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Re: Star Wars

Postby Glor » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:06 pm

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:
SPOILER: Show
Rey literally just learned that she is force sensitive and yet she somehow already knows what a force pull/push is and what Jedi mind tricks are, my question is: How?
No really how? I'm not even questioning her ability to do these things just to know that they exist at all. Nobody has taught her these things, and last I checked they were not common knowledge.
And lets not even get into the fact that she can somehow defeat a (admittedly only ever so slight more trained) sith with what to me felt like not even all of her strength.

There are other problems I have but that just highlights a few of the more obvious ones.
Just saying there are much better ways to write strong female characters than this.


@rosenakahara
SPOILER: Show
The funny thing about her force powers is that Kylo Ren pretty much teachers her how to do it, the Force being a very intuitive tool. Once you tap it, it's just a matter of figuring out how to exert your will to command an effect. When Kylo is force-probing her mind, he's encounting some resistance, likely an unwitting manifestation of force potential in Rey as she tries to resist. In this way, she realizes, with extreme effort, she can block him out. In this way, by probing her mind, he's shown her you can use the force to push into someone's thoughts, which is then what she successfully attempts on Daniel Trooper. TFA shows more than it tells, which hinders it in some ways, but I rather like it.


Don't have much else to say about Rey atm.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby IronEvangelion » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:25 pm

A new Visual Dictionary is being released for The Force Awakens. Finally we know why Kylo Ren's saber has crossguards.
SPOILER: Show
A big question about Kylo Ren's lightsaber was why the sword-like, cross-guard sabers were necessary. The visual dictionary discloses that Ren's lightsaber is based on ancient designs and utilizes a cracked kyber crystal, rendering it unstable. The cross-guard vents are there to distribute the excess energy


Source:
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-w ... n=homepage
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Tankred » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:56 pm

I've seen some excerpts myself, though I'm starting wonder if they seriously thought labeling everything was such a good idea, I guess it's important to label Kylo's ACCUSING FINGER.

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Chuckman » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:07 pm

Well there's a bunch of ancient lore crystal bullshit to explain it but the real reason Ren's lightsaber looks the way it does is because it makes it appear more clumsy and brutish, which suits the character.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Ray » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:19 pm

Short answer? It's good, go see it.

Long answer?
SPOILER: Show
It's hard to put into words how I really feel about this movie. I've never really been a big enough Star Wars fan to get as emotionally invested in the franchise as everyone else. I didn't feel any real agony when I saw the prequels, cause I grew up with them. Again, I'm one of the few people who didn't think the prequels were godawful.

But this is a whole lot of fun.

But I will say this, the EFFECTS in this movie blow both the Prequels and the original series out of the water. Oh my GAWD! I actually believed the special effects were there! Everything had a real weight and texture to it.

The fight scenes were epic but simoultaneously grounded, not as flashy or choreographed as the prequels, but not as slow and paced like the kendo inspired sword fights of the original trilogy. There was this one scene towards the end of the movie that was a cross between Luke facing Vader in Empire, and Anakin vs Obi-Wan in Revenge of the sith. It's just the right balance.

The cinematography in this is really REALLY good. Free from the restraints of subpar cinematography or the technical limitations of the past. We get to see long camera zooms, excellent panning shots, Homages to movies like Apocalypse Now and Saving Private Ryan.

A few things I was really worried about when I saw the publicity for this movie was that it would be too pandering to the Original Trilogy fans at the expense of trying anything new. I was afraid some of the new characters would hog the spotlight at the expense of the old cast, and/or vice versa. Were my fears justified? Well . . . Kind've. But not really. Because a lot can be forgiven if the characters are likeable enough and I like the new characters. Finn is a likable if somewhat vanilla everyman , Rey gets more character to her as the story goes on, theres a sense of mystery to her that is obviously meant to be filled in later movies but she's more or less just the future chosen one. But easily the best thing about the movie is Kylo Ren. He's basically, prequel Anakin done right, serious and no nonsense, but explodes into a violent man child at the drop of a hat. I'm really looking forward to seeing him in the next movie

He's more or less a pastiche of several character from the now defunct EU novels. He's a composite of Ben Skywalker, and Anakin Jacen Solo.
The new Jedi Genocide thing actually would fit into expanded universe lore if they had kept it Canon. Considering luke lost both his wife and his child to similar circumstances in the EU.

