Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:43 pm

^^Spoiler added as courtesy to OP.

That one's not a good example as it's also in the official subs, and you need to go to fan translations to get the real intent.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:46 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Acting wise saying they where complete crap is stretching like they are complete crap compared to what?

Guess you could compare them to the best of dramatic acting in American cartoons from around the same timeframe. Batman: The Animated Series and Gargoyles come to mind as things I've actually seen. There's no comparison, really.

I was under the impreasion that generally the translation problems are usually about back story things. Like could I get examples. Like has translation problems ever really confuse things about the characters specifically in huge ways?

You said "I've never read a good explanation or thereoy that could not be understood or have been figured out just using the dub", without comment on what specific kinds of explanations or theories those were. The dub causes problems, there's no doubt about that. If you want to talk about characters specifically, then it gets a lot more complicated, since information about the characters isn't conveyed through just the translation of the dialogue, which the dub doesn't always get right, but through nuance of performance, which the dub very frequently gets wrong. Dub supporters might argue that the cumulative differences are insignificant, but I suppose this all depends on what one considers "significant" in the first place. (Such disagreement would make it difficult to create a "master list" of problems with the dub that doesn't immediately get booed and ripped to shreds.)

In any case, if you're going to analyze NGE in depth, you really ought to cut out the middle man and deal with the Japanese version directly. Serious Bible scholars don't stop at the King James version.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:49 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:In any case, if you're going to analyze NGE in depth, you have to cut out the middle man and deal with the Japanese version one way or another.

And that, for most of us, inevitably means using a translation, whether spoken and heard or written and read. Often the subs contain similar errors or the same as the dub (for instance, the EoE one mentioned); and some people would rather just start by watching the show to get the broad view than spend time discussing which fan subs to use, where to get them, or how to use them.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Eliaskar » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:51 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:^^Spoiler added as courtesy to OP.

That one's not a good example as it's also in the official subs, and you need to go to fan translations to get the real intent.

How about as another example:

SPOILER: Show
When Misato tries to comfort Shinji regarding Rei's death in Episode 23, the Sub gives the impression that she is pulling the moves on him, whereas the Dub removes that impression.

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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:57 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:And that, for most of us, inevitably means using a translation, whether spoken and heard or written and read. (snip)

Good thing we have people around who know some Japanese and can explain the pros and cons of various translations. Platinum translation is also well-accepted as a safe default for the TV series, being wooden to a fault but way, way more accurate than the dub.

some people would rather just start by watching the show to get the broad view than spend time discussing which fan subs to use, where to get them, or how to use them.

What you're replying to was specifically not in the context of getting started (for that, re: my first post in the thread). It was about analyzing the show in depth, as a result of zlink's claim that the dub is perfectly fine for that purpose, which it totally isn't.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby CarlosIXA » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:10 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Yeah that factoid won't influence your general understanding of the characters and once you learn that you just keep it in mind going forward. Also for sake of og poster use spoiler warnings.


How about this;
SPOILER: Show
While in the Sea of LCL scene of Episode 26', Shinji and Rei have a dialogue about how, if Shinji were to stop Third Impact and return people to their individual state, the walls of their hearts would close off and they would feel pain once more. In the subs, Shinji goes ahead with the separation of humanity because he's okay with the fact that his heart will be closed off as well and he'll become afraid of people once more. However, in the Dub and even the official subs mistranslate the scene to the point where it plays off the idea that Shinji is choosing that humanity become separate entities once more simply because people will feel pain and fear once more. The dub essentially plays him off as a sadistic sociopath for this, wanting to inflict pain onto others, despite it being the complete opposite intention and direction of the scene at hand. This is something which would fundamentally influence one's general understanding of Shinji specifically.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:22 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Guess you could compare them to the best of dramatic acting in American cartoons from around the same time frame. Batman: The Animated Series and Gargoyles come to mind as things I've actually seen. There's no comparison, really.


Lol if you wanna do that I'm gonna say Eva is in good company. But lets put this into perspective anyways. I'm only gonna talk batman cause I've watched that a lot and I haven't seen gargoyles in years but I'm pretty sure most of I say will apply to gargoyles as well.

Season one of batman never gets anywhere near Evangelion in terms of subtlety and intensity. And it is those categories specifically is where the Dub actors really shine. The DCAU never gets anywhere near Eva in that regard until at least near the later episodes of justice league and by that time those actors have had literal years to practice their characters. The eva Dubb actors had a harder job and one run to get those characters down. Considering that they did extremely good and much better job than most of the voice acting in batman season 1. And I'm not trying to convince you. Only I guess defend the actors lol since I think they did really good acting wise as far as expressing themselves. To say complete crap is just exaggeration, especially for the 90's.


