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Nuclear Lunchbox
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:20 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And Civil War was horrible, but mainly because superhero registration is pretty damn sensible and they had Captain America be really fucking stupid about it. If you live in the U.S. you have the right to own firearms, but you don't get to keep it a freakin' secret -- even the NRA is on board with background checks and such. There's no earthly reason possession of superpowers should be any different. If you are a freakin' superhuman the authorities damn well have a right to know about it, because you're a freakin' superhuman. This isn't exactly rocket science.

How is this any different from the mutant registration from the first X-Man film again?

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:37 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:How is this any different from the mutant registration from the first X-Man film again?


Because it applies to everyone with powers rather than discriminating by power source.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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Postby Chuckman » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:47 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's not just mutants. If you can get bitten by a damn spider and turn into a superhero mutants are not your problem -- anyone could get powers by that point, and that's when you say "oh hey, wait a minute, what the fuck are we gonna do about this?"

And Civil War was horrible, but mainly because superhero registration is pretty damn sensible and they had Captain America be really fucking stupid about it. If you live in the U.S. you have the right to own firearms, but you don't get to keep it a freakin' secret -- even the NRA is on board with background checks and such. There's no earthly reason possession of superpowers should be any different. If you are a freakin' superhuman the authorities damn well have a right to know about it, because you're a freakin' superhuman. This isn't exactly rocket science.


Well Spidey is hated and feared, after all.

You're sort of sliding past my point, though. Mutants are scary because they can appear without warning. It both offends the American ideal of equality of opportunity (how are we equal if, when I hit puberty, I can move objects with my mind for no reason other than genetics?) and incites the american fear and intolerance of that which is different. I mean, one of the main members of the X-Men team has a power that's uncontrollable and incredibly dangerous and must be controlled artificially.

This guy has been continuously blasting energy beams from his eyes that can level buildings since he was a teenager and he can't switch it off. Just as I said, you, the average Marvel citizen, now have to fear that when your daughter goes to school one of her classmates will explode and level the building, start emitting radiation that gives her cancer, have aliens from the Negative Zone start crawling out of his asshole... or maybe he'll develop X-Ray vision and look at her naked for his spank bank, or develop psychic powers and manipulate her into deviant sexual acts.

Or maybe she'll do one of those things, and you can't. Or she gets a fever and five days later she's a leather lizard monster and kills herself.

People are unreasonably paranoid about minorities being around their kids now, imagine if the minorities could fly or teleport or breathe fire.

Other superheroes aren't as terrifying to the people because they're reproducible even if they're unique. I could put on an iron man suit or get bitten by a radioactive spider or be injected with super soldier serum or absorb gamma rays.

Now, you might say there are obvious reasons that isn't true (even in universe gamma radiation kills most people, only a very select few get powers from it) but that's how Americans think. That's why you can bamboozle people who make $30k a year to vote for taxes increases for themselves to preserve the riches of the wealthy: The fallacious believe that well, if the right obscenely unlikely things happen, that could be me!

I'm coming back around to my point: The X-Men are getting to be like Star Trek, hitting the same tired old noncontroversial points (we should tolerate people who are different! No, really?) instead of using the text of the books to say something about American culture.

Marvel comics used to be at the forefront of social movements and counterculture, now they're dragged behind, patting themselves on the back for being progressive. They're running on the fumes of their own hype.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the absolute worst thing Marvel did for mutants is make them all adults. If I was EIC I'd order that the X-Men end with all of the remaining mutants getting together to discuss mutancy when suddenly Cylops's head explodes and kills them all.

Then bam, reboot the concept of mutation with an entire new generation of mutants who are all under eighteen.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:04 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Because it applies to everyone with powers rather than discriminating by power source.

No other power sources existed in the first X-Men movie, so that point is moot. I'm asking why registration in Civil War was somehow justifiable when the plot of the X-Men movie was not.

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Postby StarShaper7 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:11 am

The real problem here is that the X-Men don't work as well when you make civil rights/equality the central theme of their books. Superheroes just don't work when you apply too much solid real world logic. Batman is a fascist's wet dream but is exempt because of the unrealism element that allows us to know that Batman really does have only good intentions.

Here's an essay on the very first issue of X-Men that explains why it makes more sense to view it in relation to Communism: [url]http://sequart.org/magazine/3201/x-men-is-not-an-allegory-of-racial-tolerance/[/url]

(I think I linked it on this thread sometime ago, actually)

Bryan Singer's X-Men movies were about gay rights. That's very apt in a modern context, but still kind of breaks down under scrutiny. The non-heterosexual people may be born that way and not because of a disease, but the fears of the haters would still be confirmed. The gays are as dangerous as they think they are and are superior to humans and on a genetic level.

This is really a problem arising from conflict/incompatibility between genre and theme. At some point, the superhero power fantasy and the message of human equality becomes dissonant. It makes sense to say that humans shouldn't discriminate against mutants and murder them because they think they're dangerous (which they are), but it wouldn't make sense to let them be part of normal society without treating them differently to some degree.

