OA vs DC again

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OA vs DC again

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:02 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I don't disagree, but my post was specifically commenting on the fact that the commonly available versions of the OA episodes are actually not the original OA episodes at all, but are (almost entirely) the DC footage with OA editing. The true OA episodes have overwhelmingly ugly artwork and bad animation, and, on top of that, have never been remastered. They definitely prepare the viewer for the EoTV trainwreck much better than the "false OAs" do. :nyao:


I've been a fan of NGE for 17 years now...and maybe I've seen what you're talking about and maybe I haven't...Just for the sake of my curiosity, could you PLEASE give a small break down of what you mean??

To clarify, I've seen only the English Releases: VHSs, The "perfect" collection (first ADV DVDs), the Platinum Collection featuring both the OAs and DCs (second ADV DVDs), and the Manga release of the Movies, (and by extension the Funimation 1.11-3.33 DVDs but that's not part of this question).

With that in mind, can you please elaborate??? Any info you can give will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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Re: Introjection/Weaving a Story 2

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:46 pm

In the Platinum collection (Renewal in Japan), the OA episodes were not restored from the original but recreated by back-editing from the restored DC episodes, which meant they got some improved animation that was not theirs by right. The content in terms of the story is the same, though, so I think too much fuss is probably made about it. The new DVD Archives box contains restored versions of the original, so everyone can be happy again.
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Re: Introjection/Weaving a Story 2

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Postby Eliaskar » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:12 pm

This is the first i've seen of people being purists and prefering the OA versions, why is that? I don't understand, if the DC versions add more material and improve the quality of the animation, how could they be worse?

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Re: Introjection/Weaving a Story 2

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:16 pm

I imagine it's for the reasons MugwumpHasNoLiver explained earlier
MugwumpHasNoLiver wrote:The original AO versions of 21-16 have a charming, improvisational quality uniquely their own. They're rough, almost child-like, and have a purity of intent that could have only come from the moment of their creation: working under harsh deadlines, with cut funding, comprised details and depression in resurgence. The stability of the narrative has become irreversibly wobbly and, at times, it has the tragic, madcap quality of a man on with his head in noose trying to keep balls in the air while stopping the stool from falling out beneath him. The narrative speeds up, compacts, and abstracts. It's a different final movement to Eva, but a no less vital one.
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Re: Introjection/Weaving a Story 2

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:08 pm

Also, some people think the additions change the story - especially those people who don't subscribe to concurrency. So the OAs lead into 25/26, whereas the DCs lead into EoE (25'/26') which has a different conclusion. And of course, you could also argue that the very fact that Gainax (and even Khara) kept both versions available implies that they are different in a fundamental way.

The fact that the animation got improved in places relative to the 'real' OAs might alter a certain aspect of the charm of the series, but doesn't affect the outcome - which presumably is why Gainax were happy to make the Renewal (Platinum) OA equivalents that way.
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Re: Introjection/Weaving a Story 2

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Postby NemZ » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:30 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Also, some people think the additions change the story


This. The added and altered stuff changes how you interpret the older material, and is thus a retcon.
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Re: Introjection/Weaving a Story 2

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:36 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:This. The added and altered stuff changes how you interpret the older material, and is thus a retcon.


It's more accurate to say the DC edits can change how you interpret the older material, not that they necessarily do. Between the incomplete nature of the OA episodes and the fact that much of their content was open to interpretation it's just as possible that the DC material actualizes interpretation that were there all along. It is, as Anno indicates, all down to the individual viewer.
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Re: Introjection/Weaving a Story 2

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Postby cyharding » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:47 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Also, some people think the additions change the story


I thought the DC cuts were the official version of those episodes. I remember reading a review of them when they came out (this was before the platinum edition) and the reviewer stated that while the additional material wouldn't give a direct answer to many longstanding questions, it was "the definitive version of the maddest 3rd act in anime."
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Re: Death/Rebirth; EoE

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Postby cyharding » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:58 pm

So the question for me is even though I have the DC episodes, is D&R still something that is worth seeing as a film in and of itself? If that's the case, I'm SOL on being able to see it.
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Re: Introjection/Weaving a Story 2

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:21 pm

I suspect this argument [re OA and DC episodes] would never have kept going if the OA episodes had not continued to be published alongside the DC ones.
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Re: a new viewer's reactions [and a little concurrency drama]

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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:36 am

Bagheera wrote:It's more accurate to say the DC edits can change how you interpret the older material, not that they necessarily do.


While that's a reasonable assessment for some of the changes (off the top of my head, you could reasonably infer Asuka's feelings for Shinji without the added focus given in 22', or you could not) it overlooks the fact that some of the changes in the DC episodes are not only additions, but revisions which drastically complicate their relationship with the OA episodes. From seemingly innocuous background details in 23'--such as the elevator shaft in Terminal Dogma evolving from a stylized wallpaper of neon double helices into a decaying honeycomb, and the unceremonious Eva dumping ground re-imagined as an elaborate Sephiroth shaped death-pit--all the way up to the lake scene in 24' and the rewritten Seele dialogue during Kaworu's descent: details which complicate both their motives and, following the logic of the OA episode, can only be read as a gaping plot hole.

