Gendou & Yui, and Seele's intentions

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Gendou & Yui, and Seele's intentions

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Postby Lavinius » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:10 pm

How much awareness did Gendou have of Yui?

The consensus seems to be that Gendou had little to no idea of Yui's agency, that his plan about Instrumentality was separate from hers, that Yui had confided in Kouzou but not in her bloody husband and the bloody Gehirn/Nerv commander, and that Kouzou had further kept this secret from Gendou.

On the other hand, Gendou's plan throughout the entire bloody series depends on Yui's agency! Put Shinji or Rei in her, half as an excuse, if they can kill the Angel, fine- but he can't expect that, and we see that, and he doesn't. He relies on Yui to kill anything more powerful than a Shinji, and isn't surprised at all when she does kill it, and neither is Kouzou.

Moreover Kouzou even directly mentions to Gendou "the will of she who remained in the Eva", which Gendou shows absolutely no shock at. And right to the end there's no conflict between the two.

So where exactly is the idea that Gendou's and Yui's plans differed in any respect coming from? That Yui apparently ate Gendou? But that's attributable to any number of other things, and indeed the reason for Gendou's sorrow- his treatment of Shinji- is directly stated right before- not "I'm sorry because I didn't realize you could stop Instrumentality".

---

A separate question, and an old one: what was Seele trying to accomplish? The last we saw, Kiel was quite happy to see the hijacked Kaworu-x-Rei killing all life (except Kaworu-x-Rei), including the very Evas they were using to control Kaworu-x-Rei.

But Seele must have miscalculated! They must have missed something- I've assumed this was Yui's agency- but if this was the case, what else than reversing the unfortunate act were they expecting Kaworu-x-Rei to do as soon as Kaworu-x-Rei was alone and free of their influence? And how did they hope to benefit from it?

Alternatively, it's not impossible that Kiel was just as deluded about his god being present as Maya was about Ritsuko's presence. But if so, when did they lose control? When did their Evas stop taking their orders and yet still carry them out?

Wasn't Seele going on about using Unit-01 as a "private ark" earlier? But when did they make the slightest attempt to... upload their souls into it, or any such thing? But, of course, using Unit-01 as a "private ark" was exactly what occurred, whether it's preserving Shinji and Yui through the slaughter, or preserving Yui forever afterwards. Was that simply a way of mocking Gendou's faction and their plan, another instance of Seele's weird, ironic sense of humor? It seems unlikely.
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Re: Gendou & Yui, and Seele's intentions

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Postby Monk Ed » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:47 am

View Original PostLavinius wrote:So where exactly is the idea that Gendou's and Yui's plans differed in any respect coming from?

I think it ultimately comes down to the fact that Yui went off on her own into space (and acted like it was what she was going to do all along) whereas Gendo wanted to be with her in whatever way he could. Apparently, he was ultimately denied that, unless we don't take Yui's "It will be lonely" line at face value (taking into consideration that it's something she said some 15 years ago) and suppose that the eating of Gendo was not merely punishment for his treatment of Shinji and others but also her way of absorbing him into the core to be with her in space. (I remember reading Reichu propose this idea.)

A separate question, and an old one: what was Seele trying to accomplish?

When you talk about Seele saying stuff about a private ark, are you referring to this? (source: beginning of EoE)
[code:1]
SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.

SEELE 12:
It is merely a rite of passage... To bring about the rebirth in those who are imprisoned.

SEELE 05(?):
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death.
[/code:1]
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Re: Gendou & Yui, and Seele's intentions

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Postby Lavinius » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:45 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:I think it ultimately comes down to the fact that Yui went off on her own into space (and acted like it was what she was going to do all along) whereas Gendo wanted to be with her in whatever way he could. Apparently, he was ultimately denied that...
That's not an unreasonable point, but given all the other evidence I don't think it stands.

Gendou, well, he did want to see Yui again, and he did get to see her again... if we can take what we're seeing there as an honest encounter with Yui, which I think we can, for thematic reasons... but, of course, he did see her again. Perhaps not under the best of circumstances, and perhaps not for long, but the former can't be helped, and the as for the latter, what he planned to say and do, and what he could say and do, and what he truly wanted and needed to say and do, aren't necessary identical.

