Do people still hate Evangelion 3.33?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:06 pm

I don't think people hate it now as much as they did when it came out, to answer your question. Some of those that did now really appreciate it, while all the people who were butthurt about it have mostly faded away.

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Postby Chroma » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:09 pm

gatotsu911 wrote:3.0 is flawed, but still the only one of the three films so far that really seems to justify its existence separate from the original series.

Absolutely agreed - and I agree with everything you put in the OP as well.

From my first viewing of the movie, it felt so much more in the vein of what I expected from NGE - that is, it wasn't what I expected at all. Visually it's spectacular, and plot-wise it's much more compelling than 1.11 and 2.22, which (while very pretty, and in 2.22's case a good way of mixing the familiar and the new) did little to "justify their existences" separate from what we had from the original show.

I certainly don't feel like it was 'incoherent', as some here and on /a/ and /m/ have said, and I bare the 'unusual' opinion that the timeskip was a good idea (although it could've been done better, I admit). I gushed over the visual choices, imagery, surrealism, and overall extreme weirdness of the entire thing. It's a beautiful film.

Really, what it comes down to is that 3.33 was the first time since finishing the original series and EoE that I really felt like something fresh and unique was being done with anything NGE related. NGE had been sluggish and bloated before it, bogged down by its own history and influential existence. It felt like anything NGE related was going on simply because people were going to pay for it regardless. But 3.33 was different; it cut away all of that and went in a new direction. Of course it was going to be hated, of course it was going to draw some ire. But I think it was worth it.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:53 pm

I can't bring myself to call Eva Q flawed. It's a confusing and uneven film, but intentionally so and beautifully done. This isn't so much a "Whoops, I messed up my narrative," inasmuch as it's more of a "Man, this'll mess them up something fierce!"

I guess if Eva Q is flawed, it's flawed in the same way Ritsuko's skin is flawed underneath her left eye. You can call it a mole if you want, but all I see is a mark of beauty delicately placed there by the creators.
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Postby gatotsu911 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:17 am

At some point in the future (when I'm not supposed to be working) I will bother trying to produce an actual writeup/potential megapost on what specifically I feel to be 3.0's visual strengths. The short version is: breathtaking vistas of desolation, a lot of surrealist play with space and dimensionality that would be difficult if not impossible to achieve outside of animation, and exaggerated images or shifts in style that underline themes, plot points and symbols. I have a few particular scenes in mind that stood out to me upon second viewing, but it wouldn't hurt to comb over it again if I had the excuse.

I'm less interested in analyzing the script because, frankly, it's weaker than the visuals in this outing. Not terrible, but the imagery does a lot more of the heavy lifting as far as communicating themes (and does so with more efficacy) compared to the words. Visual storytelling has always been Eva's foremost aesthetic virtue (not that Anno's a bad writer), but it's particularly apparent here with fresh talent at the helm.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:26 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I can't bring myself to call Eva Q flawed. It's a confusing and uneven film, but intentionally so and beautifully done. This isn't so much a "Whoops, I messed up my narrative," inasmuch as it's more of a "Man, this'll mess them up something fierce!"


Yup. More and more these days I read "Eva is flawed!" as "I wasn't paying attention and didn't understand what was being said."

Well, everything's flawed to some degree or another, so I'm hardly claiming it's perfect. But still.
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Postby zlink64 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:58 am

Well when I say part 3 was kinda dumb I don't mean it doesn't make sense. I actually though the movie was pretty straight forward as far as Shinji's character was concerned. It's just the actual things that happen felt very unrealistic to me and not that compelling.

Like the time skip itself doesn't really do anything for me emotionally and is deus ex machina like. Then the way Shinji is treated after the time skip is just presented in a way that made me not really care. Then the way Asuka is hung up about Shinji after 15 years didn't seem normal to me since they never were an actual couple and 15 years is a long time to get over a teenage fling.Then Shinji ignoring Kawaro and getting his head blown up was like "wow, that was really stupid". Like there are certain things that are just hard for me to buy in that movie; like a lot of it just doesn't feel natural to me. That's what I mean when I say the movie is flawed/dumb. Ultimately this is just personal because I don't blame someone if they have no problem with the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I think what gatotsu911 was saying about the script just being weak is kind of what I'm talking about. The moments of conflict in rebuild 3 were just plain not as good as the ones that were in the original IMO.

