One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby NemZ » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Say what? It seems that drastic because of the nature of the scene, and because we know what it enables the Angels to do. Given that it cannot be written off as easily as you describe.


In the series we see unit 01 do nothing particularly special at all after getting the S2 that it wasn't already able to, and it was regularly dominating the strongest of angels without it AND without battery power anyway, so it doesn't even need the stupid thing. The point is to emphasize how little control NERV actually has. It CAN'T be a part of the overall plan because there's no way Gendo could possibly have arranged for it to happen... Seele is freaking out precisely because this wasn't in their script. Gendo is amused by all this because they aren't even worried about the real threat, Rei.
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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:37 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:That wasn't my point. It serves a narrative goal for Anno, not within the story. Gendo is happy to see his favorite eva get a powerup and more evidence of Yui having influence on events to help him... though it makes me really wonder about her personality with these wild berserker moments.

Fuyutsuki's line during the scene suggests that the situation as a whole had more to with the situation no longer following Seele's plans. And since he's such good friends with Gendo, it's implied that his comment on Seele's plans going awry was closer to what Gendo was thinking of at the time.

Gendo simply being happy about Yui getting power ups is not supported by the text whatsoever, leading the idea closer to fan-wanking than theory-building.
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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:10 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:In the series we see unit 01 do nothing particularly special at all after getting the S2 that it wasn't already able to, and it was regularly dominating the strongest of angels without it AND without battery power anyway, so it doesn't even need the stupid thing. The point is to emphasize how little control NERV actually has. It CAN'T be a part of the overall plan because there's no way Gendo could possibly have arranged for it to happen... Seele is freaking out precisely because this wasn't in their script. Gendo is amused by all this because they aren't even worried about the real threat, Rei.


And that makes all of episode 19 utterly and completely pointless. You're just building my argument for me at this point, and that's in addition to Freaky's notes above.
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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:02 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And that makes all of episode 19 utterly and completely pointless.


Of course. Nobody needed to see Shinji come to any sort of decision on his own in the aftermath of Toji's injury. Asuka getting taken down a peg had no further ramifications. Seeing the dummy plug wasn't as sure-fire a solution as Gendo hoped wasn't worth any screen time. Setting the stage for the revelation of the actual fate of Yui is just meaningless fluff. Seeing the most badass fight scene in the entire series and watching the eva turn into a goddamn monster was just filler.

I mean it's obvious right? If it doesn't conform to what Bags wants the series to be about then it might as well not happen.
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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:15 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I mean it's obvious right? If it doesn't conform to what Bags wants the series to be about then it might as well not happen.


Oh good grief, are you kidding me? You're handwaving like mad here, blowing off significant events in the show and acting like this was somehow Anno's original intent, and I'm the one being unreasonable? Give me a break. In ep 19 Unit 01 consumed Zeruel's S2 organ. This was presented as a very big deal at the time, but your preferred ending does nothing whatsoever with it. That's a problem you've yet to adequately address, and that means your reading of EoTV just doesn't work. So stop deflecting and either come up with a way of dealing with that problem or just move on already.
Last edited by Bagheera on Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:35 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:does nothing whatsoever with it.


It leads straight into the revelations in episode 21

Fuyutsuki: Not the Committee, but SEELE has finally appeared.

Seele 07: We have no intention of creating a new god. We hope for your cooperation, Prof. Fuyutsuki.


03 The living God created by us. It is blasphemy.

Kihl: The creation of a God is not allowed.

Some Seele: I will not allow him to have a God. Ikari Gendou, can we trust you?


Fuyutsuki: You're going to do That?

Ikari: Right. The way to become a god, which no one has achieved. The Human Instrumentality Project.


that in turn feed naturally into the transhumanist reading of the ending.
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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:42 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:It leads straight into the revelations in episode 21

that in turn feed naturally into the transhumanist reading of the ending.


That tells us why Seele didn't want it to happen. What it doesn't tell us is why Ikari did want it to happen, or how it plays into your preferred ending. Why did Ikari need/want Unit 01 to have the power of the Angels, and why didn't Unit 01 do anything of note after it got said power? The transhumanist ending doesn't address that at all.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:00 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:This was presented as a very big deal at the time


Well yeah, it's freaky and weird and possibly dangerous. What did it actually DO though? Apparently nothing. There is no evidence in the original version of the series that the S2 Yui ate actually did anything whatsoever. In 23 it is still deployed with an umbilical.

@Tines: I'm not sure about that connection. 'god' is a pretty ambiguous term afterall, and it's not clear if the plan Gendo is showing off there is something he's going to follow or something he's proposing to Seele but planning to undermine for his own purposes. It's incredibly vague.

Even the "It's begun." bit at the end and repeated at the start of 20 is vague as hell. Is this in reference to something to do with Yui getting the S2, or is it instead the observation (the same one Kaji makes) that after this Seele will surely begin working to remove them, as they've expected to have to deal with eventually? The dub makes Gendo sound downright eagre, but the original sounds resigned.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:02 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Well yeah, it's freaky and weird and possibly dangerous. What did it actually DO though? Apparently nothing.

If that's the case, then that scene becomes a massive waste of time for the viewer. As i said earlier, You can't just make a big deal out of something only to forget about it afterwards.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:48 am

Cool imagery that is important as a motivating factor if not important in and of itself is not at all a waste.

Sometimes the point is not the checkov's gun, but rather the newspaper headline showing when it's set down dramatically on the desk.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:13 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Cool imagery that is important as a motivating factor if not important in and of itself is not at all a waste.

Sometimes the point is not the checkov's gun, but rather the newspaper headline showing when it's set down dramatically on the desk.


