Lilith speaks to me. (And to you too!)

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Lilith speaks to me. (And to you too!)

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:01 am

Many people here seem to be of different opinions as to whether or not the switch between Adam and Lilith in NGE was intentional by the writers. Some say yes because of how the Angels were numbered from day one of the TV series, as well as some basic mechanics of the working between Angels and Humans that were being explored since the very beginning of the TV series. the numberings and mechanics of these things are all congruent with where Lilith and Adam were revealed standing by the end of the TV series. Realizing that standing between the creatures was just a little confusing. You can read more about that here, and maybe a few other places.

Others, however, see that the switch between the identities of Lilith and Adam are more of a retcon that was made to repair a mistake in the earlier episodes. They think that the writers either confused the two creatures with one another from the very start, while others entertain the idea that Lilith was simply made up on the spot sometime after Episode 15 to include Humans more intimately into the Angelic battle for Instrumentality. One of the reasons why they think this, is because of Kaworu's reaction to Lilith in Episode 24, particularly the Extended Video Version of Ep 24.

In the original OA of Ep 24, Kaworu seems to believe all the time that Adam is in the basement of Nerv, and who knows about all this weird Lilith stuff? Nobody really just yet. Not the audience, that's for sure. He steals Asuka's dormant Unit 02 to use as a bodyguard against Shinji's synchronized Unit 01, and breaks into Dogma only to find that, OMG! That's not Adam. That's Lilith. This. Changes. EVERYTHING.

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"Awww, shit."

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However, in the Extended Video release, we have this weird scene placed sometime before Kaworu's cave-diving adventures. In it, Kaworu is told by Seele themselves that Adam is somewhere other than the basement.

SPOILER: Show
"Within Ikari" sound really vague, no that I'm thinking about it.

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So why would Kaowru go into the basement expecting to find Adam anyway? He even seems to still be referring to Lilith as "Adam."

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"Boy Gendo, you've really let yourself go. So, where exactly to I have to probe within you to find Adam?"

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Why would Kaworu go into the basement if he already knew Adam wasn't there? I mean, that's the only reason why Angels go into Nerv's basement, right? To find Adam and merge with him? (Or her? Kaworu did call Adam "Mother.")

"Easy answer," I hear you all saying. "It's a plot hole! Plain and simple." I, however, hesitate to call it such.

Remember back to that confusing conversation in the Extended scene? The one that revealed to Kaworu where Adam really was? There was a bit more to it than that. They also talk of Gendo prematurely "closing Pandora's Box."

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Also, the scene in where Kaworu gets some dramatic edge-lighting.


This is the interesting part to me. In this scene they are referring to Lilith, the mother of Lilin, as man's "Hope." The way in which they refer to this speaks more of preventing this from happening, destroying it even, before the Lilim can access Lilith.

This give Kaworu reason to go down into Nerv's basement. He probably knows of the whole plan at this point. (Do you honestly think Seele wouldn't educate their Sleeper Angel Agent before deploying him on a mission?) He doesn't believe in Man's "Hope," ("You're saying that is the Lilim's hope?") and he's going to remove it from their options. He is finding Lilith, and he's going to destroy her.

When he finally reaches Nerv's basement, he's in the middle of an existential crisis. He's not referring to the creature in front of him as "Adam," rather he's merely thinking through his ultimate purpose in life while destroying man's hope. There he is, about to destroy Man's only hope, and to what end?

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I guess that little bed-side talk he had with Shinji was more of a bonding moment than I had realized...


But despite his existential crisis triggered by his relationship with Shinji, he still seems to be trying to go through with this plan. So what triggers him to finally turn away from his mission and literally keep man's hope alive?

Lilith speaks to him.

We've seen Lilith speak later on in the series. We didn't hear it, but we've seen it. She speaks to Rei in EoE.

SPOILER: Show
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Some translations say "Welcome home," others say "Welcome back."


And in the moments of Lilith speaking to Rei, the framing and blocking matches pretty well with the scene of Kaworu's realization in front of Lilith. This can be seen as the filmmakers trying to visually clue us in onto what's going on my comparing the two images we see in the telling of the story.

SPOILER: Show
There is some difference, mainly the intimacy implied with Rei's scene as opposed to the distance shown in Kaworu's scene.

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Now, we're not shown what it was Lilith said to Kaowru. What she said wan't important. What's important was Kaworu's response to Lilith. He squints his eyes for a few seconds at first, as though reacting to something that only he can hear. And then...