The fun of that movie for me came from not knowing. And the plot was different from the original but the character development for Shinji during part 3 to me seem to be basically that the same that it was during the show but the show just seem more natural/real/relatable to me in the way it progressed through that.

Overall I enjoyed the movie but I didn't finish watching it with the feeling of "wow that was amazing". When I finished it felt more like rebuild 3 was a okay movie that was cinema sins video waiting to happen.
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Postby Jurrasic » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:58 am

I have an almost equal mix of love and hate for 3.33. At the end of 2.22 when everything seemed to go off the rails, I was STOKED, I was excited, I couldn't wait for how this was going to play out over the next two movies.....the start of 3 in space was slightly confusing, but intensely awesome and my hopes were still strong but then the time shift, combined with the weak initial translation led to a whole lot of completely nonsensical elements and characters behaving diametrically differently towards Shinji with absolutely no empathy for the fact that for him, this was the next morning after the battle with Zeruel.

The movie continued to lay a confusing combination of (intentional) fish-out-of-water non-explanations for the amazing scenery and environments it kept laying out, and I really REALLY wanted to love the movie for what it was rather then just HOW it was presented.

The subsequent translations have improved things a lot, but there are still far too many questions unanswered, and they have been left unanswered way too long.

That is the biggest reason I am still browned off about 3.33. All we have are guesses after 4 goddamn years now! This entire project is almost 10 years along now! For 3 full length movies where the first 2 barely needed to be plotted out, this is shameful.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:02 am

View Original PostJurrasic wrote:but there are still far too many questions unanswered, and they have been left unanswered way too long.

Well the biggest argument against this is that's the whole point. But it's definitely okay to tell things to the viewer and not have to tell Shinji, and the movie knows this (Wille coming to intervene when Unit 13 activated). We already know it's Shinji's story, we're already following Shinji, we're right behind Shinji every step of the way. That doesn't mean we have to BE Shinji in order to get the flow of the movie.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:13 am

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:I'm less interested in analyzing the script because, frankly, it's weaker than the visuals in this outing. Not terrible, but the imagery does a lot more of the heavy lifting as far as communicating themes (and does so with more efficacy) compared to the words. Visual storytelling has always been Eva's foremost aesthetic virtue (not that Anno's a bad writer), but it's particularly apparent here with fresh talent at the helm.

The visuals are also a part of the script. (Scripts contain a lot of "Close-Up on..." "Pulls-Back on..." "P.O.V. Shot of..." "Asuka looks like she hasn't aged a day..." ect.) I think visuals vs dialogue would be what you're aiming for here. I tend to not concern myself over the dialogue in a Japanese film unless I feel it's too expositional (which certainly isn't the case with Eva Q) or unless I feel a certain sentiment that was expressed was completely out of place and ruined the tone. Anything else I might have to say about the dialogue might just be something that somehow got mixed up in translation. Does the dialogue read or sound too clunky in English? Maybe the original Japanese dialogue sounded more natural to Japanese viewers. Or maybe it sounded bad to the Japanese viewers too. Either way I wouldn't know, so I'm not going to nit-pick at it and claim this is a fault of Anno & Co. If anything I'll just ignore it and focus on the point of the lines spoken, since that's the only aspect of it I can fairly judge.

Because I didn't feel that anything that was expressed by the characters felt out of place, and I feel that the dialogue wasn't overtly expositional, I guess I personally don't have any issues with the film's dialogue. I'm not going to give it a "10 out of 10 Best Dialogue Ever" rating, because that's also beyond my understanding of the language, but I will settle on "Eh, it was alright I guess. It did what it was supposed to do," since that's as far as my understanding of the material goes at this point. If I do have complains about the specifics of translated dialogue, I usually point fingers at the translators themselves, since most of what I would find are stupid grammatical errors in the subs, entire words that seem to be missing from the subs, or things like that.