It's tricky. I wonder if people exposed to the DC episodes first go into the OA versions with different biases.

Eliaskar wrote:This is the first i've seen of people being purists and prefering the OA versions, why is that? I don't understand, if the DC versions add more material and improve the quality of the animation, how could they be worse?


While part of me wants to say the DC episodes and EoE, being Anno's final utterance on the subject of Eva, ought to take precedent over the OA episodes, another part of me thinks the revised material isn't only a clarification of the original ending, but a response to it. They each have fundamentally distinct forms of underlying logic which lead them to two noticeably different conclusions. Not that I want to be willfully obscurantist here, because my reading of both EoE and EoTV is that they, more or less, depict the same events, but several factors--could be Anno's emotional state, the reaction to EoTV and D&R, being allowed more time with the material and thus finding connections he previously had not made--lead to Anno coloring those two versions of the same events in radically different light.

Thus far the bulk of the debate between EoE and EoTV is that, because they differ so drastically emotionally they must show different outcomes, or because they're both about rejecting instrumentality, you could somehow fit EoTV into gaps between EoE. Neither is a position I would take. What I find counterproductive about this debate is that we're only discussing the endings with the mordantly inefficient geek vocabulary, and not taking into account the realities of the creative process. One isn't more canon than the other, the revisions aren't retcons, and the two don't diverge into alternate universes. (If anything were to come after them, say Rebuild sequel theory being correct, then this would be a debate worth having in terms of that later, derivative work, but thus far, each ends only in itself.)

Shinji's self-actualization in EoTV results in a wave of literal earth-shattering joy, while in EoE it's far more guarded, almost resigned. Much of the traumatic material from EoE being (excised is a poor word, so...) simply not present, combined with Shinji allowed a triumphant victory over his own self-loathing, leaves EoTV a happy ending which is, emotionally speaking at least, comparatively unambiguous. The true OA episodes having a distinctly more cutesy, cartoon-like art style reflects this comparative easiness in a subtle way. What EoTV says is 'Come out of your shell, it's worth it to live in the real world. Your friends will love you and everyone will be happy. What EoE says is 'Come out of your shell. Life is hard. People are difficult. You're always going to doubt yourself, and change is painful, but ultimately rewarding.' Frankly, I think that one ending builds off the other in this not quite contradictory, but definitely asterisk-affixing way is emotionally honest. That first step out of depression does feel triumphant. Keeping it at bay is hard. You do frequently come close to relapse. It can be a real trial to stay out of that quagmire, and sometimes it's unavoidable and you doubt yourself over and over. More than anything, I would argue the difference in tone between the two endings represents Anno's evolution not only as an artist, but a person.

I'm reminded of William Faulkner, who wrote in the final volume of his 23-years-in-the-making Snopes trilogy that he noticed several contradictions between this last book and the previous two, but asked that you kindly overlook them because his understanding of not only his characters, but the human condition, had changed significantly in that time. This is to the say nothing of his masterpiece The Sound and the Fury, which has at least three different versions, due to the possible inclusion of an appendix he wrote twenty years later. The original is obliquely Freudian, regarded as a difficult novel for its stream of consciousness, time displaced narrative and abrupt ending. The appendix, written in Faulkner's later densely historical style greatly expands upon the lineage and life of the central family, clarifies certain events, but misremembers others. (Does young Quentin climb down a drainpipe or a tree branch, to steal her uncle Jason's savings? Is it hidden in the closet, or the dresser drawer?) It contains conflicted readings of half the central cast. Characters who are spiteful are painted as rational, characters who are Oedipal is painted as honor-bound. It's a grafted limb with a self-contained sense of instability, and--if you let it--can fundamentally alter your reading of a text whose gradual reveal of information was already so controlled, any sudden change is radically transformative. The first reprinting included the appendix first, as a stylized obituary, and it front-loads the reader with the life and death of every character, leaving them with perhaps too firm a material foundation on which to delve into the isolation of their subjective experience. It was later reprinted with the appendix at the end, giving it final say in a grimly ironic way. You can argue the appendix as a different work from the original novel, or you could argue it as the long delayed final chapter. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that you now have three versions of the same novel, and none of them are more valid than any other. Who decides? Academics? Publishers? The version with the appendix first is out of print. Who's going to stop you from reading the appendix first anyway? There's precedent for it.