SPOILER: Show
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Whatever Lilith might have told him was enough to give Kaworu reason to go with his changed heart and not destroy man's only hope. And, just like every good Angel in the series, he parts way with us through death by the hand of an Evangelion Unit.

What do you guys think? Does this theory hold any water? Or am I just spinning my wheels about this?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:12 am

Earlier relevant discussions

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/11183/Filling-the-24-Plot-Hole-Once-and-for-All/

Other possibly related threads
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/16326/Episode-24-is-problematic/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/11166/Episode-24-Directors-Cut/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/8887/Personal-Thoughts-on-Episode-24/
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Postby cody727kirby » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:02 am

I really, really like your idea (the framing especially, nice catch) but the reaction that Kaworu gives when he sees Lilith seems to be more of shock that it's not Adam, specifically from the line "No, this is... Lilith".

From the Kaworu's Agenda Wiki:
Japanese has a more nuanced view of "no" than does English, using different words depending upon whether the speaker means "No, I refuse," "No, that is incorrect," etc. In this case Kaworu says "Chigau! Kore wa... Ririsu? (Lilith)!" Chigau means "to differ," and thus in this context, "No, this is different than I thought." While the more likely interpretation of the line is "No, this isn't Adam, this is Lilith," as Kaowru was just questioning his instinctive mission to destroy mankind, it could also be intrepreted as meaning "No, because I now realize that this is Lilith, I don't have to destroy them." It could also be serving both purposes at once.

[url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Kaworu's_Agenda#cite_note-2[/url]

Kaworu would have to be acting that he doesn't know that it's Lilith for this theory to work, right?

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:28 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What do you guys think? Does this theory hold any water? Or am I just spinning my wheels about this?


My only complaint, which derails the whole thing, is that I don't think Lilith is the hope Seele was referring to. By my reading they know Gendo is working against them, and that he is looking to derail their plans -- so, he is attempting to start 3I on his terms (opening Pandora's box), but is not committed to seeing the HIP through to completion (the hope at the bottom of the box). Lilith is instrumental in realizing that plan, so I don't think Seele would send Kaworu/Tabris to destroy her.

That aside, it's certainly possible Lilith spoke to Kaworu. But, in light of the above, I have no idea what she might have said. The whole scene remains a mystery to me, not least because it can't be a plot hole -- the scene by the lake is what throws everything topsy-turvy, and we know it was deliberately added after the fact. There's no reason Anno would intentionally add a plot hole to his own show, so I'm left thinking this is probably a translation issue and that there's some nuance here that we're missing (though as I recall Japanese viewers are just as confused about this as we are, so who knows?).

View Original Postcody727kirby wrote:Kaworu would have to be acting that he doesn't know that it's Lilith for this theory to work, right?


The only theory I have encountered that is entirely self-consistent is the Casablanca theory, which posits that, yes, Kaworu was acting the whole time. The only problem is that it directly contradicts all the themes and subtext of the episode -- it forces Kaworu to be feigning friendship with Shinji, to be feigning ignorance re: Adam and Lilith, and to be playing a role for the sake of Rei. There are good arguments to be made in support of this theory -- I've made them, in fact! -- but I remain unsatisfied, since I think Anno would have dropped some clues if that was really his intent. But nothing else seems to work.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:13 pm

That would still be a retcon since you're invoking EoE to explain something in the original version.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:19 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:That would still be a retcon since you're invoking EoE to explain something in the original version.


I don't see how it matters to the argument one way or the other.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:52 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:That would still be a retcon since you're invoking EoE to explain something in the original version.

I think we see Lilith speak in EoTV as well. What some of the title cards say tend to sound like questions Rei would also ask others.
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Postby cody727kirby » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:05 pm

Is Lilith (GNR?) the one speaking to Shinji (white text on black screen) in EoTV 25 and 26?

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Postby NemZ » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:10 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I think we see Lilith speak in EoTV as well. What some of the title cards say tend to sound like questions Rei would also ask others.


Perhaps, but without seeing this happen in relation to this specific 'floating before lilith' framing there's no reason to connect them. Also the idea that only in retrospect could 24 make sense really bugs me because 24' wasn't even an afterthought until much later.

Creative argument, but I don't buy it. Not the least of which because I'm not convinced there's anything in Lilith at all. The "welcome home" is implied by the greeting Rei offers as just a Japanese thing, it doesn't need a speaker for it to be practically demanded.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:58 pm

View Original Postcody727kirby wrote:Is Lilith (GNR?) the one speaking to Shinji (white text on black screen) in EoTV 25 and 26?