But it wasn't. It fizzled, which is an altogether different matter. If we were originally supposed to get something like EoE before Tatsunoko screwed the pooch the buildup around Yui getting an S2 makes sense. But if we were supposed to get a transhumanist ending where Yui isn't relevant it doesn't make any sense at all. There's no reason to introduce it if it won't be relevant later on, and no reason to hype it up if it wasn't supposed to be a big deal. In EoE, big deal. In EoTV, nada. That's not putting the gun down, that's forgetting it exists, which is, as noted, crappy storytelling.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:35 am

You're making big assumptions to justify your preferences. No matter what was supposed to happen, and we'll never know for sure anyway, it doesn't change the facts of what is there on the screen... a whole lot of nothing. Even in EoE it isn't a big deal, as all she does is have a dramatic entrance and everything after that is all Rei.

If you want to call it crappy writting then that's what it is. Anno is not infallible or above criticism.
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"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:56 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Cool imagery that is important as a motivating factor if not important in and of itself is not at all a waste.

Sometimes the point is not the checkov's gun, but rather the newspaper headline showing when it's set down dramatically on the desk.

This is only true when assuming that Unit 01 had nothing to do with EoTV's Instrumentality. But that's a huge assumption to make, considering that Shinji was still struggling with the concept of piloting Unit 01 during Instrumentality. If Unit 01 had nothing to do with EoTV's Instrumentality, then Shinji wouldn't need to struggle with piloting it. But since Shinji struggles with the concept of piloting Unit 01, the best assumption to make is that Unit 01 is still a huge factor in EoTV's depiction go Human Instrumentality.

In other words, we're not only ignoring EoE in order to make this assumption, but we're also ignoring very prominent elements within EoTV itself in order to arrive at the conclusion that Unit 01 was not being built up to be used during Human Instrumentality. Unit 01 was there in EoTV's depiction of Human Instrumentality. Shinji points at it and is fearful of it. This is a known element of EoTV. I cannot ignore parts of EoTV like this when it comes to interpreting EoTV as a whole, especially when EoTV both begins and ends with Shinji's identity as an Eva pilot.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:16 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: considering that Shinji was still struggling with the concept of piloting Unit 01 during Instrumentality.
Being an Eva pilot was the one thing that had made him believe he was useful to other people and thus worth even existing.

That's at the centre of his concerns -- not being stuck in the pivotal role in the Divide by Zero ceremony -- and that's why the sudden revelation about it being possible to live a normal sort of life without having to have that massive source of validation to lean on.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:52 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Even in EoE it isn't a big deal, as all she does is have a dramatic entrance and everything after that is all Rei.


Ah, no? You might want to rewatch the ending of EoE there chief, as Yui's the one who releases all of the world's souls from the Black Moon after Rei/Lilith dies. She also petrifies the MPEs, lifts all those weird crosses of light, and restores the world to something resembling habitability. She finished what Rei/Lilith started, basically.

If you want to call it crappy writting then that's what it is. Anno is not infallible or above criticism.


It's only crappy writing if your interpretation if the ending is the intended one. If that's not the case the problem goes away, as the S2 is used as we see in EoE.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:53 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:that's a huge assumption to make, considering that Shinji was still struggling with the concept of piloting Unit 01 during Instrumentality.


Thinking about the ramifications of doing something does not require you be doing that thing at the time. And even if he was piloting (which we have zero evidence of) that's a very far leap to saying he's indirectly controlling instrumentality as a whole. Doubly so when it is Gendo and Rei that seem to be in positions of authority over him.

Bagheera wrote:You might want to rewatch the ending of EoE there chief


All that happens after Rei has passed the mantle. Before that all she did was blow shit up and fly a bit... all for no apparent gain, really. It was literally just things happening on screen to look cool.
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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:10 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Thinking about the ramifications of doing something does not require you be doing that thing at the time.

If Unit 01 is not involved in Human Instrumentality in EoTV, then Shinji doesn't have to consider the ramifications of piloting it ever. It'll never be a thing that he has to do. So if that's the case, then why does he still ask these questions? Of what importance are they to him in his present condition of never seeing Unit 01 ever again?
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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:20 pm

The point of all of that is coming to terms with himself for the choices he's made. The whole point of the early stages of instrumentality as filling in the holes of the soul with the perspectives of others is to alleviate exactly this sort of suffering. Thus to arrive at a more concrete and stable definition of self, a requirement for making a consensual reality that isn't just a maze of personal hell bubbles like Shinji is stuck in for most of 26.

It's the last layer of the ATF... the part designed not to keep others out, but to keep yourself trapped within. If they don't pop that last bubble the inward pressure of his own self-hatred will snuff him out for good.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
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"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:35 pm

It still seems to segregate too much of the information and character arc of Unit 01 from the previous episodes in order for this not to be something that Shinji also has to deal with in the present tense, and not just as past regrets that he's trying to get over.

It least, from my perspective it does. And remember, I wasn't too fond of congruency theory even a week ago. (I'm still not, really. But, with that mistranslation pointed out and clearing a few things up, it seems like the "real world in both endings" actually holds more weight than I once thought.)
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Re: One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

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Postby cody727kirby » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:48 pm

The quotes in question:

Episode 25:
Shinji: Evangelion Unit 01 ...
So, do I ultimately have no choice but to pilot it?
Even after killing someone I loved?
Are you saying I'm supposed to listen to my father and everyone else,
and get back in this thing to fight?!
Mother!
Say something! Answer me!

Very much present tense, and this was before Instrumentality began in EoTV.

(Edits to fix formatting)
Last edited by cody727kirby on Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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