Angels in the rebuild

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Asuka1998
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Angels in the rebuild

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Postby Asuka1998 » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:56 pm

I'm guessing there are only 12 angels in the series, but what do they mean by Kaworu turned from 1st to 13th Angel? Isn't Adam the 1st Angel? I'm a little confused over here. Also, are nemesis series considered the 11th Angel?

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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:14 pm

The implication there is probably that Kaworu, like in the original series, had been (an) Adam at one point, but was since degraded to a lesser form. Though, the scene in question also implies that he wasn't the 13th Angel until that very moment in Central Dogma, which is ... confusing.

The Nemesis Series and similar entities encountered in space at the beginning of the film are collectively Evangelion Mark.04. No one really knows what that is supposed to mean.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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pwhodges
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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:13 am

I have half an unformed theory that Kaworu was stripped of his angelhood in some way, becoming at least in some aspects human (he has a humanoid body after all). Just as the Lilin are described as the eighteenth angel in EoE, they could similarly be the thirteenth in this universe. This could also explain the odd (mis?)translation in the dub where he says he has been defeated by the the thirteenth angel (i.e the Lilin, specifically in the form of Gendou whom he described in Ha is the "King" of the Lilin).

Of course, to anyone who understands Japanese, this might be completely unsupportable garbage!
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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby Eliaskar » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:37 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I have half an unformed theory that Kaworu was stripped of his angelhood in some way, becoming at least in some aspects human (he has a humanoid body after all). Just as the Lilin are described as the eighteenth angel in EoE, they could similarly be the thirteenth in this universe. This could also explain the odd (mis?)translation in the dub where he says he has been defeated by the the thirteenth angel (i.e the Lilin, specifically in the form of Gendou whom he described in Ha is the "King" of the Lilin).

Of course, to anyone who understands Japanese, this might be completely unsupportable garbage!

That actually makes quite a bit of sense there, I see where you're going with that. Though, i'm not sure how doing what Gendo did with the spears and Eva 13 etc would suddenly make him like the Lilin though.

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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:46 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Of course, to anyone who understands Japanese, this might be completely unsupportable garbage!

Yeah, man, that's absolutely not what the Japanese says at all. Kaworu was not "defeated by", he "fell to". I made a detailed post on this before, I thought...

Eva is convoluted enough without trying to canonize translation botches that are in an foreign language dub of all things. If you want to make an argument for the 13th Angel being Lilin as opposed to Kaworu specifically, there's got to be a better way to do it.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby Eliaskar » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:44 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Yeah, man, that's absolutely not what the Japanese says at all. Kaworu was not "defeated by", he "fell to". I made a detailed post on this before, I thought...

Is the term "fell to" used as in fallen in rank to the Thirteenth Angel, or perhaps "fell to", as in he has fallen in battle per se, to the Thirteenth Angel?

If its the latter, that may explain why Khara allowed the dub's version of it to be "defeated by", since it would be a clearer version of what they intended perhaps?

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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:53 pm

View Original PostEliaskar wrote:Is the term "fell to" used as in fallen in rank to the Thirteenth Angel, or perhaps "fell to", as in he has fallen in battle per se, to the Thirteenth Angel?

The post I linked to tells you everything you need to know.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby Eliaskar » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:02 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The post I linked to tells you everything you need to know.

Ah, missed the link. Didn't see it, nevermind.

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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:02 pm

You're probably right; though it amuses me that (a) Khara let the other translation pass (if indeed they were involved to the extent we were led to believe), and (b) Khara showed how important an exact translation is to them by also providing themselves the "let me kill you" line for Asuka, even though as I understand it the Japanese doesn't hint at that.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
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Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Re: Angels in the rebuild

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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:13 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:You're probably right; though it amuses me that (a) Khara let the other translation pass (if indeed they were involved to the extent we were led to believe)

Only someone who was involved with the process, or knows a lot about coordinating that sort of thing between two companies, would be able to tell us exactly how it happened, I'd guess. It seems unreasonable to me to think that because "khara was involved", things are going to be perfect. Mistakes and miscommunication are a constant, and considering the language barrier and having to work through intermediaries such problems would be compounded to a degree. Even back in Japan, something having Gainax or khara's stamp hardly guaranteed freedom from error. (The "Red Cross Book" with its Adam instead of Lilith typo is an infamous example of this.)

(b) Khara showed how important an exact translation is to them by also providing themselves the "let me kill you" line for Asuka, even though as I understand it the Japanese doesn't hint at that.

I've noted previously that, when I was working on the fan translation at github, there was not agreement on that particular line. At least one person did in fact suggest "shut up and die", or something close to that. This suggests to me that the phrase Asuka used may have connotations harsher than its literal meaning. I really need to just ask somebody about this and put the matter to rest.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!


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