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Well when I say part 3 was kinda dumb I don't mean it doesn't make sense. I actually though the movie was pretty straight forward as far as Shinji's character was concerned.

[...]

Then Shinji ignoring Kawaro and getting his head blown up was like "wow, that was really stupid".

That seems to be a contradiction. How are these two ideas reconciled?

Like the time skip itself doesn't really do anything for me emotionally and is deus ex machina like.

There's got to be a better name for this trope. I get what you're saying, but "deus ex machina" is the exact opposite of this thing. More like an "Anti Deus Ex Machina" or something. Also, the 14-year gap didn't feel that way to me. It was more surprising and shocking. I guess I'm just more used to bad things coming out of nowhere than I am good things coming out of nowhere. And a proper "Deus ex Machina" only works well for me when the film has me begging for anything to just make everything better. (Like in Toy Story 3 or something like that.) Since the effectiveness of the proper form has more to do with desperately wanting the characters to get out of a bad situation, I've no idea what would make the antithesis of that trope acceptable to more people than just the simple "Shit happens."

As for Asuka's relationship with Shinji in this film, I feel it has more to do with her feelings with the Curse of Eva. Like, none of this stuff with Shinji would have mattered to her at this point in her life if she was only able to mature like a normal human being. Her not being able to mature normally is most likely what's keeping this from happening. But I guess it's still debated as to what exactly the effects of that are and how they may or may not have effected the development of the mind. The visual of Asuka looking just as young as she was in the last movie was enough for my subconscious to simply pick up where she had left off in the last film, so I guess that's why it worked better for me.

Plus, on top of that, we're not sure about the details between Ha and Q, including exactly how or why Asuka feels this way about Shinji. So it could be Asuka's upset with Shinji about making the world look all terrible before she was able to wake up from Unit 03 herself, which is a grudge I would probably also carry over into the next couple of decades. I mean, I'm still upset with past US Presidents over certain treaties they've signed over 20 years ago, so I see no reason why Asuka wouldn't also carry a grudge with Shinji over something far more terrible he did to the entire planet 14 years ago.

But that's just why I found the movie compelling. If it didn't work for you, then whatever, I guess.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:51 am

As a reminder, Asuka isn't hung up on some teenaged fling. She's hung up on the fact that she got Bardieled after doing something nice for Shinji and Rei, after which they promptly forgot about her. Shinji then went on to wreck the world on Rei's behalf. Some people might be a tad bitter about that, especially after having to live in said wrecked world for 14 years as a 14-year-old who will never, ever be able to grow up.
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby gatotsu911 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:38 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The visuals are also a part of the script. (Scripts contain a lot of "Close-Up on..." "Pulls-Back on..." "P.O.V. Shot of..." "Asuka looks like she hasn't aged a day..." ect.)

True, and I should know since I'm currently working on a (very amateur) screenwriting project.

I guess when I say "script" I'm referring to more than just the dialogue, but the textual aspects of the film as a whole: the characters, plot, everything that exists within the film's "world" beyond what's literally presented on the screen - and not the way it's realized by the director. It's possible after all for a middling screenplay to be well-directed, and I think the directing definitely does outshine the screenplays in Rebuild.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:16 pm

As a writer I find the script for 3.0 to actually be almost flawless because it clearly accomplishes what the author intended to achieve. It's understandable that viewers have issues with it - what happened in those missing years, what the hell is Gendo wearing, dude what is going on with that landscape - the story of 3.0 is super confrontational, voraciously streamlined, aloof when it comes to world building details and literally sidelines most of the cast, but it's seems to capture the emotional response from the viewer that the author wanted to evoke. At least it did for me.

I find all three films so far accomplish what they set out to do on a purely literary level - 1.0 is the classic hero narrative, 2.0 is a fun action adventure promising changes to come, 3.0 is a drama/horror piece about what someone losing everything they once spurned. But, I'm an odd duck because I find a lot of enjoyment is based on whether the filmmakers achieved their original goals. If someone wants to make a lowbrow unoriginal comedy I'll enjoy it if the film hits that level.