It was great seeing Harrison Ford and Carrie back on the big screen, it's nice seeing where these characters have gone in the span between episode 6 and 7. I saw the big twist coming from a year away. Harrison ford has wanted to put Han Solo down since Empire, and he finally got his wish.

I heard someone in the theatre say 'CALLED IT!".

I had a fanboy gasm at the end of the movie when I saw Hammil himself, all dressed in white. Looking better than he's been in years!

Having said that. . . Episode seven did pander a bit much to the fanboys, (considering the plots kind've a straight-up remake of A New Hope. But I kind've understand why. After the prequels a lot of people felt burned (not me personally, but who knows? I might have bad taste), this movie is more or less Disney just saying 'look, we understand, we've got you. You don't have to worry about another Jar Jar or baby Anakin or Midichlorians ever again.' This movie is more or less a placeholder to get fans back on board, and saving the real meat for the next two movies.

Having said that, it is a whole lot of fun, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do next.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Chainsaw Owl » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:45 pm

I just care about two things in a Star Wars movie: Lightsaber battles and dogfights. I could really care less about story or characters. People demonize the prequels as an affront to both, but honestly, the original series had shit for story and worse for characters. What both the OT and prequels did really well was the aforementioned lightsaber duelling and space battles. (Generally the OT was better at space battles and the prequels were better at lightsaber duels)

SPOILER: Show
This new movie did neither very well. When Rey and Finn took turns duelling Snape at the end, it was more like two cavemen clumsily slinging clubs at each other. And the dogfighting scenes were just so busy. Thirty fighters onscreen during a 3-second clip? Great for illustrating the magnitude of the battle, but not so great at getting me invested in it. As I recall, we only witnessed one pilot explode and die from his own camera angle. The dogfights carried no weight and the lightsaber duels were just meh.
Last edited by Chainsaw Owl on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby IronEvangelion » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:52 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:
SPOILER: Show
this movie is more or less Disney just saying 'look, we understand, we've got you. You don't have to worry about another Jar Jar or baby Anakin or Midichlorians ever again.'

This reminds me, why is it that Kid Anakin gets so much hate? Is it that hard for people to imagine that Anakin was an easygoing, happy-go-lucky kid at some point in his life? He's my favorite incarnation of pre-Vader Anakin and I don't understand why people liked the EP2 and EP3 versions better. :headscratch:

He's actually a good anaolgy for how I feel about the prequels: I love The Phantom Menace, but I would never recommend the other two. Clone Wars was particularly bad, and Revenge of the Sith was destroyed by Hayden's overacting
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Ray » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:04 pm

The problem is that Lucas didn't direct him properly. So he came off as wooden and childish. That and people wanted something better for Vader's origin.

and we've talked enough about how Jake Lloyd went insane.

In the original version of the script Anakin was supposed to be a bit older, around 13, and a lot more outright violent, nearly beating a fellow boy to death before Qui-Gon intervened.

Y'know, just go watch Red Letter Media's "Mr Plinkett Talks Episode 1". It's a movie length breakdown of the film that examines the movie from a Film School 101/screenwriting point of view (including the kid Anakin thing). While I don't agree with it on every angle or point, it's a decent examination about why people just hated the movie with such vitrol.

I think in about twenty years, when we're super saturated with Star Wars movies. There will be enough Good and Bad Star Wars movies to make the butthurt fanboys see the prequels as not as bad as they thought they were.
Last edited by Ray on Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Bagheera » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:09 pm

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Dream » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:18 pm

I don't feel like saying anything particular. it was an ok movie, the production values were good and in particularities it was pretty good (should be, with a budget like that), but i fear it revitalized my distaste for Hollywood. We simply want very different things out of film, and i feel they are very thoughtless as to the artistic/spiritual aspect. I just found it an over-produced, soulless movie.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Chainsaw Owl » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:41 pm

View Original PostDream wrote:I don't feel like saying anything particular. it was an ok movie, the production values were good and in particularities it was pretty good (should be, with a budget like that), but i fear it revitalized my distaste for Hollywood. We simply want very different things out of film, and i feel they are very thoughtless as to the artistic/spiritual aspect. I just found it an over-produced, soulless movie.


Exactly. A lot of stuff to look at. Nothing to think about, except for a couple of questions that already feel horribly shallow.

I walked into this movie wanting desperately to love it. Not even high-grade fanboyism could accomplish that.