For me at least, the only honest way to read Eva is semi-pluralistically. Whenever I rewatch it, part of me feels obligated to do it in the order of 1-26, then 21'-24' (sometimes with Death, because that's a piece I haven't entirely made up my mind about) & finishing with EoE. In some ways, the DC edits & EoE exist in a nebulous space between rewrite and derivative work, because of that tantalizing mixture of clarification and contradiction. They exist knowing episodes 21-26 already formed a completed movement, maybe something of an abberance wrought by circumstance, but undoubtedly with a life of their own. Thus, no longer compromised by lack of resources, Anno could expand upon his original intended ending, but it would be done beneath the specter of his previously completed ending. Taking that into account, you could make the argument that the DC cuts in some odd way continue from both episode 20 and from 26, spiraling back onto themselves in a self-elevating matter but that could be difficult for the overly-literal minded to wrap their heads around, so I will expound no further upon what I hope is this last tantalizing detail.
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Re: a new viewer's reactions [and a little concurrency drama]

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Postby NemZ » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:31 am

I can agree with the reactionary vibe, and certainly we can read Rebuild as yet another such reactionary evolution of the theme, but I don't agree the ending is identical. Intentionally swerving in a different direction to make a new but related point feels like a very Anno thing to do, but even if he did intend them to be the same I am forced to disagree with that conclusion.
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Re: a new viewer's reactions [and a little concurrency drama]

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:55 am

View Original PostMugwumpHasNoLiver wrote:While that's a reasonable assessment for some of the changes (off the top of my head, you could reasonably infer Asuka's feelings for Shinji without the added focus given in 22', or you could not) it overlooks the fact that some of the changes in the DC episodes are not only additions, but revisions which drastically complicate their relationship with the OA episodes. From seemingly innocuous background details in 23'--such as the elevator shaft in Terminal Dogma evolving from a stylized wallpaper of neon double helices into a decaying honeycomb, and the unceremonious Eva dumping ground re-imagined as an elaborate Sephiroth shaped death-pit--all the way up to the lake scene in 24' and the rewritten Seele dialogue during Kaworu's descent: details which complicate both their motives and, following the logic of the OA episode, can only be read as a gaping plot hole.


Well, that's certainly true. 24' is a curve ball no matter how you look at it, and it's hard to view the Angel tower and flash of GNR as anything other than "WTF?" in 23'.

Thus far the bulk of the debate between EoE and EoTV is that, because they differ so drastically emotionally they must show different outcomes, or because they're both about rejecting instrumentality, you could somehow fit EoTV into gaps between EoE. Neither is a position I would take. What I find counterproductive about this debate is that we're only discussing the endings with the mordantly inefficient geek vocabulary, and not taking into account the realities of the creative process. One isn't more canon than the other, the revisions aren't retcons, and the two don't diverge into alternate universes. (If anything were to come after them, say Rebuild sequel theory being correct, then this would be a debate worth having in terms of that later, derivative work, but thus far, each ends only in itself.)

Shinji's self-actualization in EoTV results in a wave of literal earth-shattering joy, while in EoE it's far more guarded, almost resigned. Much of the traumatic material from EoE being (excised is a poor word, so...) simply not present, combined with Shinji allowed a triumphant victory over his own self-loathing, leaves EoTV a happy ending which is, emotionally speaking at least, comparatively unambiguous. The true OA episodes having a distinctly more cutesy, cartoon-like art style reflects this comparative easiness in a subtle way. What EoTV says is 'Come out of your shell, it's worth it to live in the real world. Your friends will love you and everyone will be happy. What EoE says is 'Come out of your shell. Life is hard. People are difficult. You're always going to doubt yourself, and change is painful, but ultimately rewarding.' Frankly, I think that one ending builds off the other in this not quite contradictory, but definitely asterisk-affixing way is emotionally honest. That first step out of depression does feel triumphant. Keeping it at bay is hard. You do frequently come close to relapse. It can be a real trial to stay out of that quagmire, and sometimes it's unavoidable and you doubt yourself over and over. More than anything, I would argue the difference in tone between the two endings represents Anno's evolution not only as an artist, but a person.


This is an incredibly apt way of putting it, and pretty much what I've come to expect from you, Muggy. Thank you for not disappointing me! :asuka_thumbsup:
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Re: a new viewer's reactions [and a little concurrency drama]

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:57 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:but even if he did intend them to be the same I am forced to disagree with that conclusion.

Because.........?
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Re: a new viewer's reactions [and a little concurrency drama]

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Postby NemZ » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:11 pm

Because I see them as different. If he meant for them to be seen as the same then he simply failed.
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Re: a new viewer's reactions when it all tumbles down

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:17 pm

He would only have failed if the majority of the audience thought that way
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Re: a new viewer's reactions [and a little concurrency drama]

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:17 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Because I see them as different. If he meant for them to be seen as the same then he simply failed.


I think Muggy makes a pretty good case for why he didn't.
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Re: a new viewer's reactions when it all tumbles down

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Postby NemZ » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:46 pm

I already answered Muggy directly.

Frankly your interpretations of Muggy's interpretation of Anno's interpretation is just too far down the rabbit hole for me to give a damn.
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Re: a new viewer's reactions when it all tumbles down

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:57 pm

And what would be far down enough for you to give a damn?
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Re: a new viewer's reactions when it all tumbles down

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:57 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I already answered Muggy directly.


Yes, and in doing so you didn't refute any of his points, while he addressed yours preemptively. The point about how the endings are the same, yet different, is particularly apt. They're both about responses to depression, and are thus inextricably linked -- fussing about the plot in light of that is silly and counterproductive. I feel a little foolish having wasted so much time doing so in light of that.
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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