Kaji on the phone?

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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:27 pm

View Original PostKvanu wrote:Oh come on.


Dude, seriously, knock it off. Your attitude isn't helping here.

"Citing Lilith as the source of the Angels with no mention of Adam" is an OMISSION OF MATERIAL FACT. They're technically not wrong, they just left out the rest of the puzzle.


No, that's not true. They are very much wrong, as Lilith is not the source of the Angels. The source of the Angels is Adam. That part of the RCB is just flat out wrong.

They didn't say "Ramiel is the source of the Angels." - that would be an error in an addition of material fact.


It's just as erroneous to say the source is Lilith.

Any errors of additions of material fact? Going once, going twice? You can't compare the two. They fact that on two separate occasions, they went out of their way to TELL us who was on the show (as if they show doesn't make it obvious enough) is critical.


I'm glad you think so. But since one of those occasions is a film book from 20 years ago and the other is a DVD booklet I don't consider it a particularly compelling case.
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Kvanu » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:41 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, that's not true. They are very much wrong, as Lilith is not the source of the Angels. The source of the Angels is Adam. That part of the RCB is just flat out wrong.

I'm glad you think so. But since one of those occasions is a film book from 20 years ago and the other is a DVD booklet I don't consider it a particularly compelling case.


Considering that the show itself got Lilith wrong on at least two separate occasions...

"A film book from 20 years ago", yeah, maybe because the show in question is 20 years old.

Like I said, the evidence presented in the show itself is in and of itself 100% conclusive. I don't know why it's so hard for you to accept that it was Kaji on the phone. It's like someone who is adamantly against admitting Ritsuko and Gendo had sex because we never saw them do it and Gendo nor Ritsuko ever made mention of the word sex. It's like someone saying "he used my body" is "not a compelling case", or "too ambiguous to analyze". It's like someone being shown confirmation of them having sex in a film book that states so, and then replying "That's simply an assumption that whoever wrote the book made. A filmbook has been wrong before. Not a compelling case! Not a compelling case!"

You are being that someone right now.
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:07 pm

View Original PostKvanu wrote:Considering that the show itself got Lilith wrong on at least two separate occasions...


Characters in the show got it wrong, which is not the same thing. The show itself made no such error.

Like I said, the evidence presented in the show itself is in and of itself 100% conclusive.


This conversation would go a hell of a lot easier if you would lay off of the dogmatic remarks. It's not 100% conclusive, it's just something we can say is likely based on the VA. That's it. I mean, hell, this thread came up because you insisted Kaji was responsible for putting Misato in danger during the Jet Alone incident because we know for a fact that he talked to Gendo one day, and none of that holds up -- we don't know that he talked to Gendo that day, and even if he did we don't know he had anything to do with the plan to sabotage Jet Alone, and even if he did that we do know that Misato wasn't supposed to be involved in the plan,

So, the point you keep evading: there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to hold Kaji accountable for Misato's actions in Episode 7. He was not responsible for putting her in danger, nor for her choice to get involved, and that's leaving aside the fact that he probably had nothing to do with the plan in the first place and only might've been the one who obliquely referenced it during a telephone call with Gendo. You keep going on and on and on about how Kaji was on the phone when the point is that it doesn't matter.
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Sachi » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:12 pm

@Kvanu: Bags is not wrong when he points out your attitude. If you can't engage with those that disagree with you in a friendly manner, then I suggest dropping the subject and moving on. Remember that not everybody needs to be convinced of your point of view.
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Kvanu » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:15 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:This conversation would go a hell of a lot easier if you would lay off of the dogmatic remarks. It's not 100% conclusive, it's just something we can say is likely based on the VA. That's it. I mean, hell, this thread came up because you insisted Kaji was responsible for putting Misato in danger during the Jet Alone incident because we know for a fact that he talked to Gendo one day, and none of that holds up -- we don't know that he talked to Gendo that day, and even if he did we don't know he had anything to do with the plan to sabotage Jet Alone, and even if he did that we do know that Misato wasn't supposed to be involved in the plan,

So, the point you keep evading: there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to hold Kaji accountable for Misato's actions in Episode 7. He was not responsible for putting her in danger, nor for her choice to get involved, and that's leaving aside the fact that he probably had nothing to do with the plan in the first place and only might've been the one who obliquely referenced it during a telephone call with Gendo. You keep going on and on and on about how Kaji was on the phone when the point is that it doesn't matter.