An associated idea that seems as clear as Rei to me: The credits song, Thanatos, is sung from Gendou's perspective at the time in the narrative that it interrupts, as he's in Terminal Dogma about to do the deed.

Anyway, I get the impression that Gendou died there, forever, in resignation- whether in "I've achieved my goal" or "I've failed and don't deserve anything more" doesn't really matter. Actually, probably in both ways, just in resignation. Possibly also due to Seele's or Shinji's will.

If he did not really die permanently, and Yui did not take him (and I see no reason to suppose that she did, and plenty that she did not), then I think the reasons are obvious- as penance for his neglect of Shinji, and to try to make amends with him.

---
[code:1]SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.[/code:1]

This translation is very different from the line I remember, which is more like, "we don't need to abandon our human forms to use Unit-01 as our own personal ark"... which would seem to imply that... they're all going to try to cram into the entry plug? Ridiculous!
I'm guessing, then, that I was just working from a faulty memory or translation, or more likely both. That resolves some of my worries, though. :asuka_thumbsup:
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:29 am

This is something I noticed yesterday when going through the bochan_bird text and replacing the content of a pre-existing .ass file of unstated provenance. This line about the Ark of Eva (like many of the lines dealing with the process of 3I/HIP) were significantly at variance.

as found subs wrote:The time is at hand.
Without the Lance of Longinus,
we cannot use Lilith\Nto complete the Project.
Our only hope is to proceed\Nusing Lilith's only true offspring
Eva Unit 01.
That was not part of\NSEELE's original plan.
Creating the Evangelion was the\Npinnacle of mankind's existence.
Humanity must evolve and\Nshape this brave new world.
That was why we created\Nthe Eva Series.
We need not cast aside\Nour human form...
to use Evangelion\Nas our own private Ark.
It's merely part of the process\Nto free us all for rebirth.


bochan_bird wrote:SEELE 01 (Keel):
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

Gendo:
While different from SEELE's scenario...

Fuyutsuki:
Humans have existed to create Eva. (ambiguous)

Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.

SEELE 12:
It is merely a rite of passage... To bring about the rebirth in those who are imprisoned.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:16 am

Hmm. That falls in line with my contention (elsewhere) that the original plan was for everyone to eventually become evas and for humanity then to live as an entire race of individual nearly immortal godlings. Gendo is complaining that they aren't following the script he laid out for them all those years ago... not that he plans to follow it either.
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Postby Sachi » Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:16 am

Regarding the question about Yui and Gendo: I believe the biggest reason to believe that they weren't on the same page regarding their plans is that fact the she didn't tell him of her intention to be absorbed into Unit-01. He doesn't cope well with her disappearance at all, and his desperate hope of getting her back is what lead to his subsequent proposal to Seele for the Human Instrumentality Project. Had he been aware of her intentions with Unit-01, he wouldn't have reacted the way he did.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:33 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Hmm. That falls in line with my contention (elsewhere) that the original plan was for everyone to eventually become evas and for humanity then to live as an entire race of individual nearly immortal godlings. Gendo is complaining that they aren't following the script he laid out for them all those years ago... not that he plans to follow it either.


So is this
SPOILER: Show
Image
a glimpse into Seele's original plans for Instrumentality? They complained that they couldn't do things as planned since they no longer had the Lance, but here they did. Two of them, along with their True Evangelion. For whatever it's worth, in one of the endings of NGE2, a third Mystery Seed tells Kaworu he can use the Lance to wish for a new beginning and it will allow the Angels to change/abandon their forms to be reborn.

Yui's goal seems straightforward: She wants to give Shinji (and humanity by extension) a future, and that involves stopping Seele's plans. Humanity is reborn if it chooses to be, the Evas and Angels are all destroyed, and humanity attains a sort of immortality through Unit 01.