Really my only beef with the writing in Rebuild is I find all three movies could benefit if they slowed down the pace a little. 3.0 is probably the least offending feature when it comes to pacing so far because the narrative is so sharply focused on Shinji but 1.0 just has some less then stellar editing edits. There's a couple moments in that first film that I think would fare much better if they snuck in a few extra pauses and seconds between scene transitions.

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Postby Jurrasic » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:01 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Well the biggest argument against this is that's the whole point. But it's definitely okay to tell things to the viewer and not have to tell Shinji, and the movie knows this (Wille coming to intervene when Unit 13 activated). We already know it's Shinji's story, we're already following Shinji, we're right behind Shinji every step of the way. That doesn't mean we have to BE Shinji in order to get the flow of the movie.


Indeed it is the point, Shinji's dislocation is key to how Gendo manipulates him to do exactly what he wants. But while we are ment to (and DO) feel Shinji's confusion and despair, we ain't Shinji Ikari. Ultimately we are the the ones the story is being told to. And after this long of time, I am frankly getting tired of re-chewing the same well-worn fat. This story needs to progress, or it risks losing it's audience.

This isn't a fault with 3.33 of course, it's a fault with how fucking long it's taking to finish the damn rebuild story AFTER 3.33.
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby zlink64 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:32 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:
That seems to be a contradiction. How are these two ideas reconciled?



It's only contradictory if you assume that there being an explanation for Shinji's actions automatically means that Shinji's actions can't be stupid. I acknowledge that Shinji had his reasons and that Anno knows what he is doing but I still think what Shinji did in that moment was stupid and frankly not very realistic IMO.
I don't think most people would've done what Shinji did in that moment since it was too stupid. In other words "I don't buy it". But that's just me. If you think what he did was totally understandable and relatable power to you. Personally I think a person would have to have some kind of mental disability for them to do specifically what Shinji did and for things to go down exactly the way they did when those two staff where pulled out. I mean what rational person would just ignore the guy who came up with the plan when he is saying to stop because the plan is fucked. I don't think a despreate/emo intelligent teenager would just automatically turn their brain off in that way in real life. That scene was just kinda dumb to me. Not saying it didn't make sense just that it was not real to me.

Yes Anti deus Ex machina is exactly what I meant. Maybe we should coin that lol.
I don't necessarily think it's a flaw, but, that kind of story telling is not what I personally have enjoyed about Evangelion. Part of what I've specifically like about Evangelion is how everything in the story flowed naturally together. To me the way Anno tied everything together in the original was a big part of why I liked the show.
This Anti deus Ex machina was just an excuse to isolate Shinji so he could end up with Kaworu and having the catalyst of that isolation be a random event is very boring to me and I rather have the catalyst of that Isolation be a combination of dilemmas and characters flaws that naturally progress the plot. That's how it was in the original. That's all I mean when I say I think the time skip is stupid and when I say the script is weak relative to the original. That being said I don't think the movie is horrible I just don't love it and frankly only watch it because it's called Evangelion and I'm hyped for this new ending since I'm curious.

I don't want to really discuss Asuka because we may or may not be missing pieces of information but I'll explain myself:

Movie starts with Asuka randomly calling out for Shinji so she has him on her mind.

She has the most passionate response to his return compared to all the other characters.

After she talks to Shinji Mari teases Asuka about Shinji implying that Mari knows that Asuka feel a certain way about Shinji and that Asuka's visit was more than just a "FU for ruining the world". I suppose it could be because of the curse too but then why isn't Mari upset and why even have the teasing scene.

The end was super reminecant of the EOE scene with Misato making out with Shinji and there is a lot of parallels between Misatoxshinji and Auskaxshinj. Things like age and inappropriate romantic undertones and both of them using brat to describe Shinji and etc.

Given all that plus their history in the rebuild series I don't think it's a huge leap to assume she has romantic/resentful/complicated feelings towards Shinji during part 3. This is what I mean by hung up.

All that being said...it's been 14 years, get over it lol. Shit is not realistic to me. Like who carries a torch for a jr high school crush for 14 years during an post Apocalypse world.