View Original PostReichu wrote:You said "I've never read a good explanation or thereoy that could not be understood or have been figured out just using the dub", without comment on what specific kinds of explanations or theories those were. The dub causes problems, there's no doubt about that. If you want to talk about characters specifically, then it gets a lot more complicated, since information about the characters isn't conveyed through just the translation of the dialogue, which the dub doesn't always get right, but through nuance of performance, which the dub very frequently gets wrong. Dub supporters might argue that the cumulative differences are insignificant, but I suppose this all depends on what one considers "significant" in the first place. (Such disagreement would make it difficult to create a "master list" of problems with the dub that doesn't immediately get booed and ripped to shreds.) In any case, if you're going to analyze NGE in depth, you really ought to cut out the middle man and deal with the Japanese version directly. Serious Bible scholars don't stop at the King James version.



I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The bold part is exactly what I had in mind. If this wasn't at least partly true I would be incapable of understanding anything you guys write since, everything I read is with in the context of the dubbed, because it's all I've watch, but that is not the case. And yes I trust you and I don't speak Japanese so I'm sure there are parts that where acted better in the Japanese version as far as clarity goes but I think that pretty much everything can be figured about the characters just using dub since pretty much most of it is not dependent on one moment acting. And the moments that are weaker then Japanese part still work in the given contexts.


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SPOILER: Show
Well the acting on Misato part during that scene was very awkward and the brevity of that scene will give people red flags on first viewing so they will look deeper if they try to understand it. And in light of what happens in EOE and all the other evidence through out the show you can figure it out using the dubs.
Last edited by zlink64 on Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:22 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:I've never seen the sub not even once and I prefer dubbs in generals so that's my bias.


While I appreciate your honesty in admitting your bias, I hope you can understand why some of us would look askance about claims made about the superiority of subs or dubs from someone who hasn't seen both. My general response to your claims would be "if you haven't seen the subs how do you know you're not missing anything?" Because you really don't.

View Original PostCarlosIXA wrote:How about this;


This plays into the nuance mentioned by others, and I've noticed it shapes people's opinions of the characters a great deal. People who have the strongest negative opinions about the characters (any of them) are usually dub watchers, whereas sub watchers tend to have more nuanced views of them. This is not exclusive, of course -- plenty of dub watchers catch the nuance in the characters, not because of performances but rather because a lot of Eva's story is visual. This means that observant individuals will pick up on what's going on regardless of dub or translation. But even so it's fair to say the English dub tends to exaggerate the characters' negative qualities, so that's something to keep in mind when deciding how you're going to view the series.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:25 pm

Carlos I hate to sound narcissistic and really this is just my confidence. I think I have a very strong understanding of
SPOILER: Show
instrumentality and how that relates to Shinji (And base off how you describe the dub I wanna say you failed not the dubbed. And really anyone who got sociopath from that.)
and I did that using just dubs.

@bags and yes to some of what you said. Thank you for explaining pretty much what I was thinking. But for Carlos example really the dialogue is actually pretty clear and the conclusion he says people make has more to do with the viewer than the dub or sub.

And yeah totally I understand lol no worries. The reason I know I'm not missing stuff is because of these forums. What I think aligns with what people say. Like it's not just me in the world you know. Also I never wanted to say it was superior to the subbed or the OG Japanese only that harsh criticism of it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Last edited by zlink64 on Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:39 pm

View Original PostCarlosIXA wrote:How about this;
SPOILER: Show
While in the Sea of LCL scene of Episode 26', Shinji and Rei have a dialogue about how, if Shinji were to stop Third Impact and return people to their individual state, the walls of their hearts would close off and they would feel pain once more. In the subs, Shinji goes ahead with the separation of humanity because he's okay with the fact that his heart will be closed off as well and he'll become afraid of people once more. However, in the Dub and even the official subs mistranslate the scene to the point where it plays off the idea that Shinji is choosing that humanity become separate entities once more simply because people will feel pain and fear once more. The dub essentially plays him off as a sadistic sociopath for this, wanting to inflict pain onto others, despite it being the complete opposite intention and direction of the scene at hand. This is something which would fundamentally influence one's general understanding of Shinji specifically.

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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:09 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote: People who have the strongest negative opinions about the characters (any of them) are usually dub watchers, whereas sub watchers tend to have more nuanced views of them.


Also forgot to mention but I'm pretty sure you are just assuming this
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:17 pm

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:What


I never took that reading from it, but I've seen that perspective argued in interviews and such. I've heard it a few times now (though I have no idea how common it is).

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Also forgot to mention but I'm pretty sure you are just assuming this


I'm speaking from personal experience, so no. This is what I've observed. I can't say that it's necessarily representative, but it is the pattern I have observed (and the typical Japanese take on the main cast seems to back it up).
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:23 pm

Going by personal experience is assuming.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:30 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:the typical Japanese take on the main cast

First thing that popped into my head upon reading this is how Rei is popularly interpreted in Japan as an idealistic passive and demure female, despite this not being what Anno was going for at all. Who knows what other misguided "typical Japanese takes" might exist.

