Do people still hate Evangelion 3.33?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby BC Baron » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:01 am

My hatred for 3.33 was quite strong initially and it has only improved with age.

I've found that, like a fine wine, you gotta let your hatred breathe for a while before serving it at room temperature. Maybe with some imported cheese and assorted fresh fruit.

Wait, where was I? Ah, yes.

To answer the original question, I still hate the last movie, but then again, as it's been pointed out to me countless times, I'm not people.
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:16 am

View Original PostBC Baron wrote:My hatred for 3.33 was quite strong initially and it has only improved with age.

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View Original PostShark Knight wrote:It is great but it suffers from two super important things that it shouldnt lack.

No actual character development and stupid decisions "maybe this could be forgiving on Shinji since he was desperate at that moment but wathevs"

Shinji got royally played by Kaworu. Our 14-year-old asses would have probably made those stupid decisions too if we had been played like that.
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby Shark Knight » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:19 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:
Shinji got royally played by Kaworu. Our 14-year-old asses would have probably made those stupid decisions too if we had been played like that.

This is why I do not trust wierd alien people. But then why did Kaworu changed his mind during mid operation?
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:00 am

The notion that there's no character development in Q is bizarre as hell. Apart from a solid hour of development for Shinji, we're shown a metric buttload of change in the Wunder crew from their depictions in Ha. Just because you don't see the development onscreen doesn't mean it never happened.
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby zlink64 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:11 am

Yeah there definitly character development. Maybe it's not clear because it's being spread through 4 movies so we only get chunks of it per movie. In movies usually a character go from normal state to bad to good. In this movie it's like Shinji just goes from where he's at in the beginning to bad and then it stops there. But him going to bad is still a change so I would count that as the character development.

But I think he might be the only character to have development in the movie.

Or maybe Rei changed a bit too. Seems like she started questioning things after meeting Shinji...at any rate Shinji is the only character that has a lot of character development in that movie.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:38 am

People are throwing around the term "Character development" all willy nilly like. Here's how I feel about the character development in Eva Q:

Shinji's character develops past the point he was at in Eva Ha. He's adapting to new scenarios, learning new skills, and getting over certain unsavory aspects of his past. His development may not end up leaving Shinji in a place where we'd be happy to see him, but he is developing nonetheless. He spends a lot of time with Kaowru during this point, and he in return gets some character development. Not only do we learn more about him, but we also see him become closer to Shinji as the film goes on.

Misato, in my opinion, does not get any character development in this film. Yes, what we see of her is different than what we saw in Eva Ha, and there are some hints as to why that could be and how she may have gotten there, but not even those hints are complete in form, and the actual details of her development are never given to us. Her character, and the characters on the rest of Wille, is presented to us having already developed in the absence of the audience's presence. We did not get to actually see this character development or watch her change and grow through her life experiences, rather we are only shown the results of said off-screen character development. However, I don't see this as a bad thing. The narrative is meant to confuse and disorient the audience through their surrogate character Shinji, and it works beautifully. I also don't think that this is a sign of laziness on the part of the writers, as they still needed to answer the questions of how Misato & Co. changed over time. Like I said, there are some clues and hints in the film that suggest how Misato's changed over the past 14 years. Also, writers generally don't come to the conclusion that a character would act a certain way unless they were convinced on the motivation behind those actions in the first place.

Gendo's developments between the last two films are slight and/or mysterious. Nothing unexpected there. Everything is going as planned.

Fuyutsuki gets some major (if rather abrupt) character development in Q. In the span of one 95min long movie Fuyutsuki goes from following Gendo and taking orders, to going behind Gendo's back in order to tell Gendo's son certain facts about his past. That's some epic development, and I'm surprised no one mentioned it while discussing the character development in Eva Q.

And Rei!Q is a completely different character than Rei II in Eva Ha. Heck, she's even a completely different person. In fact, she even gets visited by what appears to be Rei II's ghost or something in the film. However, Rei!Q still get some development within the film itself, as she starts asking questions as to what she is and who her "real self" is.
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:54 am

View Original PostShark Knight wrote:This is why I do not trust wierd alien people. But then why did Kaworu changed his mind during mid operation?