I like to think so, yes. Though, I will only go so far as to say that it's the title cards with the brackets [] around them that signify Lilith's speech, since that would be congruent with what we see twice in EoE. (The second time this happens is in the live-action scene.) The other text that appears in EoTV without the brackets, on the other hand, I wouldn't claim to come from Lilith. In the near future, I'd like to store some screen caps of al of the text in brackets we see in EoTV and discuss them on this thread as well.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Perhaps, but without seeing this happen in relation to this specific 'floating before lilith' framing there's no reason to connect them. Also the idea that only in retrospect could 24 make sense really bugs me because 24' wasn't even an afterthought until much later.

Creative argument, but I don't buy it. Not the least of which because I'm not convinced there's anything in Lilith at all. The "welcome home" is implied by the greeting Rei offers as just a Japanese thing, it doesn't need a speaker for it to be practically demanded.

When it comes to the question of Lilith's speech, 24' specifically really has nothing to do with that possibility, since the exact scene was also present in OA 24. And originally Ep 25 and 26 were supposed to be bits of EoE. It was a technical error that forced the production to shift in the direction they did with EoTV at the last minute. So I don't doubt that the mirroring visuals of both Kaworu's scene and Rei's scene in front of Lilith were supposed to tie into something like this.

As for the "welcome home" piece in EoE not demanding a speaker got respond, Episode 9 actually addresses this in a very unique way:

SPOILER: Show
"Just me, clearly not getting a 'welcome home' response today..."

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The filmmakers seem to highlight the moments where "I'm home," is absent the response "Welcome home." If the narrative introduces it properly in Episode 1, and then highlights it's absence in later episodes, then it's return to proper form in the end, by having a literal "call and response," is significant to the underlying thematic elements and character dynamics in the narrative. In the case of it's return to form, it highlights the dynamics between Lilith and Rei.
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Postby Monk Ed » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:21 am

A classic image-filled Evangelion theory-and-analysis longpost. :jiggy: And presenting a proposition I'd never heard before!

I suppose I should get out of the way first the fact that I already have my own opinion about what's going on in those scenes that sets a high bar for me for what other competing interpretations would have to provide.

But even given that, I find your suggestion hard to swallow because of the extent to which it requires interpreting around the otherwise plain meaning of Kaworu's words and actions in the Terminal Dogma scene. In context, the way his eyes narrow and the words he says all combine naturally to present a picture of a man discovering that the Adam he thought was Adam was actually a Lilith all along. It's not a scene filled with haughty, weird, and ambiguous language like the lake scene; it comes together so naturally that I find such fine parsing tortured. In short, I feel that by the time an analyst has gotten to that level, there has to be a simpler answer, perhaps easily ignored.

To give a similar example: When I read a convincing analysis explaining why "I needed you" (in some temporal tense or another) fits perfectly with the intra- and extratextual evidence surrounding Gendo's infamous silenced line, I almost didn't want to believe that it could be something so simple, unconvoluted, and unprofound. Let's not anybody get distracted by whether or not that is actually Gendo's silenced line; the moral of the story is that I became convinced of a much simpler answer that I never seriously considered before because it just seemed too simple. (And also that said simple answer was not just "There is no line" in that particular case or "It's just a plot hole" in the current case.)

When it comes to the question of why it is Kaworu went to Terminal Dogma in search of his body after already being told it was in Gendo, I think the answer could be something just as simple -- some nuance of language in Seele's dialogue in the lake scene that need not even be lost in translation.
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Postby Rei IV » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:16 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:To give a similar example: When I read a convincing analysis explaining why "I needed you" (in some temporal tense or another) fits perfectly with the intra- and extratextual evidence surrounding Gendo's infamous silenced line, I almost didn't want to believe that it could be something so simple, unconvoluted, and unprofound. Let's not anybody get distracted by whether or not that is actually Gendo's silenced line; the moral of the story is that I became convinced of a much simpler answer that I never seriously considered before because it just seemed too simple. (And also that said simple answer was not just "There is no line" in that particular case or "It's just a plot hole" in the current case.)

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View Original PostFrom a Monk_Ed, 6 years ago wrote:Major credit goes to Eva Yojimbo from EvaGeeks.org, the man who figured it out.