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Going by personal experience is assuming.

So we should use our psychic powers to go by the experiences of others? :chinscratch:
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:35 pm

Um no...you should just not make a really general assumption like that....especially when you already have a bias and your assumption coincidentally reinforces your bias. Like eva is pretty big fan base right and you just gonna lump opinions of people who you have no idea are dubber or subbers. Like it makes no sense.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:37 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:First thing that popped into my head upon reading this is how Rei is popularly interpreted in Japan as an idealistic passive and demure female, despite this not being what Anno was going for at all. Who knows what other misguided "typical Japanese takes" might exist.


I wasn't suggesting they got what he was saying, just that they didn't view the character the way Western audiences tend to (though the dissonance isn't as bad with her as it is with Shinji and Asuka).

So we should use our psychic powers to go by the experiences of others? :chinscratch:


Exactly. Any comment we make on the subject is subjective by nature, so personal observations are all we have to work with. So, absent evidence to the contrary, I'll go with what I've actually observed. Mileage may vary for others of course.

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Um no...you should just not make a really general assumption like that....especially when you already have a bias and your assumption coincidentally reinforces your bias. Like eva is pretty big fan base right and you just gonna lump opinions of people who you have no idea are dubber or subbers. Like it makes no sense.


I know that most Japanese listened to the Japanese dub and that most Americans listened to the U.S. dub, so it isn't a stretch to assume that attitudes toward the characters were at least partly influenced by the dubs (particularly when commentary on the characters in each region reflects elements of the dubs that do not exist in the other region). This is easy enough to see when you watch both versions, which is why I cautioned against commenting on the matter when you've only seen one.
Last edited by Bagheera on Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:39 pm

Yeah but that is like so big an assumption it really doesnt do anything at all....It's a very weak opinion at best.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:43 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Yeah but that is like so big an assumption it really doesnt do anything at all....It's a very weak opinion at best.


That seems more like an assumption on your part than a legitimate counterpoint. Since you haven't even seen the subs how are you even equipped to comment on the matter? You literally don't know what you're talking about!
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:51 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Um no...you should just not make a really general assumption like that....especially when you already have a bias and your assumption coincidentally reinforces your bias. Like eva is pretty big fan base right and you just gonna lump opinions of people who you have no idea are dubber or subbers. Like it makes no sense.

You're assuming that such assumptions are being made without knowledge of how somebody watched the show, which is not necessarily the case. There have been countless threads where people's proclivities (dub/sub/both) and their impressions of the characters have been discussed. One might have actually shown the show in more than one form to fellow humans in the flesh and noticed significantly different reactions based on the which language track was used.

Short of conducting a number of scientific polls on the matter, or attempting to collect data from across the Interwebs, individual generalization is all we have. Everyone does it, including you, because there's other way we'd be able to deal with the vast amounts of data thrown at us throughout our lives.

---

Going back a little: you earnestly claiming that Eva's original dub voice acting is on par with Batman or Gargoyles leaves me to believe we're on different planets or something. I'm to believe that actors with years of experience doing a variety of work are no better than whoever Matt Greenfield could corral into the recording studio of his fledgling company? I don't know about you, but I can sure as hell hear the difference in experience. If Evangelion had been given to competent hands in the first place, it might have a Ghibli dub sort of reputation instead of the "lol 90s anime dub" we got stuck with [insert finishing statement here that doesn't promptly get shit on].
Last edited by Reichu on Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Never seen Evangelion before - Dub or Sub?

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:57 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:
I know that most Japanese listened to the Japanese dub and that most Americans listened to the U.S. dub, so it isn't a stretch to assume that attitudes toward the characters were at least partly influenced by the dubs (particularly when commentary on the characters in each region reflects elements of the dubs that do not exist in the other region). This is easy enough to see when you watch both versions, which is why I cautioned against commenting on the matter when you've only seen one.


whoah whoah slow down. What you are talking about I have not commented about at all. You are being misleading..I'm pretty sure unintentionally so it's okay. And you are confuse yourself about what it is I'm saying. Just slow it down. You are comparing Japanese viewer/ us viewers to sub watcher/dubb watchres. Two very different things. These aren't directly related.

All I'm saying is that you do not know how many people who have negative opinions of the characters( ex I hate Shinji) have watched the dub or if they are prominently DUb watchers. Like when you say it's mostly dubber that basically assumption/ really really weak opinion. Like every time I see some one write some weird shit "I hate Asuka casue w/e. I never ever see label that's say "I watch dub" on the post....what kinda observation are you even talking about. And like really come on.


@reichu look all I'm saying is it's unfair to critic the dubbing on an assumption. SO basically what it amounts to is this: If you watch dubb you will be more likely to hate characters and we are basing this off an assumption. Do you not see how irrationally anti dub that is. It's like cartoon prejudice lol.
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