If I were in charge, I would cut that whole theme out of the equation, or maybe just use it as a secondary dynamic, like the linked article suggested. The central theme would be acceptance, which is flexible and can change depending on the story.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:27 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:No other power sources existed in the first X-Men movie, so that point is moot. I'm asking why registration in Civil War was somehow justifiable when the plot of the X-Men movie was not.


I just explained that, Nuke. Your claim that no other power sources existed in the X-Men movies is not established, so that's what's moot. SRA doesn't care about power source, MRA does. That's the difference. That's why one's reasonable and the other's not.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:31 am

View Original PostRay wrote:There actually was a Thor comic book that touched upon the issue. It was during the JMS run on thor where he rebuilt Asgard outside a small town in Kansas after Ragnarok where all the asgardian characters were killed (not really though, their souls were scattered upon earth and inhabited worthy human souls, it's complicated). The townsfolk were more or less welcoming of Thor. But the town Minister went through an existential crisis. Culminating in him giving a sermon about the topic.


It's so stupid though, Yahweh, and Jesus have both shown up in the MCU. And TOAA above may be GOD, though we don't know yet, I think the Living Tribunal made a comment on it.[/quote]
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Postby Rosenakahara » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:28 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And Civil War was horrible, but mainly because superhero registration is pretty damn sensible and they had Captain America be really fucking stupid about it. If you live in the U.S. you have the right to own firearms, but you don't get to keep it a freakin' secret -- even the NRA is on board with background checks and such. There's no earthly reason possession of superpowers should be any different. If you are a freakin' superhuman the authorities damn well have a right to know about it, because you're a freakin' superhuman. This isn't exactly rocket science.

There are various reasons civil war sucks, the main one for me is the the pro-reg people were painted as VILLAINS throughout most of it only being less so in their solo stories and then they won and we were supposed to root for the the whole time, its was just dumb.

As for the whole mutants thing I have to agree that it's played out a bit but what can you do, marvel has to milk their IP's
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:58 pm

TBH once Captain America picked a side any hope of moral ambiguity or an actual for/against split in the fanbase was lost, and don't get me started on Marvel's idiotic attempts to paint Cap as outmoded or whatever.

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Postby Ray » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:07 pm

And Civil War was horrible, but mainly because superhero registration is pretty damn sensible and they had Captain America be really fucking stupid about it. If you live in the U.S. you have the right to own firearms, but you don't get to keep it a freakin' secret -- even the NRA is on board with background checks and such. There's no earthly reason possession of superpowers should be any different. If you are a freakin' superhuman the authorities damn well have a right to know about it, because you're a freakin' superhuman. This isn't exactly rocket science.


Sorry Bags. I gotta defend Civil War, considering it was the comic book that got me into Marvel, and saved Marvel comics from bankruptcy.

Yeah, the Mark Millar written Civil war was a bit hamfisted. But the spinoff titles (particularly Iron Man, Spider-Man, and the Road to Civil War) were more even handed, giving both sides of the secret identity argument time to discuss their stances on the issue.

Captain America opposed for several relatively reasonable reasons.

1)What if the database with the names of all the registered heroes secret identities were hacked/leaked ala Snowden? There would be no way the US government could protect all the superheroes from all the supervillains who would come after heroes who opted to keep their identities secret.

2) If the superheroes were forced to become government agents. Then what happens when Uncle Sam starts telling them who the bad guys are? What if the US government started using superheroes as enforcers? Such as sending them to places like the Middle East or China to protect national interests?

3) Cruel and Unusual Methods of Enforcing the Law. Using The Negative Zone prison as a Superhero Guantanamo, Nanites in your bloodstream that could kill you instantly if you stepped out of line, not to mention restricting Habeaus Corpus when it comes to superpowered beings? That's just the tip of the iceberg.

SPOILER: Show


Image

Image


The thing is, Cap was against a law that restricted civil freedoms. But the thing he failed to realize that 'the people' the ordinary people. The people who have to live their everyday lives in fear of battles between gods and monsters killing them, WANTED the law to protect them. Out of fear, yes but they wanted it. When the people defended Tony, the one who said he had the safety of the people at heart. The people who have to suffer because of superhero battles.

Cap realized then and there that, if he really wanted to represent America he had to let 'we the people' make the choice for oirelves. Even if that choice goes against everything he believes in as an individual. That's ultimately what it comes down to. If people want security at the expense of personal liberty, you can't force them not to, or else how are you any better than the superpowers who lord their power over the ordinary man? That's what I took away from Civil War anyway.

and the Spider-Man: One More Day happened. . .
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:30 pm

You know what would be cool? Instead of saying 'what if' actually do it and explore the consequences.

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Postby Ray » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:33 pm

You know marvel would never do that. Because that would alienate their readers and divide their fan base, and lose profits, and who wants that?
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby StarShaper7 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:35 pm

Consequences? Fuck that shit right there in the butt, change and challenge don't accommodate my gentle manchild sensibilities.