I don't like subscribing to the whole "Kaworu was manipulating Shinji for negative reasons" thinking. After Shinji pulled the spears, he was clearly "Gaaah, he played us like a damn FIIDDLLEE!!!!"" in regards to Gendo, it just doesn't feel right in regards to who was really pulling the strings.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:54 am

^ Kaworu was upset because Gendo changed out the spears, therefore not allowing Kaworu to execute whatever his plan was. Kaowru certainly has an ulterior motive using Shinji the way he did, and lies were spoken to him as part of it. And I have no reason to think that Kaowru's plan for an Angelic Impact was any different from any of the other Angels who were also trying to use Lilith to cause an Angelic Impact.

Now, what Kaowru might have believed an Angelic Impact might have done for Shinji is another matter altogether.
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Postby Chroma » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:33 am

A lot of the hate for the film that I see comes from the (related and incorrect) assumptions that:
- If a character doesn't act in a way that (the viewer) would act, then the character is badly written/doesn't have character development
- If a character makes a decision or action that is not entirely, 100% rational, beneficial for their goal or "good", then the character is badly written/doesn't have character development
Funny enough, these are the same kind of criticisms that've been thrown at NGE proper. "Why is Shinji such a coward? I wouldn't throw a tantrum and stomp on the Geofront."

Both of the aforementioned assumptions, though, are flawed and incorrect. Irrationality is a very human behavior, as is being ruled by emotions momentarily or for a long time. 3.0 is filled with this: Shinji, Misato, and Asuka being the biggest examples. These characters are very human, quite like they were in NGE (although certainly not to the same extent, because NGE is on a whole different level with that), and it seems as though this bothers people - especially those who (purposefully or unintentionally) self-insert to some extent.

Would I have failed to listen to Kaworu in the climax of 3.0? I like to think not. Would I hold a 14 year grudge against an old friend? I'd try hard not to do so. But I don't think it's right to hold the characters and the writing to the whims and opinions of the viewer. In fact, I almost think it's more important not to, if you want to make them more believable, and more real.
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Postby robersora » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:02 pm

I never understood all the rave for "character development" which especially occurred in Anime fandom (nowadays less so, though).
I'd rather have an interesting character that doesn't change at all, (but provides great insight in his interactions and inner live as well make him/her relatable) than a shallow one that goes onto the heroes journey.

So better a well crafted glimpse of a moment, than a half hearted journey.

On the issue of NTE's character development (and supposed lack thereof): We have to acknowledge that those movies are about Shinji only, all the other characters are relegated to the side lines. Also, Q acts more as an introduction to a new world, than a continuation of the other movies. The more and more I think about it, Jo and Ha's only purpose seemingly just have been to lay the ground for the disruptive twist that 3.0 presents.

To supplement FreakyFilmFanForever: I also think Asuka gets some development. From pure resentment and hate she goes to caring. I think the moment, where she leaves the plug only to return and pull Shinji out of it at the end of the movie shows more character development than many other animated works.
We still get to know Mari, but she seems like a pretty flippant and intrepidly bold girl anyways, so I don't think she even needs development.
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Postby BrikHaus » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:19 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:I never understood all the rave for "character development" which especially occurred in Anime fandom (nowadays less so, though). I'd rather have an interesting character that doesn't change at all, (but provides great insight in his interactions and inner live as well make him/her relatable) than a shallow one that goes onto the heroes journey.

Western-thinking minds expect character development because it is so heavily ingrained in our literature and other forms of entertainment. Honestly, character development is important. Would you really expect someone to go through all the shit that happens in EVA and not change at all? They don't have to have a drastic personality shift, but they should certainly learn something or think about the world differently. If the character is such an utter rock that they do not develop at all, then what's the point of telling the story in the first place? Just to show off some cool monsters and shit? The Japanese may think differently on this topic than many Westerners do, and that's certainly fine. For me, though, I like character development. Could you imagine how less interesting Breaking Bad would have been if Walter White never became Heisenberg?
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Postby IronEvangelion » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:41 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:I never understood all the rave for "character development" which especially occurred in Anime fandom (nowadays less so, though).
I'd rather have an interesting character that doesn't change at all, (but provides great insight in his interactions and inner live as well make him/her relatable) than a shallow one that goes onto the heroes journey.