Gendo's intention is the one I can't quite figure out. It isn't the same as Seele or Yui's, and he needs Unit 01 awakened, Adam, Rei, and Lilith so he can be reunited with Yui, and then...what? Was Lilith going to pull Yui out of Unit 01? Was everyone else going to go into it with her?
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:36 am

I don't think the FoI were transformed humans

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14723/Speculation-a-new-take-on-the-Failures-of-Infinity/
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:34 am

I'm not sure what they are, but that's a debate for another thread. I was just wondering if that image is what Seele's Instrumentality could have looked like in NGE if they'd had all the pieces they claimed they needed.

Seele really seems like their grand scenario was made up on the fly. They complained that Unit 01 was a blasphemy, but they were trying to put an S2 engine in Unit 04 and then built 9 more. They didn't need Unit 01, then they did.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:17 pm

I'd prefer to keep Rebuild all in it's own pocket and not use it to discuss anything in the original. Same with any extraneous sources.
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Postby Lavinius » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:15 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Regarding the question about Yui and Gendo: I believe the biggest reason to believe that they weren't on the same page regarding their plans is that fact the she didn't tell him of her intention to be absorbed into Unit-01. He doesn't cope well with her disappearance at all, and his desperate hope of getting her back is what lead to his subsequent proposal to Seele for the Human Instrumentality Project. Had he been aware of her intentions with Unit-01, he wouldn't have reacted the way he did.
But did she not tell him? Remember, Kouzou mentions that Yui stayed in the Eva on purpose to Gendou quite casually, and Gendou isn't surprised.

Further evidence of Gendou's awareness of Yui, of their cooperation, is episode 13. The threat, obviously, is that Lilith will be destroyed, along with Nerv HQ and everyone in it (including him and Kouzou). What does he do, to ensure that even if worst comes to worst there's still a chance? He gets Yui out of there. And then stays there and tries to avoid worst coming to worst. So we see that he trusts, or at least has good hope that, even without his help, Yui will be sufficient to produce a desirable outcome to Seele's Third Impact attempt when it did come (using her in Lilith's place). Otherwise he'd have to have fled with her, or at least sent Kouzou in his place. But he did neither.

As for evidence that Seele really did almost succeed in their plan, notice that we never cut to them being displeased with the ritual they perform. That's really all I can think of. Am I not the one who first questioned if Kiel's approval was informed anyway?

---
View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Seele really seems like their grand scenario was made up on the fly. They complained that Unit 01 was a blasphemy, but they were trying to put an S2 engine in Unit 04 and then built 9 more. They didn't need Unit 01, then they did.
Putting Fruits of Life into an Adamblood isn't offensive any more than putting a Fruit of Knowledge into a Lilithblood is. It's only when both Fruits are present in one entity that a "god" is created and it's "blasphemous".
Last edited by Lavinius on Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:20 am

Lavinius tearin' it up.

To answer BlueBasilisk as to why Seele "didn't need Unit 01, then they did", it's right there in the beginning of EoE:

EoE script, Bochan Bird wrote:SEELE 01 (Keel):
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

So, they only used Unit 01 in the end because Gendo forced them to, according to them.
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Postby Iuvenal » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:57 am

That doesn't make sense, though - they have nine other cloned lances, why can't they use one of those on Lilith? That hasn't been revealed yet to the viewer at that part of the movie, but SEELE knows that.
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Postby Lavinius » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:56 am

View Original PostIuvenal wrote:That doesn't make sense, though - they have nine other cloned lances, why can't they use one of those on Lilith? That hasn't been revealed yet to the viewer at that part of the movie, but SEELE knows that.
Seele's cloned lances are inferior to the original. Lilith is stronger than Yui (or they still think that Yui is obeying their orders) so she can't be controlled as easily.

---

Something to add which I've mentioned but haven't justified: it's my opinion that Seele are influencing Kaworu-x-Rei (though not completely) from when their Evas start "resonating" with Lilith to their Evas' destructions. It's the only way for their plan and their thinking that their plan is working to make any sense at all. If they're not in control, than what the hell is this all about? Rei asking Shinji what to do could produce almost any outcome, especially given that she and Kaworu love him and they're bloody gods. And, of course, what happens once Seele's Evas are killed? Kaworu and Rei start acting much more reasonably and lovingly.