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Bagheera » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:59 pm

Chainsaw Owl: Honestly, I think you're looking at the OT and the prequels through nostalgia-colored glasses. You say the OT was good at space battles but there was exactly one space battle in the trilogy that was worth a damn (it was a damn good battle, but SW and Empire had nothing to speak of). You say the lightsaber battles were great in the prequels, but apart from the second half of the Maul/Obi-Wan battle (which was magnificent since Ray Park actually had a decent weapon to work with) they were pretty limp (in AotC Dooku was a great fencer who was long in the tooth and facing a CGI apparition, and Palpatine had a similar problem when facing Yoda in RotS). Apart from that the Grievous shit was garbage and everything with Anakin was just useless. Honestly, I think the best battle was probably Obi-Wan vs. Jango Fett, though it's a tough call between that and Obi-Wan/Maul pt. 2.

In TFA:

SPOILER: Show
Rey's initial foray in the Falcon was easily better than anything we've seen in the previous six movies, up to and including the RotJ naval battle. When she cut thrust and flipped the Falcon to give Finn his shot it was a feat of both cinematic and tactical genius. Poe's and Finn's escape from the SD was likewise well-done, and while I thought Poe getting I don't know how many kills in a row was a bit overkill the cinematography on that shot was pretty pimp. As to lightsaber battles, Finn vs. melee trooper was solid, and while his fight against Ren was kinda "meh" Rey's very much was not -- indeed, it's probably the first time I can recall seeing elements of an actual fighting style in a lightsaber fight. Of course, none of them will ever match this or even this, but even so Rey's fight was pretty solid.
Last edited by Bagheera on Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby IronEvangelion » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:18 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:"Mr Plinkett Talks Episode 1"
I watched the first 2 parts. Disagree with a lot of what was said, but he did nail a few things, notably how cluttered the battles are in the prequels and how underdeveloped the characters are. That battle on Geonosis in the second film just has waaaay too much going on at once, but I did like the big droid army battle in The Phantom Menace.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Chainsaw Owl » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:24 pm

@Bagheera: I think you undersell SW's space battle. It does a very good job of making you feel invested in it, or at least it did to me. Garven Dreis, Biggs Darklighter, Wedge Antilles, Dutch, they all get less than three good lines of dialogue (except Dreis) but everything is so tight and significant that it paints pictures we don't even see. I remember thinking: "wait, why is that guy telling Gold LEADER to stay on target? Is he more experienced than his squad leader?" Partly it's powerful stuff because most of them died right there and then, imparting more character and mystique in their scant dialogue than most tertiary or even secondary characters can hope for in today's film industry. I can't even begin to care about Poe's team, and not for lack of trying. We didn't even get an "All wings report in."

SPOILER: Show
One of the base dudes at some point notes that half the fleet has been wiped out, but that has no weight for the audience. The only guy we lost was Nameless Alien "I'm hit" McGee.


And my apologies, "space battles" was a crappy term. I should have just said "mechanized combat in general". Because the assault on Hoth has a very strong place in my heart.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:53 am

I dislike the term "Mary Sue." Like, a lot.

Look, I understand that some people think that "X" female character is written poorly, and in the case of Rey in The Force Awakens, I would actually agree with you. But the term "Mary Sue" is literally meaningless when it's not used in reference to its original meaning. I look it up on TV Tropes, and it comes with 5 different questions challenging the label "Mary Sue," 14 different subcategories for the term, and 13 different applications for the term (that don't include the applications for its 14 different sub categories of the term). At this point the term "Mary Sue" means so many things that it ends up meaning nothing outside of the character simply being poorly written in some way. (In which case, it would be better to tell me that you think the character is poorly written!) As a storyteller myself, if people told me I had a "Mary Sue" character in my story I wouldn't even know what they're referring to. It's a meaningless label that confuses communication rather than clarifies communication.

As for Rey herself,
SPOILER: Show
I do feel that the ending to The Force Awakens is rushed. But does anyone know why? Is Rey the poorly written character because she mysteriously overcomes the villain? If that's the case, wouldn't simply knowing about her mysterious backstory answer that mystery behind her abilities? If it does, well, it's still poor writing, but it's no longer what was considered the "Mary Sue," now is it? On the other hand, it could be that it was Kylo Ren who was poorly written, and not Rey. After all, it seems rather anti-climatic that a villain who could stop blaster beams in mid-air get bested by some noob. So the fault in character development could lie with Kylo, and not with Rey. (See what I mean by the "Mary Sue" being a meaningless title at the end of the day?)