To be honest I'm kinda tired of the "hero's journey" concept myself. Character development is fine, but we need to come up with more interesting ways of doing it. Using the exact same story structure in nearly every story for over 2,000 years is pretty lazy of our species, we need to branch out. Besides, I think art should be about expressing creativity in new and exciting ways instead of following predetermined paint-by-numbers templates, because the latter is closer to science or engineering than it is to art.
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Postby gatotsu911 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:29 pm

Character regression is a form of character development (or it can be)
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:50 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:And Rei!Q is a completely different character than Rei II in Eva Ha. Heck, she's even a completely different person. In fact, she even gets visited by what appears to be Rei II's ghost or something in the film. However, Rei!Q still get some development within the film itself, as she starts asking questions as to what she is and who her "real self" is.


Rei Q really diverges from II in that she has no idea what she is and is very disturbed by what she learns. The pinnacle of her development (to me) comes when she decides to disregard her orders and ejects to save her own life. It's a significant change from her previous characterization, and from Rei II's "if I die, I can be replaced" attitude.

Shinji develops, Rei develops, Asuka goes from wanting to punch Shinji's face in to saving his bacon, and Kaworu...possibly shows some kind of growth when he admits he screwed things up. A lot of the other characters don't change much within the window of the movie itself, but we spend so little time with them that I don't think that they needed to.
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Postby gatotsu911 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:35 pm

Did anyone here ever bother to do an in-depth comparison on how the Official Khara Subs stack up against various fansubs or overseas releases? Or for that matter Funimation's own theatrical subs? (Which are curiously included on the disc, though the theatrical dub is not)
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Postby Shark Knight » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:42 pm

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:Did anyone here ever bother to do an in-depth comparison on how the Official Khara Subs stack up against various fansubs or overseas releases? Or for that matter Funimation's own theatrical subs? (Which are curiously included on the disc, though the theatrical dub is not)


What do you? How would you get Official Khara subs? If you get 3.33 blu ray from Japan does it come with eng subtitles?

I really didnt mind that there wasnt a lot of chara development and like I said before I enjoyed it. Altought I kind of understand why the hate towards it, people " and me" where expecting the 3rth movie to be like the preview at the end of 2.22

Btw what is all this Q and HA thing? Pardon my ignorance.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:02 pm

Khara oversaw the "Home Video" subtitle track for the English release, so those are their approved English subs. The Japanese release doesn't come with English subs, but the Hong Kong release does.

"Q" and "Ha" are just alternate titles for 3.0 and 2.0. All three movies have multiple titles. The first is "Jo," "Prelude," and "1.0: You Are (Not) Alone." Second is "Ha," "Break," and "2.0: You Can (Not) Advance." And the third is "Q," "Quickening," and "3.0: You Can (Not) Redo."
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Postby Shark Knight » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:51 pm

Thank you bluebasilisk! Now I understand what people mean when they go all Q and Ha. :jiggy:

Alright, I guess I will get the funimation blu rays then. I was skeptical because I didnt know which editions to get.
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:36 am

Also, Evangelion 4 has the titles "Evangelion Final," "Evangelion 3.0+1.0 : ||," and "Evangelion Shin." ("Evangelion 4.0" was never a title that as announced for it, so none of us really use it.) Many of us here are referring to is as "Eva Shin," since it's the easiest and quickest to type. ("Shin" can translate into "New," or "True.")
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Postby Shark Knight » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:54 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Also, Evangelion 4 has the titles "Evangelion Final," "Evangelion 3.0+1.0 : ||," and "Evangelion Shin." ("Evangelion 4.0" was never a title that as announced for it, so none of us really use it.) Many of us here are referring to is as "Eva Shin," since it's the easiest and quickest to type. ("Shin" can translate into "New," or "True.")

3 + 1 could be a reference to 3 2 1 right? Or even 3+1=4 in a certian pun LOL.
I will call it Eva final then.

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