(Bagheera's position, iirc, is that Kaworu-x-Rei's field of activity is similarly limited, but that this is instead the result of some overriding Seed programming or such. I don't see much reason to suppose this to be the case, and moreover it leaves the "resonation" unexplained.)

Further note that the only other time we saw effects similar to the "resonation" (viz. the assumption of Rei-forms and growth of Rei-heads) it was in 23', when Armisael was trying to control Rei!

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:12 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Regarding the question about Yui and Gendo: I believe the biggest reason to believe that they weren't on the same page regarding their plans is that fact the she didn't tell him of her intention to be absorbed into Unit-01. He doesn't cope well with her disappearance at all, and his desperate hope of getting her back is what lead to his subsequent proposal to Seele for the Human Instrumentality Project. Had he been aware of her intentions with Unit-01, he wouldn't have reacted the way he did.


This does raise an interesting question, though: if Gendo came up with the HIP to be reunited with Yui, then what was Seele's original plan? What exactly was it that Yui was hoping to thwart, and how did it justify blowing up Antarctica, releasing the Angels, and wasting all that time and money on the development of the Evangelions?

View Original PostLavinius wrote:(Bagheera's position, iirc, is that Kaworu-x-Rei's field of activity is similarly limited, but that this is instead the result of some overriding Seed programming or such. I don't see much reason to suppose this to be the case, and moreover it leaves the "resonation" unexplained.)


The reason to believe this is the case is simple: neither Rei nor Kaworu display the slightest bit of agency in EoE. It is irrational for them to dump all of this on a traumatized boy, vs. using their vast stores of knowledge (which they had access to at the time) to make a decision on the matter on their own. The narrative reason for going this route is of course obvious, but it still has to be justified somehow.

As to the resonation, I am unclear on why you think Seele is in control there. The fact the MPEs took on Lilith's appearance makes it clear that she has commandeered them and is at that point in control of the proceedings.
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Postby cody727kirby » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:29 pm

Episode 24:

Gendo:
Soon, the final Angel will appear.
If we destroy it, our wish will come true.
Just a little longer, Yui.


Was the "personal ark" plan that Gendo had, also Yui's original plan before her CE (minus allowing Gendo to remain with her in Unit 01)? She ended up having the same results for humanity as Gendo's "personal ark" plan with her own executed plan; it just didn't include Gendo, since she wanted to remain as the sole eternal beacon of humanity.

Episode 26':

Yui:
It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

Fuyutsuki:
It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...


And, of course, Gendo's entire plan is to reunite with Yui. Clearly they're not on the same page, evidence that Yui didn't reveal Gendo of her own plans.

The idea that Yui's original plan was the "personal ark" plan, is also evidenced in Yui's confidant and mentor Fuyutuski's quotes, also in support of the "personal ark" plan.

Episode 21':

Fuyutsuki (to Yui):
I support your ideas, not Seele's.


Episode 26':

Fuyutsuki:
Will it become the Ark to save humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact? Or the demon that destroys us all? Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.

Fuyutsuki:
The egg of Lilith... the genesis of human life... the Black Moon... We have no desire to return to that empty shell


Regarding the "personal ark" plan translation:
View Original PostLavinius wrote:This translation is very different from the line I remember, which is more like, "we don't need to abandon our human forms to use Unit-01 as our own personal ark"... which would seem to imply that... they're all going to try to cram into the entry plug? Ridiculous!
I'm guessing, then, that I was just working from a faulty memory or translation, or more likely both. That resolves some of my worries, though. :asuka_thumbsup:


This "personal ark" plan was confirmed in NGE2 in Gendo's Good Ending (I know, supplemental info, but hey, it's there): http://forum.evageeks.org/post/791645/NGE2-Alternate-Outcome-Translations-3I-Etc/#791645

EDITS: Added response and cleaned up formatting... several times
Last edited by cody727kirby on Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:21 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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Postby Lavinius » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:55 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:This does raise an interesting question, though: if Gendo came up with the HIP to be reunited with Yui, then what was Seele's original plan? What exactly was it that Yui was hoping to thwart, and how did it justify blowing up Antarctica, releasing the Angels, and wasting all that time and money on the development of the Evangelions?
I assumed that what Gendou came up with was a practical plan as to how to carry out Seele's preexisting goals. Like, if Seele wanted to build a house, Gendou would have drawn up the plans, chosen a location, decided what contractors to use, and so on.