That's all I have to say about that.

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:03 am

View Original PostRay wrote:There will be enough Good and Bad Star Wars movies to make the butthurt fanboys see the prequels as not as bad as they thought they were.

Having even worse movies around to make the prequels look "not so bad' in contrast would do nothing to actually make them, y'know, better movies... Though, yes, doubtless the increasing dilution of the canon with more and more theatrical films will have a significant impact on the climate of the fandom. Not to mention, those who were around before the prequels and endless edits will be increasingly displaced by newer generations who have been condemned with childhood nostalgia for Jar Jar Binks* and Anakin "Emo" Skywalker.

* Say what you will about the Ewoks. At least they helped fell the Empire rather than contribute directly to its rise...

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Ieyasu » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:15 am

I saw this in a cinema bursting with little kids. Even the guy taking my ticket was an 8 year old. Although it was kinda funny, since at the start a whole bunch of somewhat inappropriate trailers were shown, including one for The Danish Girl and another in which Leo is mauled repeatedly by a bear... but those kids... damn, were they hungry for violence. A few of these little five year olds or something were giggling their asses off when Kylo Ren was murdering people. Another one stood up later when Chewie goes nuts with rage and was cheering him on.

Kids these days. We totally didn't do that in my day while watching Star Wars....

Anyway, what did I think of the movie. Well I didn't hate it, but I also didn't love it. I don't know what's wrong with me. Maybe I'm dead inside. Maybe its the Death Star done over again. I don't know. It's infinitely better than those hideous prequels, but still I just felt like I was watching "Movie". I look forward to the next ones, for some reason... but I don't even know if I'll buy this on DVD. Someone else in the house probably will but... I just have this urge to go watch Empire.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Tankred » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:49 am

Off I go to see it now too I guess.

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Re: Star Wars

Postby backseatjesus » Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:54 am

I'm not sure if people should take the Mr. Plinkett reviews seriously because I'm pretty sure a lot of the complaints are just making fun of nitpickers. I don't think they entirely represent Mike Stoklasa real feelings about the prequels.

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Tarnsman » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:28 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I dislike the term "Mary Sue." Like, a lot.

Look, I understand that some people think that "X" female character is written poorly, and in the case of Rey in The Force Awakens, I would actually agree with you. But the term "Mary Sue" is literally meaningless when it's not used in reference to its original meaning. I look it up on TV Tropes, and it comes with 5 different questions challenging the label "Mary Sue," 14 different subcategories for the term, and 13 different applications for the term (that don't include the applications for its 14 different sub categories of the term). At this point the term "Mary Sue" means so many things that it ends up meaning nothing outside of the character simply being poorly written in some way. (In which case, it would be better to tell me that you think the character is poorly written!) As a storyteller myself, if people told me I had a "Mary Sue" character in my story I wouldn't even know what they're referring to. It's a meaningless label that confuses communication rather than clarifies communication.

As for Rey herself,
SPOILER: Show
I do feel that the ending to The Force Awakens is rushed. But does anyone know why? Is Rey the poorly written character because she mysteriously overcomes the villain? If that's the case, wouldn't simply knowing about her mysterious backstory answer that mystery behind her abilities? If it does, well, it's still poor writing, but it's no longer what was considered the "Mary Sue," now is it? On the other hand, it could be that it was Kylo Ren who was poorly written, and not Rey. After all, it seems rather anti-climatic that a villain who could stop blaster beams in mid-air get bested by some noob. So the fault in character development could lie with Kylo, and not with Rey. (See what I mean by the "Mary Sue" being a meaningless title at the end of the day?)


That's all I have to say about that.


SPOILER: Show
Mary/Gary Stu get thrown around a lot but generally it's not just being poorly written, it's being poorly written in a way that the character can solve all challenges presented to them with basically no effort akin to if they were a fanfiction wish fulfillment insert character. Rey fits this. If you have to explain your character getting force powers with "they watched another character do it so now they can" (The equivalent of Aaron Carter being as good at basketball as Shaq because he watched him do a dunk once) then you're in full Mary/Gary Stu territory. Every single obstacle Rey encounters is easily dispatched by her. In A New Hope Luke required Obi Wan to save him, R2D2 to save him, and Han to save him. Rey on the other hand just is instantly good at everything she touches and then beats the bad guy.
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