Also I agree with that pacing thing. A lot of my gripes with first two movies really just come down to pacing.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:37 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:That's how it was in the original.

But this isn't the original, so expecting the original out of something that's not the original will only set you up for dissapointment
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Postby zlink64 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:39 pm

Oh I'm not expecting it to be like the original. I was just explaining myself based off what I wrote before. Like I don't really care if it's not like the original. I want it to be as different as possible. But not different in the ways I criticize above. I think if you focus on that one line you'll accidentally be missing the point(s) of my post...or maybe I'm not being clear.
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Postby Ray » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:20 pm

One problem I have with 3.0 is that it pretty much committed Narrative suicide. Why derail the story the way you did? Why make Shinji guilty of an irredeemable crime? Why not answer some f**king questions instead of leaving us with nothing?

My biggest issue with 3.0 is the setup it's left us with 4.0/Final. There are simply too many plot threads and character arcs for one final 90-120 minute movie to wrap up. Assuming Anno even chooses to wrap them up, and not leave them hanging as one final middle finger to Shinji as a character, and the Fans for even bothering to care. I've stated before, there's a difference between leaving some plotlines to be solved in the sequel, and just being a cocktease.

We still don't know how instrumentality works, we still don't know all the details about Shinji's role in this, we still don't know the details of Gendo's plan, we still don't know about what the f**k happened during the fourteen year time skip, a timeskip that happened with no setup, all just for the sake of a hamfisted and completely unnecessary and convoluted twist. A twist that did NOTHING to answer any questions, flesh out the lore, or help solve the mysteries, answer questions, and tie up the loose plotlines.

The world is changed for the worse and the audience doesn't know why. Characters that were previously likable are now coldhearted and bitter and the audience doesn't know why. Shinji is guilty of an unforgivable crime and the audience doesn't know why. The plot just keeps going without ever stopping to actually give a straight answer to the audience, and after a while you just wonder why you should even bother caring if you're never going to get answers.

It's not even like Game Of Thrones where you understand WHY the Cruelty is happening and whats at stake. Why should I care what happens if I don't know what's going on at all?

Even the original Eva, by the 3/4ths point managed to answer most of the questions the series brought up. Or give us hints to connect the dots and come to our own conclusions. Rebuild hasn't really answered any questions or given us hints that point to anything but dead ends. Instead it just piles more unanswered questions upon unanswered questions to the point where it stops being fun trying to connect the dots to solve the mysteries and just becomes infuriating.

It's like giving a kid a math problem that's difficult but solvable to test his intelligence. Then giving the kid a problem that isn't solvable just to mess with him, It's cruel!

Goatjesus wrote:For 4.0 to be a success, it needs to answer all of the questions, and progress the plot, and end it. The only way I can see it doing this though is to backpedal like crazy with so much exposition it’d be insane and then leave us hanging with an ending that would otherwise be rushed.
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Arcadia's legacy
Lilin
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:31 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:We still don't know how instrumentality works, we still don't know all the details about Shinji's role in this, we still don't know the details of Gendo's plan

We knew non of those things before EoTV and EoE, so it's not suprising that like NGE, these plot threads are being saved for Final
Never let the flame that is hope burn out, for despite the length of the night, the sunrise will always come
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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:42 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:One problem I have with 3.0 is that it pretty much committed Narrative suicide. Why derail the story the way you did? Why make Shinji guilty of an irredeemable crime? Why not answer some f**king questions instead of leaving us with nothing?


Because there's a movie left to resolve everything and you're operating under unreasonable expectations.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Do people still hate that last movie

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Postby Shark Knight » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:34 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:As a writer I find the script for 3.0 to actually be almost flawless

It is great but it suffers from two super important things that it shouldnt lack.

No actual character development and stupid decisions "maybe this could be forgiving on Shinji since he was desperate at that moment but wathevs"

Still I enjoyed this film, I liked it. Sure wasnt as good as the actual preview for it and it had waay too much cgi for my liking but it was nice.
Let None Find Us Wanting


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