---
View Original PostBagheera wrote:The reason to believe this is the case is simple: neither Rei nor Kaworu display the slightest bit of agency in EoE. It is irrational for them to dump all of this on a traumatized boy, vs. using their vast stores of knowledge (which they had access to at the time) to make a decision on the matter on their own. The narrative reason for going this route is of course obvious, but it still has to be justified somehow.
"Display the slightest bit of agency in EoE"- I'll grant that they don't display agency during the time mentioned (which of course my theory is based on), but outside of that window...

So I'll assume that you're refering to the later contemplative period in which they talk with Shinji about what is to be done. I suppose your argument that they should have just done what they did regardless of what Shinji said.

I admit that I haven't had thought much about what exactly is going on there in regards to Rei.

That said, to your objection I for now reply:
1) Even if they were going to do that anyway (which I no longer hold to), having Shinji come to the conclusion himself is certainly better for him than foisting it on him.
2) Is it inconceivable that Rei is genuinely uncertain as to what should be done? That she is unsure what she wants, what she should do? That she wishes to consult with someone dear to her?
3) Shouldn't a Lilin have some say in what is done about Lilin?

"But Shinji is traumatized or whatnot-" What should they have done, then? Cherrypicked a Lilin representative, grabbed a particularly fortunate individual to judge whether everyone else's suffering is worth it? If anything, given the history of man and life, their "vast stores of knowledge" are more likely to convince them to let everyone stay dead than to let it continue. Seele would seem a hell of a lot more right if you're getting your entrails ripped out and eaten than if you're the lion enjoying a pleasant meal. (Schopenhauer paraphrase)

---
View Original PostBagheera wrote:As to the resonation, I am unclear on why you think Seele is in control there. The fact the MPEs took on Lilith's appearance makes it clear that she has commandeered them and is at that point in control of the proceedings.
That might be a reasonable assumption devoid of context, but it's opposed by Seele's resulting approval of proceedings which you would have them have no control over- indeed, which would be going very, very wrong. And again, as I pointed out, the precedent of Armisael shows us that, contrary to what we might assume otherwise, growing Rei-faces means that you're controlling Rei, not the other way around.
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Re:

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Postby Devas » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:40 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Regarding the question about Yui and Gendo: I believe the biggest reason to believe that they weren't on the same page regarding their plans is that fact the she didn't tell him of her intention to be absorbed into Unit-01. He doesn't cope well with her disappearance at all, and his desperate hope of getting her back is what lead to his subsequent proposal to Seele for the Human Instrumentality Project. Had he been aware of her intentions with Unit-01, he wouldn't have reacted the way he did.


That could be explained in another way. Maybe both have the same goals. But would Gendo pay the price of losing her to have a victory against Seele?. I think he wouldn't. So she can't tell him she's going to do that, because he'll try to avoid it.

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Re: Rei did nothing wrong <3

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Postby NemZ » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:This does raise an interesting question, though: if Gendo came up with the HIP to be reunited with Yui, then what was Seele's original plan? What exactly was it that Yui was hoping to thwart, and how did it justify blowing up Antarctica, releasing the Angels, and wasting all that time and money on the development of the Evangelions?


Ahh, but the evangelion project and development of the Black Moon were underway before he made that suggestion, so it clearly had something to do with evas and Lilith anyway. The fact that Yui's 'death' occurs during what is called a contact experiment, the same phrase used for whatever set Adam off, leads me to believe that her being absorbed and seemingly becoming just a bestial intelligence at best already screwed up their actual plan at that point, which is why they needed a new option. How they went from that to "let's become a mindorgy spacegod!" I don't know.
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