I thought we jumped off blaming Kaji for JA after Nemz so correctly clarified that Gendo was telling Kaji not to get involved.

It's not just the VA. The phone conversation:
    Features Gendo thanking someone for doing him a favor, which only Kaji has done
    Features that someone talking about fooling the UN, which we know Kaji was working for
    Kaji and Gendo are depicted talking on the phone the very next episode after, in which Kaji is doing yet another favor for Gendo
    Features Kaji's VA
    Features someone talking relatively flippantly towards Gendo, which only Kaji has done
    Features someone talking in the same delivery that Kaji uses (If you've watched any other shows with Yamadera in them, its clear that he as several voices that he uses for different characters. The fact that he used this specific voice (The Kaji/Spike Voice) for this scene is conclusive enough
    The filmbook goes out of it's way to confirm it's Kaji
    The BD Booklet goes out of its way to confirm it's Kaji

Saying that the 'someone' on the other end isn't Kaji, in light of all this circumstantial evidence, is akin to saying that Ritsuko and Gendo never had sex.
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby mammaluser » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:50 pm

In which book do they say that lilith is the source of the angels? (Death and rebirth or EoE)
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Postby Neil-T » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Kaji on the phone?

View Original Postmammaluser wrote:The person to whom Gendo is speaking on the telephone sounds like Kaji, and is played by Kaji's seiyu, Koichi Yamadera, but it's probably impossible to say for sure whether its actually supposed to be Kaji, or if its just another example of economy in casting.


It definitely sounds like Kaji. If it's just economy, though, I've fallen into the same trap as when I watched the short film Another Impact on Khara's Animator Expo website. I heard Yamadera's voice there and thought "Is that Kaji!?"

But it was one of the first of the shorts I watched, so I hadn't yet realised it was just that he and Megumi Hayashibara (Rei) are the only two cast members in them. :facepalm:

It's tricky, because episode 4 of NGE features train announcements read by (to my ears) seiyu Yuko Miyamura and Fumihiko Tachiki, but I doubt that's meant to imply that Asuka and Gendo have part-time jobs as platform announcers!

(It might make a good gag manga strip, though.)
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:01 am

View Original Postmammaluser wrote:In which book do they say that lilith is the source of the angels? (Death and rebirth or EoE)


It's in the Red Cross Book, which is the theatrical guide to EoE. I linked to it earlier in the thread.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Neil-T » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:02 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The Essential Evangelion Chronicle, Side A . . . specifically says Gendou's conversation is with "an unidentified individual" without going on to suggest it's Kaji.


If only I'd read it sooner...

I only just reached page 80 of my copy of the book. It covers NGE episode 8, and states:

The mystery person Gendoh was talking to on the phone in the prevoius episode turns out to be Kaji.


That's surprisingly straightforward and direct!
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:46 am

View Original PostNeil-T wrote:That's surprisingly straightforward and direct!


Indeed. Well, fair enough; if it's in Chronicle that's good enough for me.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Dima » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:09 am

View Original PostNeil-T wrote:
That's surprisingly straightforward and direct!


Now we can give this a rest...
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:30 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Indeed. Well, fair enough; if it's in Chronicle that's good enough for me.

Just a thought: maybe you should actually read the thing before putting your unwavering confidence in it.