His post, which is actually kind of old:

We know that Anno uses recurring motifs in NGE all the time - in the dialogue, in the visuals, pretty much everywhere. So I kept thinking that Gendo's last line has to be hinted at somewhere in the show.

Lo, and behold, the second time around what do I see? Ep. 21 when Ritsuko first comes to NERV. After Yui's fateful (kinda) encounter with Shogouki we see Naoko, frustrated, talking to Gendo with Ritsuko watching in the background. The conversation goes:

Naoko: Is it true?
Gendo: Yes, I have no regrets concerning my work.
Naoko: Liar! You just can't forget about Yui, can you?

Remember Ritsuko talking about hating her mother? I think her affection for Gendo started long before she joined NERV and when she found out her mother was involved, she wasn't a happy camper. Some other ideas pertaining to my theory is that:

1. We know Ritsuko DIDN'T want to end up like her mother. Yet she had fallen for the same guy, and been (or, atleast felt she had been) betrayed by him.

2. I've heard it said that Gendo resembles Anno somewhat. I don't think this is a coincidence because I've often felt Gendo's "evil mastermind with a longing to see his dead wife" came from a very heartfelt place. It's hard to make someone be such a cold bastard yet seem so worth pitying, even feeling sorry for, in EoE where he finally gets to see Yui again. I think that perhaps (although it's just me guessing) that Gendo might be Anno's psychological portrayal of himself. If I'm right, that would make the final line also important pertaining to Anno's thoughts and feelings (perhaps the reason he silenced the line, because it had a deeper meaning to him).

3. The voice actor's statement about the line:

"I looked for a way to accept her death at the hands of Ikari.
This made the interpretation of "Liar" very important. But the voice-over grew nearer and nearer....

Director Anno must have noticed how I felt. When it came time to do the voice-over, he showed me
a single, hidden hint at the last moment. With that one incredible hint, I, and Ritsuko Akagi, were
utterly defeated. It hardly needs saying, but Director Anno is incredible. Truly awesome -- a genius."

Something that totally defeated her. Noticed Anno showed her a single hidden hint. If that hint was that scene, I think it makes perfect sense.

So the line is:

'Ritsuko, I truly'

"have no regrets concerning my work."

Think how this totally syncs up with everything. Ritsuko seeing the same line fed to her as her mother, and realizing the same fate will befall her in the end, that she couldn't escape the mother she hated's shadow. How it pertains to Gendo's feelings about using people to acheive his goals, even though it's cost him everything.

Then notice how it pertains to Anno's feelings. He has no regrets concerning his work. If Gendo represents Anno, then that line could be one of those half truths. He's proud of his work, but saddened by what it's cost him, hence Ritsuko's and Naoko's "Liar".

I found this gem looking for a more in-depth analysis of Ritz and Gendo's final confrontation and her death. DA MOST POWERFUL SCENE IN EVA EVA!
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:29 am

I personally just think that Gendo's line was never all that important. I think we might even be seeing it from Ritsuko's POV. Not only does the camera perspective line up with where Ritsuko is standing, but the audio also dip out, as though Ritsuko is thinking "It doesn't matter what he says at this point anymore. He's a lair." This is, of course, how she responds.

This isn't to say that Gendo's line can't be something we can figure out, maybe even something we already know. I just don't think it's all that important. Or at least, the line isn't as important as the inability to hear it is.
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Postby Rei IV » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:33 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I personally just think that Gendo's line was never all that important. I think we might even be seeing it from Ritsuko's POV. Not only does the camera perspective line up with where Ritsuko is standing, but the audio also dip out, as though Ritsuko is thinking "It doesn't matter what he says at this point anymore. He's a lair." This is, of course, how she responds.

This isn't to say that Gendo's line can't be something we can figure out, maybe even something we already know. I just don't think it's all that important. Or at least, the line isn't as important as the inability to hear it is.

:hahaha:

Sorry for hijacking the thread but when Monk mentioned the Ritz/Gendo scene and the possible 'I needed you" line and remembered reading a thread topic by a Monk_Ed, I had to post it!
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Postby unz » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:22 am

I'm supposed to go through 10+ threads to avoid repetition and confront opinions so I'll just spare you a long ass post but you likely got some sort of answer to lilith's lines in EoE when Rei and kaworu spell out what kind of hopes they stand for.
I think these lilith lines are too revealing so they are muted but you are supposed to realize adam (02) eating lilith generates monsters, I'm not even sure that is what is going on. Q plays it differently with Shinji being the one to mess it up.


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