by it.

And again, if your sole objective is making money "selling out" is the proper term. Everyone wants to make a living, but there are ways to do that without betraying your ideals or hurting other people.

But the Asians that aren't getting work from this film, aren't going to get any anyway, they don't sell, general audiences won't go see a movie for any Asian actor or actress working today. I hate that, but its a fact of life. Blame the audience not the companies, companies can't stay in business if what they create won't make back the money it takes to create them and then some.

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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:56 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:But the Asians that aren't getting work from this film, aren't going to get any anyway, they don't sell, general audiences won't go see a movie for any Asian actor or actress working today. I hate that, but its a fact of life. Blame the audience not the companies, companies can't stay in business if what they create won't make back the money it takes to create them and then some.


That's actually not true (there's some A-list Asian talent out there), and it's irrelevant anyway: saying someone isn't harmed when they're snubbed for a role for which they're ideally suited in favor of someone who is not suited to the role is non-sensical. The potential for work is there, and they're not getting it; that's harm no matter how you slice it, and that's leaving aside the damage done to the community by such a decision.
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby El Squibbonator » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:22 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It becomes a lot less puzzling once you look at the population demographics of each respective group in the U.S. (i.e., there aren't enough Native Americans around to voice much in the way of complaints, and the ones who are have pretty much zero pull in the industry. Not so with black Americans).


Doesn't mean other people won't raise a stink about it. That's thought to be one of the factors that sank The Lone Ranger in 2013.
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:35 am

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:Doesn't mean other people won't raise a stink about it. That's thought to be one of the factors that sank The Lone Ranger in 2013.


I think the issue there was the fact that people thought it sucked, coupled with the fact that it went way over budget (to the point where no amount of success could make it break even). Whitewashing was a partial issue there, but it's offset by the fact that a) Depp might actually be part Native American and b) he did a decent job of portraying a Comanche onscreen. I mean, hell, he even got the language right.

So yeah, maybe, but that film had so many other issues that any controversy surrounding it was a drop in the bucket by comparison.
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:53 am

So....has anyone commented on the fact that the studio making the new GiTS movie hired an FX studio to try and make ScarJo look more Asian?

...is anybody else starting to see why I think the whole process for making this film is so troubling?
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:02 pm

Yeah, we've been talking about it in the GitS thread for the past couple of days.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby El Squibbonator » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:46 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:So yeah, maybe, but that film had so many other issues that any controversy surrounding it was a drop in the bucket by comparison.


OK, OK, bad example. But I think even people who aren't Native Americans are perfectly capable of knowing an offensive portrayal when they see one. Especially if that portrayal is a remake of a movie that contained a song called "What Made The Red Man Red?"
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Ray » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:53 pm

Max Landis (Chronicle, Superman:American Alien), did a great video talking about the Ghost In The Shell Casting.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=747cvo8Lkjw
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:10 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Max Landis (Chronicle, Superman:American Alien), did a great video talking about the Ghost In The Shell Casting.

I'm not really sure what the point of that video was. Find myself siding with the comments remarking how Landis' apologetics could just as easily be applied to slavers or something. 'Blame the system, not the people enabling and profiting from it!' Oh, lawl.

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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Ray » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:37 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwDqbDp6SGc

Landis Publishes A Follow Up Video Clarifying his opinion, and he gets genuinely angry.

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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby NemZ » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:54 pm

The whole fear metrics thing breaks down to the studios believing that the audience is racist, and the enormous pressure caused by the ridiculous expense of making a modern film causes them to cater to what they think the audience wants.
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby robersora » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:48 am

I wasn't sure, where to post it, but I ultimately felt, that this thread was more fitting than the GITS Live Action Thread.
What do the Japanese think?
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Bagheera » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:07 am

^From that article:

"Japanese manga fans have commented that if viewers wanted a Japanese cast, the film should be made in Japan. Another Japanese fan mentioned how casting a non-Japanese, Asian actress in the role would be more offensive to Japanese viewers but would still probably placate most American audiences. "

Bam. Called that. Whitewashing sucks, but treating Asians like they're interchangeable is even worse, and we've been seeing a fair bit of the latter in critics of whitewashing in this and the GitS threads.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Tarnsman » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:49 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:but treating Asians like they're interchangeable is even worse


Is it equally wrong to cast a Swede to play a Russian? Or a Brit to play a German? Or a Brit to play an American? Or a Guatemalan to play a Mexican? Or a Mexican to play a Cuban? Or a Persian to play a Jordanian? Or an American to play a Rwandan? Or a Beninese to play a Sierra Leonean? Or do only Asian people have cultural differences between country to country?
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:23 pm

Silly Tarnsman! Don't you know that only white people are interchangeable?

That was snarky of me, I acknowledge. It is, however, a dig at that people (read: the loudest ones) only seem to care about casting choices that are based primarily on external ethnicity when it comes to people who aren't white. And this is understandable, given the cultural baggage that exists in America! It wouldn't be honest of me not to acknowledge the cultural stereotype of "all middle-eastern/black/east Asian people look alike", and how this perhaps factors into the perception that it's not okay to cast a Korean in a Japanese role just because they look similar.

And at the same time, I will continue to make digs at the outrage that pops up each time it happens. Imagine if every time an X-Men movie came out there was someone whining about how an Australian actor was playing a Canadian. (Sacrilegious, I know. Somebody burn Bryan Singer at the stake!) At the end of the day, actors are actors and you want somebody who looks like the character you want to portray.

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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Bagheera » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:59 pm

View Original PostTarnsman wrote:Is it equally wrong to cast a Swede to play a Russian? Or a Brit to play a German? Or a Brit to play an American? Or a Guatemalan to play a Mexican? Or a Mexican to play a Cuban? Or a Persian to play a Jordanian? Or an American to play a Rwandan? Or a Beninese to play a Sierra Leonean? Or do only Asian people have cultural differences between country to country?


:shrug: If the point of the exercise is to show sensitivity to minority groups it pays to actually listen to what they have to say on the matter. But as a point of order I actually do think it's good practice to get ethnically appropriate people to play characters with a specific ethnic background (which is why I have always wanted to see Elektra played by someone who's Greek -- she's specifically Greek, so she should be cast accordingly). Otherwise we get actors with shitty accents who mangle languages they don't actually speak, which is just painful for everyone.

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:And at the same time, I will continue to make digs at the outrage that pops up each time it happens. Imagine if every time an X-Men movie came out there was someone whining about how an Australian actor was playing a Canadian. (Sacrilegious, I know. Somebody burn Bryan Singer at the stake!) At the end of the day, actors are actors and you want somebody who looks like the character you want to portray.


Good luck with that when you're casting a white woman to play a Japanese.

I still don't know why they didn't just localize it. Would have saved everyone a bunch of headaches. Heck, they could even call the progag Mary Schneider or something as a nod to the meaning of the original name.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby Ray » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:06 pm

I predict the movie will bomb domestically due to the controversy. But the Asian Box Office will make the movie successful.

Proving once again that the biggest obstacle to Asian actors getting into lead roles in big Hollywood movies. Is the Asian Market.
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Re: Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

Postby backseatjesus » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:39 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I still don't know why they didn't just localize it.

Because people would have still complained.


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