Seriously, I can't Fuyutsuki facepalm hard enough at this thread.
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:38 am

I simply heard the voice and the demeanor of it, and assumed it was Kaji. That's also pretty straightforward. I mean, I understand a limited cast doing multiple voices for loudspeaker announcements and phone operators and such, but those actors don't usually carry over another character's personality into an unrelated loudspeaker announcement. (Megumi Hayashibara and Yuko Miyamura may have done loudspeaker announcements for NGE's world-building, but they didn't announce things like Rei or Asuka would in those moments.) Koichi Yamadera did carry over Kaji's personality to the voice on the phone, on top of simply vocally sounding familiar. I think this alone is the evidence needed to reach an unwavering conclusion about the voice on the phone.

Outside sources like Chronicle reaffirming this already evident fact are nice and reassuring and all, but not necessarily needed to prove the point at hand. There was enough material in the show proper to reach that conclusion. (Even prior to reading this thread I always assumed that it was Kaji on the phone. And then I would forget all about it until I re-watched the episode.)

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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:50 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Just a thought: maybe you should actually read the thing before putting your unwavering confidence in it.

To be fair, how much do you expect such specific information on one episode to be in the write-up of another? Hindsight is great!
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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:00 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:To be fair

I think I'm being perfectly fair. I consult various sources in a different bloody language and find two of them that address the issue and happen to say the same thing. Bagheera lazily says "nope, not good enough!" and places unwavering trust in the holiness of the thing on his shelf (based on... who the heck knows what), which he can't even be bothered to crack open himself despite it being in English. (This is, what, the second time someone else has needed to tell him what's in the book that he owns? What's the point of even having it? Ugh.)

Not remotely surprised about my previous comments regarding the obfuscatory habits of Evangelion literature being substantiated.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I think I'm being perfectly fair.


I disagree. We're talking about a reference work here, not a novel, so it's not reasonable to expect people to read it cover to cover (particularly if they don't have the time to do that as obsessively as you do). By your logic we should have read every single entry in a dictionary we own, or memorized everything in the CRC and Groundwork books! I'll bet you haven't done that, even though you can read the language, so why would you expect it of anyone else?

Further, if you've read Chronicle in its entirety (and the whole thing, no less, vs. the compilations that are Side A and Side B), why didn't you say something earlier in the thread? Would have saved us all a lot of trouble. Of course, if you're like most people and you don't memorize the content of every book you own that's fair enough, but you should extend others the same consideration.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Dima » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:23 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I simply heard the voice and the demeanor of it, and assumed it was Kaji. That's also pretty straightforward. I mean, I understand a limited cast doing multiple voices for loudspeaker announcements and phone operators and such, but those actors don't usually carry over another character's personality into an unrelated loudspeaker announcement.


But but this doesn't prove anything! Rei also voiced Pen Pen! What is that ''personality'' you talk about?

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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Neil-T » Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:59 am

I've got to agree with Bagheera.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:We're talking about a reference work here, not a novel, so it's not reasonable to expect people to read it cover to cover (particularly if they don't have the time )


I got my copy of Side A on pre-order but then had to put it on the backburner. Truth be told, I actually didn't even unwrap it until I got Side B some nine months later.

People learn new stuff every day, and that includes about Eva. New evidence comes to light and shifts opinions. Just like I mentioned in a previous post, I held one opinion of a character voice in Another Impact, only for a single new fact to sway my opinion in the complete opposite direction.

As someone who got into Eva through Rebuild, I must admit it never even occurred to me that it might not be Kaji on the phone to Gendo. Even a lack of prior knowledge can ironically offer a different perspective on something.

That's how I see it, anyway.
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Re: Kaji on the phone?

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Postby Sachi » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:09 am

I wonder how many dubs picked up on that as well and casted accordingly.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:17 pm

^I must have seen the series 30 times and it never once occurred to me that it was Kaji's VA on the phone. I just thought it was some other random guy in the shadowy conspiracy that is Nerv.
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