I think it would be interesting to write a Nietzschean take on X-Men. The masters reject slave morality and reshape the world for the "better" as the overpeople at the end of the bridge that was man. I guess it would just end up being a copy of Marvicleman, though.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:51 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Captain America opposed for several relatively reasonable reasons.

1)What if the database with the names of all the registered heroes secret identities were hacked/leaked ala Snowden? There would be no way the US government could protect all the superheroes from all the supervillains who would come after heroes who opted to keep their identities secret.

2) If the superheroes were forced to become government agents. Then what happens when Uncle Sam starts telling them who the bad guys are? What if the US government started using superheroes as enforcers? Such as sending them to places like the Middle East or China to protect national interests?

3) Cruel and Unusual Methods of Enforcing the Law. Using The Negative Zone prison as a Superhero Guantanamo, Nanites in your bloodstream that could kill you instantly if you stepped out of line, not to mention restricting Habeaus Corpus when it comes to superpowered beings? That's just the tip of the iceberg.


None of those are reasonable. Storing the supers' names online would be asinine, the U.S. government can't press people into service by any means short of the draft, and the last bits were drafted specifically to justify Civil War, not because anyone with any sense would support such a thing (and all of those would be struck down the instant they came to light, 'cause the ACLU would have a field day with 'em). Cap looks reasonable because Millar tortured the fuck out of the setting to create a conflict there, not because his position has any merit to it.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: even the NRA supports responsible gun ownership. It is absurd to think that people should be able to walk around with superpowers with no oversight whatsoever, and positively insane to think the government should be expected to tolerate secret identities. If you can walk through walls it is unquestionably in the public interest to make sure the authorities are aware of that fact. That will not allow the U.S. government to press you into service as their minion: the U.S. Constitution applies to all persons in the United States, including superhumans. It will allow the government to regulate the use of superpowers, so that you can't blow shit up just because you feel like it. That's a good thing.

Leave the government aside for a minute. You know what Registration really means? Guaranteed employment, for life. I don't care what your power is, if you can do something other humans can't you automatically have a job, be it in the public or private sector. For any power you care to name, I can provide several lucrative uses for it. Registration is a fucking godsend for supers, particularly if they're part of the 15% of the U.S. population who are unemployed (or the much larger number that are underemployed).

The thing is, Cap was against a law that restricted civil freedoms. But the thing he failed to realize that 'the people' the ordinary people. The people who have to live their everyday lives in fear of battles between gods and monsters killing them, WANTED the law to protect them. Out of fear, yes but they wanted it. When the people defended Tony, the one who said he had the safety of the people at heart. The people who have to suffer because of superhero battles.


That false dichotomy is why Civil War was terrible. The SRA isn't about (or shouldn't be about) restricting ordinary personal freedoms. It should be about regulating the use of powers that, by definition, extend beyond the normal range of human experience. It is entirely reasonable that a community might want to do that.

View Original PostStarShaper7 wrote:Consequences? Fuck that shit right there in the butt, change and challenge don't accommodate my gentle manchild sensibilities.

I think it would be interesting to write a Nietzschean take on X-Men. The masters reject slave morality and reshape the world for the "better" as the overpeople at the end of the bridge that was man. I guess it would just end up being a copy of Marvicleman, though.


That's Aberrant, basically.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby movieartman » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:42 am

Johns & Ivan Reis (with inker Joe Prado) are back on Aquaman for rise of the seven seas after the current Bunn written arc/run is over... OMGYESSSSSSSSS!
I Never dared dream this glory would return to Aquaman but it is!
:D

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:01 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Johns & Ivan Reis (with inker Joe Prado) are back on Aquaman for rise of the seven seas after the current Bunn written arc/run is over... OMGYESSSSSSSSS!
I Never dared dream this glory would return to Aquaman but it is!
:D


I wish Aquaman had more respect in the nerd community, because he's had some very good runs on his book. Everyone treats him like he's a joke but he's actually pretty badass.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby movieartman » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:04 pm

Dis Ultimates art... so, soooo much win.
http://i.4cdn.org/co/1446843834137.jpg

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Postby Rosenakahara » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:11 am

Truly the greatest page ever:
SPOILER: Show
Image

Its done, comics can get no better than this time to pack it up people.
Also as i thought NOTHING HAS CHANGED the multiverse is just ever-so slightly smaller now big whoop, what was even the point of secret wars?
"She had better march back here and try again! I only send people off on my terms! ...Or in a casket."
I don't need a scabbard to sheathe my mind
What is going on is a concerted effort from anti-progressives to silence anyone who disagrees with them.-Bagheera 2016
The Twelve Kingdoms discussion thread

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:00 pm

I've always thought the Crisis did more harm than good but Marvel would never do something that bold.

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Postby Ray » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:51 pm

There's a Spider-Meme, universe?
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman


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